Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES9283to9332 Page 83 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9283 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: the classic kite's autonomy and energy basis (summary)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9284 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: AWE mention in IEA wind energy report

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9285 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9286 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9287 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9288 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9289 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9290 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9291 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9292 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9293 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Google plus its Google[x] combined wind power investments?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9294 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: September 2012 Autonomous Flight AWE ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9295 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Times of India

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9296 From: dave santos Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: the classic kite's autonomy and energy basis (summary)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9297 From: dave santos Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9298 From: Allister Furey Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9299 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9300 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9301 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9302 From: dave santos Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9303 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Times of India

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9304 From: dave santos Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: What is Makan's Book-Value?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9305 From: Bob Stuart Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9306 From: dobosg001 Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9307 From: dave santos Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9308 From: Doug Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9309 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Line travelers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9310 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9311 From: edoishi Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Mothra tech

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9312 From: dave santos Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes crosswi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9313 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: TWIND ® // Refreshing visit. New graphics.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9314 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: TWIND ® // Refreshing visit. New graphics.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9315 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Trio for Two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9316 From: dave santos Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Fagiano and Milanese AWE Overview

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9317 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: Thanks for at least trying to manage all the cats and suggest re

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9318 From: Rod Read Date: 6/1/2013
Subject: Re: Trio for Two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9319 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Re: Let's advise against more Corwins -- money and effort but little

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9320 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: AWE opportunities on Mars?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9321 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: AWES art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9322 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: fjord bag and upper loch closed circulation pump system

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9323 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9324 From: dave santos Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Giant Chicken Heart //Re: [AWES] fjord bag and upper loch closed c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9325 From: Rod Read Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Giant Chicken Heart //Re: [AWES] fjord bag and upper loch closed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9326 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9327 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9328 From: Lorenzo Fagiano Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9329 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9330 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9331 From: lorenzofagiano Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9332 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9283 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: the classic kite's autonomy and energy basis (summary)
To practice the concepts of autonomy for AWES, may we dissect some explicit systems to see if our community is well or poorly applying "autonomous" and "autonomy" ?

Some questions surrounding AWES  autonomy:                     (please add questions that might clarify)
  • An AWES that requires ground control via radio control or wired control with humans sitting (or standing or running) making decisions about the launch-flight-land session seems not to be autonomous.  Is that your understanding?
  • Has the claim regarding autonomy by Dave Santos been carefully peer reviewed yet for validity and sound application of "autonomy"?
  • Has the recent claim by Makani Power been peer reviewed yet for validity and sound application of "autonomy"?
  • ?

=============
The following clip is not necessarily with any authority, but provided only to tease in aspects regarding autonomy, so that we might grow a consensus about what we will mean when we call out "fully autonomous" to each other and to the public about AWES: 

From "space craft" text in a wiki: 

Autonomy is an increasing feature of space systems with two objectives

  • Mandatory for new functions:
e.g. several spacecraft in formation flight adjust their relative positions so that interferometric measurements with wide basis can be performed
  • Cost reduction:
e.g. failure detection and recovery by spacecraft system without ground station involvement reduces Up-/Downlink usage and reduces operational costs on ground.

An Autonomous Space Craft might make certain decisions for itself based on imagery observation and a pre-programmed algorithm that will determine the only possible logical outcome and then perform that task without having to ask controllers NAND NOR AND types of parameters. Autonomy in Space does not relate to the socio-political definitions, here we are talking about a device that can make basic or convoluted decisions based on LOGIC (in an electronic usage) - see X37b Military Space Plane for an example

To have true Autonomy however a device (or entity) would need to have a longer leash being able to complete complex missions without human intra direction. Such a system would say further automate the other elements of the total process making the whole of the "system" larger by including more devices that multicommunicate with each other without involving ground based technicians or communications. (the military might not want to send possibly interceptable signals to and from said same)

For example: If they automated the ground based tracking and control sending and or included additional satellites and/or space planes OR other devices (autonomous air and seacraft) the X37b Missions could someday become totally Autonomous.

  • Basically: Send it on a mission and recover it when it lands.
  • Obviously Autonomy here too has its authority hierarchy whereby command override

is in effect. If the ground controllers want to they can take control of the space craft at any time. A typical mission though will be preprogrammed and perform as directed and land.. OR perform a task WHILE and/or UNTIL (in a software sense) a condition is met (say a signal sent from the ground) IF/THEN Land the Un-Manned SpaceCraft without further direction from the ground. The systems so happen to interact but that is not a necessary condition for autonomy. As each device becomes more and more autonomous the total network becomes more and more intelligent and at the same time secure
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9284 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: AWE mention in IEA wind energy report
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "dimitri.cherny" wrote:
Then the graphic from the report of 2009 has a mention of Airborne: 

related, but from an old Makani source: 
http://smartcitystudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/AirbornePower2SCS1.jpg

The MK path area shows the wing-span area traversed, not the area of the turbines on the wing. 

How would a graphic on these matters in 2013  show AWES potentials?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9285 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
He has a presence in  LinkedIn.   Contact made. 

