Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8124to8173 Page 60 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8124 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: The Quantum Kite Hypothesis is no Pop Analogy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8125 From: dave santos Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Planetary Scale Kinetic Grids (reply to DaveL)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8126 From: Rod Read Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Macroscopic Quantum Phenomena (including second-sound, etc.)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8127 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: AirborneWindEnergy group as laboratory towards working schemes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8128 From: dave santos Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Airborne Rope-Driving Hazard (Bird Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8129 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: AWE in international meetings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8130 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Bob's "more realistic methods and solutions"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8131 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: AWE in international meetings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8132 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Three positions open at one company

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8133 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Levopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8134 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Levopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8135 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Levopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8136 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
Subject: Free-Flight Modes (Night-Mode)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8137 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
Subject: Dynamic Snatch-Block Line-Trolly (crossing junctions)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8138 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
Subject: Russian String Railway R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8139 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
Subject: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Tethered VTOL UAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8140 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/5/2012
Subject: Re: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Tethered VTOL UAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8141 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
Subject: More Notes on Airborne Cable Transport (ACT) Tech

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8142 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/6/2012
Subject: Re: Russian String Railway R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8143 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
Subject: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8144 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
Subject: Re: Russian String Railway R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8145 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/6/2012
Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8146 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: Drafting begins of AWE ISO Standards

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8147 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: Intro to Mothrapolis Technology (Airborne Architecture Experiments)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8148 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: Climate Crisis Forcast is now "Worst Case" (UCAR and World Bank)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8149 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: History of AWES Certification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8150 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8151 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8152 From: dave santos Date: 12/8/2012
Subject: Third-party inspection, verification, testing and certification for

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8153 From: Phil Chiocchio Date: 12/8/2012
Subject: Re: Third-party inspection, verification, testing and certification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8154 From: roderickjosephread Date: 12/8/2012
Subject: The Rhino and The Grasshopper, not biomimetics this time

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8155 From: dave santos Date: 12/8/2012
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8156 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 12/9/2012
Subject: ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8157 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/9/2012
Subject: Re: ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8158 From: dave santos Date: 12/9/2012
Subject: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8159 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/9/2012
Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8160 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8161 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8162 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Air Swimmers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8163 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8164 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Unobtanium Kite Covers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8165 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Unobtanium Kite Covers // effective solar-energy converting kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8166 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Steve Edeiken Award

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8167 From: roderickjosephread Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully considered

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8168 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8169 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Unobtanium Kite Covers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8170 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8171 From: weimdad Date: 12/10/2012
Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8172 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/11/2012
Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8173 From: dave santos Date: 12/11/2012
Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8124 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: The Quantum Kite Hypothesis is no Pop Analogy
Actually, I got the impression that you had been shot down by your own references.  Only a short synopsis for Pierre finally gave me an idea of what you are driving at.  Yes, please present a mathematical analysis starting from those principles.  I'll do mine with simple algebra, and see who gets more useful results.  Any high school grad should be able to use my formula without years of additional study, plugging in numbers for any material, size, wind, etc.  I'm just giving a bit more time for someone to find it in the archives already.  

Although it is the route that DaveS took, one does not need a background in QM to notice that physical motions can be more efficient than electrical conduction, but there are still many choices of material that give the opposite results.  More usefully, I note that a kite always needs a tether, while it is most unusual to find a material that is optimized for specific strength also working well as an electrical conductor.  Carbon nanotubes will be interesting to watch for this combination, though.  

DaveB sent in a comment that may have been in response to my query about who has seen results from the QM approach.  It used the words "wave" and "four-dimensional" and linked to an unlabelled illustration that might have looked most at home in a quilt show.  I don't think anyone could build on that.

At this rate, it seems quite unlikely that a lifetime of patience on this list will provide an understanding of QM that equals the results of getting a degree in it.

Bob Stuart

On 4-Dec-12, at 1:03 PM, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8125 From: dave santos Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Planetary Scale Kinetic Grids (reply to DaveL)
DaveL,

You ask- "might you conclude that the national "electrical power grid" would be more efficient if replaced by pulling-on-lines or using V-belts strung across the nation…if not, then why?…if so, then how-much better?"

Let me review KiteLab Group thinking on this topic-

Select legacy powerplants (and their trunk lines) are seen as potential kite hybrids. No other AWES circle sees the existing grid this way, but only design for new generators with new trunk lines. As a case example, some of us see the feasibilty to directly drive the Three Gorges Hydropower Dam to solve its water supply shortfall.

Upper Wind is a diffuse kinetic force. Pulling on membranes and lines seems unbeatable for megascale transmission of the power down to the surface. Existing grids obviously are not suited for this, they are not aircraft.

In the long term, planetary scale airborne lattice work can be locally excited by wind and transfer momentum to surrounding regions. How far such transmission would prove economically superior is unknown, and requires study.

It is clear that one could design a Rube Goldberg utopia to work on kinetic energy. Wiring a house is definitely more practical at the moment. It is fun to imagine a megascale AWES maintained over a population where power service comes from above in the form a  pumping line to the house. Folks should laugh at novel funny ideas rather than complain.

Cablecar routes can run several miles, cableways, tens-of-miles; without modern materials and methods. We still vitally depend on tensile kinetic transfer in daily life, and the list of good examples just grow over time (a train is a long pulled line, a bike chain is better than a copper wire). Megascale AWES to power the world will just be part of this historic trend in kinetic power transfer, based on superpolymers.

Its essential to do direct testing to validate the amazing power transmission potential of our modern ropes, as calculated by serious thinkers like Bolonkin. Such conformation silences those poor souls unconvinced by abstract predictions.

"How much better" could the world be with airborne kinetics as a fundamental technological basis for abundant AWE? It might be the key difference between sustaining an Earthly Paradise or catastrophic collapse of planetary ecosystems and civilization.

