Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8630to8680 Page 70 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8630 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: A monograph on the mechanics and equilibrium of kites.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8631 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8632 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Jose Mathew places method into public domain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8633 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8634 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8636 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8637 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8638 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8639 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Jose Mathew places method into public domain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8640 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8641 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8642 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8643 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8644 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8645 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8646 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8647 From: Rod Read Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8648 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8649 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Relay transport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8650 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Resources Explorer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8651 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8652 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8653 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8654 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Who is Us? //Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8655 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Sierra Magazine came close, but missed AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8656 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: re: Who is Us?   //Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8657 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8658 From: Wayne German Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8659 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8660 From: Doug Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8661 From: Rod Read Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8662 From: dave santos Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8663 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8664 From: dave santos Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Arch Rotation Correction //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8665 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8666 From: Doug Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8667 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Show to see and study !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8668 From: harry valentine Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: AWE & Stricken Cruise Ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8669 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: re: Arch Rotation Correction  //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturb

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8670 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: re: Arch Rotation Correction  //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturb

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8671 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8672 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: Show to see and study !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8673 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWE & Stricken Cruise Ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8674 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8675 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8676 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8677 From: harry valentine Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Ball-bearing gears - possible AWE application

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8678 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8679 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8680 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
Subject: Global Hawk Large UAS AWES Similarity Case




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8630 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: A monograph on the mechanics and equilibrium of kites.
A monograph on the mechanics and equilibrium of kites.

Prepared by C. F. Marvin.

Year: 1897

Pages: 71
At head of title: W.B. no. 122. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8631 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)
Maybe this is how secrecy started: 


 

Is this how secrecy started in kite research?

May 8, 1921, First Kiwanis Kite Tournament in Fort Wayne, Indiana
Biggest Kite
Any single surface kite that flies
with a tail may be entered in this
event.  There is no limit to the size
except the strength of the string, 
rope or fish line with which the kite
is flown.  Boys are warned to keep
the sizes of their kites for this event
secret until tournament day as some
competitor may construct one just
one inch or two bigger. 
====================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8632 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Jose Mathew places method into public domain
Jose Mathew joins a few others in his shared tech: 

Balloon lifting [let's also grant kytoon and kite lifting]
of spiraling cable-turning tether-integrated helical-like wind-energy-mining spinner: "Spiral-cone turbine"
The driven torqued cable pressurizes hydraulic fluid; the fluid drives a central Pelton's turbine  and generator; the fluid is recycled into the same system.   Arrangement vision is of a multiplicity of units for dense array. 

In comment, consider driving water for irrigation, charging aquifers, storing water head  for later use in irrigation and electricity production, etc.

See his sent PDF drawing:  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8633 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
WayneG,

Please can you provide a complete explain of your AWES called "Venetian
Blinds"?

Thanks,

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8634 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
PierreB, 
             Wayne asked me to provide a couple of thins on topic: 

1. His wife some time back corrected the term of "Venetian blinds" to "Vertical Blinds" which is his preferred contemporary term. 
Wayne has always had the airfoils set vertically in the atmosphere with the span of unit high-aspect-ratio wings going generally parallel with a plumb line; hence the "Venetian Blinds" was an inappropriate term that he used inappropriately when he first started putting text to his concepts; hence, he does not intend what the French refer to as persiennes.      Rather, only "Vertical Blinds" remains the term he holds for his systems. 

2. He asked that links be given to the general terms: 
    Venetian blinds: VenetianBlindsImages 
    Vertical blinds:   VerticalBlindsIMAGES   Only this teases the direction of his concern

The following wiki has some incompletions; any author may advance the wiki: 

As for details about Wayne's "Vertical Blinds"  AWES, some waiting may have to be the course. 

JoeF



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8636 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds
Correction:axis of roll,not axis of lace.

PierreB
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
<pierre.benhaiem@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8637 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds
About my two last messages,

It is not possible to understand my two precedent messages because I
made some confusion of terms with the translation, but not only.So
precisions will come later.

PierreB



--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
<pierre.benhaiem@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8638 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R
Here's an example of why these discussion can be a waste of time:
You spent years deriding the Superturbine(R) concept as unworkable, citing the inability of a "torque tube" to convey power. Then you cite the known concept of a kite arch as the new key to AWE, and its best use is to support an array of SuperTurbines.

I'm happy that you have decided that a torque tube can actually work, but what good were all the discussions where you insisted it could NOT work? Anyway, yes I think it is a good idea to try an array of Superturbines, and a kite arch is one way that could be used to support such a SuperTurbine(R) array. Probably best to stay in a unidirectional wind resource although most such sites in actuality have winds from all directions, even within just a few minutes - I know because I live in a "unidirectional wind resource" yet always have to look out the window to see which way the wind is actually blowing at any given moment.

Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8639 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Jose Mathew places method into public domain
Another wannabe-SuperTurbine(R)...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8640 From: Doug Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
Sorry I don't understand the reference to a "rotating stick".

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8641 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

On 22-Feb-13, at 10:06 AM, Doug wrote:


Bob Stuart
Sent from The Country Formerly Known as Nice.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8642 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine

Maybe terms "rotating spar" are clearer.A spar on pivot (see schema) or a similar device is needed for the orientation according to the wind direction.If only one praivailing direction of wind is used the spar is not needed. 