"present: un-tethered flying wind power plant (WO 2010/106382 A3), high energy-density flow battery, high energy-density energy storing media  "
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9286 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
http://www.chemotronik.hu/

Their tab, which read their intro/mission in AWES:

Clip:
Our Idea is to eliminate the cable and tether.   Learn more: www.ifo-energy-unlimited.com
----------End of clip----------
On the page you will read of their "Challenge"   from which I clip a short: 

"Does the tether have such a function that makes it indispensable?


The answer is NO! "

==============================================================


Welcome Gabor Dobos
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9287 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
In their text, they mention an early AWES patent in Great Britain  which I found for our convenience and might be discussed in itself at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitepatents/message/1182     as Dobos only mentions that patent as an example of high dependency on tether and cable. 


GB489139

Improvements in or relating to wind- driven power apparatus  


Page bookmarkGB489139  (A)  -  Improvements in or relating to wind- driven power apparatus
Inventor(s):
Applicant(s):A VAN GRIES +
Classification:
- international:F03D11/04
- cooperative:F03D11/04; F05B2240/921; Y02E10/728
Application number:GB19370020813 19370727 
Priority number(s):GB19370020813 19370727
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9288 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
In their site text they footnote four patents to indicate patent investments without there being yet any utility scale AWES:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9289 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
I am a bit puzzled. Within the hour, the "Challenge" link for more info seems to have vacated the interesting Challenge paragraph. What I am now seeing is a note to investors to contact the company by email for more information. 

The take I get, so far, is that the proposal puts them into FFAWE or FFAWES using upper airs' layers differentials to mine energy.  If so, we welcome Dobos to the FFAWE Club:  
where several methods of FFAWE are in focus. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9290 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
Puzzle partially, but not fully solved.  Either by browser is not feeding the site properly or there is some trick to links wanted. In any case, there are many links available ..... somehow... with text on the site.   I am getting to the pages without there showing URLs for each page, by returning to the page with refresh and playing around (?) ... and finally I get pages with separate titles:  Why?   Applications.  Solution.   Feasibility.  Challenge.    Investors.   KEYWORDS.  Contact Us ,    etc. ... not sure how many more.    Maybe others with different browsers will get the link set on the left side of the page there.  My experience was a struggle; I almost left the site ... but glad I did not.   
    More note:  Seems the matter regards Adobe Flash add-on; My Chrome browser did not feed the menu of the site. When I went to my I.E.  browser, the menu would show fully iff I installed the Adobe Flash Player for the I.E. Explorer's use, or something (not an computer geek here in me).   I got it going. There are links for the pages listed above. 

"Harvesting energy gliders"

After I installed a new version of Adobe Flash Player, then my I.E. browser showed the site properly.  But my Google Chrome browser is still not showing the site properly.    It is worth the  effort.    

Copyright © 2010 IFO - ENERGY -UNLIMITED.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9291 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
Hello Dr. Gabor DOBOS, 

         May I add you to a KiteEnergy list that gets brief notices maybe a couple times a year?

Also, you are invited to join the AirborneWindEnergy  tech group online. We are presently just starting to discuss your disclosures. 
and its thread of replies. 

Welcome also to the FFAWE club!   No dues, no formalities. Only tech inclusion and similar interests. 

And I refer your glance into the works of Gary Osoba and Taras Kiceniuk, Jr.    They have done practical work in mining gusts for soaring. 

And also to the tech involved in powered aircraft which go into gliding in emergencies and produce power with their RATs. 

And to that proposed big dirigible proposed for gliding up and down in oscillations while having RATs during the atmospheric excursions. 

What a great time we live in!   Adventure calls us to make a difference!   Use the wind's differences to make a difference!   Yes. 

CC: 
And I copy Wayne German who is one of the many members of FFAWE Club. 
And Dave Santos, a FFAWE Club member also.
And John Oyebanji, president pro-tem of AWEIA international
And Bob Stuart, veteran technologist and on forum moderator team.
And Bob Kuczewski, president of USHawks
And Bob Trampenau of Seedwings
And Gary Osoba with deep gliding and soaring experience.

Wishing you and your team the best in mining the upper winds !

Lift, 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9292 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
Dear Joe,
          I was very glad to receive your kind invitation to your Linkedin network. Yes, I am the inventor of the patent application WO2010106382 (A3) - UN-TETHERED AUTONOMOUS FLYING WIND POWER PLANT AND ITS GROUND-STATION

I suppose you know that the international search report of the WIPO  was favorable, but I could not finance the national phases of the PCT - patenting process. Therefore, the invention became a public property. Of course, I have several further ideas in my head regarding the implementation of the invention that were not described in the patent application. Sadly, this invention seems to be a sci-fi for the investors, and not a real opportunity for energy harvesting from high altitude winds, though all parts of the plan are based on the technical possibilities of today or of the very near future.

Take a look please at a paper that appeared in Energy Harvesting Journal at :  http://www. energyharvestingjournal.com/ articles/untethered-flying- wind-power-plant-00004840.asp  . This is of special interest for me, since a comment describes several doubts, like: "This idea seems to defy several laws of physics.", allowing me the possibility to answer and refute them. You can find my answer at the end of the article.  Of course, everybody can make mistakes, which is why I always ran my ideas by several people. My foremost critics are my two sons. I myself am a chemist by profession, while my elder son is an engineer physicist and teaches physics at the Budapest University of Technology and Economics (BME). My younger son has a BSc in electrical engineering and is currently working on his master's degree. 

