Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                       AWES3945to3994 Page 59 of 79.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3945 From: dave santos Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: WOW Background Information

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3946 From: dave santos Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3947 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3948 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3949 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3950 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3951 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3952 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3953 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3954 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3955 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3956 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3957 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3958 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/16/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3959 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2011
Subject: MegaScale AWE Experimentation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3960 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 8/18/2011
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3961 From: KITE GEN / Ippolito Date: 8/18/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3962 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3963 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3964 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3965 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3966 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3967 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3968 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3969 From: dest6a Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: THE BETZ AREA RATIO...A COMPARISON STANDARD FOR WIND-POWER DEVICES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3970 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3971 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3972 From: harry valentine Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3973 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3974 From: christopher carlin Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3975 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3976 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3977 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3978 From: eugeniosaraceno Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Message from Mr Leonardo Libero

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3979 From: Doug Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3980 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3981 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3982 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3983 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Message from Mr Leonardo Libero

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3984 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: WOW Background Information

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3985 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Anne Quéméré

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3986 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: re: [AWECS] Re: Anne Quéméré

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3987 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Energy suppliers to offer kitricity purchasing?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3988 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Selsam Superturbine(R) on Discovery Channel India

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3989 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Visit from WOW, New York Interns

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3990 From: harry valentine Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3991 From: mmarchitti Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3992 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3993 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3994 From: paolo musumeci Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3945 From: dave santos Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: WOW Background Information
Here is updated info about WOW, the pioneering Italian AWE R&D fund that is incubating WOW America, a globally oriented AWE investment vehicle. Upcoming notices will describe the new US WOW team and its business plan.
 
=================================
 
Summary Statement:

Wind Operations Worldwide S.p.A. (WOW) is an Italian financial holding company, established as a LLC in 2008 and fully Incorporated in 2009. As a start-up, the company raised working capital for the KiteGen® project, a wholly-Italian system for harvesting energy from high altitude winds, now approaching an industrial-scale demo phase. WOW S.p.A, 130 associates strong and growing, is launching WOW America Inc. to fund new and diverse Airborne Wind Energy projects.
 
People:

Founders, advisers, and shareholders include scientists, engineers, professionals in various fields, business firms and public figures, as well as common citizens, all concerned about global energy production, environment protection and the limits to growth; notably:

Ugo Bardi, Chemistry Professor at University of Florence, President of the Italian Chapter of ASPO -- Association for the Study of Peak-Oil, member of "The Oil Drum" Editorial Committee;

Luca Pardi, Ph.D., WOW founder, Chemistry researcher at Italian National Center for Research (CNR), member and former Secretary of the Italian Chapter of ASPO;

Hon. Sergio Stanzani (b.1922), "Dean of WOW", engineer, former General Director of Finmeccanica, former Italian Senator, President of No Peace Without Justice and of the Transnational Nonviolent Radical Party;

Leonardo Libero (b. 1927), journalist and writer, founder and editor in chief of "Solar Review", the first Italian magazine devoted to solar energy issues;

Antonella Spolaor Dentamaro, Deputy Director of the "Nando Peretti Foundation", member of the Executive Board of No Peace Without Justice, a leader in the "International Campaign to Ban Female Genital Mutilation Worldwide";

Pietro Cambi, geologist, engineer, blogger, co-author of "Crisis", a Top-ten Italian blog;

MG Investments, an U.K. business and financial firm;

Retenergie Società Cooperativa, an Italian cooperative company that builds and manages renewable energy power plants.

---------------------------------------------

Members of the WOW Board (Partial):

President: Paolo Musumeci (b. 1971), WOW founder and President of the WOW SpA Board of Directors, graduated in Economics and Banking at the University of Siena in 1997. Agent for the Public Attorney office in Livorno, 1997. Business and tax consultant, a Chartered Accountant since 2003. His experience includes many assignments as Auditor, notably for a 25M€ building company.

Gaetano Dentamaro (b. 1962), WOW founder and member of the WOW SpA Board of Directors, journalist, political activist, is a member of the General Council of the Transnational Nonviolent Radical Party, NGO with consultative status at UN ECOSOC. Special correspondent for Radio Radicale broadcasting network, 1982-1996; former Editor-in-Chief and Publishing Director of No Peace Without Justice, the NGO that promoted the establishment of the International Criminal Court.