 

PierreB 



  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8643 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine [1 Attachment]

Correction:one prevailing direction of wind...

 

Note:the forces on the two ends of the spar are huge,so I do not think an arch is good for all wind directions unless implementing complex devices.

 

PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8644 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Intellectual property matters
Wayne, 
        On Kite Energy or AWE intellectual property: 
  • A "patent pool" is being promoted. Of course, that assumes someone holds valid and current patents. Validity may be attacked between patentees in or out of court; and negotiations leading to agreements may occur in or out of court. Attacking validity uses prior art, expired patents, public domain, and non-novelty and "obvious" arguments when contests arrive.   This game could become expensive when Kite Energy or AWE begins to flourish.   Even though a patent might be granted, that does not assure that its claims of novelty may not be overcome during contest.  

  • The commercial game has already started with come contest between Sky Windpower and a Mr. Grenier  http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/BaseloadEnergyINC/index.html  ---I do not know the outcome of the dispute. 

  • Some provisional patents on tethers appear to be invalid by some of us; but teams may one day be paying each other royalties or fees for the use of certain tether mechanics. 

  • Some wind machines that have vertical airfoils have shown in patents, especially on rails, especially in a ground-hugging manner; Some products have been tried that have airfoils go one way and then round up and go the other way.   Just what novelty you might hold is something I personally still am not clear about concerning railed or free-flying vertical airfoils.   Getting a provisional patent will not mean that novelty respect will be certain; the road to clout with patents can be a long long adventure.
     
  • DaveS has written about using social professional pressures within the AWE Kite-Energy community to force respect of intellectual property. How effective such tactics will be is anyone's guess.  The huge body of methods that we have been putting out into public view with essays, drawings, experiments, videos ... is being promoted as protectable under "commons" ...something: I am not expert on the strategy, sorry.  One main deposit of the methods is linked in the following pages: 

  • My personal contract with the public has been often published: Any intellectual property regarding kite systems that might be novel from my pen and disclosure is automatically placed into public domain for anyone to use without having to glance my way by statement or remuneration.  I do not expect any others will being doing such gifting formally, at least.   However, by disclosing functions, methods, processes, applications into the public, one begins a decision tree that will have patent protection or not involved; and such protection varies among nations, not all the same. 

  • Suppose someone makes and sells some AWES, or uses some AWES.   Suppose someone claims: "Hey you, you are using my IP; please negotiate with me, so that I share in the benefits."    Then what?  Ignoring? Private settlement?  Court battle?   Battles in courts have been a substantial part of aviation history.   Personally, I have zero time and energy for intellectual property battles in courts, but I have very much energy to discern invention history; but results must remain personal satisfaction in simply "seeing" the flow of novelty; e.g. I just recently for five years put in thousands of hours on discerning novelty regarding an untenable claim of "invention" by John Dickenson under the campaign of his admirer Graeme Henderson; by yelling and threats they won untenable awards by wimpy organizations which orgs had very low scrutiny for professional facts regarding invention; so another false history branch has been created in aviation where a non-invention gets awarded as invention. My gain in the battle has been a happy seeing of the more factual flow of invention in that hang gliding aviation sector; but the robbery of merit is still standing in infamy.  Sad and happy joys mixed in the fuzzy world of merits and "history."       I am still struggling to know what novelty you hold or not in "Vertical Blinds."  And I guess it will be years before I personally am clear about the matter; but my clarity or not will probably have no effect on the flow of money in AWE or Kite Energy. 

  • Will some AWE companies simply look for ways to bless early IP promoters and inventors?   I do not see much evidence for such in the Magenn-SWP-Makani-Joby-NTS-Ampyx-BaseLoad group.   But I do some some "cooperative" benevolence in the KiteLab Group arena where IP may be blessed without having to do big battles; but the hard gusts have yet to hit the fan, if you will. 

  • Can the AWE and Kite Energy industry fly and flourish without there being court battles?    I doubt it; there will be battles and actual inventors may well not be in the winning circles of those battle settlements; money clout and patent trails might win, even if the patent trails might be full of invalid novelty claims.      However, there may be a big win for the world when Kite Energy Systems end up flying and replacing coal and oil to large extent!  Everyone will win when AWE has its full flowering on earth.   

  • The meaning of CC IP       and the meaning of    CC BY NC SA          are items to be studied;  I personally yet struggle to know the meaning of these two respect flows.  
Best of lift to you and yours in this adventure!
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8645 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
Clarification to Doug, etc.-

I do not know of any reason to predict the SuperTurbine is the best WECS to hang under a Mothra, but it should be tested, with Doug allowed to give it his best shot.

The best WECS for Mothra use is an open question to determine by testing all sorts of methods and devices, to see how they do in direct comparison. It does seem to me the SuperTurbine faces severe scaling limitations, and the operational issues are worrisome. I personally think only FlipWings, or bulk motion of a Mothra, currently promise to megascale (~km scale). 

Its clear that many or our AWES ideas work, but none are well explored and optimized. An "inferior" idea may provide the basis for early AWES effectiveness, only to be later supplanted by an optimized dominant solution (like the transition from biplane to monoplane). 

The KiteLab Group AWES R&D philosophy is consistent- Test Everything, even if you think a given concept is not a promising solution. Test Everything, to put bad ideas to rest (and to put frauds out-of-business). Test Everything, because even bad ideas teach fine lessons to an alert expert.