Though the invention is my "one man show", I know that it has to be a multidisciplinary project, where all parts have their own professionals. Well, it seems I have already found most of  them.

 I thank you again your kind invitation and if you have somebody who would "adopt" and most of all, finance this dream, I am ready to cooperate.

With best regards,

Gabor
.............................. ..
Dr. Gabor Dobos
Chemotronik R&D Ltd. 
3078 Bátonyterenye, 
Május 1. út 2. 
Hungary 
www.chemotronik.hu 
www.ifo-energy-unlimited.com

==============================

Online notes by JoeF:

Gabor, 

          I have that the general proposal's fundamental concepts were already in public domain. However, there well may be novelty in ideas that you say you did not include in the patent. Your specialized background well may play to serve hybrid AWES that have special surface in the flown parts: solar, reflection, signaling .. even while mining the upper wind's layers' differences. 

The implementation will, I bet, include, as you say, inventive details.    Google[x] might be contacted by you, Gabor, as they might be considering diversifying away from the tethered turbine that they included in their purchase of one of our community's companies.  You might become part of the new Google[x] team for airborne wind energy, if they do diversify and want the challenge of having no tether; that would save Makani all the tether challenges. 

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9293 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Google plus its Google[x] combined wind power investments?
Google has  now over $230 million into windpower investments.
Their AWES arm in the [x] department may or may not diversify into more than one method of AWE; we won't know for some time. 
But the method they bought into was characterized today by a writer: 

"They're essentially giant robot-piloted kites that fly in circles ."..   Josh Dzieza 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9294 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: September 2012 Autonomous Flight AWE ?
Three going for more?  "Fully autonomous"
1. DS  ?
2. .........This  ?   September 2012.   Video:

EISG Airborne Wind Energy Automatic Flight 

3. MK   ?  


I am sure we are missing someone.  Here was an early occurrence in my life: 
Years and years ago I placed a system anchored. Its wing was quiet.  I did not touch it after the setting. Then, all on its own, the system launched into flight and converted the wind's energy to several forms of energy: static electricity, sound, mechanical vibrations, and more. Then the system--all on its own--stopped flying and came back to terra firma; not once did I send it any signals during the entire fully autonomous launch-flight-land sequence; not once; and no one else put in control signals. 

So, what are we meaning by "fully autonomous flight" of an AWES?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9295 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Times of India
The Times Of India
Dear Reader,
Your comment on the article ''Inside Google's secret lab'' is now displayed on timesofindia.com.
''We anticipate Google[x] diversifying methods in its play in EnergyKiteSystems community, as there are over 50 different methods. The purchased company is just one of over 100 airborne wind energy companies. We have posted the names of over 900 stakeholders in the kite energy community. We would like to see Google[x] kite company succeed; comparative exploration among the many methods would be their best bet. Google, spend well the money you have collected from ... the people ...

EnergyKiteSystems is a gathering arena; free forum for the techies is involved: called AirborneWindEnergy ; all public. The open forum on kite energy and free-flight AWE is now with over 9000 posts. We hope Google[x] will carefully review every possible path to success on high altitude wind energy, not just the one early down-select that is in their acquisition presently.''
To reply to this comment , or see the whole conversation, click here.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Regards,
Team TOI
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9296 From: dave santos Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: the classic kite's autonomy and energy basis (summary)
Joe,
 
Of course there is no formal peer review for Forum claims, which are ideally novel testable conjectures in support of RAD (rapid AWE dev). Let me be more explicit about the claim that a classic single-line kite is highly autonomous (some more than others). 
 
Allow first that specific mechanical automata are well established as cybernetic, with a definite canonical autonomy (a feedback-loop), for example, the Watts Governor. Kites are even richer cybernetic devices.
 
The kite yaw feedback loop is mediated by a tail, snowplow-stability, and/or pendulum mass, and reacts with good control performance to chaos (turbulence). Pitch is subject to self-adjusting elevation (adapting to velocity), sometimes by an elastic aft bridle (AoA modulation). The field azimuth DOF is autonomous weather-cocking. One can count quite a few feedback loops in many clever kite designs.
 
Thus the kite senses its environment, mixes its inputs, and calculates its responses by embodied computation, which is expressible as a state machine. Coherent flight is the goal state. To come down in lulls is a logical operation, as even Aristotle reasoned. Some kite types even self-relaunch, like sleds and various "3D" types. All in all, this is an exceptional degree of robust flight autonomy, and quite well documented.
 
Complex "Autonomy" is not a fixed precise idea, but evolves. No cybernetic system is known to be fully autonomous. Humans, for example, need mothers, culture, and ecosystems to perform logical often supervisory functions. At the other extreme of complexity, "autonomy" as a concept goes deep into thermodynamics and information theory.
 
In short, the classic kite is a paleo-robot of the most wonderful sort,
 
daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9297 From: dave santos Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: EISG Prototype Video
This is an intriguing machine-actuated parafoil prototype, but a lot of key information is missing. Its strange that the video never does reveal a control interface or bus and its sadly necessary to guess at the required sensor inputs (Is that a video camera on the upwind ledge? Does what looks like a kite killer somehow encode position?). A Torino academic connection is evident, but this was a California demo, so it seems to be a serious international effort. The Harken standup-blocks seem eerily to mirror current KiteLab devices with such blocks. Surely there is more info out there?
 