Carlo Perassi (b. 1973), WOW founder and member of the WOW SpA Board of Directors, holds a Master degree in Computer Engineering from the Politecnico di Torino where he studied control engineering under Mario Milanese. He has worked as an analyst and developer of Free Software based systems, mainly GNU/Linux system programming and web applications.
 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3946 From: dave santos Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Ganged turbine rotors along a common axis is an old idea. Doug has kept the scheme active on the AWE forum with his SuperTurbine (R), based on torsional power transmission. SkyMills concept begins as a single autogyro rotor modulating tug on one line, but there is no critical barrier to putting may such rotors on one line, boosting power. 
 
The simplest method is to give each rotor its own section of leader line and connect rotors much as an ordinary kite train is built. A bit more complex would be rotors that can thread onto a continuous line and climb or descend as an independent carriage (kite messenger).
 
The topmost element could be an electric helicopter to initiate early launch to altitude and decelerate landing. This may well be a general AWECS launch solution.
 
The Multi Autogyro method offers high operational flexibility. It greatly multiplies the potential power of autogyro-based AWE, while avoiding difficulties of torsional power transmission.
 
coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3947 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Interesting way.But on Sky Mill the tether is several km,and the direction of winds differs according their height.The management of different directions of wind could be difficult,except (?) in the case where only rotors in the same wind direction are working.

PierreB
http://flygenkite.com



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3948 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
At first consideration, such a scheme presents very attractive power-harvesting attributes. That said, my guess is, as far as our SkyMill type application goes, the "devil's in the details" for such a scheme, ie,  the orchestration of passing high tensions along such a chain of tethers will be (if lacking some highly inventive scheme that would allow this occur in a simple reliable operational fashion) fraught with many detail design/operational obstacles.

DaveL




At 1:47 PM -0700 8/14/11, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3949 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
DaveL,
 
Every scheme that has multiple flight "agents" working in a coordinated fashion has added control complexity. SkyWindpower describes a flock of close-flying units, presumably to avoid surface sprawl of widely spaced units. KiteGen also depicts coordinated flight in its stem farm and carousel animations..
 
Fortunately, ganging units along a common line is a less complex way to aggregate power. A misbehaving unit is constrained by all the others, carried along rather than causing mayhem. The model of a tug-o'-war suggests reasonably tame collective dynamics, although one can envision fancier harmonics, like multiple traveling waves pumping the surface work-cell.
 
A basic "long-line" AWE principle seems to be emerging; that lift might as well be harvested all along a kiteline, rather than bypassing a bunch of lift to only get it at some higher altitude.
 
I also see "SkyMill Trains" as a competitive harvesting units under a potentially far larger cross-linked lifter array, for gigawatt scale energy production,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3950 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Dave, are there some links to see these contraptions in action?

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 09:27:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

 
DaveL,
 
Every scheme that has multiple flight "agents" working in a coordinated fashion has added control complexity. SkyWindpower describes a flock of close-flying units, presumably to avoid surface sprawl of widely spaced units. KiteGen also depicts coordinated flight in its stem farm and carousel animations..
 
Fortunately, ganging units along a common line is a less complex way to aggregate power. A misbehaving unit is constrained by all the others, carried along rather than causing mayhem. The model of a tug-o'-war suggests reasonably tame collective dynamics, although one can envision fancier harmonics, like multiple traveling waves pumping the surface work-cell.
 
A basic "long-line" AWE principle seems to be emerging; that lift might as well be harvested all along a kiteline, rather than bypassing a bunch of lift to only get it at some higher altitude.
 
I also see "SkyMill Trains" as a competitive harvesting units under a potentially far larger cross-linked lifter array, for gigawatt scale energy production,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3951 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Pierre,
 
Experience with kite trains shows they gracefully conform to varied wind by altitude. The commonest such condition is the Ekman spiral due to Coriolis effect, but all kinds of windshear would be passively "processed" by the collective array into a coherent output.
 
