Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8429to8479 Page 66 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8429 From: dave santos Date: 1/13/2013
Subject: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8430 From: dave santos Date: 1/13/2013
Subject: Shell Oil in AWE (connecting more dots)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8431 From: edoishi Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8432 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Towered-focused WECS and AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8433 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Towered-focused WECS and AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8434 From: christopher carlin Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8435 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8436 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8437 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8438 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8439 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8440 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8441 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Fraunhofer Society & Munich Technical University AWES Studies Underw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8442 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Windswept and Interesting Limited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8443 From: dave santos Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8444 From: dave santos Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Airborne Harmonic Nodes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8445 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8446 From: Bob Stuart Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8447 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8448 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Re: Airborne Harmonic Nodes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8449 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: encouraging avenues for investment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8450 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Airborne Architecture, Kite-based Architecture has cousin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8451 From: edoishi Date: 1/18/2013
Subject: AWE documentary on kickstarter

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8452 From: dave santos Date: 1/18/2013
Subject: Airborne Architecture Lesson from the Balinese Ram-Air Kite Traditio

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8453 From: dave santos Date: 1/19/2013
Subject: Easy Megascale-Arch Belay-Rotation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8454 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8455 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: kitelabgroup.com lapse?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8456 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: Simpler Easy-Belay Rotation of a MegaScale Arch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8457 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: Building the Legal Case for AWE CC IP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8459 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: KiteLabGroup and KitePilotSchool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8460 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Take 5; give 5; the angels are coming. AWE !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8461 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Forum Welcome-Wagon (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Director)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8462 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Nylon Blues (hydroscopic behavior)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8463 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8464 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8465 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8466 From: christopher carlin Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8467 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Soros Fund Money and Fraunhofer Technical Due Dilgence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8468 From: Rod Read Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8469 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8470 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8471 From: Bob Stuart Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8472 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Boar

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8473 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: Unified AWE Action Plan. (The Time Is Now!)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8474 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8475 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8476 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8477 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8478 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8479 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Breaking the Log-Jam (Fair Warning for Unfair Competitors in AWE)




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8429 From: dave santos Date: 1/13/2013
Subject: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case
Ocean sailing is wind power as transportation, but key lessons apply to site-based AWES design. We see that membrane sails, whatever their defects, are clearly scalable, and that Mothra-rigged kites closely duplicate classical sailing qualities, but in the sky, without spars or hull needed.

About a dozen historical sailing ships reached a megascale sail area of 5000-7000m2. The largest of these, the 1902 Preussen, was 150m long by 70m high. These dimensions are in the scale class of the largest new HAWTs, but these ships were especially impressive as globally mobile platforms. The nature of the sailing rigs and the transport dynamic required a large crew, so the Preussen had 45 sailors. Direct sailing duties were comparable in scope with the constant maintenance. Several late Windjammers, with steel hulls and rigging, and simplified sailplans, cut relative crew needs in half.

To rate the equivalent power of a sailing ship with a power plant entails an inexact guesstimate. We use HAWT comparisons for a rough idea. Allowing that the sails where not as lift-efficient by area, and operated a lower apparent-to-real-wind speed ratio, but also allowing for the far greater area set (sweep v. solidity), and the effective use of greater drag-force, suggests a rough parity in power by streamtube cross-section, in the "most probable wind" range. Other major factors similarly cancel- the modern HAWT operates a bit higher, but a ship lives in better offshore wind. Overall, we give the efficiency edge to the modern HAWT, but we can say that megascale sailing ships nominally rate around 10MW, and likely even outclass any HAWT yet.

Loyd long ago asked, "How large can kites be made?" Large sailing ships give us clues. Mothra style "tall ships in the sky" seem to face no barrier to far outscaling the mighty Preussen or any HAWT. We count on better materials and reach better wind than the tallest tower. Fully tensile soft-kite methods are already proven to scale to
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8430 From: dave santos Date: 1/13/2013
Subject: Shell Oil in AWE (connecting more dots)
We expect oil companies to enter AWE for both diversification and greenwash motives, and its happening without much notice. These companies are so big, the AWE activities tend to happen in an uncoordinated piecemeal fashion. One oil company stands out as a considerable low-profile actor in AWE; Royal Dutch Shell, the largest company in the world, by revenue. 

We noted a loose Shell connection when Allister Furey's Red Kite Energy sought a Shell Livewire Award. But we mostly overlooked that TUDelft AWE work tapped Shell (and Dutch gas utility) funding starting years ago (The Economist, April 2007)-

http://www.economist.com/node/8952080

"Wubbo Ockels of the Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands has been developing another approach to airborne wind generation at lower altitude, with backing from Royal Dutch Shell and Nederlandse Gasunie, a natural-gas company."

The article documents some badly slipping timelines, suggestive of failure to make the needed AWES architectural paradigm shifts.

Aympx spun out of the TUDelft program, and now we see a well connected Shell exec as its business director. Prior to working for Aympx, Wolbert Aallart was Investment Director of Shell Technology Ventures and General Manager Business Development of Shell Renewables. 

Wolbert was a surprise visitor at an AWEIA/AWEC meeting in Brussels last week. His is a new face, a possible game-changer, but seemingly walled-in by cliquish AWEC politics, possibly contractually stuck drinking High-Complexity kite plane Kool Aid.*

No doubt there is more going on than we can see or get to know about, but we watch and await further developments. In the TUDelft-Ampyx case, we see Shell harmlessly engaged in scale-limited AWES architectures, rather than poised to win a monopolistic role by a sharper strategy. This gives open-circles more time to organize alternative biz models.