Of all the early AWE players, KiteLab Group is most open to whatever AWES solution emerges from upcoming due-diligence comparative testing ("own the casino"). Most players are betting all blindly on their pet architectural scheme.





 




==========================
I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8646 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8647 From: Rod Read Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters
Joe,
I have absolutely no trust in nor respect for the patent system...
It's a nonsense when global information searching is freely available and globally prolific. (With minimal exception, and I can't imagine many governments sensor the AWE yahoo group and kitepowercoop.org)

If any party is seriously interested in or studying AWE systems they will find out about this forum.

I have a new massive actuation whole mothra stack flap movement design I will work on... basically setting the beast body still and whipping the wings upward... bird flight mimic power.
cc3.0 BY NC SA  (Attribute, Non commercial, Share Alike)
Creative Commons Licence
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.

It may be that a commons based peer production license would be better / more appropriate... not sure.

There are a bunch of Open Source Hardware licenses to choose from
I can't see anyone being able to defend patent novelty against the data filed and posted on this site.
This forum is in the collective conscience of all AWE developers we know of.
It is a phenomenal resource for research and It should be respected as such.

Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8648 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
Let's be clear.
A mothra model will be able to track the wind automatically without anything more complex than a few rope riding trolleys tied around inside the anchoring rope circle.
Mr Santos, I challenge you to an open-off. It's not really the open thing to boast about personal openness.
He he he
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8649 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Relay transport
Relay transport of goods and people:
Drive holder to be fetched by the adjacent system; adjacent system takes hold of the goods; then that new holder drives to meet the next system. Etc.
Transport goods and people around the earth by using nearly independent kite systems, but enough adjacent to effect transfers. 
This is just one method of transport by kite system. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8650 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Resources Explorer
Patent was approved.
Marco Aurelio Baptista De Almeida Freire
Tiago Da Costa Duarte Pardal


Patent granted: 
US 8247912
US8247912

Publication numberUS8247912 B2
Publication typeGrant
Application number12/302,435
Publication dateAug 21, 2012
Filing dateMay 31, 2007
Priority date
May 31, 2006
Also published as
Inventors
Applicant
U.S. Classification
International Classification
European Classification
F03D 5/00
F03D 11/04
F03D 11/00E
F03D 11/00F
Less «
ReferencesPatent Citations (13)
External Links
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8651 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German
In 2003 we see a cousin-Vertical-Blinds description, if you will, by Wayne German, which we quote him here from rcuniverse posting: 

===2003== by Wayne German: =

Arch ARTAGs 

Large commercial enterprises could attach numerous large kites on both sections of a tether loop that loops between a generator and a pulley. A generator would be in one anchored boat and a pulley would be in the other. 

1. The tether would pass through a generator on one anchored boat, 
2. Through a long arch in the sky, 
3. To the pulley in another anchored boat, 
4. Through another long arch in the sky, 
5. Back to the generator again, and 
6. The long arches in the sky would have numerous large kites equally spaced, 
7. And the kites would be synchronized by radio, 
8. To roll in directions that would cause the tether to pull in the same direction, 
9. Such that the kites on one arch would roll one direction, and 
10. The kites on the other arch would roll in the other direction, and 
11. The kites on one arch would have a higher angle of attack, and 
12. The kites on the other arch would have a lower angle of tack, 
13. So that there would always be a safe distance between the two arches to avoid collisions, but 
14. The kites would be inflatable, 
15. So they would generally bounce rather than crash in the case of a collision, and 
16. The arches are arranged perpendicular to the prevailing winds. 

< Message edited by wlgerman -- 12/10/2003 4:08:05 AM 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8652 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters
Yes, the patent and venture-capital models are broken, but a Golden Age of Mass-Collaboration has dawned. Wayne is now far more likely to get support from a grateful AWE open-business movement (us), out of simple decency and fairness, than he is likely to succeed in the shark-tank with a patent, its defense, and the IP monetization hurdle.

The latest Mothra work Rod is doing is wonderfully compelling. Mothra tech an prime example of an AWES architecture evolved openly in a large group (~50 direct contributors) likely dominating over concepts developed in secret by far better funded ventures. The explosive open biz model seems capable of blowing-the-doors-off of all closed-source AWE players, if only we keep attracting ever more fine folks into the open circle. A true AWES winner will not need IP royalties, given a leadership position in a profitable open tech solution.

Crowd-sourced AWE is simply the best game we have-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_collaboration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_business
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8653 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters

"Wayne is now far more likely to get support from a grateful AWE open-business movement (us)"

So Wayne is not among us...But who is "us"?Probably not me,since I have some patents,and I respect as much the patent system as the open-source.Patent system and open-source are the two legs of R&D for AWE as for the other fields.

 

PierreB

 






 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8654 From: dave santos Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Who is Us? //Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
Pierre,

By "Us" is meant the growing AWES Mass-Collaboration Open-Circle. Patent holders are included in the open Patent Pool plan, as part of the collaboration.

Wayne is a close friend who has shared his ideas with the world far longer and better than most AWES developers with patents. He does not have any of his own patents, due to poverty. Since you can afford to secure AWE patents, you are obviously not as poor as Wayne. 

If you get even richer by enforcing your AWE patents on a desperate world (out of "respect" for patents), you might generously choose to help indigent AWE pioneers like Wayne, to help correct the moral unfairness of patent availability based on economic class; to really prove to be one of the glorious "Us".