If the global crisis and kinetic kite power conjectures are true, lets hope enough folks understand them soon enough to act effectively,

daveS

"As the danger grows, so grows the saving power."

Hiedegger
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8126 From: Rod Read Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Macroscopic Quantum Phenomena (including second-sound, etc.)
I guess the "Why?" not national v belt power transmission, 
is mostly down to the ability to abstract the potential of electrical energy from ground reference.

A bird can happily sit on it.

The kinetic frame of reference of 100mph rope is unlikely to be matched by much that touches it.

I hate rope burns, I really hate electric shocks. 
Those pesky birds have one up on us again dammit!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8127 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: AirborneWindEnergy group as laboratory towards working schemes
Thanks Pierre,
AWEIA remains ever ready and most willing to do all that is required on all occasions and at all times in the interest of any and all.
Resource Constraints however remain a collective challenge for which I here solicit freewill contributions of all according to our differing abilities in cash,materials/products,skills and time.
Thanks for all such sacrifices.
Further lifts.
John Adeoye Oyebanji
CEO, Hardensoft International Limited
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
From: "Pierre Benhaiem" <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:40:19 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] AirborneWindEnergy group as laboratory towards working schemes

 

There are perhaps good schemes in KiteLab,Public Kite Power Research, FlygenKite,Selsams and others.

Our AWEgroup should work with more (informal) organization to make effective some non existing schemes in constitued companies:arch on ring (KL and PKPR);ram wing flygen (FlygenKite) etc.

When discussions on forum are not enough to resolve some problems, AWEIA can make a call for sponsors (investors for companies) to pay some elements.

My idea is AWE is far of commercialization,so ponctual operation without a status of company (for me at least) can be a useful mean to achieve some scheme as complete prototype.

For example:I need software,mechanic,electric elements to complete the ram wing flygen;following call for sponsors;following (or vice versa) estimate from engineers,then building. 

PierreB 

http://flygenkite.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8128 From: dave santos Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Airborne Rope-Driving Hazard (Bird Case)
Roddy,

Its quite true that fast highly loaded driven ropes are inherently dangerous, but likely not much of a bird threat. Such lines dramatically seethe and writhe with menacing power. Its hard to imagine a bird would try and land on one in normal circumstances (bird not drunk). Most birds are not attracted to near-vertical perches anyway. Birds understand the Banshee keening on the line, and avoid it.

There are exceptions, like bird migrations in bad weather, where moving lines might need conspicuity markings, lights, whistles, etc.. Someday a smart array might even pause for a bird risk event.

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8129 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: AWE in international meetings
We invite robust disclosure of the historical international meetings that have involved AWES. 
This topic thread is an invitation to bring forward meetings of the past, even decades past. 
It is easier to begin at the near present, as such is fresh in minds. However, the meetings that
occurred that are not so fresh, maybe even a bit hard to find, are game for this topic thread. 

We begin with a careful paper by Pierre Benhaïem for our community's main dynamically growing reference book Airborne Wind Energy 
that we build daily online free for the world where the best of scientists, engineers, technicians, workers, students, and stakeholders broadly are designing and developing the world's era of tethered aviation including kite energy systems of various purpose.  Papers in our tech forum are open for peer critique; it is easy to make corrections, extend ideas, bolster by added remarks and studies.    Upper WindPower welcomes your short or long papers for publication online.

 http://energykitesystems.net/PierreBenhaiem/AWEinTheInternationalMeetings.pdf
 Airborne Wind Energy in international meetings,  12/01/ 2012
by Pierre Benhaïem


============================
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8130 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: Bob's "more realistic methods and solutions"
Thanks, Roderick.
I have been at the fore-front of AWE marketing efforts in different application areas ranging from farm irrigation to Tourism.
Local demonstrations is a recurring request.
HardenSoft International looks to facilitating sales of market-ready AWE Solutions globally beginning from our own 'Jerusalem'.
Upwards,
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji
CEO, Hardensoft International Limited
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
From: Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:58:16 +0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Bob's "more realistic methods and solutions"

 

It's funny,

We're all desperate for some sort of kite power future.
It's so tangible in our engineering experience. We see the need & we know ways to fix it.
Funnier because, 
It's a sociable endeavour. We're off saving the world for goodness sake. How exciting is that!?
But keep perspective. Every superhero / cult leader / great mind, has it's weakness.

Each one of us is a super analysis machine permanently asking, "What's the most important question for me to answer right now?" Yet, we can't answer with certainty because, Not one of us has all of the data. That's why this shared technological forum is of utmost importance to us.

With our shared technological knowledge, we are achieving designs of a communal constructivist experience. Evolutionary picks of the best existing ideas already happen.

Yet even with the best technology we can go awry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpIxZiBpGU0 The key point in this video being at the end, There's not one person alive who has the 3 elements needed for his enterprise success.. the designer, the marketer and the money expert. 

Today, I'll ask Western Isles Enterprise for help incorporating a research company with a local friend. So that I can bring something to Martin Meteyard of Cooperative Development Scotland. Martin has offered to help with co-operative legal structures advice.
 if you and your colleagues could just put down (even on one or two sides of A4) the main things you would want such a co-operative to be doing and how you would want it to work, then we could start thinking about how to structure it legally.

Between us we have some very capable tech. Lets hope we can bash out the means to structure projects, financing, marketing, and group organisation.

It's true that the pure discovery for most of our current forum membership is our grestest joy, but  bringing that discovery tangibly to the globe, is a huge team mission.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8131 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/4/2012
Subject: Re: AWE in international meetings
Attachments :


    In word allowing easier additions.

     

    PierreB



    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8132 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
    Subject: Three positions open at one company
    Posted line item at   Jobs in AWES
    Jobs and Opportunities
    are three positions by one company. 

