Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8326to8376 Page 64 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8326 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/2/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8327 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: KitePower's Flying Plaza Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8328 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8329 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8330 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8331 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill and David Hammond Shepard

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8332 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8333 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8334 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind-Dams

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8335 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8336 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8337 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8338 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: IRENA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8339 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: MonoHull with Kite Arch rig and keel //Re: [AWES] Re: Airborne Win

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8340 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8341 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: MonoHull with Kite Arch rig and keel //Re: [AWES] Re: Airborne Win

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8342 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: IRENA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8343 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8344 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8345 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8346 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8347 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: IRENA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8348 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/5/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill and David Hammond Shepard

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8349 From: dave santos Date: 1/5/2013
Subject: Why Springer? (AWE Textbook)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8350 From: stephane rousson Date: 1/6/2013
Subject: Endlessflyers News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8351 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/6/2013
Subject: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8352 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: I look for sponsors for FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8353 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8354 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor [1 Attachmen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8355 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8356 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8357 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8358 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Kite cars

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8359 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8360 From: Db Murray Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8362 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8363 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Preforated Ribbon-Wings flown from Sprockets

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8364 From: brooksdesign Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8365 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Preforated Ribbon-Wings flown from Sprockets

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8366 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: synchronised ribbon arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8367 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8368 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8369 From: edoishi Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8370 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8371 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8372 From: edoishi Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8373 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8374 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8375 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8376 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
Subject: Re: Arch multirotor




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8326 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/2/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?

2KiteSam WITH category-One FlipWing Oscillator on tether 


to get better effect, keep hitting the replay button at the video. 

FlipWings come in two major categories. One type flips less than a circle turn and then returns effort in opposite direction. The other type flips and then keeps going or rotating in the same direction until the trailing edge becomes a new leading edge for further flipping action. Our renowned Mr. 2KiteSam shows a category one flipwing working to drive oscillations in the holding tether; such oscillation may be put to work. See more at http://EnergyKiteSystems.net     In the video, the forward darker wing is the main subject of this video.      Thanks to Dave Santos at KiteLab, Ilwaco, Washington for the video post.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8327 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: KitePower's Flying Plaza Project
http://tinyurl.com/IMAGESreTomasSaraceno 

The set of reached images may give clues to Flying Plaza. 
And the images may give one ideas about kite energy systems.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8328 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
The application was approved.
Patent number: 8066225 
Filing date: Jan 19, 2009
Issue date: Nov 29, 2011
Application number: 12/355,963

A priority date is mentioned in parent patent application text: 
This application claims priority to U.S. provisional application Ser. No. 61/024,969 filed Jan. 31, 2008.

His website seems down.   WayBackMachine has a Feb. 11, 2010 capture of one page.  

Connect this topic also with
where another application for patent was introduced: 

Power Generation using High Altitude Traction Rotors

 Benjamin Tigner
Abstract
Application number: 12/711,847

Publication number: US 2010/0219644 A1
Filing date: Feb 24, 2010


=============== News on Benjamin would be welcome. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8329 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
A seeming blanking-out of some files on the Internet 
leaves one with a LinkedIn connection to 
where with an AWES eye, one might dream
of advanced rotor AWES in back files. 
This is a speculative note in hunt for the AWES mind of Tigner. 
Work on drones may simply be much hotter than AWES
for fluid funds.    However, the tech within Karem Aircraft
would be cousin to some AWES explorations. 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8330 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
A flygen AWES might be buried within the AeroTrain

Speculative note by JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8331 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill and David Hammond Shepard
It was unintentional ... the miss of including mention of the recent interest in various laddermill concepts by Bolonkin: 

Alexander Bolonkin  
[Contact by AWES community in 2012 by the coordinated efforts of Dave Santos and Shawn Thomas! Great!]

His home site: http://bolonkin.narod.ru/


Alexander Alexandrovich Bolonkin                  
Bolonkin, Alexander     |    AWES5674  | AWES6624

The lifted ladder means:

The two-loop lifted loop of drag wings

Fan-belt driven by laddermill which is starkly lifted with pilot-lifter kite system.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8332 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?
A special AWES sector of flipwings used as a subpart of the kiting system is the musical-kite sector. 
The flipwing is sized and set taut to give flutter enough to make pleasant sounds. 
One example: 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8333 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin
For convenience of images: 
Click image for full patent.      Discuss claims, etc. 
Comments:   ... very groundgen, very high use of stark lifters, strong use of fan-belt transferring of energy.  ~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8334 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/3/2013
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind-Dams
This could be considered obvious

http://youtu.be/4Qk02lcwzX8

I don't ever remember seeing one... but the generalised form would seem to make sense.
An arch kite top balancing / being set against a set or active arch keel



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8335 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?
Joe,

There are three main types of "flipwing" to my mind- tacking, shunting, and somersaulting. Shunting wings do not flip, but are so closely related in design and operation to the others, that they form a natural set. Note that FlipWing (TM) was released for generic "flipwing" usage. Joe is welcome to formally classify these types, with perhaps some new parent term to reflect that not all "flip", and the stable ribbon arch is a key static case. The "types" may turn out to be "modes", since a single wing could perform several modes.