Its also possible for each autogyro rotor to have considerable freedom of AoA by riding on a partial ball-joint, as a further optimization,
 
daveS

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3952 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Darin,
 
This is not a "contraption" in the Rube Goldberg sense of messy complexity, but a reasonably "clean" modular design.
 
This scheme looks just like Doug's demos of many rotors on a kitestring. The slight visual difference is the line is tugged, not torqued,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3953 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
DaveS,

I am not as concerned about "group stability" (since active control for each rotor is at our disposal) as I am about other "devils in the details". For instance, I am referring to  things like the "Ball-swivel" you refer to, or the launching and retrieval of such a chain of rotors.

DaveL



At 9:37 AM -0700 8/15/11, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3954 From: dave santos Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
DaveL,
 
Lets forget the ball-swivel then, it adds little value.
 
The more fundamental open question is whether its easier (or cheaper, safer, etc.) to launch multiple standalone autogyro units v. launching multiple units along a "pilot-line" for equivalent power.
 
daveS 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3955 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3956 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

Wouldn't a contra-rotating blade arrangement stabilize your airborne generator from precession forces?  

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:36:18 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3957 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Fig. 4. Click through image for full patent applicaition.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3958 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/16/2011
Subject: Re: Multi Autogyro Rotors On One Line
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3959 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2011
Subject: MegaScale AWE Experimentation
MegaScale Engineering is engineering on a grand scale. High-Altitude Wind Energy is naturally megascale, in at least the tether dimension, on a kilometer scale. Arch, mesh, and 3D lattice geometries add spatial dimensions, in this case toward megascale kiting of integrated gigawatt-rated AWECS.

Fundamental experimental AWE at the megascale is actually quite easy and cheap if done by "low-complexity" methods. KiteLab Ilwaco is conducting higher-dimensional megascale testing with sparse "toy" kite structure. In the simplest case a single toy kite can raise two tethers anchored a kilometer apart to form a crude megascale "arch",

A special experiment is planned for WSIKF2011 (happening all this week). In collaboration with Arch Master Ed Jensen, a large arch of over two hundred kites will be raised on extended tethers to over-arch the entire kite festival.

Three basic flight maneuvers will be tested on open beach North of the festival- 1) Cascade launch (often observed, but little studied) from varied points along the grounded arch; 2) spreading and narrowing the anchor distance to power and depower; 3) Progressive luffing of the arch, by weathercocking, to douse. Many operational lessons will be learned.

The next set of tests will crosslink multiple arches into a MacroKite, a "kite of kites" (formerly "MetaKite"), add halyards, and loft various energy harvesting devices, as a farm array.

coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3960 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 8/18/2011
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /WindLift/WindliftNewsletter2011Aug8.pdf
Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description : WindLift newsletter of 8 August 2011

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/WindLift/WindliftNewsletter2011Aug8.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3961 From: KITE GEN / Ippolito Date: 8/18/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
Dear DaveS,
I really appreciate your efforts, but, I'm afraid that what you propose could be quite difficult to be put, with a sufficient quality standard, into practice.
I do agree that a technical advisory board is the key element and, even better, it is mandatory. But do you really think you will ever get, as an advisor, any highly experienced engineering professional for free? I would forget it!

There is no crisis for this kind of professionals. They are the most wanted skills worldwide. The scarcity of this kind of professional skill is incredible, as it is for them very difficult to find a project worth their commitment.

Should any professional of this kind be available, then I think that it would be better for them to just join any AWEC team in the world, including maybe KiteGen, where they could immediately get, apart from salary and consistent benefits, a unique chance to express their creativity in an exciting, advanced and on-going project, like, for instance, our KG Stem, now under construction and reworking.
 
I am afraid that, with your project, you could risk to gather somebody who could just be able to chat on the subject and to spread misinformation and nonsense, due the new, complex and multidisciplinary nature of the projects, and this would really be harmful for the whole AWEC sector.