    Please have your AWES team have someone assigned to posting jobs and opportunities. 
    Jobs@UpperWindPower.com 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8133 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
    Subject: Re: Levopters
    1. Sailboats of the Skies       Hank DeBey     Discuss.        [ FFAWE club]
    2. Wind Powered Aircraft - The Concept & Test Flight     Hank DeBey    [ FFAWE club]
    3. HDB WPA 12072906    Hank DeBey  The Wind-Powered Aircraft Project   [ FFAWE club]    
    Kite systems with resistive set in same media as used by the tether set and wing set may use layered wind (or other media) differentials to result in the whole system traveling in the media (water, air, gas, solar wind, soup, solar wind, etc. ).     Woglom described "fugitive parakites" in late 1800s.    

    A primitive wind-powered kite system with just two wing sets tethered is found in paragliders in sport hang gliding where the aerodynamic pilot pod resists as anchor the upper wing. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8134 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 12/4/2012
    Subject: Re: Levopters
    Opportunities exist in the Sub-Saharan Africa Oil & Gas sector for UAV monitoring of product pipelines against vandalism. Any demonstrable AWE solutions?
    John Adeoye Oyebanji
    CEO, Hardensoft International Limited
    President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
    From: "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@gmail.com
    Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 03:09:05 -0000
    To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [AWES] Re: Levopters

     

    1. Sailboats of the Skies       Hank DeBey     Discuss.        [ FFAWE club]
    2. Wind Powered Aircraft - The Concept & Test Flight     Hank DeBey    [ FFAWE club]
    3. HDB WPA 12072906    Hank DeBey  The Wind-Powered Aircraft Project   [ FFAWE club]    
    Kite systems with resistive set in same media as used by the tether set and wing set may use layered wind (or other media) differentials to result in the whole system traveling in the media (water, air, gas, solar wind, soup, solar wind, etc. ).     Woglom described "fugitive parakites" in late 1800s.    

    A primitive wind-powered kite system with just two wing sets tethered is found in paragliders in sport hang gliding where the aerodynamic pilot pod resists as anchor the upper wing. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8135 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/4/2012
    Subject: Re: Levopters
    DeBey "levopter" art.   http://windpoweredaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/DALCS-sailboat-comparison-levopter-12072101.png 
    ...going with the wind of the upper wing.     

    Maybe send a series of units flying over pipelines and capture the at the far end for recycle?  
    Tacking may occur. 
    JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8136 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
    Subject: Free-Flight Modes (Night-Mode)
    Nice to see ongoing work on Free-Flight by LeBey with his Levopter Project

    At night, when conditions are mild and skies are clear, a calm cool surface layer commonly forms (temperature inversion) which squeezes light prevailing breezes up to form a velocity-enhanced Low Level Jet layer. This is a favored situation for AWE (as already described), but is also ideal for stable reliable Free-Flight with a simple two-kite system. Sky sailing along the steep night wind gradient allows a shorter tether, which favors faster travel, including into the wind. In some regions and seasons these great FF conditions can persist for months.

    Launch the higher kite up before sunset to where the LLJ will form, ahead of the surface calm. After dark, as the inversion forms, launch the attached lower kite as well. With the upper kite in the LLJ layer, and the lower kite opposed in still air, FF the rest of the night and into the morning.

    ----------------------

    Notes- DeBey's Levopter should be filed with Lorenzo's Flying Ship. FF gondolas need wheeled landing gear. Daytime wind gradient is less distinct, and more chaotic. FF by day involves more vertical convective flows. Terrain induced gradients can be very structured. A long crosswind valley or mountain ridge could be ideal for testing. Night mode is best by full moon.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8137 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
    Subject: Dynamic Snatch-Block Line-Trolly (crossing junctions)
    An open problem for high-speed airborne trolley cableways is how to cross line junctions while keeping a secure rolling hold on the supporting guideline. Existing approximations known to us do not guarantee hold in high speed dynamics.

    A snatch block is a pulley designed to be clipped or hooked onto a working line (as opposed to a closed pulley through which the line must be threaded onto). 

    In principle a line or wheel of optimized snatchblocks can unclip and reclip at high speed across a line junction, with redundant working reliability. The design should allow local passive failure to clip, curve deviations. and a backup means of recovery if the line is ever lost.

    This mechanism concept enables uninterrupted high-speed travel along a long cable suspended from above by lifting kites. Its a nice doable experiment by cheap simple means.


    coolIP
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8138 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
    Subject: Russian String Railway R&D
    This concept barely suggests what might be better done far higher with "airborne slackrope" trains like AlexB proposes. 

    The primary String Railway website-

    http://www.alternatetransport.com/index.html

    Gismag coverage with comments-

    http://www.gizmag.com/unitsky-string-transport-rail-suspended/15300/
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8139 From: dave santos Date: 12/5/2012
    Subject: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Tethered VTOL UAS
    December 9, 2010

    "IAI plans to develop a wide range of aerial vehicles, configured for VTOL, high speed, tethered (kite-like platforms that can disconnect the tether and hover for extended period),"

    Scroll down just past halfway on the page-

    http://www.defence-update.net/wordpress/topics/1_aerospace
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8140 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/5/2012
    Subject: Re: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Tethered VTOL UAS
    My first guess from the incomplete description in that clip is that the sentence was regarding
    a quadcopter that could be powered under tether (thus allowing the writer to say "kite-like" ... without using kiting principle; and such might have thus been related to what is found on a different file regarding ETOP (electric tethered observation platform) which is kin to the Sky Windpower tease with the SWP WATTS. 
    Israel Aerospace Industries   and .
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8141 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
    Subject: More Notes on Airborne Cable Transport (ACT) Tech
    Some of this is review for new Forum folks, but showing greater clarity and understanding by our AWES circle. The time is near for a fresh burst of tangible experimental progress-

    ------------------Notes--------------------------

    Airborne Cable Transportion (ACT) already exists in modest versions. An ancient trick is to let a "messenger" sail ride up a kite line. Modern toy messengers cycle back and forth by a folding-sail flip-flop mechanism; a "passive control" AWES cycle. Kite hobbyists have worked out elaborate line-carriage affairs for photography and "candy drops". Its a fairly easy DIY technology that continues to develop. KiteLab Ilwaco has done dozens of small ACT experiments to refine methods. Helicopters have well-validated airborne winch-based airborne lifting in diverse pick-and-place roles. 