Saunders' 1902 kite is revealed to be the direct ancestor of the amazing Caribbean three-stick kites made today. In our circle, Shawn Thomas is a Master of this type. Besides the optimized hummer, its a high-wind specialist, especially by the Y-bridled tails and elongated planform not seen in the patent.

Following the patent time-machine yet farther back brings us to Maddeus's 1871 original hummer kite (patent 121056). Hummers are quite ancient in SE Asia, with many secrets to discover, but here is the modern historical lineage to our new flipwings. Despite the weird fact that modern NYC can hardly support a single kite shop, it has a formidable tradition going in these three-stick kites (all three references above).

For a time, we feared Frayne claimed his WindBelt (TM) patent to be blocking on all forms of "hummer" energy extraction, until we noted Payne claimed the idea for large scale energy far earlier (no one developed it). The Frayne patent only covers use of a linear electrical generator on a ribbon-wing. Its obvious now that large scale versions will not be economic, by not directly supporting fast "generator speed".

An urgent mystery about AWES flipwings has been solved- Would these wings still self-oscillate at the .1-1 km megascale? The answer is Yes, since we see the increasing suspended wing mass progressively acting as a quality spring-mass harmonic resonator (by outscaling windfield noise). The spring-mass determines itself as the primary Lyapunov orbit at larger scales. 

By contrast, the small flipwings lacked enough mass to steady out, often sticking and "backfiring", such that limber tails served as regulators. The vertical tails proved a dead end at larger scales, defeated by increased mass causing two chaotic attractor modes- stability and "flop-over", as KiteLab Ilwaco eventually worked out. 

Flip wings underwater may retain the flapping tail into larger scales, since the water is the massive actor. It remains a question how much von Karman wave formation helps to regulate flip-wings at higher Re, avoiding the use of added dynamic ballast mass.

Its "official", the latest flipwings are TRL-9; ready for performance testing alongside all other AWES WECS. They seem to offer tremendous scalability and unbeatable power-to-weight. Expect many new demos of the latest wings driving all sorts of work cells,

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8336 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?
Dave,

How about a ram air kite with two intakes? Intake A gives the kite a profile with a positive angle of attack and exposes intake B. Intake B "flips" the profile to a negative angle and exposes intake A.

Flipping between two aerodynamic profiles/angles of attack should vastly increase the efficiency of the wing.

What do you think?

/cb

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8337 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: FlipWing types?
cb,

Current flipwings already closely maintain proper AoA, as cheaper simpler single-skin wings. The LE turbulators, TE eddy flaps, and tuned loadpaths all help. One sees wing camber reversing with each tack into the intended curve.

Your idea is still a very good one, to have an aerostructure adapt by ram-air from various angles, but its a matter of finding the best places to use it (like isodirectional arrays). We have discussed this general sort of method before, but never developed it, its a wide-open area. Valved (flap-seals) ram-air cells are of particular interest to resist collapses when ram-air is interrupted. There is a whole world of "fluidic logic" to explore with large soft-kites.

Our rule is "test, test, test...." so a simple working version made from scraps is better than any prediction. If you make even the crudest oscillator along the lines you envision, that's a cool experiment,

daveS



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8338 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: IRENA
Here is the link to put some questions for the debate on 01/13/2013 to International Renewable Energy Agency www.ft-live.com/irena .
 
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8339 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: MonoHull with Kite Arch rig and keel //Re: [AWES] Re: Airborne Win
Rod,

This is a valid sailing idea, nicely rendered and proportioned, but the practical problem is how to twist and bend the arches into the complex shapes to perform all points of sail. Monohulls (Multis too) might as well make do with "mono" kite rigs, at best using deck or spar to create "control-bar stability".

Its easier to set kite arches to work with the flexible placement and headings of two boats ("buddy-boat" arch) to work with, and then you get the vast arch-scaling-potential a single hull cannot offer,

daveS

Cc: AYRS, as yacht-related.