 
The Encampment experimentalists continue to test the new pulley-tree that filters actuation from load signals, with nice results; a method that could convert the EISG unit into a fully-productive AWES with minimal adaptation.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9298 From: Allister Furey Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video
Much of the details are here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.5060
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9299 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

---Great, thanks. 

At the site Allister gave us is a link for a 20 page PDF
on topic:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9300 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video

--- The paper's references: 

References
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[2] Windlift website, http://www.windlift.com/.
[3] Kitenergy website, http://www.kitenergy.net/.
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[5] J. H. Baayen and W. J. Ockels. Tracking control with adaption of kites. IET Control Theory and Applications,
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[20] A. Ilzhöfer, B. Houska, and M. Diehl. Nonlinear MPC of kites under varying wind conditions for a new class of
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[21] Steven M. LaValle. Planning Algorithms. Cambridge University Press, Illinois, US, 2006.
[22] M. L. Loyd. Crosswind kite power. Journal of Energy, 4(3):106–111, 1980.
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analysis and performance evaluation. Sensors, 11(10):9182–9206, September 2011.
[26] SkySails GmbH & Co., 2010. http://www.skysails.info.
[27] E.J. Terink, J. Breukels, R. Schmehl, andW.J. Ockels. Flight dynamics and stability of a tethered inflatable kiteplane.
AIAA Journal of Aircraft, 48(2):503–513, 2011.
[28] C. Vermillion, T. Grunnagle, and I. Kolmanovsky. Modeling and control design for a prototype lighter-than-air wind
energy system. In American Control Conference 2012, pages 5813–5818,Montreal, Canada, 2012.
[29] Greg Welch and Gary Bishop. An Introduction to the Kalman Filter. ACM, Inc., Chapel Hill, NC, 2001.
[30] P. Williams, B. Lansdorp, and W. Ockels. Optimal crosswind towing and power generation with tethered kites.
Journal of guidance, control, and dynamics, 31:81–93, 2008.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9301 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video
Paper's title: 
On sensor fusion for airborne wind energy systems ∗†
L. Fagiano‡, K. Huynh, B. Bamieh, and M. Khammash§

This manuscript is a preprint of a paper submitted for possible publication on the IEEE Transactions on Control Systems Technology and is subject
to IEEE Copyright. If accepted, the copy of record will be available at IEEEXplore library: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/ .
†This research has received funding from the California Energy Commission under the EISG grant n. 56983A/10-15 "Autonomous flexible wings
for high-altitude wind energy generation", and from the European Union Seventh Framework Programme (FP7/2007-2013) under grant agreement n.
PIOF-GA-2009-252284 - Marie Curie project "Innovative Control, Identification and Estimation Methodologies for Sustainable Energy Technologies".
The authors acknowledge SpeedGoatr's Greengoat program.
‡Corresponding author: fagiano@control.ee.ethz.ch.
§The authors are with the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, University of California at Santa Barbara, CA, USA. L. Fagiano is also with the
Automatic Control Laboratory, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich, Switzerland. M. Khammash is also with the Department of Biosystems
Science and Engineering, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich, Switzerland.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9302 From: dave santos Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: EISG Prototype Video
Nice work by mainstream AWE academic standards. It would be interesting to know how brittle* the system is to common large perturbation and how the authors plan to implement launching and landing in their sensor suite and state machine.
 
Correction: I misreported the kite for a parafoil, but its an LEI.
 
LEI's are usually water kites, but apparently find favor in many AWE land experiments since existing state-of-the-art machinery and sensing cannot yet do the subtle ground-handling parafoils need. By contrast, an LEI can roll over like a ball and better present for launch, but is not quite so good a wing.
 
 
 
* One presumes current "automated" kite sessions to commonly have minor mishaps, with human assisted recovery. Rigid wings are truly "brittle", in both engineering senses of the word.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9303 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Times of India
Story still going...
Renewable Energy World portal has published this...
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/05/google-reels-in-wind-kite-firm-makani 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9304 From: dave santos Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: What is Makan's Book-Value?
The GoogleX buyout of Makani determined a secret valuation for the company, based on a price that its equity founders found reasonable to walk away from the AWE sector. No doubt that the founders increasingly understood the many severe technical and economic defects with their High-Complexity AWES conceptual architecture (they even followed Forum critiques), problems so severe they made Makani a probable losing prospect in a race to create a new muti-trillion dollar industry. Its also seems apparent that Astro Teller did not perform anything like real due diligence research in fixing on a Makani buy-out, and that Makani probably cut corners in disclosing its competitive challenges before the sell-out. Its known that Makani was on the ropes before the purchase, and its "Hail-Mary" demo was a matter of considerable luck (note the shaky orbit just before the flight aborted). Larry Page's mock command to "crash five times" is a fig leaf for the era of pain Makani engineers now face.
 