If your patents never pay, and worse, cost you your life-savings, then AWE Open-Circles will hopefully remember and help you,

daveS








==========================
I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8655 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Sierra Magazine came close, but missed AWE
Sierra Magazine came close, but missed AWE

... maybe on their next visit with the wind they will find AWE.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8656 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: re: Who is Us?   //Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters

DaveS,

 

I do not pay so much for (and only French) patents because I have no attorney,and because I leave patents _ becoming open-source _ one after one before heavy taxes of preservation without utility since (in my sense) a patent has value no long time if no operation of the patent is made after 4 or 5 years from the application.

 

Note that AWE is the champion of not exploited patents.Where are specific patents for Ampyx,even Makani (excepted probably the last)?Due to the huge amount of prior art patents_as protection_ is not the ultimate key.Engineering is the key.

 

In my sense patent system is good and is used in the world when the produce is marketed.

 

Note also companies like Ampyx test probably other schemes or other ways before completely developping a single method.It is possible (but not sure) arches as AWES was not yet tested.But when a single method will be chose (if it is possible since there is not unanimity in the list) investors will be needed for a correct development.Perhaps a common patent for the chosen AWES will be better than "patent pool" since it is too hard to develop all concepts.

 

Note also a common point between cooperatives and startups:AWE is far of commercialisation,AWE does not produce money now.So startups can work as cooperatives and vice versa,startup being cooperatives with investments.But their CEO _ and investors _ often think marketed AWES is the next year,keeping the spirit of a startup.

PierreB   



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8657 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/22/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters
Thanks, Rod.
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Akoka-Yaba;
Lagos. Nigeria.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8658 From: Wayne German Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
Rod,
 
I personally think that those that conceive, architect, design, develop, deploy, test, represent, and sell projects should all be appropriately remumerated for their work don't you?   And shouldn't each of them be entitled to royalties or some sort or hourly wages or wages based on commissions?  Why would anyone commit to developing new and better concepts if their were no way of securing compensation for doing so?
 
Basically, the Chinese say that those who conceive deserve nothing for their efforts -- unless they work for a company that has enough financial and maufacturing clout that they are able to dominate their markets by selling more of their kinds of products at such high volumes tthat they are able to repel other companies from competing by being able to offer the best products at the lowest prices because new companies that might spring up will always have to chareg more for products until they learn to sell products in their "sweeet spots" -- even relative to other customers.
In other words, selling them for the right cost times the number of units -- but also relative to other customers.
 
While I am not too enamorred with patents and the patent office my self.  What I hear you guys saying (which may be different than what you are speaking) is all new ideas should be shared between the members of a core group, but why would anyone who has developed significant new concepts simply want to toss his ideas in the pool when less than a fourth of the members are likely going to have anything to toss in.  As one who has spent almost all of his spare time for 35 years building and developing our fraternities when there were a few only a few who were as commited shoild I not someday expect to receive compensation for my efforts for other people as much as myself/  Please explain how how it might happen that people in our fraternites might recompense each other faitly and appropriately for what they have done?  And if they choose not to then how can any of us have any confidence that the intellectual property that we share will be held securely and reeareded appropriately?
I am not complaining, but yoiu folks should know that there are people like me in our midst that have devoted most all of their spare time to pursue these technologies because it can and likely will be a ministry where the products that are sold to greatly bless others brings in enough profit to pay us reasonably and to contuniually make ever more products.  I see technology and manufacturing as ways to give people products that bless them and have ever more money to make more products to bless others.  Really Rod if we were to forgo patents and jujst toss them in a pool where likely only a few people contribute for everyone else, what reasonable, rational, system are you thinking that might possibly be fair to all -- and not just taking what those that conceive might donate to oher members of the group out of the kindness of their hearts.
 
Forgive me.  I got long winded and somehat redundant.  It's late and I have been working long hours.
 
-- Wayne
 
 
 
 
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPNManaging Consultant & CEOHardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Akoka-Yaba;
Lagos. Nigeria.
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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8659 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
One basic reason why life is not fair is that people have different talents.  A study of entrepreneurs http://www.wimp.com/helpsomeone/ found that no single person had ever been able to do a good job of product development, product promotion, and financial management.  So, partnerships are needed, and, unsurprisingly, the financial guys tend to wind up with more of the Rolls-Royces.  Actually, for them, a Rolex is functional - it helps establish status in that world, and improve effectiveness.  

Fortunately, our ideas of value also differ, and a good developer may be fully content with the appreciation of his peers and the means to direct research.  The money generated by AWE could turn into a full-time spending job for a whole platoon of ex wives - we don't need the distraction.  

The problem of how to work ethically, or at all, within the current business system is a thorny one.  Thousands of Linux developers seem to have wound up making a great gift to big business, and wasting the time of the individuals they hoped to empower.  Secrecy is clearly dysfunctional - Penicillin was just a lab curiosity for decades until the government forced the drug companies to pool their research.  Capitalism is also ultimately dysfunctional without constant, wise regulation from the whole community of life.  Currently, inefficiency and chaos are favoured, because they have been good for quarterly results so often, when the world had more reserves.  