PS Such concepts are only "obvious" on the weird AWES Forum.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8340 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power

Tigner's vast turbine array works in principle (another wall or dam of HAWTs), but is only doable at present if stretched out under a Mothra wing. This combination is a key experiment to perform soon. 2009 was rather late for Tigner to claim inventive priority, since we know many similar earlier schemes. This is a good example of an uncertain patent, worth little by itself, that gains tangible value pooled with many other patents. Tigner himself seems talented enough to make a real contribution to AWE, if he sticks at it.

In my opinion, Karem Aircraft's Osprey look-alike VTOL and unquestioned military-industrialism hardly suggest a contributing role in AWE. (They would need to see the civil energy market as the better biz play.). There is a wide gap between a low-complexity version of Tigner, and the inherent high-complexity of Karem's copycatted ideas.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8341 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: MonoHull with Kite Arch rig and keel //Re: [AWES] Re: Airborne Win
I was hoping you'd ask that Dave S
Wait till you see the funky arch control s**t you can render with
grasshopper... the parametric design environment I was on about...
more to follow of course...
I reckon I can fit you an arch to pretty much any scenario ...
If only I will get the time at my PC.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8342 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: IRENA
Well spotted Pierre,
is anyone volunteering to "lobby" / proffer any questions?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8343 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
The Mothra stability principle is fantastic,
But I wouldn't say it's the only method doable...
I and certainly you Dave S, could set up two (even single line) kites so as one pulls a catenary left one pulls right.
It would stretch the line out at altitude, and could use less material even than a Mothra... wouldn't be as neat or stable.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8344 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
Rod, 
       A substantial left-veering train skyhook working opposite of a right-veering train skyhook brings aggregate stability to tensed connector. 

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8345 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
I think it's more about how far apart you spread the tethers...
the two trains system with wide anchors ...
starts to look like an arch that's naked on top, and down it's legs (oooh err)
but has big massive ears
(ohhh)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8346 From: dave santos Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: Tigner's Multi-tether cross-wind kite power
Rod,

To assert that raising this sort of array is "only doable at present if stretched out under a Mothra wing" means that Mothra1 is ready-to-go right now. Tigner would just need to attach taglines from his turbines to Mothra's kixel junctions; et viola, its done.

Any other scheme that only exists abstractly will take more time to design and prepare. The double-train would work, but not optimally (too much altitude encroachment, and a separate turbine attachment lattice required). The wait for a solution is especially long for the complex close formation drone flying that Tigner presumes, but never addresses,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8347 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/4/2013
Subject: Re: IRENA


I put some questions,and think other players in the list could put questions,for example JoeF,DaveS,JohnO or yourself.AWE is not yet a well known field,so many questions can arise some interest from IRENA which is the main organization about renewable energy in the world,working with governments.

 

PierreB


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8348 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/5/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill and David Hammond Shepard
My incomplete study of documents begs to define who expressed or failed to express a ladder loop AWES that has driving crosswind (though path is in the vertical direction) airfoil rungs during the down-going part of the loop.   Each author did or did not have text that described that the down-going rung airfoils could be driving strongly with the lift characteristics of the airfoils and not just set to low-reaction angle of attack?

[ ] Did Selsam?      
[ ] Did Shepard?
[ ] Did Ockels?
[ ] Did Bolonkin?

I invite living authors to speak first with reference.   And I invite analysts to argue on the yes or no side of the question per ladder author-explorer. In group we have glanced at a full-on-all-parts-of-loop-ladder in strong lift-driving-crosswind mode (except at upper and lower transition zones); but is there supporting text about each of the four listed authors on the matter.   Or did they neglect to look at the opportunity of lifting airfoils on the down-going part of the ladder's loop?     Especially when a stark strong lifter kite subassembly (perhaps kytoon LTA or not) aids in holding the working ladder loop, the down-going set of rung airfoils may be strongly lifting with the lift vector pointing down to help the loop keep rotating. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8349 From: dave santos Date: 1/5/2013
Subject: Why Springer? (AWE Textbook)
Its widely presumed that publishing with Springer-Verlag represents definite prestige for an AWE academic textbook. A background check uncovers a mixed picture. In summary-

======================

Why Springer? (AWE Textbook)

Its 2013; self-publishing on the Internet is the most powerful force for knowledge since Gutenburg. The printed page is now seen as a secondary technology, rather like travel by horse. Nevertheless, there is still a biggest academic book publisher in the world: Springer-Verlag. But this is not the same hallowed company founded in 1842, that a century later resisted the Nazis. Its now owned by the Government of Singapore (133rd place in world human rights) and an elite Swedish investment fund (EQT Partners).