So what was this "undisclosed" sales price? Some proportion to the prior investment of   need to have sold dearly. The real number is therefore likely neither cheap nor dear, but a rough compromise. My guess is the founder's 70% equity sold for less what Google paid initially for its 30% share, so somewhere around 20 million  bought out the company. So a plausible book-value is around 30 million, which represents a considerable devaluation, but hides the cold fact the company may be a worthless money-pit, if run as before.
 
 
 
 




 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9305 From: Bob Stuart Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?
It is unfortunate, but there are so many orders of magnitude on the financial spectrum that what looks like a blood-sucking money pit to us can be a useful pawn-sacrifice in the larger scheme of things.

Bob Stuart

On 30-May-13, at 11:59 AM, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9306 From: dobosg001 Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos

Hello Joe,Hello Friends,

Thank you for the invitation to the AirborneWindEnergy tech group. I hope  you can understand me despite my not quite perfect English . If not, please do not hesitate to ask me what I mean.

First of all, I have to respond to Joe's opinion, saying that "I have that the general proposal's fundamental concepts were already in public domain". It is probably a delusion.

Will you please take a look at the following link:

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf;jsessionid=29D6D5D7E1A207C40DCA47D0FEDA041F.wapp1?docId=WO2010106382&recNum=1&tab=PCTDocuments&maxRec=1&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=FP%3A%2528un-tethered%2529

You can find there the International Search Report of the WIPO. You will see  that
all the cited documents have the sign "A", meaning that they all describe the current state of the art and are of NO particular relevance to the invention at hand.

Furthermore, you can find at the same link also the "Written Opinion of the International Search Authority". On page  2.  one can read the statement of the  authority regarding to novelty, inventive step and industrial applicability. The statement is YES, for all of the 3 questions regarding all of the claims.

Well, I agree Joe that the components/constituents of my invention (each by themselves) are well known technical solutions.  But according to my (and the WIPO's) best knowledge the complete system resulting from the synthesis of the known elements was never described before.  

By the way, the above dispute has no economical or financial significance, since I have stopped  the patenting process (except of Hungary and India) because of financial reasons. Meanwhile, I have received the Hungarian patent. There is a pending patent application in India, based on this PCT application.

I am going to follow the discussion, and answer all the questions. But I ask you for some patience. Probably, you can understand that the unsuccessful financing has forced me to deal with other R&D tasks too. So, I have somewhat neglected this one. That is the reason of  the unanswered letters. Excuse me please. I need some time to make up my leeway.

Gabor
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9307 From: dave santos Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?
Bob,
 
I certainly would not call this a "blood-sucking" money pit, unless injuries and fatalities emerge. I meant only a standard money-pit, much as a yacht is said to be a "hole in the water one thows money into".
 
Nor would this be an ideal case of a masterly "pawn sacrifice" on the part of some Google strategist, compared to the missed opportunity to do real technical due diligence, instead of the years "commuting to Maui" by a VC go-go model.
 
Watching Google (and its close partner, the US govt.) futz AWE may be the "best of all possible worlds", but its not necessarily ideal :)
 
daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9308 From: Doug Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: What is Makan's Book-Value?
I've watched a hundred million dollars wasted on just one small wind turbine company. The key factor was their products almost always broke down in strong winds. People often joke about those with wild ideas "smoking crack". In this case that may not be so far from the truth, and may be somewhat related to an explanation for a mystery many of us have been wondering about for several months now, or so a little bird told me. Of course you have to be careful listening to little birds - they chirp a lot, but may not really know anything.

I've offered everyone from NASA to Googlem to ARPA-E, if you want to start doing reliable AWE right now, I can get you there. It even goes beyond SuperTurbine(R). I was fortunate to have hung out with Eric Schmidt, but even that led nowhere. Offer stands open to all.
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9309 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Line travelers
Line travelers?  In the full blossoming of AWES, there will be various items traveling on lines in the sky for various purposes.

Start: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9310 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Re: Hungary's Gabor Dobos
Welcome, Gabor, 
                    Thank you for the generous offer to face questions in the forum 

The WIPO was challenging for me. 
I went to the intro page and then made a short tiny URL to key the site:
Then one may reach the various WIPO documents. 

Soon, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9311 From: edoishi Date: 5/30/2013
Subject: Mothra tech
Here's a little bit of the Texas (Ranger's) AWE Encampment*: 

Battling the Tarp 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9312 From: dave santos Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes crosswi
 
Dear Lorenzo,
 
You work is admirable, but the Introduction of your latest Sensor Fusion paper* seems to overlook a major class of promising AWES configurations-
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9313 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: TWIND ® // Refreshing visit. New graphics.
It has been some time since we visited Twind®

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9314 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: TWIND ® // Refreshing visit. New graphics.
Wow!
     In kite energy patents and in some companies, the twin-branch oscillator is in focus. 

Gained energy could recharge the batteries of a HG scooter tow or the batteries of an eHG. The oscillation could cut lumber, saw old trucks in half, operate a diamond saw, rotate pulverizing or powdering pincer-smashers, tow up a HG, and much more ..

Explore: 
 For my easy use in featuring the basic action that is in public domain from an expired patent, animation would be fun and published. 
Lift, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9315 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Trio for Two
Oscillate wing sets autonomously. Store energy or works locally or remotely or send blessings to the grid. 
Wing sets may employ trains, singles, etc.    
 ~ JoeF 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9316 From: dave santos Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Fagiano and Milanese AWE Overview
Quick Review  ***--
 
A commendable academic overview of single anchor AWES issues of the EU school, but with small gaps in theory better known in the respective AWE circles.
 