===============================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8431 From: edoishi Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case
There is a trend towards sailing cargo considering fuel prices, pollution/climate change and the trend towards fair trade as can be seen at these links among others -

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/12/tech/sailing-green-merchant-ship/index.html

http://sailtransportnetwork.com/

some cargo may benefit from a slower time across the pond, like aged cheese, wine, etc.. even timber...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8432 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Towered-focused WECS and AWES
How will patents with tower-focused WECS interplay with AWES where one
might see the kite tether set as "tower" for the exercise of claims?
For example, if interested, I placed two patents and two patent
applications by Tocher up into forum KitePatents for study. In reading
the four documents, I do not get the sense that Tocher had HAWP in mind
at all, but just what if the "riser" is a kite-tether set interpretation
and the lawyers commissioned to protect IP fold into HAWP with their
claims? The general interface with towered WECS and kite-lifted WECS
in IP might be huge. ~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8433 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Towered-focused WECS and AWES
I meant to give the link: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8434 From: christopher carlin Date: 1/14/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case
In terms of modern versions of this arrangement look up "Royal Clipper" built circa 2000. She operates with about 6 A/Bs. Note that maintenance is pretty minimal although adjustment is frequent. All but the the three main sails ( courses) are roller furled into the yard using hydraulic motors. I believe her drive engine is about 5000 HP pretty consistent with your 10MW. Also look into Windstar vessels similar size but smaller and much simpler rig requiring one deck officer to operate hydraulically. If anyone is interested in maintenance life data contacting the two lines involved might yield some sail life information. I'm guessing sail life is 2 or 3 years before the UV does for the cloth. The hydraulics and sensors and wiring probably have about 20 year life with some maintenance. I've crossed on both boats and although they are capable of performing well under sail under ideal conditions they're usually operated as sail assisted power vessels due to contrary winds and conservative captains. When you start extracting 10MW from sails you have the whole system up to a fairly ragged edge and a gust form say 30 knots to 40 knots tends to blow out sails (if they're tired) or cause the boat to roll enough to concern the passengers if not the captain. The result is that operationally the sails are seldom operated at their maximum extraction capability. 

From a kite size standpoint note that the total square footage is broken down into smaller pieces so I doubt the largest sail is over 1000m2, probably less. The other interesting thing to note as far as sailing ship size is concerned is that ships upwards of say 5000 GRT and 150m length - a very small ship by todays standards - requires more sail area than is practical to deploy at least on masts. The existing ships are pretty much designed around the world's major harbor bridges. Sailing vessel performance is pretty much dictated by Sail Area/Displacement. so 100,000 ton vessel would require 100,000m2 of sail - again very rough numbers. This in turn implies very tall masts or enormous kites. This is why the German kite experiments have been carried out on relatively small coastal freighters.

It seems to me the other issue in kite scaling is stress distribution. I've never looked into it but intuitively I would think as the kites get bigger they have to become more robust so I would think at some point there is a scaling limit. 

Regards,

Chris  
On Jan 13, 2013, at 9:05 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8435 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case
The lifetime of kite should be different according to stationary and crosswind flights.Are there some measures or estimations?
 
PierreB
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8436 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use
Pierre Benhaïem just introduced a question that could be a seed for a permanent topic thread that evolves over time. Kites in AWES may play different roles and be made of different materials while operating in various winds, climates, and dynamic modes.  In a specific application, kites will have a useful life.  Engineering a system and using the system will provide experience that may be used to alter next designs. 
Specificity is needed to know answers. Over-simplification could block useful choices. What is known? What may be known by testing? Where are/will experiences be well recorded for use by designers?
  • Environment of kite use? Climate? Air quality? Temperature? Latitude of operation? Moisture air?
    Sea spray? Post-metropolis air? Low-altitude air? High-altitude air?
  • Size of the AWES and its kites?
  • Dynamic mode of a specific kite? Passive lifter? Working high-cycle cross-winding?  Short-stroke jarring? Short-stroke pitching? Rotating?
  • Specific material use in a studied example for reporting?  Textile, sheet, hybrid, laminate?  Flexible or rigid?  Chemistry? Degree of ripstop or load-path netting involved? Sophistication of cover-fit-design to intended stress profile?
  • Will there be treatments of the kite materials during the life of the kites in an AWES? 
  • What treatments are in a studied example?
  • Is "repair" part of the consideration in a particular study? Nature of respected repairs?
  • Failure modes?  Are there tolerable failures versus intolerable failures?  Segment failure versus failure to massive breakaways with trailing tethers through cities?
  • Safety factors?  Cost of actually reaching the end of system life during flight session?  
  • Inspection of system materials to assure that failure will not occur during flight session? Cost of such inspecting?
  • ?
Fully specify a system; then there will be a lifetime profile for that system. How well experiences are recorded will affect the evolution of designs.

Broad generalizations may be well-founded and valid or not. Data for generalizations would be a scientific plus!    
May this topic thread invite posts that move AWES forwarded effectively and efficiently.      What is already well known?   What needs to be discovered? COTS versus Nexts versus Unobtainiums?  Budget? Needed life? Expected life?  Safety factor?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8437 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Large Sailing Ships as MegaScale AWES Similarity Case
Hi Chris,

Wow, the Royal Clipper is a recreated wonder (if not exactly a clipper). Wind Star class boats are banal by comparison, but all modern sailing ships show an amazing reduction in crew need compared to the Golden Age of Sail. My guess is that the image-conscious cruise lines tend to replace sails when they look dingy and patched, rather than when they are truly worn out. I looked at global UV, and Roddy seems to live in the best place of any of us (Isle of Lewis), with 1/5 the UV of tropical hot-spots. In a low-UV location, sails might be more fatigue limited than UV vulnerable.*

The guess of 10MW "equivalent rating" for a windjammer class boat is looser still, since HAWT ratings are based on wind higher than "most probable" wind for most locations. "10" was rounded up to help calculate with fingers and toes. We know also, that near Hull-Speed, engine or sail power can double, but you don't get much more speed, although more power extractable by, say, towing a second hull or turbine ( a grunt-power mode).