The same attitude, in my opinion, would be convenient for most of the investors who are in a condition to appreciate the innovation potential of an AWEC project and its potential economic returns. My experience is that investors do are looking forward for sound projects, but, of course, they want to see the real work in progress and to get the evidence of the technical accountability of the development team, in order to get confidence enough as to put any money in the project. Therefore, I think that it would be more convenient for them, instead then looking for one of the many and annoying investment boutiques, to directly contact those who work in the AWEC field and meet the developing teams, maybe including KiteGen one (who, by the way, would welcome them).

Thank you for your attention
Massimo Ippolito
KiteGen
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3962 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Massimo,

I completely agree.

DaveS,

Direct and continual contact between investors and projects managers in AWE is a better thing until real economic existence of AWE.Nothing should be made to cut it.Forget a "global project" which can generate paralysis.Due to the complexity of all elements in AWE ("the devil is in the details" DaveL often says),a good way could be something like:"for a precise element (for example a simulation,for example for tether,for example for a soft kite with high ratio L/D...) I,as project manager,must have n$".The investors can decide where making investments,perhaps towards common elements in different AWE projects.NASA gives a good example for the way by searching on precise elements like materials for example.

Until economic prove from AWE (and after),investors are and become experts themselves. 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3963 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
Dear Massimo and Pierre,
 
Many great engineers already "work for free" to launch our industry, like David Lang and Joe Faust, who have hardly made a penny, yet they work very hard.
 
In some cases its voluntary service, just as doctors and lawyers by tradition do volunteer pro-bono work, for the common good of society. There is also a tradition of excellence in "amateur" fields like Olympic competition, even if money increasingly dominates. In the case of AWE, we may hold a key to planetary survival, so many of us are motivated by an urgent sense of crisis, never-mind pay. Just ask Wayne German, who was a top IT talent at Intel before devoting his life to AWE.
 
There is a grand tradition in American business to work for "sweat equity", postponing compensation pending revenue. In Italian the phrase "apporto di mano d'opera" reflects the idea. WOW America is proceeding to launch on a sweat equity basis, as KiteGen consumed most of the funds of the parent, WOW Italy. Do not mistake this popular effort as "(my) project", but instead as the determined fresh initiative of your formerly close Italian associates, with whom you disagree on so many philosophical grounds.
 
Count yourself as blessed to be able to have paid work for AWE, rather than being forced by your logic to seek other paid work rather than work for free. Lets hope your fatalistic predictions are false,
 
Working for Free,
 
daveS
 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3964 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
DaveS,

I agree with you AWE is also a passion.For the moment all players (including KiteGen) are working by spending their own money since AWE is not yet a commercial activity (exception for Pacific Power Sails and perhaps me in some months*).

PierreB

*According to the French law I can create a company by pursuing my current job but for only two years.After two years I will pursue AWE company (and leave my job) only in case of success:in a first step following sales of a small version of FlygenKite (for it no external investment is needed (?)),then for a project for an automatic system (FlygenKite or another) where external investment is needed.

Note:a complete high-scale AWECS will require many more investments than for all the gathered players including Makani and KiteGen.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3965 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: VisVentis

Discuss VisVentis      

Ideas:

  • Robert, have you considered collaboration with WindLift?   KiteLab Group?
  • Have you considered collaboration with PowerSail?
  • Are you with flygen focus or groundgen focus?  Both?  Compund?
  • Have you considered self-start kite-actuated stalk generation?

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3966 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
What keeps the kites from getting all tangled up with each other?

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:48:56 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] VisVentis

 

Discuss VisVentis      
Ideas:
  • Robert, have you considered collaboration with WindLift?   KiteLab Group?
  • Have you considered collaboration with PowerSail?
  • Are you with flygen focus or groundgen focus?  Both?  Compund?
  • Have you considered self-start kite-actuated stalk generation?

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3967 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
Hello Joe,

Visventis is open to collaborate with anyone interested to do so. We
want to get AWE into the hands of poor people as quickly as possible. We
have a design that we think can do that. I posted to this group earlier
this year to ask if people thought it was novel, or would clash with
existing programs, and a few said they thought it was new. Ideas have
progressed since then and a modified design will be put on the website
soon.