The Overview particularly misses short-stroke/short-recovery pumping cycles in favor of the "old-school" reel-out assumption. Recognition of passive cycle control laws based on classic-kiting-based configurations is a common omission (as noted earlier). Their drag-force utility assessment seems at odds with Loyd, whose max-power curves showed a mix of lift and drag power wins. Their key choice of max-power-by-equivalent-wing-area, as a driving analytic parameter, gives this overview a different result than max-power-to-weight would, as a single partial predictor of an optimal AWES (with economics factors also dominant). Regulatory and social impact issues barely figure in the analysis, but could drive "optimal" real-world design. Still, we look forward to anything Lorenzo and Mario come up with, for a preponderance of good information.
 
Joe's links below do lead to a free viewable copy, but you have to click thru donation windows.
 


     ----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com font-weight:bold;">Subject: Re: Have a link for this?
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9317 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 5/31/2013
Subject: Re: Thanks for at least trying to manage all the cats and suggest re
DaveS,
AWEIA has not appointed anyone as 'AWEIA expert' neither will AWEIA ever have any CTO. My response to Wayne only acknowledged and publicly welcomed his interest in serving on an 'AWEIA Technical Committee' which when fully constituted will include quite a number of others.
As I did note, AWEIA's Committees are not fully formed yet.
Further lifts.
JohnO
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Company
3rd Floor, 53 St. Finbarr's Road, Akoka-Yaba;
Lagos. Nigeria.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer and confidentiality note
This e-mail, its attachments and any rights attaching hereto are, and unless the content clearly indicates otherwise, remains the property of John Adeoye Oyebanji of Hardensoft International Limited, Lagos, Nigeria. 

It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.
Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9318 From: Rod Read Date: 6/1/2013
Subject: Re: Trio for Two
Under a large kite mesh, each node kite with tethering spread to neighbouring ground gen mesh pulleys
Swaying the mesh can drive the pulleys.
A similar bidirectional crosswind tethering can also be made to accept complete mesh crosswind tugging

Rod Read
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9319 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Re: Let's advise against more Corwins -- money and effort but little
Thanks, Wayne.
Yes, AWEIA's gates remain open. Our invitation is ever open and extended.
Services however are strictly voluntary and yet un-remunerated due to present limitations as AWEIA remains committed to her founding ideals of open transparency and free sharing of voluntary contributions (in both cash or kind) by willing members.
The AWEC(onferences) are organized presently by the paid-membership only AWEC(onsortium) without even as much as conceding a seat on it's organizing committee to AWEIA.
AWEIA welcomes the open AWE Encampment initiative of the Dave Santos - led KiteLab Group/Util and looks forward to contributing to it's further enrichment and globalization.
Further lifts.
John Oyebanji
AWEIA International
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Floor, 53 St. Finbarr's Road, Akoka-Yaba;
Lagos. Nigeria.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer and confidentiality note
This e-mail, its attachments and any rights attaching hereto are, and unless the content clearly indicates otherwise, remains the property of John Adeoye Oyebanji of Hardensoft International Limited, Lagos, Nigeria. 

It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.
Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9320 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: AWE opportunities on Mars?
This topic thread invites a continuation of comments made a years ago, and of the NASA comments regarding AWES on Mars.  What kiting opportunities will there be on Mars and what AWES opportunities?   

To tease from tornado rub: 
The HiRISE camera snapped this shot of a towering dust devil crossing the northern hemisphere?s Amazonis Planitia in March 2012. By measuring the dust devil?s shadow and the angle of solar illumination, planetary scientists determined that the structure is some 20 kilometers tall, including the loose dust clouds atop the twister. The core column of spinning dust alone is roughly half that height. -- NASA/JPL/University of Arizona
http://www.scientificamerican. com/media/gallery/F7588FD8-021 3-5B64-71927F42534FB2B1_1.jpg
Thanks to Rick M. for tip on the photo.

Notes on topic are welcome as the months and years roll in.    Tasks on Mars by working kite systems?  Energy production by use of AWES?  Design challenges? Etc.

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9321 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: AWES art?
As the K3 unfolds, i.e., the AWES era of kiting, there will be a flow art. Some of that art will be treasured in various ways. Collectors will jostle for holding prized pieces. Auctions will move prices sky high. 

A tease of what will come concerns 
""A dream-like painting of children releasing kites by Brazil's Candido Portinari sold for US$1.4 million at Christie's Latin American art sale and set a world auction record for the artist."  

Action items, perhaps: 
 AWES teams might have an art department. Share your passions and progress with artists; let them do what they do.  
Meditate on what artists may be saying in their art. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9322 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: fjord bag and upper loch closed circulation pump system
Large cheap kites can lift massive weights with ease, so gearing this
force to smooth outputs is desirable.

If the large kite set is not running crosswind but as a lift drag
charging pumping device
A desired design will
cyclically after between the lift & drag phase inherently wanting to
sink & recover after the peak of achievable lift & drag

So a device that inherently compares tether force available to work done
and applies the force appropriately between the front and back tethering
depending on the current phase of work ,

The pump style device will not simply settle at a balance but actively
use phased imbalance to rise and fall.