As for the modular sail units characteristic of these ships, Mothra kite design sizes the tarp sails in manageable units below the likely failure-prone unit-scale. This "divide and conquer" design strategy has key advantages in localizing damage to a single unit, as a rip-stop feature, and also enabling quick easy replacement (even hot-swapping aloft someday soon). Since Drag-Force is a major classic kite principle, the sail can blow out of shape quite a bit without excessive loss of power. We know that some creep of our polymers only makes them better performing, which is why slowly prestretched kitelines are preferred. It may be that we someday rotate Mothra sails according to this lifecycle effect.

You mention "stress distribution" of  big rigs. The Mayan hammock is a good model of a (human-rated) tensile net that passively distributes loads in a highly optimal way, by its diagonal Bias Construction. In our favor, the larger the kite, the smaller the characteristic turbulence scales, which means most disturbances are subscale, and cancel. There are many other megascaling fudge-factors and caveats, such as the design option to reduce frontal solidity (increase porosity), and reducing sail (furling) during storms, but our modern cloth materials are truly amazing, over an order of magnitude stronger than cotton and wire rope by weight, which is way-strong. 

Where it gets exciting is that the (crudely) calculated scaling limits of a Mothra rope-loadpath network (the "rigging") in a tree-like branching pattern seem to at least match or even exceed the troposphere height scale of about 10,000m. This is the wonder of scaling a quasi 2D structure in our 3D world. There is a progressive scaling limit, but it gathers slowly.

Its our sail handling ability that seems to scale-limit us more than anything. We may need winches power-rated beyond any machinery yet devised, although a lot can be done by a line pay-out strategy ("push" turning, trimming) and cascaded killing. We know some "power-amplifier" mechanisms made by rigging methods.

It must be wonderful to sail on even the more soulless modern tall ships. A motley fleet of mostly Hollywood-built square riggers used to visit our small Port of Ilwaco here on the Lower Columbia, but the channel has silted and shoaled, and federal funds for dredging were cut, thwarting my stowaway plans :(

daveS

PS Pierre, Kite life should be closely comparable according to "realtive wind", crosswind or not. There is a greatly accelerated aging in higher relative wind, with even short load-peak events having a drastic effect. It pays to protect our sails by careful use.

----------------------------
World UV Map-

http://www.soda-is.com/maps/world_uv_ab.png



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8438 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use
Inspection?
     We may well have sensors and smart logging of a kite's entire life's experience. And smart expert programs to read and analyze the data in order to have a keen status of the kite's materials' wearing load. Counts of gust events along with the strengths of those events will form part of the data profile.  Gradually predictions will improve. It may pay to work until tolerable fails occurs, but pay to withdraw production before intolerable fails occur.  Large and expensive AWES will win by way of sharp awareness of the conditions of parts. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8439 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use

Crosswind AWES is a little like a plane turning left and right without stopping.What are known fretting (wear) for a plane turning all the time (variations of load,centrifugal inertia...)?

 

PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8440 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Re: Lifetime of kites relative to AWES mode use
Pierre,

Its true, when a typical aircraft is subjected to unusually excessive repetitions of a dynamic load-case, reliability suffers. Landings, turbulence, and cabin pressurization cycles are normal max load-cases, and short-haul, aerobatic, a super-duty aircraft do need to be more closely maintained. 

Its predictable that one-way looping symmetric kiteplane like Makani will show asymmetric wear to servos and control linkages, but the solution might be as simple as alternating loop direction periodically (we'll call this. This is all very intuitive, and extended testing and high-hour operations reveal where further design or maintenance attention is required.

Several KiteLab Ilwaco looping foils are optimized to only loop in one direction, with no active control input required. Its not a wing per se that is the endurance worry, but dependence on fancy lightweight actuators rated for flight. These have a typical rating of only a hundred hours between inspections, and a thousand hours between replacement or overhaul, which is too short for cheap AWE. Therefore, massive long-life servos based at the ground are far preferable.

It was Anthony Fokker who taught the aeronautical world to design overly light aerostructures then test away* the weak points, resulting in an arbitrarily reliable airframe far lighter than the overbuilt airframes of his early competitors. We can depend on sufficient testing to result in designs that allow us to sleep at night,

daveS

* "Test-to-Destruction"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8441 From: dave santos Date: 1/15/2013
Subject: Fraunhofer Society & Munich Technical University AWES Studies Underw

Two more Fraunhofer notes-

Fraunhofer Society's Institute for Wind Energy and Energy System Technology (IWES), is (or has been) conducting a study of Kite Energy-

http://www.iwes.fraunhofer.de/en/projects/wind_energy_planttechnology.html

On Kites

Investigation of the potentials of air turbines (FWEA), BMU, 10/2011 - 12/2012

--------------------

From another source, Technical University of Munich (TUM) is "investigating the development status and the competitive environment regarding airborne wind energy systems" in supervised thesis work, in association with Fraunhofer IWES hired work. Many of us are being polled by TUM on complex strategic aspects of the current state-of-the-art.


Its not known if these two efforts are directly connected, but they seem distinct from the known single-venture Fraunhofer collaborations (The Fraunhofer USA front is distinct).

Maybe these analysts will find a Hässliches Entlein (Ugly Duckling) in our mix :)




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8442 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Windswept and Interesting Limited
I incorporated Windswept and Interesting Limited as a means to R&D on Open Source Hardware kite power.
Proposal for Technology Strategy Board funding has been submitted.
The business plan is written and will be spread to interested parties.
The pre-industrial feasibility study proposal had to be aimed toward offshore energy... I proposed tests using a ground anchored belay system to simulate offshore auto weather cocking ring mounted arch kite systems...
Lots of work still to do of course.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8443 From: dave santos Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited
Nice play, Roddy.

WAIL may be the biz juggernaut we have long awaited.

---------------------------------

Not to replace land AWES trials as you propose, but you are ideally placed and well experienced to play the exclusive "offshore" card.

Just find a nice tidal lagoon, so you can work on foot at low tide to set scale rigs to fly. If a wet kite farm works well as a toy, it should work for a living scaled-up...

Take low-angle video and slow the motion for realistic impression of the full scale experience.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8444 From: dave santos Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Airborne Harmonic Nodes
This is ongoing clarification of once-mysterious methods-

 FlipWings (membrane wingmills) are anti-nodes, the moving part of a harmonic AWES system. Because they are less obvious, we have hardly considered the static harmonic nodes as such; like the ground/anchor point, the pilot-lifter kite, and corner-block drogue, as a simple single-unit case.

Ideal AWES harmonic nodes are solid and stiff, so as to dissipate as little harvested and transmitted energy as possible. Therefore, the ground is an ideal AWES node, but kite lift and drogue tension node design needs to be optimized to present as much embodied mass and aero intertia as possible in the direction of motion. Natural kite and wind mass and elasticity are inherent to self-oscillation.

In practical terms, this means that a larger lifter kite and droque is better (up to a point). They should made with low-stretch low-porosity material. Node mass and sail area directly opposed to anti-node motion both count. Pure ballast mass can even be a useful airborne node.

A static nodal wing is tensile balanced at its static CE. An antinodal wing is LE attached, like a flapping-flag. Its CE moves fore-an aft and flips sides with each flap. Mass-spring resonance of both the hardware and flow regulates the action.

As an example of what might be possible, consider a "laddermill" consisting of alternating nodes and anti-nodes in a powerful stable "ladder" oscillation of standing waves tapped at the base. It would not need to rotate weakly in an endless loop; instead the antinode wings would sweep crosswind in well ordered passive harmonic synchrony. A test will be devised to see how well this sort kite train does.

------------------------------

CC BY NC SA

(Legal Note: Open AWE CC sharing and claims rest on "artist's moral rights", under the Berne Convention. Inventing is a true creative Art, by long tradition. The intent in Open AWE is to make the widely emerging new form of CC IP voluntarily accepted and fairly valued, as AWE's professional best-practice standard. Comments invited.)






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8445 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited
Welcome to Windswept and Interesting Limited
 
We have placed you in the AWE Stakeholders
and formed an attentive folder in our 
online growing open-access book on kite energy
and all forms of airborne wind energy systems. 

Wishing you all the best in your new adventure!

~  JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8446 From: Bob Stuart Date: 1/16/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited
I love the name.  Maybe Roddy can pry a few quid out of Billy Connolly, and inspire an infringement joke to introduce the idea as part of his story.

Bob Stuart

On 16-Jan-13, at 5:35 PM, Joe Faust wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8447 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Re: Windswept and Interesting Limited
Thanks Dave S,
I'm going to stay a beached WAIL for a while... simulating an offshore ring by stretching a long splice rope ring to 8 buried sandbags, with webbing sleeves on the rope ring so that rolling carriage feet of the arch can keep driving round ...
If only I'd got an acronym for HOWL... of the wind.
HAIL would be more appropriate we haven't had UV in ages as you forecast.

Thanks JoeF,
Once I get some interesting literature etc, I'll remember to fill the folder.

Thanks Bob
Weirdly there's already a nuts story about the name...
I had been considering a few names... Out of the blue at school out time..a parent at the school said I looked Windswept and Interesting.. And it stuck in my head as a relevant name...I checked it out only 1 couple had used the name once to sell driftwood art... they no longer did anything.. I got stuff ready stuff for incorporation...  The weird bit ... Two days later... I get told my older brother has had to change the name of his new brewery (I know, my brother has a brewery... Excellent) 
West Beach Brewery became Windswept Brewing company
Fair enough being an x pilot he has probably swept more wind than any of us... but the chances? and within such a short time scale neither of us ever having incorporated a company before... weird
The good part is WAIL was incorporated on the last day of the Mayan calendar .. wooooh
It really is the dawning of a new age.
Now anyone for a nice pint?





Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8448 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Re: Airborne Harmonic Nodes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8449 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: encouraging avenues for investment
Did you know that the National Association of Insurance Commissioners has mandatory annually filed reporting of insurance risks from climate change?
Insurers also have to file reports on their strategies to manage those risks.

Heard of the Investor Network on Climate Risk? They have 7T$

a site worth a wee peek at
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8450 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/17/2013
Subject: Airborne Architecture, Kite-based Architecture has cousin
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8451 From: edoishi Date: 1/18/2013
Subject: AWE documentary on kickstarter
Please help support the effort to bring a serious documentary on airborne wind energy to the big screen.  We are raising money to help get more interviews of key players/scientists/companies.  All suggestions are welcome, we are trying to make the best film possible and need all the help we can get... Please donate, blog, tweet, share, email, kick, or pick up the phone to pass the word... thank you.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/757755978/awe-documentary?ref=category

Thanks to all who have participated thus far.  Special thanks to Chase Honaker for continuing to work on this important project

ed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8452 From: dave santos Date: 1/18/2013
Subject: Airborne Architecture Lesson from the Balinese Ram-Air Kite Traditio

 Bali is an epicenter of the great SE Asian kite culture. They make two general classes of kite: Refined formal types and wildly inventive ram-air 3D theme kites. Long before modern ram-air parafoils and soft theme kites emerged from masters like Jalbert and Lynn, the Balinese where creating all sorts of fantasy figures in the sky; animals, superheroes, improbable looking vehicles, and so on. Just-name-it and they can make it fly.

The typical Balinese fantasy kite begins as a thin fairly flexible open armature of lashed split bamboo or wicker. It is then covered with a papier mache well attached to the framework. By long experience, the Balinese learned a key secret, to leave a wind opening at an aerodynamic stagnation point (like a mouth or chest area), so that the whole figure pressurizes.  Overpressure adds stiffness overall, keeping the stabilized paper from promptly fluttering itself to pieces. The internal pressure field even ducts itself into windward inflated detail. Here is the direct technical precedent for modern theme kites. For their part, parafoils began with a fully open stagnation zone, and have evolved toward small valved intakes, Balinese-style.

For our pioneering Airborne Architecture experiments, the Balinese design language is ideal for creating an ultralight crew crew cabin as flying 3D architectural structure with a sense of substance and shelter, without undue flapping. An optimal cabin will have an albacore form with a small wind window in the nose for ram-pressure. This new ram-air hybrid of modern mountain tent and Balinese flying object will have safety netting as its underlaid "foundation", and kite-lift "pavilion" arched overhead, as a big step toward a well-realized airborne architectural format.


CC BY NC SA




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8453 From: dave santos Date: 1/19/2013
Subject: Easy Megascale-Arch Belay-Rotation

Circular Track and Carousel Kite Farm surface concepts are conceptual competitors to KiteLab's Anchor-Circle Belay-Rotation method. Obviously, an anchor-circle is far cheaper and faster to deploy, with far less environmental impact from embodied material and land disturbance. 

Tracks and carousels still promised a narrow operational advantage, the apparent ease of rotation of a kite arch formation. The early circle-belay method was shown to be workable (Mothra1), but even with a depower input, required powerful winching to haul the leading side of the arch to windward. While powerful belay winches were but a fraction of the capital expense of a carousel or track, they would still have been a major capital item. With the new method described here, such winches are not needed.

Lately, Mothra arches have developed a second set of load-paths that converge on the center of the anchor circle. These new loadpaths enable monolithic loads to be lifted with well distributed forces, or the power outputs of many WECS to converge at one center point.

A centerpoint anchor therefore enables an entire arch to rotate semi-passively to match wind direction, much like a single-anchor kite. All that is required is to slack the side-lines so the arch rotates briefly from the center anchor. Once rotation is completed, the side-lines are re-tensioned to once again act as deterministic stabilizers, and wing-area maximizers. 

Brief depower-repower of the arch would be a refinement of the method. No massive belay winches would be needed. The new load paths contribute to the working-load safety-factor (8 to 1) and are fully able to take the full ordinary load of the arch (at a 4 to 1 safety margin, with the slack sidelines as "preventers").

This new Easy-Belay method seems to be the last key solution needed for optimal kite-farms based on megascale kite arches flown from anchor circles (or "anchor-fields"). It will be tested and perfected in upcoming small-scale sessions. The idea is a natural extension of the offshore rotating arch method JoeF recently identified (single-point deep-submerged bridle).

CC BY NC SA




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8454 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions
The first 787 whose Lion batteries failed was reportedly saved by its RAT (a pop-out Ram-Air Turbine). Since this happened over Texas, KiteLab Austin claims some credit. Once again, AWE to the rescue; next we'll save the world  :)


"...Six hours into a test flight in November of 2010, in the skies over Texas just after 2:30 in the afternoon Central Time, the pilot of Boeing 787 Dreamliner Number 2 declared an emergency. There was smoke in the cabin, and the airplane's "glass cockpit"—its computerized displays and controls—had partially failed, its primary flight displays and automatic throttle controls gone...he touched down at Laredo International Airport and brought the plane to a halt, the crew and passengers...evacuated the plane, jumping down the emergency slides. The cause of the emergency was an electrical fire that took out the aircraft's primary and auxiliary power units. The Dreamliner would have become a nightmare without the emergency power source—a Ram Air Turbine, which dropped down from the fuselage to convert airflow past the plane into power for essential controls..."

Sean Gallagher  Ars Technica




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8455 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: kitelabgroup.com lapse?

 Joe,

Noting this site is gone, 

Not sure what the hosting deal was...

dave




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8456 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: Simpler Easy-Belay Rotation of a MegaScale Arch

A push-turn in stunt-kiting is done by releasing tension one line with a push-motion. This takes far less actuation force than the common pull-turn for the same end-state (the extra force makes a sharper quicker turn).

Similarly, a megascale kite arch that needs to rotate by easy-belay can crosslink the windward side to the leeward side so that releasing the windward side powers the hauling to windward of the leeward side. The belay is done with the same anchor circle as before, but a couple of pulleys and some extraline avoid the need for a massive winch. In effect, the belay is self-powered by weathervane-force. This is a "centerless" solution.

As a dopey paradox, it was necessary to design, build, and test a powerful belay winch for Mothra1, in order to then see it as unnecessary.

CC BY NC SA






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8457 From: dave santos Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: Building the Legal Case for AWE CC IP

 
Computer Software is protected by established Copyright Law; therefore we may be able to apply copyright to specific AWES arrangements and operations of string, fabric, and fittings, since this is formally (in Computer Science Theory) the Programming Language work product (Program) of our analog cybernetics. 

Before, we only counted on deep but vague "moral rights", and the hope of "fairness" standards adopted as voluntarily self-binding best practice standards. 

As we work on the case for AWE CC IP, it becomes stronger, so we can better harness CC agility and shared openness advantages over the "unworkable" "broken" Patent Law system, without being the "joke" that some cynical venture players imagined in 2007.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8459 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/20/2013
Subject: KiteLabGroup and KitePilotSchool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8460 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Take 5; give 5; the angels are coming. AWE !
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8461 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Forum Welcome-Wagon (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Director)
Makani's stellar new Board Director, Cathy Zoi, was a key figure in creating the well-known US Govt. Energy-Star appliance standards. She took top appointments in Clinton-Gore energy programs and recently held high positions in the DOE as an Obama appointee, and ongoingly helps Al Gore's climate organizing. Her and her husband's involvement in major greentech investment constituted an appearance of potential conflict-of-interest, but she took the revolving-door to the private sector, which tables that issue for now. 

As a partner in Silver Lake, she is a high net-worth type ( Landis+Gyr stockholder), with a probable equity stake (or option) in Makani. Based on conversation with Corwin in 2011, Makani did not have a lot of corporate flexibility then, and required restructuring for any new set of major equity-growth deals. Apparently these changes have proceeded, and the Zoi announcement is a clear signal (this is still a deeply secretive venture). 

“I am thrilled to join Makani’s board,” said Zoi. “A brilliant technology vision combined with a tremendously 
talented team and genuinely committed financial supporters position Makani perfectly to bring airborne 
wind power to the mainstream marketplace. It will be a privilege to contribute to this important endeavor.”

Lets hope she does not just parrot Makani's notorious hype, but comes to understand its paradigmatic weaknesses and seeks out the many agile-engineering diversification partnerships required to succeed. Her geology and engineering degrees will help.

Director Zoi will surely keep Makani afloat for a while into its daunting scaling-tests phase. The announcement of major new new investment seems to do with Zoi's friends at Soros Fund and Silver Lake. This aerospace Money Pit won't belly-up for lack of cash on her watch. Still, Makani's "high-complexity" AWES architecture remains far (if ever) from utility-scale viability, compared to other "low-complexity" concepts under development. Mega-investors like Soros are warned to take broader plays in AWE, to minimize the risk of a single narrow position. Zoi still has some work to do to to "position (Soros) perfectly" in AWE.

If the new Makani contracts are not restrictive, and she runs with this advice, Zoi may be ideal to lead the entire AWE sector. She must learn our deep technicals fast, and take a broad global view of the R&D. She faces an interesting challenge and opportunity in sorting out AWEC-AWEIA politics, with talk of cooperation, and even a possible merger, now going on. 

Lets all warmly welcome Cathy Zoi to the AWE Community.

http://www.makanipower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/20120107-Makani-Zoi-Press-Release.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Zoi
 
CC: Damon (Please Forward as needed)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8462 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Nylon Blues (hydroscopic behavior)
Nylon has been one of out most important polymers in kites and parachutes. In fair-weather applications, or submerged, nylon has worked well; but for AWES, its tendency to absorb and hold about 10% moisture, by weight, is a severe disadvantage. Like cotton, nylon is stronger wet, and shrinks in drying.

AWES operations in rain are an important wind capacity factor, and any excess weight is toxic to top performance. Water retention also makes nylon a better conductor, worsening lighting risk. Water resistance treatments tend to add cost and require periodic reapplication.

Nylon will retain use as a low-cost shock-absorbing material in specific niche roles (load-limiting snubbers, safety netting, etc.).
 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8463 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di


DaveS,

 

Great new proving US interest for AWE.I would like the same for France but generally France becomes some years after USA or now China.

 

I do not think Makani will test all possible concepts,perhaps (but not probable) FlygenKite,being a soft version.

 

Makani being the most advanced AWES,our forum could bring some solutions regarding the maximization of space.

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8464 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/21/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/JoeFaust/AWE/KiteEnergyPlaneTree.jpg
 Twelve-second seed for tree for Cathy. Welcome, Cathy Zoi.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8465 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di
Pierre,

Lets be very precise- Makani over-complexity is definitely not the "most advanced AWES", just ask any of our senior aerospace pros like DaveL, Fort, or ChrisC. Makani has been a six year high tech dog & pony show of mostly wasted capital for a fizzled platform that has yet to complete an end-to-end all flight-modes session. 

Even your small AWES is "more advanced" in terms of TRL (Technology Readiness Level). For over twenty million dollars, Makani barely ever made the power of a small motorcycle. They may not even rank in the AWE top-ten, if you count practical potential. The Makani Jumbo Autonomous Offshore Carbon Aerobatic E-VTOL Flygen concept is simply quite unworkable for a long time to come.

But thanks to the early Google connection and years of skilled media hype, Makani has "mindshare". Their existing small team must now grow by several hundred real aerospace engineers, with hundreds of millions required, just for starters, if the Soros capital is flowing. Do not presume they will act as stupidly as ever; We may even be capitalized or hired by sharp new analysts ;) The Makani Brand could easily end up printed on Forum-derived open-source low-complexity megascale soft-kite groundgen kite farm concepts.

We created this reality by the excellence and clarity of our work. Forget the fatalism over Bay Area social elitism and prepare for our collective success in eventual third-party due-dilgence testing, such as DaveL and Fraunhofer and many others call for. We will hold Soros to this, or laugh at their dead-end play,

daveS


 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8466 From: christopher carlin Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions
AN even more exciting tale along this line goes back perhaps 20 years ago when  a 767 ran out of fuel over Canada and did a glider landing using the RAT to power essential flight controls.
On Jan 20, 2013, at 7:24 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8467 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Soros Fund Money and Fraunhofer Technical Due Dilgence

The New Year is off to a fast start, with two new game-changing players in AWE.

First we learned that Fraunhofer is eager to preform AWES-tech third-party validation and due diligence in an comparative Analytic Study with Simulations and Fly-Off. Every serious AWES architecture would "get its day in court" as DaveL has put it.

Then we find that Soros has entered AWE R&D, and will be needing to cover the initial play in Makani with a diversified strategy. This will be the Basket approach we have defined, but with a single private Angel with enough capital to complete all our equity-phase milestones.

So let Soros pay for Fraunhofer's services, and for all the world's best AWE teams to complete the engineering due-diligence phase. Then the way will be clear for vast follow-on investment, with handsome profits for smart Soros managers to take credit for.

There is an urgent need to put together all our best ideas (including the social goals) into a plan that we submit to Zoi, ASAP. The risk is to lose an early window of opportunity, and face more years of unfair competition against an artificially revitalized Makani.



Cc: Damon, to copy Makani Board.





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8468 From: Rod Read Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board D

Cathy has an impressive record in green tech. Certainly a mover. She'll have to be quite a shaker to pull off a turn that dramatic.
I will applaud redress toward the more sensible open architecture. Even if it swamps my efforts.... It would be the right thing to do.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8469 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions
Chris,

What do you think of stock RATs as a baseline flygen model? 

We have multiple schemes to whip turbines thru the air at decent speeds (like Joby/Makani), and basing these on COTS RATS might be quite useful leverage. Forget an E-VTOL requirement, there are simpler ways to fly then as gens only,

daveS
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8470 From: dave santos Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board D
Roddy,

The ideal mindset in AWE is to go with whatever wins, rather than insist on any pet idea. This way, one is assured a place in the winner's circle. Lets create a sector where talent recycles easily, rather than one-winner, many-losers.

How sad for those cranky AWE inventors who will insist on sinking with their own fatally flawed dreams. At least we could recognize the high value in soundly eliminating bad ideas, so the good ones are better identified.

Many of your ideas are quite promising, and may soon get a chance to prove themselves, so keep them coming,

DaveS
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8471 From: Bob Stuart Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: RAT Saves Dreamliner from its Lions
That was "The Gimli Glider."  The RAT only powered the instruments and landing gear, failing on the nose gear and flaps.  The flight controls were successfully crossed for a side-slip by muscle power alone.  That got her down soon enough to warn a group of kids having a bicycle rodeo farther along the disused runway.  

Bob Stuart

On 22-Jan-13, at 11:09 AM, christopher carlin wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8472 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon �(Makani names Cathy Zoi as Boar
Understanding the arena for the comment above, 
but holding out for the vitality of a another AWE arena: 

In this other AWE arena in view, there is a sector where good and bad have much less play: 
 A method and construction will be increasing known for itself. And appreciated, hugged, noted, identified, given fuzzy membership in some categories, etc.   Not good or bad; just great for the method/structure/system to be itself in all its glory in the eyes of some beholder.   Any particular system/construction certainly will not fill the bill for untold sets of requirements, but will fill the bill of some requirements, however narrow those requirements might be.   Each and every method/construction has some kind of home where it is welcome.  

Then upon having a particular set of requirements, one might explore the extant well-homed systems/constructions for some AWES that seems to strongly fulfill a chosen set of requirements.    

Sets of requirements will come in a wide variety.   Some sets of requirements will be more popular than others.   The AWES that do not fit a particular set of requirements are still good in some neighborhood. 

Name requirements and construct to fit those requirements and perhaps leave the AWES zoo members still feeling good about themselves, even those many of them are not called to serve for the name requirements of some person's choice.    Degrees of success in fulfilling a particular set of requirements will occur. 

We have hardly exposed all possible AWES.  Far from it--my guess.   Not one exposed yet is bad in the proposed welcoming arena.  And to bring in some of the Selsam-text spirit (miss him ...): "++++++++++++!!!!!"  (I can only try to paraphrase what he might say: no one is selling a watt yet

~JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8473 From: John Adeoye Oyebanji Date: 1/22/2013
Subject: Re: Unified AWE Action Plan. (The Time Is Now!)
Well said , Ed. Many thanks.
I am including PJ and others in this thread. I believe this message deserves the widest possible spread.
Thank you.
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji
CEO, Hardensoft International Limited
FundNopolis Representative -
Nigeria & West-Africa
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

From: edoishi <edoishi@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dave santos<santos137@yahoo.com
Cc: noah<noahsapir@yahoo.com binding covenants. The vast and vital resource must not be privatized or otherwise abused. 

2. We need a unified community, namely an Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association, to serve the primary leadership role. A merger of AWEIA and AWEC will unify us and create fairness for all.

3. Unified, we can better pursue a basket investment fund to draw major capital to the sector. This funding can support AWEC/AWEIA. The Soros Fund* is an urgent early target; others will surely follow.

4. R&D funding must be allocated based on merit determined by vigorous peer review and independent experts like Fraunhofer.**


Thanks to everyone for all the persistent hard work.

Sincerely, 

Ed Sapir
Util LLC
AWEIA treasurer
KiteLab Austin

* The Soros Fund partnered with Silver Lake Partners to form Silver Lake Kraftwerk. Focused on energy and natural resource investments, they are involved in AWE by way of Cathy Zoi, now sitting on Makani Power's Board of Directors. This is good news, but adds urgency to our plan of action.  http://www.makanipower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/20120107-Makani-Zoi-Press-Release.pdf

** Fraunhofer is an applied science research organization. http://www.fraunhofer.de/en.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_Society . 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8474 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di


DaveS,

 

"most advanced AWES" does not mean the most (maybe yes,maybe no) efficient AWES but only the most complete (take-off,automation control) AWES for the moment.