These days, for a book-based venture to succeed against Everyman's Internet, its needs gimmicks. Springer, as a resold brand name, foremost depends on the sustained illusion of its old prestige, which motivates endless authors and readers to play along without asking questions. There is a tightly maintained facade of publishing expertise, with concocted style rules enforced on hapless contributors (like no color images in AWE's case). Staff hacks at Springer then take over to further format your book to suit themselves. Needless to say, the resulting book and web designs are as a rule quite banal.

Even worse, Springer print books and journals are generally overpriced compared to most printed works, often costing hundreds of dollars for pretentiously arcane books no one loves or needs. While books can now be published at low cost one-at-a-time, these special books are particularly intended to enrich those Nordic investor elites and authoritarian Singapore. The saddest outcome is the thousands of Springer papers and hundreds of journals that can only be read by paying high subscription fees, so many scholars are excluded. Let us insist; "knowledge wants to be free".

A new Springer "option" is to make Authors pay, vanity-publishing style, under a desperate (for a book company) "Open Access" program. For a few thousand dollars out of the author's pocket, Springer hosts the work like an overpriced ISP, perhaps even controlling the content in perpetuity, as an advertising portal. 

So why can't we demand the Government of Singapore subsidize an AWE Textook outright, rather than pick our pockets? Helping AWE, as a gift to the world, would be a redemptive signal that the notorious regime really is reforming. Just kidding; our friends, the domain Editors of record, would have to radicalize beyond recognition to make such a demand. They are not even culturally ready for open peer-review, but they did grudgingly opt for "Springer Open Access" (we are passing the hat, since NTS is strangely short on cash). Lets hope the book manages to cover AWE productively, despite grave doubts, including fears of technical bias and unfair commercial advantage.

Fortunately, Joe's open-AWE living-textbook project exists as a heroic counterbalance, but he needs all our help. His massive project is already a triumph of knowledge-sharing (if not "foolish consistency"), or the Springer academic publishing shortcomings would be a far more serious matter.


NOTES

Springer's Government of Singapore co-owner is a curious bed-fellow for enlightened scientists seeking to publish-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore

-----------

The main argument for Springer style-enforcement is "consistency". Why? Perhaps its a classic authoritarian loyalty test, not even a conscious choice. From Wikipedia-

    * A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
    * Ralph Waldo Emerson
    * Self Reliance (1841).
    * Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead.
    * Aldous Huxley, "Wordsworth in the Tropics" in Do What You Will (1929).
    * Consistency is a virtue for trains: what we want from a philosopher is insights, whether he comes by them consistently or not.
    * Stephen Vizinczey, "Good Faith and Bad" in London Sunday Telegraph (4/21/1974); reprinted in Truth and Lies in Literature (1986).
    * Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
    * Oscar Wilde, "The Relation of Dress to Art" in Pall Mall Gazette (2/28/1885); reprinted in Aristotle at Afternoon Tea:The Rare Oscar Wilde (1991).
    * Consistency is the enemy of enterprise, just as symmetry is the enemy of art.
    * George Bernard Shaw, quoted by Michael Holroyd in Bernard Shaw: The Lure of Fantasy (1991).
    * The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.
    * F. Scott Fitzgerald, "The Crack-Up" in Esquire (2/36).
    * If a person never contradicts himself, it must be that he says nothing.
    * Miguel de Unamuno, quoted by Douglas R. Hofstadter in Godel, Escher, Bach (1979).
    * Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago.
    * Bernard Berenson, Notebook (1892).
    * Of course I'm inconsistent! Only logicians and cretins are consistent!
    * Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get The Blues (1976); spoken by the character "The Chink".
    * A silly ass ... wrote a paper to prove me inconsistent. ... Inconsistency is the bugbear of fools! I wouldn't give a damn for a fellow who couldn't change his mind with a change of conditions.
    * John Arbuthnot "Jacky" Fisher, British Admiral and First Sea Lord, in a letter to former Prime Minister Arthur Balfour (ndg); reported in Arthur J. Marder, From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow: The Royal Navy in the Fisher Era, 1904-1919. (1961-1965); quoted by Robert K. Massie in Deadnought: Britain, Germany and the Comiing of the Great War (1991).
    * I have forced myself to contradict myself in order to avoid conforming to my own tastes.
    * Marchel Duchamp, quoted by Harriet & Sidney Janis in "Marchel Duchamp: Anti-Artist" in View magazine (3/21/45); reprinted in Robert Motherwell, Dada Painters and Poets (1951).
    * The problem with being consistent is that there are lots of ways to be consistent, and they're all inconsistent with each other.
    * Larry Wall, message-ID <20050516005559.GC26184@wall.org mailing-list.
    * Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    * Larry Wall, Usenet article <199809041918.MAA06850@wall.org
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8350 From: stephane rousson Date: 1/6/2013
Subject: Endlessflyers News
Bonjour à tous, Hello All, 

voici les news ( Pdf en Français ) , Here is the news (PDF in English )