We are groundgen focused for now because we believe manually piloted
systems can generate much cheaper energy that way. Cost of energy is
everything. I have already mentioned on this group that I think the
future lies with a hybrid. Just enough flygen to get the kite into the
air and under strict control at all times, the rest groundgen.

The term 'stalk generation' could cover a number of concepts. I do not
know of any that would give us cost benefits.

We secured a place to work last month and have been collecting materials
to build the first prototype. Wherever possible we are trying to use
common materials cheaply available in poor countries, so that slows
progress a bit. Our system will be as self-build as possible to keep
costs down.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3968 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
DaveS,

Difficult exigences of "sweat equity basis" can block the development of AWE.Against another possibility would be the development of KiteLab towards its own concepts like passive-control or pilot-kite where important expected and unexpected possibilities on market can exist,but also towards a set of existing schemes (even if you dislike some schemes),so towards a real Laboratory (that with...investments).

Such a Laboratory could be an international platform allowing to investors a quick knowledge of main schemes facilitating further contacts with teams,or the development of your own realizations.Investments should allow adding a first element of simulations and calculations with enough approximation.

Such a Laboratory could allow an illustrating classification of schemes.

PierreB



 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3969 From: dest6a Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: THE BETZ AREA RATIO...A COMPARISON STANDARD FOR WIND-POWER DEVICES

The Betz Area Ratio  (see the link to the pdf file) is intended to put forward a performance standard which can be used to rate wind-power devices such as AWECS.  It is based upon the upper limit of power attainable from the most commonly used wind-power device...the axial-flow wind turbine.  The method calculates the rotor area of a Betz-limited air turbine required to generate the same power as that of the system under consideration.  Then, the ratio of that area to a characteristic area of the system under consideration is taken to be the Betz area ratio.

Some interpretation may be required to establish the characteristic area of the system.  It would be straight forward to use the wing area if the air vehicle(s) in a kite-power system possessed more or less flat, planar wings which undergo unidirectional motion, such as the moving-root kite system proposed in Project Sea Tree.  Analysis of that system indicates Betz area ratios well in excess of 200.

But, if a curved flexible wing is used, one might use the projection of the wing area onto a plane perpendicular to the tether.  With the use of multiple tethers, one would use the projection of the wing area onto a plane perpendicular to the sum of the tether tension vectors.  In the case of a tethered autogyro, one might use the area swept out by the rotor blades, as would be the case for a wind turbine.  But, when the wing sweeps out a circular arc with radius much larger than the wing span, it might make more sense to use the wing area rather than the area of the circle being swept out.

It is the intent of this comparative standard to reduce or eliminate the ambiguity of differences in wing area and wind velocity when comparing the performances of different wind-power systems.

Dennis

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3970 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
Pierre,
 
You are right, sweat equity is a problematic basis for business, the need for it "can block development", and it is a Darwinian cruelty. Sweat equity is a standard tool in American cut-thoat capitalism. In this system weak teams get major early funding from foolish investors, but rather than pool equitably it in the wider merit community, they spend in high burn-rate management and vanity engineering. They promptly fail when funding dries up. Meanwhile, survivors of capital starvation gradually succeed by lowest possible cost delivering highest ROI. Paradoxically, they become capital winners.
 
The cool thing is that the winners win because they never needed as much money as the losers demanded. Winners are more passionate than greedy,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3971 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
I think that the really passionate inventors are too disinterested in money to relate to the Venture Capital people.  I remember the first one I had contact with dismissing my request  as being too small to bother with.  On The Dragon's Den show, one young guy who did get funding had to affirm his own hopes to get rich off the deal in order to get it.  Strange dynamic for the efficiency buff.  The investors later lost, too.

Bob  Stuart 

On 19-Aug-11, at 8:16 PM, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3972 From: harry valentine Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Speed of Kite-towed ships
All,
 
 
Would any of you know the approximate sailing speeds of kite-towed ships?
 
 
Thanks,
 
Harry
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3973 From: dave santos Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Harry,
 
In general, the slower the cruising speed of a ship the more helpful a kite system is. Ships operate generally in a range of 15 to 25 knots. I remember this issue well from KiteShip R&D; it was greatly welcomed when ship operators reduced speeds faced with rising fuel prices, as the kites available flight envelope increased. Higher winds help fast downwind sailing. KiteShip liked pulling barges as a demo. By this same logic SkySails system was recently matched to pull a slow bulk materials freighter (Cargil) around the Mediterranean.
 
On the other hand, kite sailing now holds absolute speed sailing records, over 50 knots,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3974 From: christopher carlin Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
This is a guess but I'd say over 10 knots if a significant commercial vessel - coast wise trader of a couple thousand tons - not over 20. A good design number would probably be between 12 and 16. Another way to look at this is that hull speed on a vessel is roughly 1.3xsqrt(waterlinelength). Drag rise due to wave drag gets excessive at .75 of hull speed. So a 100 foot or even a 200 foot vessel is unlikely to operate much over 10 knots. A typical 400 foot 5000 ton ship will operate at 16 knots with about 5000 shp. If you want to go faster you have to get lots bigger. Say 1000 feet.

Hope this helps
Chris 
On Aug 20, 2011, at 3:34 AM, harry valentine wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3975 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 8/19/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
harry valentine wrote:

I guess you meant the question specifically to mean actual operating cargo
vessels, in which case I am just as interested as you.

In the general case kite boats and kite surfers often hold speed records in high
wind speeds and also kite craft are the only ones which can operate with
practically zero surface wind, using buoyant or active kites.

Therefore the potential is there for maximum speeds in all cases.

In practice it boils done to cost of handling. Systems which work well in high
wind speeds may not be manageble in the absence of wind (lulls) and those
suitable for low wind speeds not manageble above certain wind strengths or gusting.

A ship flying a powerful rig running downwind has a critical situation when the
apparent wind drops if it is not able to slow down or retract kites quickly
enough. Therefore the ship must be wary of travelling too fast in relation to
the true wind. This implies that rather high wind speeds are required if
relatively high downwind speeds are to be travelled. This again implies large
waves. Therefore I guess that the actual ship speed could be mostly limited by
the sea state.

If ships could use buoyant kites or motorised kites this would be less strict,
as both could safely keep the kites aloft or retact them safely even in the
absence of surface wind, or seek high enough altitudes in order to achieve
relatively high ship speeds even with low surface wind speeds (and hence low sea
states). Here the limits would be I guess mostly due to the weight of the lines.

Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3976 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
I should think that maintaining a kite in the air by retracting line is a constant-power situation, even if the drum speed has to be increased greatly by gearing.  That's pretty cheap to add.

Bob Stuart

On 20-Aug-11, at 12:46 AM, Theo Schmidt wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3977 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Peter Lynn about 

Kites For Yachts.

 and Kite Power For Commercial ... . 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3978 From: eugeniosaraceno Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Message from Mr Leonardo Libero
Greetings all,
I'm new to this forum, my name is Eugenio and I'm a member of KiteGen Resasrch and WOW. A friend of mine, Mr Leonardo Libero, has asked me to send this message on his behalf

"Dear AWE members, frieds of mine have warned me that I was included in a list of 5 respected people that form a sort of garantee, reference for WOW and consequently for the operation "WOW America". http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/3945

First of all I was not informed of this fact. Second I want to make clear that, as one of the first WOW investors, after the founders, I did not change the intention to contribute exclusively to finance the development of the KiteGen project conceived by Massimo Ippolito. As a consequence I did not approved the "news and diverse" initiatives that WOW board members have conceived.

Thank you for your attention, and accept my best wishes,
Leonardo Libero, libero.leonardo@gmail.com "
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3979 From: Doug Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
I like this.
I'd recommend the following modifications:
1) add several levels to increase power without decreasing RPM
2) make blades more rigid for greater speed, better control over pitch, and operating longevity. A twisted, tapered profile could be applied.
3) add central driveshaft: solid or lattice, to positively translate rotation to the generator, and to maintain elevated state regardless of windspeed or lack thereof.
4)arrange components for continuous, unattended operation, to dismiss the human operator.
5) Call it a Superturbine(R)
:)
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3980 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
That's pretty funny.  Hey, no one has answered my question how all of those kites are going to not end up in one big tangled mess with each other?  

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:31:47 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: VisVentis

 
I like this.
I'd recommend the following modifications:
1) add several levels to increase power without decreasing RPM
2) make blades more rigid for greater speed, better control over pitch, and operating longevity. A twisted, tapered profile could be applied.
3) add central driveshaft: solid or lattice, to positively translate rotation to the generator, and to maintain elevated state regardless of windspeed or lack thereof.
4)arrange components for continuous, unattended operation, to dismiss the human operator.
5) Call it a Superturbine(R)
:)
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3981 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
If just one of these kites go down, the whole operation is screwed.

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: darin_selby@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:32:58 +0000
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Re: VisVentis

 

That's pretty funny.  Hey, no one has answered my question how all of those kites are going to not end up in one big tangled mess with each other?  

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:31:47 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: VisVentis

 
I like this.
I'd recommend the following modifications:
1) add several levels to increase power without decreasing RPM
2) make blades more rigid for greater speed, better control over pitch, and operating longevity. A twisted, tapered profile could be applied.
3) add central driveshaft: solid or lattice, to positively translate rotation to the generator, and to maintain elevated state regardless of windspeed or lack thereof.
4)arrange components for continuous, unattended operation, to dismiss the human operator.
5) Call it a Superturbine(R)
:)
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3982 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
Darin,

There is plenty of room for many kites. Our initial target market is
poor people in winding areas so it will be nearly exclusively rural
people in villages. One kite per village runs no risk of clashes with
neighbouring villages, even in high population areas while using long
lines. Extra long lines cost too much and will upset the aviation
authorities so I suspect initially most of our lines will be about 100m.

The ultimate aim is to fully automate the kites. That means the kites
will be exactly where they are supposed to be at all times. Even on a
densely packed wind farm where different kites are harvesting the wind
from different altitudes there is still minimal risk of conflict.

Robert.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3983 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Message from Mr Leonardo Libero
Hi Eugenio,
 
Thanks for the notice. Sorry for any confusion.
 
Leonardo Libero was included in the WOW Itlay summary only as an example of the fine quality of WOW founders and early investors, not as an endorsement list of diversification supporters.
 
Most of the folks on AWEC list are not aware of the recent debates within WOW over an exclusive Kitegen investment v. a diversified strategy. Recent WOW shareholder polling resulted in an 80% percent or so favorable response to the diversification. Perhaps Leonardo will find something to like in the new directions as they develop.
A special list of WOW new initiative supporters is pending, with many new people to feature,
 
Thanks again,
 
daveS

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3984 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: WOW Background Information

For a clarification on  Mr. Leonardo Libero

please see message
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/3978

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3985 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Anne Quéméré
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3986 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: re: [AWECS] Re: Anne Quéméré
A great new for France and AWE,

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3987 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Energy suppliers to offer kitricity purchasing?

http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/  has a search tool that
does not find yet a mention of kites or AWECS or kitricity or AWE or airborne wind.

Though there is work to do:

One day energy consumers will see on their power bill
an option to buy kitricity generated from AWECS
as opposed to conventional wind, solar, coal, natural gas, etc.

What joyous day will that be in your neighborhood?
What neighborhood will be first to offer
such joyous opportunity to its customers?

News concerning progress toward such days
in utility companies, energy providers, villages, ranches,
nations, states, cities, etc. is invited.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3988 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Selsam Superturbine(R) on Discovery Channel India
Hello All:
A show produced for Discovery Channel Canada called "Innovation Nation: Wind Power" documents land-based and airborne versions of Superturbine(R).

Summary: http://www.landmarkmedia.com/videos_Detail.asp?videokey=1543
Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20o--DzwYXs

Shown are:
a running upwind-downwind SuperTwin(TM),
a spinning, spring-loaded, 2-rotor, downwind Firefly(TM)
a 5-rotor, upwind-downwind Dragonfly(TM),
a spinning, truncated 6-rotor, 7-foot diameter, 5000-Watt prototype built for the California Energy Commission,
a very long, 25-rotor, tower-mounted, suspended, spinning 4-foot diameter prototype, and of course
the incredible flying, spinning, Sky Serpent(TM) prototype, suspended at the upper end from balloons, running a generator mounted on a mobile ground-based support.
The sky serpent is still flying, though a bit beat up after a more than one crash landing.