I think the correct model, now that we have the 'net, is for the government to tax industries that do little good and pollute, to support all creative workers on the basis of how much they have been copied.  Those whose creative experiments were more expensive would get more money to recognize that.  Money is actually a lousy incentive for an inventor http://www.wimp.com/surprisingmotivation/ 
So far, it has only been chaos around wealth that has occasionally funded benevolent research.  I think we can do better than having most of the money in the hands of very few people who don't really care about the rest.  That does offend the sense of fairness, and inhibit sharing.

Bob Stuart

On 23-Feb-13, at 2:32 AM, Wayne German wrote:


Bob Stuart
Sent from The Country Formerly Known as Nice.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8660 From: Doug Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German
Sounds nice. These are good descriptions. I don't think the "clothesline" / laddermill concept should be given up on, in the unlimited forms it might take. Steady-state operation is good. Airfoils traveling in a circuit is good. One thing that you grow to appreciate about a propeller though is it can keep spinning for years and nothing wears out. Stresses don't vary much withing the rotating frame of reference. That's why vertical axis machines always shake themselves apart - the stresses vary and continually reverse in all reference frames.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8661 From: Rod Read Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Intellectual property matters //Public Notice from Wayne German
To make that description work.
For the arch to be driving (clockwise front looking from upwind) it needs downwind depth and stacked height , to present lifting profiles on every point moving clockwise ... ( a minimum of 2 lines and a means to control (or re-tie at junctions) kites mounted on those lines)
A roller tensioning system (akin to printing press mechanisms) Or line cross banding is needed to maintain the relative tensions of the kites.
And worst of all the kite has to flip from clockwise to anti clockwise.... can rollers balance the tension of tighter kite RHS line clockwise and tighter kite LHS line returning anticlockwise?

It's not a bad thought experiment though....
If you consider a conical toroidal band made of string & sheet framework, which inflates and lifts clockwise when held and driving clockwise .... It can be held aloft at points by hollow truncated cone funnel buckets.
If the funnels were periodically set under an arch, (more open to anticlockwise side) and a band of the sheet and string framework threaded through them... A simple pulley / mesh gear could extract spun band energy.

lofted pulleys ... probably better than teflon bucket inners... don't know.

guess I need to draw that

cc3.0

Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8662 From: dave santos Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Intellectual property matters
Wayne asked-

"What I hear you guys saying ... is all new ideas should be shared [freely and openly], but why would anyone who has developed significant new concepts simply want to toss his ideas in the pool when less than a fourth of the members are likely going to have anything to toss in (?)" 

Answers-

- Generous sharing of a "cognitive surplus" (teaching).
- Global Crisis trumping petty greed.
- To get valuable critique and added value from suggestions.
- Because a new culture of open and fairer CC IP is fast emerging.
- To avoid high expenses related to stealth IP (Even Pierre cannot afford a legal "patent war").
- To leave an auditable trail of date priority faster than stealth IP.
- Because so much prior art exists, and no known "secret" is clearly defensible.

One can go on and on making a rational case for the AWES Forum... buts lets just focus on the R&D job we have undertaken (RAD- Rapid AWE Development), and see how great it may go.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8663 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
If riding trolleys are not anchored they will be taken out by the
traction of the arch;and if they are anchored,they cannot move or turn.

An arch has two ends,so its orientation according to wind direction is
not practical.

PierreB



--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread"
<rod.read@... anything more complex than a few rope riding trolleys tied around inside
the anchoring rope circle.
thing to boast about personal openness.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8664 From: dave santos Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Arch Rotation Correction //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturbine
Pierre,

You wrote- "An arch has two ends, so its orientation according to wind direction is
not practical."

Correction- KiteLab Austin tested several kite arch anchor belay methods, and found them all to work, showing that orienting arches to match changing wind direction is very practical. Also note that wind direction is very stable in many windy places most of the year (like common sea breezes and gap winds), so even if rotating arches were a real problem, they would still work well in the right locations (including offshore, where easy arch rotation looks particularly favored).

Rotating arches by belay only requires "practical skills"; belay skills such as are found in industrial rigging, sailing, mountain climbing, and so forth. 

Please be careful never to miss-state pessimistic AWES conjectures as facts, when contrary evidence is abundant,

daveS

PS Does securing patents and dependence on complex UAV methods amount to a practical early strategy to AWE success? You get to be a an experimental subject (a "living test"), of those conjectures, just as KiteLab Austin is of megascale arch practicality conjectures :)
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8665 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
An arch, can reach high into the air.
It's control can be close to the ground. .. But essentially does not have to be on the ground.

The feet of an arch can be set on a trolley.
If the trolley rides a rail or rope ring... (As in this simplified video I made a while ago )

Say a more of these carriages are tightly linked by rope around the upwind side of the rail ring all the way to the next foot carriage...
Then the arch will weathercock automatically.

Better still if the carriages go all the way round, so the feet can be set at close to the max rail ring diameter for max power... yet far enough downwind for weathercocking like a drogue.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8666 From: Doug Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
Wayne, this is the problem with newbie peanut-gallery bystander wannabe innovators with enthusiasm but no mastery of the art:
They have nothing to offer besides enthusiasm and busy-body-ness, and so they first (attempt to) declare "a new system" where "all things of value will be shared equally".

It is now well-known that the communist system was designed merely to tear down the previous order of ownership, to pave the way for a McDonalds & KFC on every corner - so much for "sharing everything equally", last I knew the world's biggest "communist" nation had a huge population of newly-minted billionaires! "Share everything equally until I own it" would be the complete statement.

The "share everything equally" is a way to get those who HAVE something to give it up. The next stage is "well maybe we SHOULD have SOME individual property"... while the people previously saying everything should be shared begin to explain why THEY now own everything "well things change, things evolve - gotta keep up with the times, can't live in the past - that system of sharing everything didn't work out as planned..."

In short, coming into a situation with nothing and advocating that everything be shared can be a way of taking control.

Anyway, like technology, the field of law has a long history, and what we have today is a result of thousands of years of finding out what "works" - sound familiar anyone?
The result includes our patent system, which I agree can be a pain in the butt like anything worth doing.

Having said all that, I can tell you from personal experience that it may hardly matter! When you have teams as (apparently) stupid as the people at Honeywell for example, promoting a "regular" (non-flying) wind turbine as BAD as what they have (patent protected of course!), and then look at all the rest of the intellectual GARBAGE that clogs our patent system, you might scratch your head and begin to wonder how valuable patents really ARE.

Think about it: from whale bumps to eccentric-and-bored ole' grandpa's flapping plywood merry-go-round, thousands and thousands of patents describe apparatus that barely works, if at all. What's the use? One thing I learned is to develop the shit first and patent it after you see how it works. Otherwise you end up having to file more patents after you actually figure out what you're doing. Shit seems obvious once you start building and testing. Before that, all ideas may seem equal when only on paper - "Sure, that would work easily" transitions to "Oh I didn't know it would do THAT!" and "Why can't we get these things to hold together?".

I was warned early on not to get too attached to patents. People told me how most patents expire worthless, which we have all heard. People told me the greater value was being first to market, or even just being IN the market at all, instead of just in dreamland! Like one more vertical axis professor crackpot, I listened, but didn't listen. Now I have a LOT of patents, and orders coming in for products - and most of the products people order from me are not even patented! They are just generators and electronics that I have not even looked into patenting because I'm too busy making them! People buy what works. For everything else you need grants and subsidies, conferences, hand-waving and happy-talk. Government programs. Like the supposed "communism" (similar to "cool I.P."), it can all only go on for so long before nature retakes the helm. Remember that story "Animal Farm" where "all animals were equal... some just more than others"? Cool I.P., Animal Farm. Sounds nice like the pilgrims sharing all their food - they almost died that first winter til they resumed personal production, personal responsibility, and personal ownership the next year.

The factor I was not taking into account is that it is SO ridiculously hard to get ANY wind energy device to last through the first decent wind, let alone hang in there year after year through storm after storm, that I find myself about to offer a simple single-rotor turbine kit that will run forever and never burn out. Why? Because after decades of clean&green hype, there STILL to this day does not EXIST an affordable and reliable small wind energy system. Affordable? Yes. Reliable? Yes - but NOT in the same package. Today you can obtain EITHER an affordable small wind system OR a reliable one that will cost as much as a house, and still possibly require service but after spending that much you will pony up the additional cash.

Next, let me tell you about my friend Andy who started the biggest small wind turbine company in the world and today doesn't even work for them. Why? They could NEVER in decades of trying, get a reliable machine out there. Every model they ever produced had major problems, and the company slowly floundered as they drowned in warranty returns, while VC's salivated and companies like GE capital injected as much as $10 million to keep them afloat.

Last I talked to anyone at SouthWest Windpower they had sold off every model they ever developed except the still-problematic Skystream. Their entire Whisper line was sold to a company in India. Despite Southwest sending an engineer over to help, they cannot seem to turn out even a single decent version of a Southwest turbine in India. Again, everyone thinks this stuff is easy - NO Virginia, a harbor-freight level of quality WILL NOT cut it in wind energy - you need the very best of the best, not cut corners. Southwest told me they would start sending people to me for replacement blades hand made from wood since the buyers in India also seem unable to make a decent blade. Sounds crazy but I didn;t make this up - heard it from the source!

So, try to find a small wind turbine that is not a big basket of problems. Go ahead and search across the countryside. I'd love to hear from that happy customer who is saving on his electric bill and has had no problems for years with his small wind turbine. Then meanwhile, worry about what patents you do or don't have for crap you will never build anyway. Right? Like U.Delfts patented a laddermill yet never built one? Why? Chicken? Its ridiculous that nobody has tried a laddermill yet. Laddermill - one of a hundred easy-to-build airborne wind energy concepts that would probably work the first time! (Work? Yes. Last a long time? Not right away. Crash? probably. Then the work starts - model after model til something hangs in there long enough to still be there the next morning.

Ironically, SouthWest Windpower DID have ONE reliable model of turbine. Today it is orphaned - they couldn't get a taker for the one that just worked. Why? Not enough lies. Investors in wind energy mostly respond to lies about performance that is too good to be true. To hear about the performance numbers of a turbine that just works and just runs for years with no problems doesn't sound like enough power compared to the next model up the line that bites off more wind than it can chew, and quickly fails. Well they quickly failed before, butn ow they just don't even work! That's why it can be good to keep production home. Once it is in a different time zone, people just revert to their primitive ways and produce junk unless someone is there to babysit, or so I keep hearing over and over, at "conferences" where people who own IP discuss how they sometimes make money off it.