So designs should consider either by weight, position, time, force or
other simple acting sense what has been done how to efficiently react.

One neat trick would be flying a kite with one foot either side of an
island / raised reservoir.

Switching the balance of weighting between front and back lines is
standard practice in powering and de-powering.
So maybe a pivoted point down triangle could be fitted to the foot of a
Mothra as a load controller.
The top of the triangle attached to the load at the front point. So as
it reaches a maximum height, front lines are tensed more than rear...
de-powering.
The triangle latches onto the back lines until it falls and is re-set at
ground level... back lines tense and lift resumes.

In the case of a two footed lifting standard Mothra type.. As it sits
pre lift & drag phase... imagine lifting a bag of water at each foot.
The bag is full and bulbous underwater having being filled with water.
The bag top will be lifted by rigging mostly set to the back lines of
the Mothra.
Assume there is a loch in the raised middle of the island or the Mothra
bag is otherwise able to release to some raised reservoir.

As the bag is lifted high into the air, ducting and releasing water to
the reservoir makes the bag slim and elongate...
The bottom swollen sides of the bag tether the front area of the kite so
that when they stretch away ... the kite depowers, sinks the bag and...
as the bag is now bellow the reservoir, water flows into the bag...
resetting the system...

Can that be done one foot at a time?

Or couldn't we just a massive normal piston setup and multiple take off
gens available for varying force inputs...?

I guess this is the same as lifting a massive obelisk repetitively

cc3.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9323 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?
Yeah, well I hope nobody ever wants to attempt resurrecting my daisy bag as art. I was so unimpressed that I turned 1/4 of it into a slung hammock just to make sure.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9324 From: dave santos Date: 6/2/2013
Subject: Giant Chicken Heart //Re: [AWES] fjord bag and upper loch closed c
Megascale AWES work animats are definitely emerging. Giant theme kites with self-animated motion have flourished in recent decades. Pioneering kite puppetismo also animates the sky. These methods are informing quite powerful AWES versions. Even ordinary kites dance and can do some work.
 
As a large bluff-body in flow, a mountain naturally sets its wake to coherent oscillation. Galloping of large engineered aero-structures spontaneously emerges in many conditions. Its not hard to find the tuning inputs that control oscillation usefully. Arches can be made to gallop up-and-down or side-to-side in predictable configurations. The logic and energy basics are identical with electronic circuits (flip-flops, diodes, currents, watts,...). These are true robots, if not Tin Men.
 
The key engineering trick to megascale structure is rope load-path networks infilled with membrane. There is nothing simpler, tougher, or lighter, than soft construction. The physics effect to keep in mind is the enormous inertial force of moving air itself at megascale. The internal mass in a parafoil counts, but the universal case is the large vortically entrained air masses around the wing. Megascale tends to high Re and the only thing keeping everything form going nuts-turbulent is the nominal low-velocity of our most probable winds. Porosity reduces Re, in effect reducing the characteristic-dimension of solidity.
 
The largest schemes are all monsters, like Bolonkin's AB Domes, Dr. Beaujean's Spin-Baskets, Wayne's Blinds, Chet's Wind Dams, and especially Mothrapolis and Rod's fevered  explorations; all recall Wyllis's Giant Slurping Amoeba or Cosby's Giant Chicken Heart.
Up, up, and Away ;)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9325 From: Rod Read Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Giant Chicken Heart //Re: [AWES] fjord bag and upper loch closed

Not only am I trying to create monsters but it's worth keeping my magical powers in mind too.
I can squash all of the air in a huge theatre just by snapping my fingers.
Muuuu hah hahhh ha haaaaa

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9326 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?
Naturally, Kites by design are works of art. Kite-applications in Tourism and Bird-scaring require good art and art will definitely contribute to the beauty of any AirborneWindEnergy System.
Further lifts,
JohnO
AWEIA International
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Nigeria.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer and confidentiality note
This e-mail, its attachments and any rights attaching hereto are, and unless the content clearly indicates otherwise, remains the property of John Adeoye Oyebanji of Hardensoft International Limited, Lagos, Nigeria. 

It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.
Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9327 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: AWES art?
Excellent, JohnO.        
Working kite systems need not be visually vanilla. 
As you point, AWES may be visually artistic, even carry fine art, perhaps give profound message from the heart of poets, or carry educational streaming of art for all ages.   In some cases designers may choose to surface the AWES in a manner that has one seen nothing at all, a flock of birds, a moon, some planets, butterflies, angels, etc.      For AWES wings that are huge and very high, still perhaps the groundling may look up and experience seeing a moth that seems tiny even though the AWES wing might be huge but distant from view. 
            Even while the visual art displays, the surface might be solar-energy converting surfaces. And the AWES might have a fourth dimension going at the same time: relaying communications signals. Fifth? Observation station.   Packing all these in one working AWES might serve to bring COE down. 