I'll be interviewed by several media outlets in India, by phone on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2011.

If you are in India, check it out! Yes we bothered to take our patent portfolio into this large and quickly-developing country, paving the way for serious business development there. :)

Doug Selsam
Selsam Innovations
Oak Hills, California
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3989 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Visit from WOW, New York Interns
Here at Selsam Innovations we were honored last week to have a visit from Gaetano Dentamaro and WOW Engineer Paolo, touring the U.S. from Rome, Italy.

We had a fun time and took a day-trip to swim in Lake Arrowhead, in the nearby mountains. We enjoyed a great view from the Rim of the World Highway, and were dive-bombed by a hang-glider.

We were also hosting a few engineering students from New York, (working on a flying prototype), so we had to take 2 cars. Fun was had by all and it was great to meet Gaetano and Paolo.

Doug Selsam
Selsam Innovations
Oak Hills, California
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3990 From: harry valentine Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Thanks All,
 
 
I've been asked to do an article on a kite-powered ship/boat/watercraft with a turbine mounted underneath it .  .  . a version of a water-based kitegen system. The watercraft would sail to-and-fro, transversely to the wind .  .  .  . pulled by high-flying kites. At over 4m/s (7.8-knots) most kinetic turbines become useless .  . .    need to use a different design of water turbine, such as a low-head turbine (from a low-head power dam). The watercraft would be tethered to an island .  .  . the tether would carry electric power to the island and perhaps via submarine cable to nearby mainland cities. A speed of 10-knots to 15-knots would assure that the water turbine would operate at near or over 80% efficiency,
 
 
Thanks,
 
 
Harry

 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:55:47 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
This is a guess but I'd say over 10 knots if a significant commercial vessel - coast wise trader of a couple thousand tons - not over 20. A good design number would probably be between 12 and 16. Another way to look at this is that hull speed on a vessel is roughly 1.3xsqrt(waterlinelength). Drag rise due to wave drag gets excessive at .75 of hull speed. So a 100 foot or even a 200 foot vessel is unlikely to operate much over 10 knots. A typical 400 foot 5000 ton ship will operate at 16 knots with about 5000 shp. If you want to go faster you have to get lots bigger. Say 1000 feet.

Hope this helps
Chris 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3991 From: mmarchitti Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@... I've worked me too for free, actually I put a lot of money on the project.

I have some discomfort about those people who wants "to save the planet", because I remember Blaise Pascal dictum: "Man is neither angel nor beast and the misfortune is that he who would act the angel acts the beast."


The difficult is defining the terms, apporto and opera


Can you exlain?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3992 From: Doug Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: VisVentis
What do you mean? I answered your question. The "kites" could be attached to a central rotating support structure. That way, they would not be free-flying so as to crash.
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3993 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Mario,
 
I stated-

You then asked-

 
I am only a lowly volunteer in recent WOW efforts and do not understand many details. It was explained to me that KiteGen received about 1.2 million Euros via WOW Italy, most of WOW's total early funding. By contrast, WOW America must "bootstrap", depending mostly on sweat equity, the internal funding of its many partners, and early revenue from low-complexity first-to-market AWECS. New angel investment would accelerate progress, but may not be essential if costs are kept very low.
 
I was told that the investment stream to WOW as an exclusive KiteGen vehicle dried up. Diversification and early revenue was seen as a survial path to protect the original WOW shareholder, especially if its KiteGen shares turn out to be greatly overvalued due to emerging competitive pressures and slowness-to-market.
 
I could be wrong on these points, so please correct any errors,
 
Dave's
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3994 From: paolo musumeci Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns
Hi Doug, 
meet you and test your superturbine lifted by my kite was a great experience for us.

well i'm not an engineer, i'm just a chartered accountant and advisor but educated in my grandfather s library that was a nuclear physicist :)

anyway hope meet you again

thanks for your the nice day that we spend together 

PM

--
Paolo Musumeci






2011/8/21 Doug <doug@selsam.com