Anyway the only person I know who ever made any money in small wind did it by building and selling a cheap turbine, that was not well-designed and did not perform well. The reason he made a couple million is he at least had SOMETHING to sell in that price range while everyone else was filing patents, preparing grant applications for flawed technology, and attending conferences!

So anyway, yeah I think laddermill, in any of the myriad forms one could endlessly cook up, is a promising idea. The fact that a major university patented it yet never built one is just how the field of wind energy IS -0 most big talkers and very few people who really understand it or are really willing to build anything that is not a waste of time. I mean really, why would one patent a laddermill and then never build one? By what mental deficiency would one go on to take a giant step backward from that, to "I think I feel a pull on this kite string" level of thinking?

Well truth is stranger than fiction. I think if someone realy wanted to test a laddermill, they might consider using a kite at the upper end, since it is simple. I do not see how a kite arch necessarily adds anything to the equation at that stage, and really, it reduces the overall utility by insuring that it would be more difficult or impossible to aim. Sure, add a giant rotating spar and you just negated the supposed advantage of the kite arch: needing no spar.

Most would-be wind energy inventors are very insistent that their untested designs are "the answer". Because the designs ARE untested, the promoters assign ANY desired behavior and just assume the real apparatus will follow their wishes. Most of them are disturbed when they start taking steps like connecting generators to their ideas. THat;s when they start to realize that their dumb ideas don't really make ANY power, let alone outperform the GE 1.5 Mw turbine.

So, I guess you have people building real wind energhy systems, airborne or not, and you have the peanut gallery of would-be, wannabe innovators who seldom build anything, produce no wind power, and want to spend all day every day arguing about fundamentals worked out hundreds ofy ears ago such as whether to use lift or drag, whether to try for "crosswind" performance, whether to use flipping or flapping behavior, and indeed whether a patent system is desirable or should be taken seriously.

It is good to question ingrained paradigms every so often, but to question all of them all the time and never move forward is just treading water and never swimming anywhere!

Speaking of treading water, I think I just wasted another hour, yakety-yaking on the internet, that could have been productive!
if I were smart I would pay attention and stop. So you can see I am dumb too. :)
:)
Doug S.
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Wayne German <waynelgerman@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8667 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: Show to see and study !
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8668 From: harry valentine Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: AWE & Stricken Cruise Ships
You are all aware of the stricken cruise ship that got towed into the Port of New Orleans a little more than a week ago. It was the latest in a string of engine failures aboard cruise ships worldwide. When the engine shuts off, there is a desperate need for auxiliary power generation.

Wind turbines on deck could sustain the operation of LED lighting systems. An Ampyx wind-driven glider could sustain the operation of a water pump. There may even be application for a deck-tower mounted multi-rotor super-turbine (or an airborne version) that could provide some auxiliary power to drive air-conditioning and refrigerator systems, water pumps, lighting systems and even elevators.


Harry
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8669 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/23/2013
Subject: re: Arch Rotation Correction  //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturb
Attachments :

    Arch rotation requires an important device like a circuit on rail where the two trolleys move with arch (see schema).Arch control is assured on trolleys with winches allowing the arch to take another position,being able to flight crosswind and generating much more energy.Motion of trolleys generates both electricity and orientation according to wind direction.The circuit of rail is similar in circuits for NTS or carousel.What are lighter solutions with anchor belay (I do not understand the modus operanti on video)?

     

    PierreB



      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8670 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: re: Arch Rotation Correction  //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra and Superturb

    "being able to flight crosswind and generating much more energy" or rather being able to deform generating motion within the arch be able (perhaps,but I do not know how) to work a generator.

    An arch or another system can be an advantageous AWES if additional needed devices are not too heavy and expensive.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     





     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8671 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
    you could save time by cutting and pasting old messages again Doug.
    select the rant text you want then CTRL-C to copy come back to the forum and CTRL-V to paste.
    Please don't

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8672 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: Show to see and study !
    The last one would need quite a few pulleys to keep the wheel in place.
    But it's an idea.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8673 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: AWE & Stricken Cruise Ships
    A simple ready to inflate (RIB boat like)band fixed around the ship above the water line would stop them sinking in emergencies too.

    It could be used as a permanent fender...
    retrofitted to any boat...
    is it done... what ? no!
    who knows why? probably looks too ugly and scares off customers.

    bands around boats ready to inflate like airbags in emergencies...
    please someone make it soon.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8674 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch Rotation Correction  
    Pierre,

    Again, you are asserting uninformed pessimism as fact- "Arch rotation requires an important device like a circuit on rail..."

    Arches definitely do not need circle tracks or rails! The KiteLab Anchor-Belay Methods were specifically developed to avoid the capital-cost of such structure, and have been well proven in flight testing. We made a winched cable trolley for Mothra1, and it worked as expected between anchors, but was not really needed, as the tests of yet simpler methods proved. Note also that kite arches tolerate the small common windshifts within larger slower weather patterns.

    The simplest practical rotation method was shown to work; to rig a second line from the arch end to the new anchor. The first line is eased as the second is winched in. Only slightly more complex is to use two pulleys and a crossline to use the arch's own forces to rotate between anchors. No winches at all are needed, if this method is mastered. Its very strange that you have come to believe in dependence on complex UAV methods (for smaller AWES), but cannot accept that simple ancient rigging methods are even more capable (for far larger AWES). 