    The cost-performance success of fixed cableways suggest the potential for ACT to do incredible applications at reasonable cost. This page is a good survey point of fixed cable transport-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_transport


    Airborne cableways will be generally more dynamic and often less able to maintain stable tension compared to fixed versions. Our "string rails" will commonly operate in swinging low-tension modes. The dynamic nature of tethered flight offers new opportunities with the challenges.

    Megascale AWES need ACT as the " freight elevator" to carry maintenance workers and parts up and down the vast arrays (see shipwreck rescue schemes with kites). Long distance high speed ACT is more speculative, but quite easy compared to the most extreme ACT concept to be taken seriously- the Space Elevator. Mothrapolis will have a "string rail" link, as a flying dumbwaiter.

    Major ACT architectures include fixed line, moving loop, and combinations of fixed and moving. Carriages are fixed or detachable in endless combinations. Some will be winged aircraft. Some will operate from shock-absorbing stand-off tethers from a long catenary-series line-path.

    Free-Flight levopters will also apply many of these methods in the most dynamic cases of all. Is cool to imagine free-flight flocks of levopter ships freely trading payloads. Nayies have suggestive cableway systems to exchange cargos between ships underway.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8142 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/6/2012
    Subject: Re: Russian String Railway R&D
    Thanks.  I added this comment:

    This is a series of suspension bridges, a longer version of the Oakland Bay Bridge.  The shape of those suspension cables is the efficient shape for such supports.  The straight shape is impossible, with gravity around.  Only a suspended roadway can eliminate the sharp peaks that would throw off any rapid vehicle.  That was the key to wide use of such bridges, and they are still no good for concentrated loads like trains.  

    See also the comment on the problems of waves developing in the cable.

    Bob Stuart

    On 5-Dec-12, at 3:40 PM, dave santos wrote:
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8143 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
    Subject: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee
    Large scale AWES will be a major energy aviation technology with a critical need to meet the highest standards of safety and integrity. The ISO standards process represents a tradition of excellence in voluntary standards development. ISO standards are created by volunteer experts and applied by independent inspection, testing, and certification organizations (like German TUVs). The process begins with the creation of an ISO Technical Committee in a specific field . These bodies work openly and cooperatively to develop the standards needed.

    This message is to announce an open provisional ISO AWES Technical Committee on this Forum to begin study of the standards needed in our field related to safety, business practices, tested performance, environmental impacts, and so on. Such standards help fill the gap between the world of strict government regulation (like FAA FARs) and the current grey market of fly-by-night AWE ventures based on over-optimistic claims. Competitive compliance with tough AWES ISO standards will give investors confidence that our best-practices are in effect.

    Lets begin with a general needs assessment of the varied standards that might be helpful. Reply to this Forum thread, or send ideas off-Forum to me or JoeF for compilation. There are key existing standards to adapt for application, and there are specialized standards, unique to AWES, for us to identify and define. A some point the provisional AWES Technical Committee will wrap up its preliminary work and give way to a formally recognized organ of the ISO-

    http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards_development.htm
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8144 From: dave santos Date: 12/6/2012
    Subject: Re: Russian String Railway R&D
    Bob,

    This is not the first or last time we mine a marginal idea for AWES inspiration (like space elevators, say). In some cases we even find solutions that eluded the pioneers. While this particular wavy string railway track looks to be at a speed disadvantage with short spans so low to the ground, hopefully its another story for vast catenary line spans in airspace. Bumpiness on a scale of kilometers is perhaps tolerable at decent speeds.

    Of course there are always the design options of rocker arms, spring/dampers, and active suspensions for bumpy tracks. Train cars and Mars Rovers run on rockers. Modern cableways use a sheave train on rockers to bump-bump-bump-bump payloads over mast points. Northrup-Grumman once proposed high speed cable cars as wing-in-ground-effect-vehicles. We know we can tow winged payloads on bungee leads for a smoothed ride across catenary boundaries. Lets also keep the line and pulley whipple-tree in mind as our megascale tensile "rocker arm" suspension method,

    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8145 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/6/2012
    Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8146 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: Drafting begins of AWE ISO Standards
    Thanks JoeF, for setting up the online archive format for open provisional ISO Technical Committee recommendations. 

    Below is an preliminary outline of AWES standards categories for us to develop. Guido is copied this so he can coordinate with the NTS TUV ISO track. This is a specific effort to address his complaint that not enough is publicly known about private NTS AWE TUV ISO work for outsiders to draw sound conclusions. Open AWE is the proper venue to lead open voluntary standards development to supercede isolated private efforts.

    AWE may best fall within the purview of ISO (Standard Catalog) Aircraft and Space Vehicle Engineering Techincial Committee 49. This means the AWES TC would be a Subcommittee of TC49. The draft standards list below is a mix of existing and new standards to cross-reference, hence the ISO numbering scheme is not yet applied. Specific provisional AWES Standards can eventually begin numbering from 49.2xx (well ahead of existing numbering). 

    ================================

    Existing Applicable TC49.xxx Standards

    GSA Code-of-Conduct- AWE as a geophysical engineering profession.