 

PierreB  



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8475 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di
Pierre,

Makani's deceptive claims fooled the world, but not the handful of aerospace pros on this Forum. 

Study the videos- They have NEVER done a complete autonomous flight session; only separate demos of single flight modes, reconfiguring the system each time. Video editing made it look seamless. KiteLab Group forced Corwin to publicly confess this at AWEC2012 (not easy; Thanks PJ).

KiteLab maybe deserves to be seen as the "most complete (take-off,automation control) AWES for the moment", including self-relaunch. To accept this claim, you must understand that passive kite control methods, with inherent stabilities, are true flight automation.  Again, study the videos.

Also keep in mind that a mega-scale kite farm with a human crew (supervised automation) is proposed to be the current "most advanced" concept. Makani cannot scale. Mothra can.

Clever Bay Area marketing of over-dependence on complex digital avionics in AWE plays on folks' naive belief that Big Money is the same thing as brains and experience,

daveS
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8476 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di
DaveS,
 
Conventional wind turbines (CWT),Superturbine (tm) are from what I would call rotor-syntax (rotation,rigidity,continuity,
efficiency).KiteLab's productions and concepts are from kite-syntax (oscillation,lightness,passive control and launching...).
 
What I can wish is such a kite-syntax for AWES works as well as rotor-syntax for CWT.
 
Makani mixes the syntax of both rotor and kite in a way looking obvious.But the resulting common point goes towards a loss of efficiency (conversion = kite + propeller) among other points discuted on the forum.I think Makani is a good AWES for now,but with no possibility to equal CWT.Makani has a configuration allowing it to evolve towards drones.
 
PierreB 
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8477 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di
KiteLab, Ilwaco
KiteLab, Austin
KiteLab, Los Angeles
and among some members of KiteLab Group 
are explorations in both realms of syntax that you describe.   KiteLab, Ilwaco and KiteLab, Austin, and KiteLab, Los Angeles 
keep in the toolbox very many rotary AWES as well as lifters, pullers, oscillators, kite plane flygens, crankers, pumpers, tippers, and more. 
I just post this note for the record, that KiteLab is keeping hands on all systems until winners are proven.   

~JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8478 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Re: [AWES] Forum Welcome-Wagon  (Makani names Cathy Zoi as Board Di
Pierre,

We depend on testing to settle our opinions. At least we know that safety and reliability drive aviation success.

You wave a red-shirt to keep saying things like "Makani is a good AWES for now". There are so many better AWES- Enerkite, TUDelft, and WindLift clearly have superior price-performance. Also count SkySails as an AWES (never mind Mothras).

To admire Makani too much is to fall for the hype. Expect Makani's early all-mode Wing-7 to have an MTBF (critical failure- hull loss) of a few days at best (with 5yr payback). It will not help them that they are driven offshore by FAA FARs. Scaling up to the M5 will be the biggest scariest aviation turkey since the Convair X-6,

daveS




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8479 From: dave santos Date: 1/23/2013
Subject: Breaking the Log-Jam (Fair Warning for Unfair Competitors in AWE)
Since Google first entered AWE six years ago with its Makani buddy-deal "stealth-venture", most of us have faced unfair competitive practices at seeming odds with US Law. AWEC sprang up as the CA non-profit arm of this Google-driven inside group. Millions were raised by relentlessly deceptive unsupported hype, and looted by the insiders, with a predicted string of early failed ventures.

We are mostly engineers, not lawyers, so our legal knowledge is haphazard. Some of us knew under Civil Law that proving direct harm is a basis for bringing suit against a wrongful party, but hard to prove. Many figured US Anti-Trust Law only kicked-in at the level of Microsoft sized enterprises. An FTC ruling against Serious Materials shows us that unfair business practices are acted on at small scales. Upon study, we find that even small town car dealers can be curbed by the FTC.

A frenzy of off-forum emails is going on regarding Cathy Zoi, formerly with DOE, joining Makani, and bringing in Soros investment to the AWE sector. Both Makani and Zoi, via Serious Materials and DOE insider roles, have been dogged by complaints over crony-capitalism, and deceptive unsupported claims (also see False Claims Act). Makani/Joby's lead role in AWEC has been central to the worst problems. Lately, NTS has stepped into the AWEC hot-seat.

What we are now counting on is for Zoi, Makani, and AWEC to together realize a moral obligation (and business opportunity) to redress the long history of Makani-AWEC complaints, or face the long-overdue industry-wide backlash, with responsible authorities like the DE Bundekartellamt, US FTC, US DOE IG and CA AG serving as referees. 

Lets pray Makani-AWEC gladly accept the draft AWEIA plan for a Soros-funded Fraunhofer Society to be our AWE Industry third-party validator of equity-growth merits of all AWE concepts and R&D teams. An AWEC-AWEIA merger is proposed as the urgent ideal reform of AWEC's secretive pay-to-play governance. We will build-in consensus member standards so that anti-trust violations and lack-of-transparency never again becomes issues in AWE. 

========================

From the US FTC website-

"...it’s illegal for 
businesses to act together in 
ways that can limit competition, 
lead to higher prices, or hinder 
other businesses from entering 
the market... 

....a company that 
creates or maintains a monopoly 
by unreasonably excluding other 
companies, or by impairing other 
companies’ ability to compete against 
them, raises antitrust concerns...

...if you suspect 
illegal behavior, please notify federal 
and state antitrust agencies...



Cc: Damon, please Forward as needed.