    For a similarity-case, the Dol de Bretagne menhir (megalith) in France was raised by simple rigging methods thousands of years ago, and modern industrial winches and cranes now do such work far faster. The common pace of large frontal wind shifts every few days will be easy to keep up with by basic industrial belay methods for rotating megascale arches. Its true that belay needs roustabout workers, but they need jobs.

    Then there is the rolled up rotation method and the "fly up and rotate" method. Circle tracks will be nice, but far more expensive, if the full load must be maintained at any point on the track. Perhaps a light track to move unloaded rigging elements from anchor-to-anchor is a good design compromise.

    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8675 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [AWES] Intellectual property matters
    Rod,

    I thought this was Doug's masterpiece screed to date, and especially enjoyed the Orwellian abuse of Orwell himself (in claiming that Joe and my knowledge-sharing as CoolIP is "Animal Farm"). For Doug to equate personal generosity with totalitarian communism is the death-rattle of American alarmist McCarthyism.

    Its worth noting that KiteLab Ilwaco did build and test simple laddermill rigs, which worked briefly between turbulent gusts that tended to twist the loop trains into fouled states. So Doug is wrong to think no one bothers to actually work with such ideas (It is sad TUDelft did not do more to test its ideas all-up.).

    There was in fact a rich vein of distilled conventional wind power wisdom in Doug's post. The limits of this fine experience was only evident in the pondering of kite arches, which are the primary means to stabilize vast soft kite structure. To answer the question posed, kite arches allow us to stabilize (passive control) airborne structures megascaled far beyond anything rigid. 

    A KiteLab soft kite arch conjecture is that the inherent megascaling potential must be realized to hope to trounce modern HAWT economics. Small arches will not directly compete with utility power, even though small soft kite AWES will have favorable pricing and power-to-weight for off-grid uses,

    daveS
     




    ==========================
    I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
    that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
    Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8676 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

    DaveS,

     

    An arch anchored according to a simple rigging method (one line after the two lines linking a _ huge for the arch_ spar) becomes...a simple kite.In other words if an arch has only one final anchor,it is not more an arch,or an arch like current lei kites.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     






     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8677 From: harry valentine Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Ball-bearing gears - possible AWE application
    With regard to kites producing push-pull movements at ground-level, some AWE people may be aware of the recirculating ball steering gear . .  . a nut and bolt with ball-bearings between the threads to reduce friction. The mechanism also has industrial applications .  .  . large-diameter, extended-length threaded members with a threaded 'nut' with recirculating ball-bearings.

    A pair of these recirculating ball bearing mechanisms (companion left-hand rotation and right-hand rotation screw threads) could be activated by a technology such as an Ampxy kite .  .  . the use of one-way roller clutches and flywheel could keep the generator rotating in one direction. The kite may pull in one direction while a spring or counter-weight would pull in the opposite direction when the kite is in 'relaxed' mode.

    Haeey
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8678 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

    Pierre,

    Note that "arch END" below allows for the fact that an arch has TWO "ends" (just as a rainbow does). 

    "...to rig a second line from the arch end to the new anchor."

    Note that an "Anchor Circle" is the exact method, so a kite arch without a track can have many anchors, even if only two are used most of the time,

    daveS

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8679 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Arch Rotation Correction  

    DaveS,

     

    "Note that "arch END" below allows for the fact that an arch has TWO "ends"".

    Yes of course,I agree,and there is the problem (read again my two precedent posts).

     

    But if there is no track,let us try an "Anchor Circle",OK.So how each anchor is linked to the arch,with the same lines or with other lines?And is an inherent control (without or with little control by software) really possible?

     

    Probably the arch is the best AWES possible,but it can generate,like all AWES,some small difficulties.I see at less one small difficulty:the orientation according to wind direction requires an additional device,track or "Anchor Circle".Another bigger difficulty is making power by flapping.

     

    You will "correct" me and you will have the last word,but these questions will be put by all those who will wish to get involved in the project.I precise again the questions:

    1) Are the advantages of the arch self-important to compensate for the addition of an important device of orientation?

    2) What are _ at least since there is no prototype _ simulations about the efficiency for a flapping arch?

     

     

    PierreB  



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8680 From: dave santos Date: 2/24/2013
    Subject: Global Hawk Large UAS AWES Similarity Case
    AWES prototypes based on modern large "drone" tech will be impressive machines with a big problem- They will cost a fortune, promptly lost if flown hard, due to inherent unreliability. Its clear that cost-effective reliability of AWES based on this paradigm will take a long time.

    The DIY Drones website is said to have 30,000 members, but not one has yet replied to Pierre's invitation to discuss AWE. There is a multicultural disconnect to overcome, for the best "conventional" UAV folks to join an AWE world dominated by kite and rigging methods (like the late great Dr. MacCready almost did). We do have a handful UAV experts in our circle; enough to caution the novices.

    The Global Hawk drone and Makani M600 AWT are in the same general size class. Whatever the mission particulars, out-of-this-world costs and spectacular crashes are inherent to such technology. Makani proposes many capabilities beyond what the Hawk can ever do (like aerobatic E-VTOL). A review of the Global Hawk program offers comparative economic and operational insights into the scope of what Makani engineers are proposing to do by 2015-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_Hawk
     
    High Complexity AWES design will be a terrible trap for many pioneers, until the reliability-payback metrics start to converge in a decade or two.