    FAA FARs  (regulatory standards track regarding shared airspace)

            Conspicuity Standard for AWES

            Crashworthyness for AWES

            Breakaway Safety for AWES

    Insurability

            Aviation Insurance

            General Liability

    Civil Codes for Towers (a mix of FAA, Civil Engineering, and NIMBY factors)

            Soil Engineering for Anchors

    AWE Airframe Standards

            Standards for Rope Cables

            Standards for Membranes (UV, flapping wear, markings)

            Standards for Composite Structures

    Worker Safety

             Surface working conditions

             Industrial Climbing Standards

             Fatigue (Session and weekly hours, night operations, breaks, etc.)

    Efficiency Standards for Energy

             Rated-Power Test Standards

                    Power-to-Weight Aloft

    Environmental Impacts

            Airspace and Land Foot-Print Efficiency

            Wildlife (especially birds and bats)

            Earthwork Disturbance Impact

            Landscape Impact

            Embodied Materials Impact (quantites, toxicity, etc.)

    Operations Standards

           Pilot, VO, and Technician Qualifications

           Meteorological Standard

    Decommissioning Standards

           Financing Guarantees

    Social Standards

           Fair Trade,  Fair Labor, and Stakeholder Inclusion Standards

           Militarization Moratorium Compliance

           Targeted Energy Excise Taxes (Tax District social welfare spending (educational, health, environment)
             
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8147 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: Intro to Mothrapolis Technology (Airborne Architecture Experiments)
    Starting in 2013, "Mothrapolis" is to be a true airborne laboratory for living-in-the-sky. The experiments build on the essential aeronautical bulk lifting tech demonstrated last summer as Mothra1. Fall safety from a kite platform had been a major barrier, but compelling solutions are now identified (esp. Fall Tent).

    The real-life experiment begins as a concept village toward a new type of airborne urbanism. The architectural layout is a small central public area surrounded by various smaller quarters in the wings and overlooking the "plaza"*. A 5m high staircase "stairway to heaven" will be featured during early low flights. WECS would be located out of the way just below and behind the residence zone.

    Every basic human need is being provided in redesigned ultralight form (see background below). There will be rain/wind-sheltered areas, lighting and power supply for personal appliances, and string and wicker furniture, including hammocks, storage and table areas. The kitchen will have a solar cooker and rocket stove. The first toilet will be a humanure bucket on a hoist. Many other livability features will be tested.

    * Flying Plaza Rotterdam is a parallel experiment in Airborne Architecture, also due to debut in 2013.


    ------------ background to Motrapolis DIY Ultralight Gear tech --------------------

    Several of us now working in open AWE, particularly those based from Austin, Texas, have long experience in DIY ultralight nomadics. Ed Sapir of Util and Pete Murray (about to get his ME) are key figures in both worlds.

    The antecedent pattern language for the DIY systems developed over many years, in Austin* and on the road, by a nomadic Bike Circus movement that first emerged in the late '90s, and has now ranged around the world. All the essentials of a comfortable camping lifestyle based on DIY HPV were adapted and refined from slavaged bike parts and scrap materials. Even when authorities confiscate our "street art" vehicles, we Nomads learned to self-reequip (into a higher tech cycle, even) within a day or two. We improvised suspended treehouse webs (even under a New York City bridge) with all the features of "home".

    Bike Nomad skills helped me team with Spanish-speaking Gypsies and radical hipsters to clear Amsterdam in just two days on a DIY cargo bike cobbled from salvage, to travel by human power to the Leuven AWE conference in just three days, visiting working Dutch Windmills along the way.

    * Cyclowns, Austin Bikes-not-Bombs, Rhizome Collective, BioSquat, and Yellow Bike.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8148 From: dave santos Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: Climate Crisis Forcast is now "Worst Case" (UCAR and World Bank)
    Of all major technologies nearing TRL9, only Kite Energy seems economic and scalable enough to reverse atmospheric CO2 increase without a general ecological and social collapse. Kites also offer powerful geoengineered mitigation options. Prepare for an explosive AWES R&D push once these ideas reach critical mass.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8149 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: History of AWES Certification

    Snapshot of new page.  Information to expand the history will be welcome;
     post in this thread or email direct to the editor: 
    ==================================================


    Home          Your notes are welcome: Editor@UpperWindpower.com             Most recent edit:Friday December 07, 2012

    History of AWES Certification
    Distinguish between standards and certification to certain standards.
    • As of 7 December 2012, we have no information of any third-party certifying agent certifying any AWES to any particular standards.
    •  
     

    A B C D E F G H I J K L M NO P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
    Let us know you and your interests.
    News, notes, documents, files:  Editor@UpperWindpower.com
    ~~Kite Energy Community~~
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8150 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps
    Apparently there is some substantial progress in very-low-density graphene 3D structures:
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8151 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/7/2012
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8152 From: dave santos Date: 12/8/2012
    Subject: Third-party inspection, verification, testing and certification for
    We have known for years that academia plays a vital early role in third-party validation of novel theories and experimental technologies. But as the pioneering R&D phase passes, and actual products are offered, technical inspection associations take on the role of mature third-party validation. Safety assurance is the primary driver, with quality assurance a closely related effort. 

    It was insurance markets that spurred the emergence of the modern technical inspection world. Underwriters needed sound liability assessment to price insurance profitably. Manufacturers needed the same process to secure the lowest possible insurance rates. 

    Today we see many professional inspection bodies working within a vast framework of general and specialized inspection standards. They depend on the same sort of trust that professional accounting and legal firms maintain. We are even seeing voluntary technical standards, like for carbon emissions, fill vacuums created by government political inaction.

    Formal AWES standards do not exist. Any certification claimed by a current AWE venture is partial, not comprehensive. As we now begin drafting our specialized voluntary safety, reliability, and performance standards, we are interacting with top technical inspection associations. An open question is which of them might step up boldly to be the leader in our sector. Most of the big firms have lots of cash which could be applied to a comparative AWES testing program. We probably cannot expect them to directly fund AWES R&D, but many could reasonably cover their own early verification testing costs, as a strategic due-diligence investment. 

    The AWE Basket Investment Fund can benefit from independent third-party inspection association Participation to give its investment vetting process credibility. This helps definitively answer DaveL's question of how major AWE investment can be equitably distributed only to worthy players. We first need a working standard to test to, so that is a key current focus.


    --------------------- sample list of technical inspection associations ------------------

    Underwriters Laboratories; Illinois, USA, historical Electrical Standards focus

    SGS S.A. (formerly Société Générale de Surveillance); Geneva, Switzerland 

    Bureau Veritas; Antwerp, Blegium

    Intertek, London, UK, Textiles a strong focus

    TÜVs- TÜV NORD Group, TÜV SÜD Group, TÜV SÜD America, TÜV SÜD Iberia (Spain), TÜV Rheinland Group: These are Technical Inspection Associations.
       
    Germanischer Lloyd (GL); Hanover, Germany; Maritime Classification Society, Energy is special area for them.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8153 From: Phil Chiocchio Date: 12/8/2012
    Subject: Re: Third-party inspection, verification, testing and certification
    Beware of getting locked into too many restrictions before the really good AWE answers appear.  I operated a recreational business with a few injuries and then the legal world was allowed to advertise on TV with "Have You Been Injured."  I was soon sued out of business as the insurance companies would no longer cover us.  It would be nice to see some standards for safety and quality of materials as a guideline for development but from what I have seen, most of the current AWE concepts will never survive the chaos of real weather conditions and that means they will be crashing down on someone's uninsured parade.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8154 From: roderickjosephread Date: 12/8/2012
    Subject: The Rhino and The Grasshopper, not biomimetics this time
    I've bought Rhino 5.0 3d software lately. It's Amazing for surface design.
    I am now starting with Grasshopper a visual parametric explicit programming language for 3d...

    Might not mean much ... anyway if you want a really good image of what a megascale aerogel wing flexing may look like... http://youtu.be/XZqgqt0Jc28 

    Just build it in tension then we're good to go.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8155 From: dave santos Date: 12/8/2012
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel (MSKA) Apps

    This microscale graphene aerogel layer shown in the lab is another scale-structure analogy to add to that of prepared-specimen collagen and cellulose lattices. The use of ice crystals recalls the Ice-9 frozen sky joke. We have defined Megascale in AWE as km scale, so our hand assembled lattices are far larger and much less dense (sparser) than our micro models.

    At the moment, Mega-Scale Kite Aerogel is not limited by lack of graphene "unobtainium" *, or even the (wonderful) kitelines and fabrics available. Cheap mass-market ropes and tarps actually give far better power-to-capital-cost performance at present. Pioneering MSKA engineering-science at the km scale is best done on a "shoestring" budget.  A child can make and fly conceptually advanced megascale structure in the sky.

    The urgent limitations to MSKA development are a lack of grand imagination and mastery of the simple means (flying strings, rags, and bits of stick).


    * Dave Culp's usage for innovation stalled by unobtainable supply. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8156 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 12/9/2012
    Subject: ROI and lifetime

    By seeing some informations,some numbers appear as lifetime:roughly 500 h for paragliders (cloth wings), 20 times more for gliders (rigid wings, autogyros...), yet 10 times more for conventional wind turbines.                How can AWE compete with wind turbines regarding lifetime and resulted ROI?It is true replacing soft wings can be considered as maintenance for existing wind turbines. 

    PierreB

    http://flygenkite.com

    http://wheelwind.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8157 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/9/2012
    Subject: Re: ROI and lifetime
    We can use the same improvements that they use on conventional turbines, including regular leading-edge maintenance.  For soft wings, we can eschew compact packing and use the fabric developed for inflated buildings.  There's a lot of development work to do.  The conventional industry now has sub-contractors for tightening bolts.  There's a lot of know-how involved in keeping costs down.  

    Bob Stuart

    On 9-Dec-12, at 1:58 PM, Pierre Benhaiem wrote:
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8158 From: dave santos Date: 12/9/2012
    Subject: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime
    Pierre,

    This is a review and update of an extensive wing lifetime discussion from past years that you may have missed key parts of. It will help new list members judge just how capable modern soft wings are, despite public misconceptions.

    The obsolete suggested 500hr life for paragliders in high UV use never did apply to AWE, since its a super-conservative human flight-safety standard. At 500hrs a well cared for paraglider is almost "good as new". The best way to prove this is to fly a sport parafoil for five hundred hours, which is about how long it takes to develop expert skills. Its essential for all serious AWE developers to fly many hours to "know" from direct experience, not just study and calculation. I have been unable to wear out any of my kites over several thousand flight hours (testing almost every day). Even cheap toy kites just keep on flying with minor repair. Some of tests have run months (hung from trees) with only the slightest deterioration. 

    We have (top kite expert) Peter Lynn's finding of modern kite cloth surviving background-color:transparent;">
    On the other hand, no current rigid wing AWES is likely to avoid crashing for even 100hrs, much less survive for years to payback. The reliability needed to complete a long composite airframe payback may take decades.

    As for how AWE developers intend to beat wind tower lifespans, first of all, this is not a direct contest. The wind tower has a longer blade life, but is stuck in inferior wind near the surface. AWE has the potential to reach far higher, stronger, more consistent wind with fabric. This superior resource can hopefully be tapped at lower capital cost, a quicker ROI, greater site availability, and so on. Cheap polymer membrane working in better wind promises the fastest payback (earlier ROI) of any wind technology, although rigid AWES foils will find great niche applications. The major performance barrier is not in our materials, which are great and getting better, but in our inventive powers and kite skills mastery,

    daveS


    * Remember that fabric covered airplanes have long had the capability to sit outdoors for 12 years or even more, fly thousands of hours, and still be found flightworthy by fabric testing, thanks to the aluminum pigment UV barrier, and good supporting framework. This is the intermediate fabric case showing long life at reasonable cost and complexity, but not good crash resistance. 

    Also keep in mind that inferior defective fabrics that "look good" for AWES can fail quite easily, and must be carefully avoided.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8159 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/9/2012
    Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime


    DaveS,

     

    The usual value for kitesurf is even less than the 500 hours because of the aggressive marine environment.The usual reason for such low value is greater porosity which involves not only safety regarding human flight-safety standard but also efficiency and precision regarding AWES working under high constraints and forces.

     

    It is also interesting to see again after some experience feedback and evolution of materials.Morever the difference of lifetime between rigid wing and conventional turbine seems also very high,so studies of experimentation are wished to see the incidence of different levels of movements on the wear.

     

    PierreB

     





     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8160 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime
    Pierre,

    We want real lifecycle data, but its scant, so we'll have test to settle specific questions. Who has ever seen a quality kite surfing kite truly wear out (non-repairable)?

    Beginners often damage sport kites with high-speed crashes, whereas experts almost never do. This factor can shorten the life of kite-school (or poorly autopiloted) kites. Easy repairs still require special services or skills most kite surfers lack, so repairable kites get retired. The sport is so new, rapid innovation and fashion drives frequent new purchases. New kites are far better than early versions, due to accumulating design experience. Most kite surfers have several kites, the oldest still usable.  

    AWES is a promising kite lifecycle case if done properly. Instead of beginners "thumping" sport kites into the surface on short lines, expert flying at higher altitude is safer to the kite (less violent surface contact). Even if we use the worst assumption (<500hr avg) to define current soft kite avg lifecycle, that still beats the probable lifespan of a high performance rigid wing flown as an autonomous kite (<50hr avg). 

    Its really sad how so many AWE developers (our friends in many cases) somehow imagined reliable aerobatic autopiloting to be soon practical or affordable. Review of historic UAV reliability progress reveals we are still far from economical and reliable rigid wing kite planes for AWE. All start-up ventures who stick to premature rigidity seem doomed (unless they can hold out for a decade or two).  Maybe we can subsidize rigid wing R&D by the Basket Fund Strategy. 

    Even once perfected, rigid AWES wings are just not megascalable. Soft kites can far out-scale conventional turbines, which is one more reason they might dominate,

    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8161 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime


    DaveS,

     

    I agree potential ROI of soft wing can be higher than rigid _ which weight = conventional blade weight _ with both good materials and good use including soft folding or even no folding (excepted for changement of location),washing to put off salt water and sand,no contact with ground...

     

    We should imagine some simple devices and ways of use allowing higher lifetime.

     

    A lot of fields among them architecture go towards lightness and recyclability with soft materials like sets of plastic bottles,membranes...a possible think tank for AWES.

     

    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8162 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Air Swimmers
    Air Swimmers

    Moving in and around AWES structures for inspection, maintenance, tourism, ... 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8163 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Wing Construction Economics //Re: [AWES] ROI and lifetime
    Pierre,

    Maybe the top AWES secret is to be happy with the cheapest square tarps and be content to recycle them often. The only cheaper material is plastic roll stock, which makes giant kites at 1/100 the unit area cost of quality kite material. Some friends (Beehive Collective) use fabric made from bottles, but its a fairly rare and expensive product.

    Sadly, the AWE community is too small to compete with the world in basic membrane R&D without losing focus on direct design and testing of AWES. We have to use what the world offers us. Natural fibers for kite is exciting to me, but that means even shorter lifecycles and lower performance.

    It occurs to me that we have a good model for fabric lifecycle- our clothes. For example, i used some light nylon cargo shorts for over twenty years in very severe tropical work duty, with sun, abrasion, sweat, and hundreds of wash cycles. They finally did start to wear out, but only after an amazing amount of utility. We could do accelerated testing of cloth materials as a community. Peter Lynn does direct testing, but far more could be done in a group, and the results shared. Still, there are very few kite fabric mysteries, we probably have to live with the established products.

    The major revolution required of us is optimal AWES soft wing design with standard fabrics. The single-skin concept in itself is the biggest advance in advanced wing minimalism, while we wait for graphene...

    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8164 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Unobtanium Kite Covers
    This thread is ever open to description of unobtanium kite covers. 
    Please announce sources that take some described unobtanium kite cover out of the unobtanium family.

    Starting: 
    SGKC
    The SGKC (self-grower kite cover) stays aloft working in AWES. As injury occurs to the material, the material self-grows and heals defects caused by UV, fat igue, stress, particulates, etc.   SGKC obtains traces molecules from air's mix of molecules and humidity and dust for the growing-healing process. That is, SGKC simply abhors being not its original self and has nano smarts enough to regain broken structure. Injury does occur, wear does occur, UV damage does occur, but the SGKC grows back its original microscopic configuration and keeps working for the AWE industry. 

    JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8165 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Unobtanium Kite Covers // effective solar-energy converting kite

    Ultrathin, high-efficiency, broad-band, omni-acceptance, organic solar cells enhanced by plasmonic cavity with subwavelength hole array

    Stephen Y. Chou and Wei Ding

    http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/abstract.cfm?URI=oe-21-101-A60 

    ===========

    Speculation: 

    This direction of materials will play some roles in some kite covers for some AWES of the future. 

    The very kite cover will double as a converter of solar radiation to electricity for use onboard wing set elements, perhaps.

    Joe F
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8166 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Steve Edeiken Award
    Steve Edeiken Award

    Some of the people giving foundation to the unfolding tethered aviation era ... 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8167 From: roderickjosephread Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully considered
    I'm going to re - propose investigation of the benefits of kite energy with Algae.

    Companies including NASA are efficiently growing Algae for energy in clear floating tubes.

    The tubes (akin to the floating structures I have used in the seaborne kite designs) are close to neutrally buoyant.
    And critically heavy in mass, They can be used as a massive floating anchor, or sunk on demand to sink our kite out of the storm.

    Photosyntheses is key to the energy (yes sunlight is less energy dense than wind, but we already use this kind of fuel and it scrubs co2 for a while)
    Carbon is the other part of the energy in the equation.

    Algae growing structures could help save kites from too much wind energy,
    And kite energy structure could help with algae growing too... by lifting translucent  wicked filaments, or filled tubes up into sunlight.

    The power from our standard AWE generators can pump or sail the algae to shore.

    OK just a thought... may not be super viable
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8168 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8169 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Unobtanium Kite Covers
    Of course, the near fruit is to RAD designs that use obtainables well. 
    That seems the stark given, as you well expressed. AWES will ONLY be built with obtainables.
    For RAD, only obtainables are in the warehouse for construction and use.
    And so many interested parties barely know well the obtainables; much work is yet to be done to 
    make obtainable well known.        

    One topic thread for the unobtainables has potential for delectable fruit also. Spin-offs of the effort are several: interest spark, potential partial discoveries, discovery that something first thought unobtainable is really obtainable...thus the invitation to announce supply to knock a description out of the un-  into the obtainable ballpark.  

    In engineering unobtanium comes in two sorts ...that are both with severe challenges, but not without merit-giving potentials: 
    1. The absolute unobtainables.  
    2. The extremely hard-to-obtain material.

    For "1." ... such sets up the thinking cap; perhaps today's description of such an unobtainable is just by a neophyte that has yet to know the obtainableness of a material. Maybe part of the the description of an unobtainium is obtainable.  Maybe part of of a description will spark a fundamental research effort by someone. 

    For "2" ... just when "extremely hard to obtain" become "easy to obtain"  is not known by the describer; but the description will leave open an opportunity for someone ... one day... to announce a supplier for ease; then such item will be ousted from the thread and into the obtanium space. 

    For efficiency of the group forum, I thought keeping unobtaniums into one thread would help, rather than spreading the matter far and wide.  

    I do not want to waste anyone's time; but I do not want to miss learning that arrives when touching the frontiers.  
    The rapid developer will forge ahead with COTS and obtainables. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8170 From: dave santos Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider
    Rod,

    Flown slowly underwater, mothra kites can double as artificial reefs or algae farms. A recent idea of how to maintain water-launchable mega-scale mothras offshore was that managed fish, perhaps in a floating pen, might periodically feed on "kite algae" to keep the submerged structure cleaned for flight above the water. After all, reef fish symbiotically clean algae and barnacles from visiting open-sea species. Keeping ship bottoms clear currently depends on toxic anti-fouling paints.

    There is also the urgent need for fish-friendly slow-trawling of ocean plastic waste, which could be a tow-stage ahead of a towed aquaculture (for fuel even). Its also possible to oxygenate the sea and create fertile cold upwellings on a large scale with sea/sky kites. Ice packs and bergs could be towed.

    The kite principle is a powerful multi-purpose geoengineering method. Perhaps combinations of megascale kite uses result in amazingly synergetic applications,

    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8171 From: weimdad Date: 12/10/2012
    Subject: Re: Algae - and Kite Energy in a form we may not have fully consider
    Its also possible to oxygenate the sea and create fertile cold upwellings on a large scale with sea/sky kites.


    If cold upwellings can be done on a large scale then hurricanes could be turned into tropical storms. Cold water kills hurricanes.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8172 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/11/2012
    Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee
    There will be subcommittees of volunteers helping to write standards for AWES. 
    These works are in infancy draft mode. Interested workers are invited.
    ISO index   |  ISO AWES index  |  ISO AWES Technical Committee  |

    • What subcommittees for forming standards?
      • Traction
        • Cargo-ship traction by kite systems
        • Yacht traction by kite systems
        • Kiteboarding sport
        • Kitebuggying sport
        • Long-distance rail transport of goods and materials by traction kiting
        • Ocean-trash cleaning by kite systems
        •  
      • Flygen electricity production offshore
        • On traveling manned vessels
        • On barges or buoys, dominantly unmanned autonomous
      • Flygen electricity production onshore
      • Land-based generators driven by kite systems
      • Ocean-based generators driven by kite systems
      • Free-flight AWES
        • Kite hang gliders
        • Canopy paragliders
        • Sport RC unmanned
        • Sport manned
        • Transportation, perhaps manned
        • Energy-producing unmanned
      • Cableways by kite systems
        • Local
        • Long-distance
        • Networked aerial lofted highways
        •  
      • Aerial Quarters
        • Unmanned architecture
        • Manned spaces
        •  
      • ??
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8173 From: dave santos Date: 12/11/2012
    Subject: Re: Early Call for Partcipation- ISO AWES Technical Committee
    Joe,

    As a practical matter, following ISO initiative norms as well, there should only be one AWE ISO TC at present, and it can handle or spin-off all the categories you list as the need arises ( "needs" standard). There is no need for formal standards for futuristic categories that have not even reached proof-of-concept. Premature standards can be worse than no standards. There is a very low need for recreational standards during global crisis (general product liability standards are well established in civil law). A voluntary ISO standard is only meaningful if useful.

    My personal ISO focus is to work on a narrow utility-scale AWES airspace and land footprint utilization intensity standard (area/volume by unit energy) so that contending architectures can be fairly rated. This manageably precise focus arises from a concern that many current developmental AWES architectures perform poorly in this key parameter, but policy-makers, investors, and broad stakeholders have no metric by which to judge this. Other than this, the maze of FAA FARs and other civil codes seem to cover most AWES technical standards well-enough,

    daveS