Meilleurs voeux

--
Stephane Rousson
0033(0)603838276
 



  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8351 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/6/2013
Subject: Arch multirotor
Attachments :

    Here is a huge arch with a farm of Superturbines (tm) side by side.Superturbines (2,3,4) are held by the arch (1).Both the basis of arch and Superturbines are held by the floating spar (5).Cables (6) from the ends of the spar join the anchor (8).So all the system can turn according to winds directions,the spar pivoting.Note:this description prevent to fill a French application (but I have a registred copyright) for a patent due to present disclosure,but not for US patent in the year.Observations,improvments?It looks like a good wedding between Arch and Superturbine,if no divorce later.

     

    PierreB

     

    http://flygenkite.com

     

      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8352 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: I look for sponsors for FlygenKite

    It is probably the time to experiment complete obvious AWES in main configurations.

    Actually some complete (mechanics,electricity,automation) AWES are:rigid flygen (Makani);perhaps rigid stationary flygen (Sky Windpower);rigid reel-in/out (Ampyx);soft reel-in/out (Stem from KiteGen).

    Not quite complete AWES as soft flygen is FlygenKite.

    So sponsoring (as money but also and above all as technical assistance) can help to complete it. 

    I plan to make two different prototypes one after the other.

    The first small prototype will be made with my existing materials:ram wing area 1.5 m² with two lines 20 m,small motor-generator DC (generally used as motors for hairdryer,and special support realized on 3D drawing).

    Goal:automated flight,launching,recovering control.Need technical help for mechanics and electricity:
    -two small winches with actuator (perhaps in model making or fishing or boat industries).When the kite makes figure-eight,one winch rolls up (some cm of one line) while the other unwinds.
    -the two winches are on a swivel tray allowing different wind directions.
    -Mechanical system of take-off.

    -The far more expensive being the software itself piloting the kite carrying
    sensors (wind speed,kite speed,GPS?).However such an automated control is far easier for flygen than for groundgen reel-out/in which contains a
    difficult and powerless cyclic phase of recovering in more.The better for it is making software by some firm in the concerned field.

    When the first small prototype is validated,a second 10kW (area of wing
    20-25 m²) prototype will be studied.

    PierreB,

    http://flygenkite.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8353 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur
    Joachim Montnacher of Fraunhofer Institute for Manufacturing Engineering and Automation IPA

    has forwarded some interesting photos and an informative article  for study.
    A polished English translation is invited from a volunteer in our group (if you tackle such, then announce in order to spare duplicate community effort on this; thank you). 

    For detail study:

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8354 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor [1 Attachmen
    Pierre,

    Interesting configuration.

    Your hybrid concept matches what Doug (USWindLabs) and i recently discussed by phone, to take a stack of 2x4 lumber and carve a a bunch of SuperTurbine blades to lift under Mothra1 in rows, as part of ongoing NOKE/Util/KiteLab/UTexas/Skymill partnered work. We did not cover many details, but an obvious open question to test is whether its better to torque or tug the drive-rope (USWindLabs v. SkyMill Multi-Rotor Methods). FlipWings, flygens, captive kiteplanes, and all sorts of groundgens would also be tested.

    As you know, a circle of Forum Members are planning an intensive group flying encampment, but its unclear where, except that it has to be a good kite wind and work location. At the moment it could be Italy, Scotland, Texas, California, (France?), etc.. If anyone else wants to host this AWE "Technical Woodstock" Spring/Summer, they need to meet most criteria in the recent AWES R&D ideal location check-list. The location decision is due soon, so momentum is not lost.

    There are project funds to cover spartan direct expenses for the intensive kite work, but it helps if more angel funding is brought to the table and shared. Everyone with a willingness to learn or possessing key skills is invited to come help direct-test leading methods side-by-side, if not to decide winners, then at least to gain ever more experience. No doubt an intense "encampment event" will greatly advance us all.

    So how would you like to see your concept sketch come alive so soon?

    daveS

     


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8355 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor


    DaveS,

     

    Can you put some Superturbines (tm) under the smaller Mothra,and fix the set on a rotating spar?

     

    PierreB



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8356 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur
    I made a copy of the PDF article using OCR (optical character recognition), so that one may copy/paste text into machine translators.  The OCR process is not perfect; and then machine translations to other languages will not be perfect; the two levels of error may produce some odd results. Such is not the path to the desired polished translation to English or other languages. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8357 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor
    Yes, Pierre, we can easily host a row of small SuperTurbines under Mothra2
     
    The beauty of abundant cheap lift is that we can support the high tension needed by SuperTurbines using rope as the torsion drive material. 

    We can even lift ordinary HAWTs as flygens, and set AWE records. These may not be ultimate solutions, but we can make them work anyway.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8358 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Kite cars
    Extending and refining are welcome actions on this, sooner or later:

    kite car  (various types)

    • Type 1: The kite system's resistive set is a car or chariot or cart. E.g., kitebuggying, kite yachting, kite shipping, etc. where the buggy or the yacht, or boat, or ship, or railed vehicle, etc. are the cars in the kite systems.
    • Type 2:  The kite system may have a car that travels up and/or down one of the kite system's tethers. Such car might be release for free-fall or free-flight or subsequent powered flight.
    • Type 3: A car or truck or automobile that is dedicated to kites, kite activity, or services to kite systems. One embodiment of this type is a personal automobile dedicated to carrying kite gear to sites for performance, research, or testing.
    • Type 4:  An aerial cableway that is kite supported may have cars on aerial lines that travel short or long distances.
    • Type 5: Within a kite's wing, there may be tiny or larger cars on line or guide rails that move under passive or active controls to fulfill various functions within the kite's wing.
    • Type 6:  Within kite airborne architecture, there may be pathways whereupon a car may be driven by people or robots.
    • Type 7:  ?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8359 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment  //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor


    So please do it DaveS,even though it is not the ultimate solution.

    By putting some schemes in flight,things can become clearer.

     

    PierreB




     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8360 From: Db Murray Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor
    Dave & Pierre,

    The French location, that I asked your & Rod's advice on, could be workable depending on scale of testing, & required approvals. I will work more on this.

    Today's modified sketch, http://flyinground.com/post/39942555287, shows a site specific, semi-permanent tension net solution for the energy capture & measurement of various types of tethered apparatus. This one shows Pierre's most recent proposal. I imagine that the tether to tension net connection points could "travel" to allow for directional control of the array. 

    I've also made some other posts recently that may be of interest at
    http://flyinground.com/archive
    http://agronautics.com/archive
    DaveB




    From: dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
     
    Pierre,

    Interesting configuration.

    Your hybrid concept matches what Doug (USWindLabs) and i recently discussed by phone, to take a stack of 2x4 lumber and carve a a bunch of SuperTurbine blades to lift under Mothra1 in rows, as part of ongoing NOKE/Util/KiteLab/UTexas/Skymill partnered work. We did not cover many details, but an obvious open question to test is whether its better to torque or tug the drive-rope (USWindLabs v. SkyMill Multi-Rotor Methods). FlipWings, flygens, captive kiteplanes, and all sorts of groundgens would also be tested.

    As you know, a circle of Forum Members are planning an intensive group flying encampment, but its unclear where, except that it has to be a good kite wind and work location. At the moment it could be Italy, Scotland, Texas, California, (France?), etc.. If anyone else wants to host this AWE "Technical Woodstock" Spring/Summer, they need to meet most criteria in the recent AWES R&D ideal location check-list. The location decision is due soon, so momentum is not lost.

    There are project funds to cover spartan direct expenses for the intensive kite work, but it helps if more angel funding is brought to the table and shared. Everyone with a willingness to learn or possessing key skills is invited to come help direct-test leading methods side-by-side, if not to decide winners, then at least to gain ever more experience. No doubt an intense "encampment event" will greatly advance us all.

    So how would you like to see your concept sketch come alive so soon?

    daveS

     




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8362 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8363 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Preforated Ribbon-Wings flown from Sprockets
    Ribbon wings are cheap and simple, with many known instances in AWES design. A basic improvement in handling ribbon wings is to perforate the leading and trailing edges with sprocket holes, so as to better handle them mechanically, just as perforated motion-picture film is processed by sprocketed rollers in cameras or projectors. We have long considered rollers to handle ribbon wings, and adding sprockets is just a next natural step.

    Recall that Ron Welty around 2009 envisioned a ribbon-like fabric ladder-mill made of collapsible wind pockets on looped belt. Since then, the idea of a "sideways" (crosswind arched) laddermill has caught on. Sprocketed versions of Welty Mills could be a real AWES contender.

    Notes-

    -Endless ribbon wings would be "roll-stock" fabric, a most potent COTS.

    -The holes would act as turbulators, enhancing the single-skin wing's flying properties.

    -Holes meshed on sprocket teeth keep roll-stock from slipping or folding at rollers.

    -Well tuned ribbon arches can be set from roller sprockets specially angled. Roller geometry can be conical to allow for proper wing tuning.

    -Each "frame" on the roll could be a crosswind kixel, so the "film" is driven crosswind, as the AWES working principle.

    --------------------------------

    Expect a dinky proof-of-concept demo soon, with an aim to show continuous toothed circulation as a crosswind Welty mill.


    CC BY NC SA
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8364 From: brooksdesign Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor
    Although my day job has taken all of my available time for the last couple of years but I've been trying to keep an eye out for properties to do this on. My goal is to set up a property with good access to electric lines and large open areas with the purpose of setting up such an encampment. The deal would be, I would provide the land and smart meter box on a pole. "Tenants" would park an RV or pitch a tent and be required to generate a certain amount of metered power for rent and any power over that amount is profit for the AWES operators. Also each operator would be required to keep a log of hours spent maintaining their systems and create a blog explaining the problems and solutions found. This would be open to ALL types of alt energy production. An ongoing experimental village that produces more than it uses. That's my goal. Maybe I'll even get around to building the "DEVICE" I designed years ago. If only the certified quality sensors I need didn't cost more than I make in a year....DaveS offered to fund before he realized I don't use plastic cups and soda straws to make my demos.
    -brooks
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8365 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Preforated Ribbon-Wings flown from Sprockets
    Also useful would be individually controllable front and back sprockets.. e.g.
    where sprocket holes help a ribbon(hold to, align to or run along) load paths (front and back or (up and downwind))
    and where the loadpaths have variable geometry, (the back can shrink compared to the front for overall L/D changes)
    The ribbon becomes the arch.
    and if it has driving pockets on it for a top arch and a lower arch say... you can build variable geometry continuous driving arch sets with a band driving around them.

    smart


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8366 From: roderickjosephread Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: synchronised ribbon arches
    Having a ribbon arch with controllable "pinch" (shortening of the rear catenary/loadpath/bridling/tether)

    Pinching the rear of the ribbon allows it to pull up and back (L and D).
    Release recovers to neutral lift.

    Align say 4 or more of these ribbons in a line downwind.

    Each side could pull a crank on a downwind axis.

    Single sided control could make it sway or wind side to side.

    nah it's probably still better to host chaotic flipwings under an arch but it may be worth considering...
    certainly the arch dynamic control components.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8367 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor
    Pierre,

    Yes, this Arch-SuperTurbine idea will be tested at the Encampment, along with as many other concepts as possible. This will give participants direct experience of the diversity of solutions, and maybe clear indications of what works best.

    Brooks,

    No need for you to buy property for your energy village, when you can use our San Marcos Hay Farm. We already have an anchor-field in place, and the grid connection runs to the center of the giant hay field. The owners are totally cool, with many skills (from aviation to manufacturing on site). Ed is pushing for the encampment there, but Italy is also waycool. Gaetano is pushing Italy hard, where we have two small airports eager to host experiments. You would have to eat gourmet Italian somehow.

    You are still offered to share our current funding, but the one requirement is to meet a specific milestone with a clear deliverable. This can be your proposal, or some aspect of the larger projects. Zap Power is also presumed willing to participate in a major way via the Basket Fund. Your talent finally applied to AWE in a focused effort is very desirable. 

    We also count on you to keep Joel Sholtz in the loop. The hit TV comedy, "Big Bang Theory", recently mentioned a Sholtz "Delta Raptor" (the "Alpha Geek" characters are variously masters of theoretical quantum physics, work for NASA JPL on planetary robotics, and fly kites as a hobby. The insufferable Texan polymath character even beat the Indian chap at patang fighting. Once again, Hollywood rips off our personal bios, sigh, :) 

    You may also want to carpool with Ed to Lufkin to pow-wow with the WhataKite giant kite master, Barry Ogletree,

    daveS
     


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8368 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Welcome to Fraunhofer (plus questions about NTS AWES architectur
    Joe,

    The forwarded promotional material was already mostly known, but its a good sign that Fraunhofer seems responsive to public interest in its AWES work. Did Joachim understand the specific engineering questions regarding AWES Standards development, land and airspace minimization, and so on? 

    We count on Fraunhofer to welcome all serious engineering input, and develop its AWES systems accordingly. Open circles have a lot of specific helpful suggestions to offer in this concept space (from standard COTS roller fairleads, to higher density kite architectures for loop tracks.). Fraunhofer might be an ideal player in a wider R&D circle, if it has not bound itself contractually too narrowly to any one player or concept.

    Lets ask Martin for help (native-German fluent-English) if lack of exact translation is a barrier. We are grateful to Joachim for continued information sharing,

    daveS
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8369 From: edoishi Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor
    Pierre et al,

    I am happy to see this proposal. M2 was built to test as many ideas as possible. Lifting superTurbines is certainly a key early test.

    One aspect of your design, however, has me puzzled: The use of a floating spar. It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration; namely, using the EARTH itself to spread the kite cross wind. Keep in mind that even the 300 sq ft (~30 m^2) miniMothra has a minimum of 100 ft (~30m) between anchor points. When we had it flying with 100 ft of rope on each wingtip, it was necessary to spread the anchor points further - closer to 150 ft (~45m).

    So, how can we build this giant floating spar? And does it scale well?

    This debate does beg the question, though, of how a series of ground based generators relates to a rotating arch. Do we need a series of concentric tracks? The outer track handles the anchor points. The inner tracks handle the generators. ???

    Another option is to have a single ground-gen in the center, itself able to rotate, or spin.

    If we are able to find a location where rotation is not necessary, then it would be easy to fill the volume with superturbines, flip-wings, super flip-wings, etc...

    THEN AGAIN, maybe the giant floating spar is the answer.
    Floating on water . . . ?

    -Ed Sapir
    Util/KiteLab





    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8370 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor


    Ed Sapir and all,

     

    The floating spar (inflatable spar or beam)allows rotation of the system by a small swivelling tray close to the anchor,that according to wind direction (Usually Arch allow only one wind direction due to 2 anchors).On the ground the floating spar is the same but on a solid swivelling tray.Of course for this use arch and Superturbines are in stationary mode (not really crosswind) like for Superturbine alone.Spar carries arch and its 2 anchors at to ends and Superturbines.

    which are held by the spar,and by the arch for their respective ends.

     

    PierreB

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8371 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor

    " It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction.

     

    PierreB




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8372 From: edoishi Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor
    Anchor points on a track configured in a circle also allows for rotation of the arch as wind shifts.

    With miniMothra we physically moved one anchor point repeatedly - even digging new sand anchors - eventually my super-strong 2 meter tall friend muscled one anchor point around to find the best wind as can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-cC7qSpnbg
    (towards the end)

    Another question - must the kite arch lift the beam as well as the turbines ?
    And - does the beam have to be rigid enough to counter the force of an arch pulling like mad?
    Which brings me back to: how do you make such an impressive +/- 40 meter beam?



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8373 From: dave santos Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor
    Quote- "It seems (a rotating control bar) negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction,"

    Pierre, 

    What Ed means is that we cannot easily or cheaply scale up a "control bar" as an arch wind direction compliance mechanism. Instead, for early megascale (2012: font-style:normal;">
    We are confident that the belay method megascales, based on industrial rigging and winching models with comparable loads and speeds. Since we hope to power even cities with weak economies with GigaWatt AWES units, we avoid dependence on expensive giant ground structures. Design-for-automation is not urgent at the megascale, since labor is a manageable expense with the economy-of-scale.

    To rotate arches, we have explored carousels, circle-tracks, and circle-cableways, including many small tests.  Ed even has a circular model train track still to test, and i am doing circular cableway experiments. A giant control bar seems better than a full carousel at least, in terms of capital cost and embodied material. We can adopt it if we need to...

    daveS


     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8374 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor
    edoishi, 
                 In Pierre's " floating spar"     ... I was reading the matter as a spar floating on the sea to keep the arch anchor point spread; then I was seeing weathercocking with the floating-on-water spreader spar.       Pierre?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8375 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor
    For sea arch-kite spreading of anchors, consider not a spar but a tension line at sea surface with the tension provided by lateral veering kite trains, but with a water-ballast container to stop lifting; the water-ballast could be sea-floor anchored.  Hence no "spar" for spreader, but still the whole matter floating and weathercocking.    The spread cold be adjustable.
    ~JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8376 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Arch multirotor