Filler: Wayne German might have a good point about converting to just Kite Energy Systems for naming our field:  http://www.aweconference.net
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9328 From: Lorenzo Fagiano Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro
Dear Dave,

thanks for your email. Actually I'm not sure if we are thinking about the same thing.. What I meant is that in AWES some form of active flight control is anyways needed to make the system operate in a proper way. If you came up with a solution that is able to work without active control, I'd be very interested to look at it.
Do you have any description and analysis of the ideas you mention? If the conceptual and experimental progress you talk about has been demonstrated and documented somewhere, I'd be more than happy to look at those references and cite them. In my opinion they should however satisfy 2 requirements: 1. they should have been through some sort of peer-review process to assess their validity, and 2. they should be accessible and archived in some repository.

Kind regards,
Lorenzo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9329 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro
One type of peer reviewing is occurring in open view here in this forum. Scholars and scientists and engineers of any color are able and welcome to review critically any AWES idea, project, analysis, claim, patent, statement, essay ... for all to see.  In this manner, every expert may have an equal chance to comment on the science or art that is being described. 

The very posting here is surely a new era form of repository that is fully open and accessible to seekers of progress in AWES.  There is no fee to pay to read. There is no fee to put an idea or project up on a hot seat.  Review is open to good thinkers, professionals, expert amateurs, creative analysts.    Post your criticism of an idea in good faith without personal attacks.   The cream will rise to the top.   Old-school venues will continue; that is fine. But to stay away from broad peer review is now a means to risk narrow tunnel vision and potential loss. 

Repository of essays and papers is also freely availble at EnergyKiteSystems.com    No charge for archiving one's paper and images!  Access: excellent. Searchable: yes.    PaytoRead: No. 

Passive-control autonomous AWES has long been an open method and topic ready for review by any peer in the kite-energy systems community. 
It is fine to echo one's papers into old-school systems of repositories, but to shy from going into the new school of open peer review and archiving is to risk becoming invisible.    The whole world may freely reach this forum and its associated repositories.     

Support this system with a donation when you see the light. Thanks for the support of participation and for seeing the necessary need for occasional financial donation.    What? You did not know that PayPal easy support is available?      Subscribe/Donate 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9330 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Water
Water watching in kite-energy?  
Wing surfaces, tether surfaces, electrical components, etc. 
Rain, condensation, icing, dew, humidity, wetting, drying, etc. 
Water might be something to reject. 
Water might be something to attract. 
Water might be used in a working AWES as part of task fulfillment. 
Water might be used in control systems via wetting and drying.
Icing challenges the AWES future. 
Off-shore AWES involves water and sea-salt sprays. 

Fearing:
++Hydrophobe 

Loving:
++Hydrophile
++Amphiphile  (loves water)

If you have a "water" aspect or concern  in AWES, consider posting a note in this thread. Perhaps a link to an article or paper. 

For example, something from George Tech in a March 26, 2013, news note where applications may be for some AWES surfaces: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9331 From: lorenzofagiano Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro
Well, I'm in favour of open-access repositories, in fact everyone can access all the details of our recent works on the arXiv (http://arxiv.org/)

I'd like to renew my question.. You say that "Passive-control autonomous AWES has long been an open method and topic ready for review by any peer in the kite-energy systems community", then I'd like to see some document giving the details of this idea, how it works, what are the performance, etc.

Thanks,
Lorenzo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9332 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/3/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswind Anchors as "passive rigid structure that...imposes cro
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "lorenzofagiano" wrote:   ...
The width of the "open" aspect is very wide: newbie to veteran aeronautical engineers and scientists of deep maturity. Review and critique has similar width. The meta editorial comment is that we are in an infancy of the project to have robust participation.  You and others are invited to help make the sharing, reviewing, critiquing, analysis, and extension ever richer. There is ever imperfection; however, the key is that there is a steady flow of positive gems in the articles whether the articles are short or long, complete or incomplete, meeting someone's standards or not.   We are after rapid awes development (RAD) and welcome the gems however dressed. 

The forum may be easily searched from its search tool.   The EnergyKiteSystems.net may be easily searched at 

Some preliminaries: 
1. An AWES has three major sets of parts: resistive set, tether set, and wing set.   Resistive sets may be fixed, moving, or even flying as a wing set itself. 

2. Any kite system is an AWES.

3. An elementary AWES of an earth-fixed resistive set (anchor), single-line tether set, and single-wing in wing set is a turbine converting energy from the fluid in which the wing is flown.  Conversion of the kinetic energy of the fluid flow relative to the wing to other forms of energy or work occurs.  

4. An elementary AWES may be arranged to be an active turbine without active controls by any additional robot or human after the initial arrangements are made and placed in a fitting fluid. Upon occurrence of adequate flow, the autonomous passively-controlled AWES will launch itself, fly, work, and land at some point in time (even if such takes the slow wearing out of the components by age, perhaps even by long-term disappearance by sublimation or loss by radiation impact. The fluid may be air, water, soup, space plasma, blood, etc.  Such elementary passively-controlled AWES may come in various sizes to fit purpose from tiny to huge. The amount of energy converted may vary according to design or purpose.   

5. Then furthering, non-elementary passively-controlled autonomous AWES  may be designed, made, and examined for worth for niche purposes. 

With that start, we go on to offer an incomplete giving of articles that deal some with passively-controlled autonomous AWES reached by the report of using the search engine over the EnergyKiteSystems.net site; I constructed a tiny URL to reach a truncated set of offerings: