Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES6261to6311 Page 23 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6261 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6262 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6263 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6264 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6265 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Power Curve //Re: Google Alert - makani power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6267 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6268 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6269 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6270 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: //Re: Google Alert - makani power / Moller's Flying Car?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6271 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6272 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6273 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6274 From: blturner3 Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Dynamic Plummet Mode? (Inverted Wind Gradients)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6275 From: blturner3 Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6276 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6277 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6278 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6279 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6280 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6281 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6282 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6283 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6284 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6285 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Mitigating a sudden Ice Age with Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6286 From: Doug Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6287 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6288 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: SteamPunk AWES 101- Hit-and-Miss Engines and Watt Governors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6289 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: SteamPunk AWES 101- Hit-and-Miss Engines and Watt Governors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6290 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6291 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: The Future of Wind Power by Archer on April 16, 2008

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6292 From: Doug Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6293 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6294 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Public access to DOE funded research papers.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6295 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6296 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmiss

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6297 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6298 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6299 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Back to Kites, Please //Re: [AWES] Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6300 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6301 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6302 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6303 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6304 From: Doug Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6305 From: Doug Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmiss

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6306 From: blturner3 Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6307 From: dave santos Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Trans

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6308 From: dave santos Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6309 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6310 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Fwd: OPTEC to come: WG1 / HIGHWIND SAB / Stevin lecture on weather f

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6311 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Fwd: OPTEC to come: WG1 / HIGHWIND SAB / Stevin lecture on weath




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6261 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...
Yeah the real "avian issues" with wind energy are all about poop, and birds damaging turbines, not vice-versa. Anything politically-correct tends to stand reality on its head. Birds hurt turbines. Every servicing operation starts with cleaning bird poop, (wash your hands before licking your fingers!) Turbines help birds by preserving habitat. We've had bird's nests in our turbines. They seem fine avoiding the propeller and may even like it since it protects the young from predators?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6262 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops
Yes and of course make them self-replicating like all those nano-machines from the 1990's...
Weren't self-replicating nanobots supposed to have taken over the entire planet by now? Hey, can they make a self-replicating anything, at any size, yet? Oh I get it: more bullshit. God, people just eat it up don't they? The world's most powerful force: bullshit!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6263 From: Doug Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops
I think you should work on getting a kite to drop heavy things. Try a rock first and stand directly under it to insure an accurate recording of the impact. Dave S. can build an array of kites with party-favors to celebrate "one more breakthrough"...
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6264 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle
 
 
Doug: "There is much IP on catenary suspension of wind turbine between hills etc., both issued and pending, over many years, both mine and that of others."
 
Reply: Yes, WECS Caternary Suspension from terrain is obvious, but therefore weak as IP. The inventive difference noted to this Forum as possible coolIP is using terrain as a specific launching aid, for operation to higher altitudes as a real AWES, rather than mere fixed hosting of non-AWES WECS in a Saddle.
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6265 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Power Curve //Re: Google Alert - makani power
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 16:43 +0000, blturner3 wrote:
Interesting.

Quote First, wing mounted generators allow the Makani AWT to generate power
continuously in a repeated circular flight pattern. Comparably, ground
based, winched kite systems must consume power and change flight
controls during a retract phase at the end of each cycle.
Presumably they consider this the most important point. I consider it
trivial. An AWES has to either be grid connected or feed its power into
an energy storage system because in most applications it cannot match
its output to demand. Just like wind turbines. (Heating and pumping
applications could be exceptions but those are relatively small niche
markets.) Supplying power for the retract phase is therefore easily done
for trivial extra cost.


Quote Second, the onboard generators can be used to provide thrust to hover
the wing in a manner similar to a helicopter, allowing launch and
retrieval of the wing from a small platform.
If the airborne component is only passive material in tension (like most
kites) then it is so light that it can be pulled to a small platform
anyway. They are also contradicting themselves because they have just
said they do not want to provide power for the retract phase. If they
need power to land they need a power supply anyway.


Quote Third, If the wind speed drops or changes directions quickly, the
ability to easily and quickly create thrust can be used to keep the wing
airborne and under precise control.
If the wind is too slow to keep a groundgen kite airborne then it is
also too slow to generate power. In such circumstances it is better to
just retract the kite and keep it protected until the wind is back to a
useful speed. If the wind changes direction a groundgen kite is just as
able to adjust its position as a flygen.


Quote Finally, wing mounted rotors spin at high speeds, allowing them to drive
small, efficient, high RPM generators without a gearbox.
Who are they trying to kid? Their situation is better than it is with
conventional wind turbines which really do turn far slower than ideal
for modern generators. However, their generators could still benefit
from a gearbox. Either way, their mass is high enough to make the kite
inconveniently heavy and inefficient.

If those are the best reasons they can come up with then I am more
convinced than ever that groundgen is the way to go.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6267 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Kite system to set anchors by drops
This is a really cool idea of JoeF's, extending, by kinetic driving, earlier Forum ideas of soft-lander anchors (Seven League Boots topic). Bob's pile-driving app is great, especially if the sea rises while waiting for Doug's Ice Age. Why is it no surprise Doug immediately thought to drop a rock on JoeF, for laughs? Joe, drop cat poop on Doug; that's funnier :)
 
Its going to be easy to rig small gliders to drop tethered spikes or other anchors so they snub up seamlessly into stable kite mode. Hang gliders and paragliders could already drop anchors to land in otherwise impossible terrain, by combinations of winching and winds. Airports could even someday be displaced by dropped winched anchor methods.
 
coolIP for Joe...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6268 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 14:02 +0000, Doug wrote:
The records show that the earth slid slowly into each ice age which
peaked something like 60 000 years after the beginning. The key figure
is called radiative forcing. The forcing that caused the ice ages was
minus a small fraction of a watt per m2. Humanity has caused a warming
of plus 1.6 W/m2. Therefore no more ice ages until CO2 is back to below
about 300 ppm. That might happen in 60 000 years time when the orbital
cooling effect will be at its maximum again.

The figures that thousands of scientists have been paid millions to work
out.

You are misquoting us. Look at the figures and you will see that warming
is a serious danger. The big problems will hit future generations,
living with the mess we are making, in 50 or 150 years times. The hazard
comes not so much from how much CO2 and methane we are putting into the
atmosphere, but how quickly we are doing it.

99.9% of climate scientist are looking at both sides of a very complex
picture. In the few short years since I put up my web page, and done the
work to defend it, I have seen climate scientist take the gloves off and
produce ever more alarming figures. There are cooling and warming
effects. The warming deniers I have come across all fail to look at the
figures and add them up. The figures show the cooling effects being
overwhelmed and scary warming resulting. That is the beauty and power of
science because when the results show there is only 1 side to the story
then that is that. End of story.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6269 From: dave santos Date: 5/11/2012
Subject: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates
JoeF, That Pirate Utopia Story is ancient stuff, with a lot of errors and omissions, but here is an Epilogue-
 
 
"Tiny" was one of many itinerants hoping to be smart and cool enough for a position with Portland Oregon's legendary Clown House collective. His dangerous vibe and big hunting knife failed to impress, so he was moved along. Still, he really had apprenticed with a hero of mine, Papa Neutrino, on several ocean rafts made from scap, and i was eager to apprentice in that amazing DIY technology. When i ended up on the coast doing AWE R&D, Tiny accepted my eager invitation to build a scrap raft powered by kites.
 
Unlucky for him, my "shy partner", as Portland Indy Media put it, turned out to be a retired FBI profiler, an uncanny judge of character, and she would not even let him in the house. I suspected nothing, except that his dog, a purported "Isreali Rescue Dog", liked to bite children, and his Rabbi shtick was undercut by a poor knowledge of that office. With the help of imported Portland Earth First kids we cobbled up a 70ft hull from scrap, with Papa Neutrino consulting by phone from a cardiac unit back East.
 
One day the Feds showed up and hauled Tiny away to Arizonia, where he had jumped parole for a youthful crime of almost killing his biz partner. I did get him pretty mad discussing Jewish theology in excessive detail, but he never jumped me with his knife. He knew i worked as a fish cleaner as a kid, and trained as a real Mexican Ninja, so don't blame him for not ending up as sushi. Instead, he ended up in Sheriff Joe's (Arpaio) famous tent prison in the broiling Arizona Sun, after suffering horribly for months in the winter-chill rainforest climate of Ilwaco. Who knew crime does not pay?
 
Earth First continued the scrap raft while i prepared its scrap-kite rig, but a weaselly saboteur in their group sawed the hull in half, which was a final straw, given so many better boats going begging at the Port. My kite-boating proceeded just fine from borrowed boats, from kayaks in the Level 4 Lower Columbia River, to a 60ft refurbished aluminum ketch offshore, kiting with whales.
 
My brother is a corporate profiler for the leading company, Profiles International, based in Waco, Texas, so along with my ex-FBI profiler girlfriend, we profile leading figures in AWE to presort frauds from potential heroes for WOWUSA offers. My bro's company uses batteries of  online tests, but we are able to gather the same sort of data form VC videos and press releases. I look frame-by-frame at micro-expressions by the VCs, as they attempt baseless claims, to judge fraud from simple incompetence.
 
I am not a Pirate Clown* here in Austin, but a droll Border Bandit on a puppet horse bike (The Mexican newspapers in the Zeta Cartel region refer to me as "un especie de Don Quixote"). The Ilwaco Mafia Finns, who in the article paved our hipster community garden in an allergic reaction, have been won over to the kite experiments, which are vitally informed by the local fishing traditions. THE END.
 
If anybody wants a free profile, just ask. My brother has agreed to make his company's online tests available to us on a trial basis, and we probably already have a KG focus group version, if you are a big AWE player.
 
 
* The Flower-in-the-Blunderbuss was my bit, and Tiny stole it.
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6270 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: //Re: Google Alert - makani power / Moller's Flying Car?
I can buy a "flying car" off the shelf today and in fact I am thinking of it, since I have a decent "hanger" and "airport" right here, and I've heard that powered parachute buggies are the funnest way to fly, as well as being relatively safe and cheap. (?)

That is 40 years after reading about Moller's efforts to develop a flying car, in Popular Science Magazine, announcing a two-year lead-time for commercialization. In the ensuing decades, I've gone from a kid who couldn't wait to get a copy of PopSci, to an inventor that answers the phone and it is PopSci wanting to come and visit and do an article. I have to pinch myself - that was too easy! Moller's flying car? Still "about two years out", last I read. I think that was about two years ago. I've lost interest and have not checked lately but I imagine the Moller flying car is probably "about two years out". How different is the 6-rotor flying car from Dave S.' R/C quadcopter, also from decades ago?

What I've noticed is that some categories of invention will always be in R & D mode, always announcing the same lead time, which never changes. That lead time is in years, (usually about 2 years) and yet it doesn't change for decades. Meanwhile others leapfrog the technology with simpler technologies that are not as impressive, but actually work. Last I read, about two years ago, Makani's lead time was about 2 years. Personally, I noticed I always had a lead time of 2 months, til the 2-month periods began stacking up, and so I stopped announcing lead times, and just started admitting I am just "busy" and "overworked", etc.

The hybrid cars powered by small gas turbine engines were supposed to be in everyones' garage by the 1980's, but somehow they remained always "a decade away" until they were forgotten, and the piston engine became grandfathered in as the only I.C. choice. To this day the only economical hybrid cars add a whole new system and hundreds of pounds in exchange for a little regenerative braking - hardly the gas-turbine revolution we were promised, and decades late. Couldn't they have just used a spring? Not sure what the college kid will do when his $2000 used Prius needs a $5,000 battery pack, but I guess we will cross that bridge in a couple of years. Of course by that time we will all be driving Moller flying cars anyway...

Or you can buy the 3-ton Chevy Volt, that drives like a giant cement block, for about twice what a gas car and fuel would cost, but the government makes up the difference, by bailing out GM and then giving you a tax break for buying it...

Wind energy is already too intermittent. Any system that cannot produce continuous power at least when it IS windy will have a really low capacity factor, trading less power for more cost for the added power storage. And remember, if economical electric power storage is ever achieved, it will make wind energy obsolete since electricity is almost free at night.

Doug S. (Not that infernal Dave S.) (doh!) :)

PS:
Ice Age Interglacial 11,000 year lead time until cooling, starting 11,000 years ago
Breakthrough Inventions: 2 year lead time, starting 2 years ago...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6271 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Copcutt <r@...
***** OK we agree that the reason the "scientists" have come up with these alarming prediction is that they have been paid millions to do so. It's well-known that "scientists" must agree with this dogma to keep their job, promote it to advance their job, and question it to end their career.

*****Nope you just THINK it's the end of the story. You've ended your rant with the typical name-calling that warming promoters can't resist, calling the other side the detractive label "deniers" that implies their argument is not only wrong, but that the people in some way have questionable morals because they don't believe your alarming predictions.

*****Just as the Moller FLying Car will always have a two-year lead time, the danger of rising seas will always have a 2-decade lead time. This is the year 2012 Robert. We were supposed to have ocean levels a few feet higher by now, and be navigating Manhattan by boat. Entire "nations" were to have "disappeared" under the water by the trick of naming small, temporary, coral-reef "islands" in areas with natural subduction as "nations".

*****Even THAT trick hasn't worked, as even these already-sinking islands have failed to be covered with water after decades of scare-stories. It's 2012. This stuff is supposed to all be history by now. The ocean levels have not changed. At some point you have to see "global warming" as one more "Moller Flying Car" with a "projected-lead-time that" that never changes, and a progression that appears to move forward, but when more closely examined, remains always at the same spot.

*****I suggest you go back and read the predictions from the 1990's of impending doom for now. I think all the whales and polar bears were supposed to be dead by now, but last I read the polar bears are suffering from a population explosion. Yes the same polar bears constantly shown huddled on a teeny, disappearing iceberg, with sad music and a narrator lamenting their demise - yes those polar bears, having a population explosion. One more fact that anyone can look up but few do.

*****Yes everything politically-correct stands reality on its head. While the polar bears have a population explosion, we're told they are disappearing. Of course! Astute people notice that entire classes of people are almost incapable of telling the truth about anything. If they are paid by the government for their opinion, then they will generate the opinion their employer pays for.

*****So we will stay tuned, and you just let me know when the world ends from "Global Warming", K? Meanwhile I feel bad for all the people who froze to death in Europe and Eastern Europe last winter which was exceptionally harsh and extremely cold over there.
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6272 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
On Sat, 2012-05-12 at 14:22 +0000, Doug wrote:
The point is that governments have been alarmed at the climate figures
that scientists have produced to date so they are spending unusually
large sums to get more accurate figures. It is about deciding whether we
need to spend 1%, 2% or 4% of GDP on supporting renewables etc.

The budget for climate research is insignificant compared to the
inconvenience the facts are causing the fossil fuel industry. See
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/07-2

In private people say what they really believe. I have met many climate
scientists and not one has in any way ever hinted to me in private that
they have any doubts about the reality of the warming danger. I
understand the science so I can quickly spot flaws in the reports. The
vast majority of the flaws I have only ever spotted are in the arguments
used by deniers.

Your morals are in question because you keep misquoting what people say
on the subject.

I challenge you to find me a single quality report from the last century
that predicted such things by 2012. 2112 maybe, but not 2012. I am not
asking you to waste your time looking, I am suggesting you not be so
stubborn.

Sea level is rising about 3mm per year at the moment. That may not sound
like much but a foot per century is more serious for anyone with
consideration for future generations.

Again, I challenge you to find me one prediction claiming those things
would happen by 2012.

The truth about the climate is politically extremely inconvenient. It
puzzles me why you cannot see that the vested interests that want to
deny warming are far greater than those that benefit from the reality of
the data. Most people here could be doing a range of other things. We
choose AWE because we think it will bring benefits. No one has become
rich from doing it yet. The motivation is benefiting the planet.

The predictions are that we will not live long enough to see it. It is
the future generations that will suffer if nothing is done.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6273 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
A clever screwdriver called the Kobalt Double Drive sold out over the US winter holiday season. As one twists the hand to and fro, the screwdriver turns continuously in one direction, cutting screw-driving time almost in half. Surgeons are excited over medical versions, as even small savings in operating table time are golden.
 
KiteLab Group noted this device last year as an attractive experimental AWES transmission element for rectifying pumping kite inputs to rotating loads (like geared generators). It contains a classic differential gear, and equivalent devices could be quickly developed at even meagscale from COTS gearsets. This method reduces the need for flywheel-mass and other power-smoothing. One still needs double-pumping or elastic-return, and usually multi-gearing, for practical electrical generation by kites.
 
The inventors of the Double Drive screwdriver presumably did not envision reverse-driving a differential-gear-based tool by kite. The differential-gear AWES idea is claimed as coolIP. The popular screwdriver will soon again be sold via Lowes online, and later once again stocked on store shelves, but an impatient experimenter can cobble up an AWES demonstrator from stock RC car parts, or a salvaged differential such as a rider mower, car, truck, or tractor transmission.
 
 
coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6274 From: blturner3 Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Dynamic Plummet Mode? (Inverted Wind Gradients)
Your suggesting that the Makani wing can't turn fast enough while diving to maintain it's circular path and avoid crashing into the ground if it runs into a inverted wind gradient.

Yes, If a kite does not have enough control authority designed into it that could happen. The same is true of all kites.

So everyone please note. Design more turning ability than you think you will need and never depend on all of it.

Get out of the boundary layer and this is one more problem that basically goes away.

Brian

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6275 From: blturner3 Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations
Answered inline--

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6276 From: Doug Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates
Wow Dave S., n ice story! Reminds me of a show I just saw on Science Channel, where a researcher sought to define the characteristics of a psychopath. He studied brain scans and genetic profiles of known psychopaths from the prisoner population, compared to "normal" people. He found distinct clusterings of brain scans that matched the genetics, that in turn matched the psychopaths.

Then a relative recommended he check out his own family, telling him he was related to Lizzy Borden. Realizing he had a leading rock band - er um I mean psychopath in the family, he proceeded. Whew, luckily everyone turned out to be "normal"... except the researcher himself!

All the relatives breathed a sigh of relief, first at being declared officially "normal", and second at learning the explanation of why their researcher-relative had always seemed a little "off". The researcher opined that in his own case, his psychopathic tendencies were channeled toward "good" (research and living a decent life) since he had not yet murdered anyone and had never even been to jail, due to a happy childhood and being treated well in his formative years.

He said that if he had been treated badly as a lad, his tendencies may have somehow been channeled toward an outcome that would have resulted in a lifetime of trouble and he'd probably have ended up in jail. I think a couple of the genes they identified were a "warrior gene" and a "don't give a f*** gene".

The researcher himself further identified that many seemingly-highly effective people, such as certain business icons, often highly regarded corner-office material, have some of these "psychopathic" aspects, that can allow them to climb to the top. The "don't give a f*** gene" allowed them to lead people on, with seeming empathy that was, at its heart, insincere, all the while screwing them over. This sort of behavior was sometimes effective in climbing the corporate ladder, at least to a certain height.

But on closer study, he found that when impartially assessed for actual results, the well-regarded and seemingly-successful business people with psychopathic traits were largely ineffective - they delivered few measurable accomplishments. They were basically all-talk and no action. Bigmouths with no results.

"Aha!" I thought, Those are the people I call fullashidiots!"

With so many profilers in the family, are there any rock stars? Where's a Lizzy Borden when you need one?
Whatever your findings, I hope it's not another case of "takes one to know one"... :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6277 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Ask Damon: Offshore Operations
Brian,
 
Thanks again for debating on behalf of Makani/Joby's AWES architecture.
 
You wrote- "I was wondering why you had not jumped on this before. " regarding Makani/Joby's choice of a symmetric foil for their prop/turbine blades. The answer is that you are coming to the Forum late, then despairing of ever reading all the old posts, then imagining that we overlooked such obvious issues. So lets be patient as the old points reemerge one-by-one. Its nice you address KiteLab's competing architectures in this debate, posing good questions for all AWES architectures.
 
Bird poop is clearly not an equal danger to all architectures. High performance laminar wings are worst affected by perching pooping birds, high performance is essentially destroyed. Slower wings are less affected. Soft wings furled away into sleeves or bags are not affected. KiteLab thinking is that you need humans for the many jobs like inspecting for and cleaning poop, just as Doug suggests. Any system with specific single-points-of-failure such as a pitot or static ports is uniquely vulnerable to fouling: Airliners having been lost by these events. KiteLab designs do not depend on these vulnerabilities.
 
VTOL by rotorcraft is not operationally the same as ordinary kites. The safety and robustness of rotor VTOL is statistically inferior to all other basic aircraft categories. You seem not yet aware that settling-under-power can occur with the best piloting in many marginal conditions, and that flight automation is hardly mature enough to be the adequate preventative you imagine. Brooks Coleman ended up with the old quadcopter cited, and he may be reading this. It was a small Japanese toy, a real marvel.
 
To argue that today's better batteries (etc.) are a sort of green-light is misleading, as our old Ni-Cads had a fantastic current capacity, so the main trade-off was with flight duration and weight, not instanateous power required for proof-of-concept. It was newbie JoeBen who infamously went around saying the new batteries were the answer to AWE, and now you are buying that silly position. Kitelab avoids flying on expensive batteries alltogether. KIS rules.
 
The Tarp Arch depends on highly inspectable engineered rope in good condition for its inherent reliability. Multiple ropes to multiple anchors provide a redundancy impossible with single line designs. The "tarp" kixels self-isolate any local failure, and collectively will achieve extreme high statistical safety. But more fundamentally, you need to study the relation of mass and velocity to inherent flight risk, and how this has molded FAA Flight Regs. For starters, consider being hit by a slow-falling tarp and rope compared to a high-velocity impact by rigid wings, high-mass generators and so forth. You won't need bunkers to work under tarps. Its your newbie perception that causes you to think such reasoning is a KiteLab claim of "magically safe".  Nothing is magically safe in aviation; safety takes hard careful work, that's KiteLab's attitude.
 
Don't be fooled in thinking Makani's hi-voltage system is closely comparable to conventional offshore turbines. The complex  flight requirement on a long tether clearly makes for extra vulnerabilities. Understand as well that offshore is a far more hostile and remote aviation operations regime, so that risk of aircraft loss drives the economics, much as human safety counts for more on land.
 
To several questions you seemed to think- "You train the control system to handle it and your [sic] done. That is not dismissing it, that is solving it.". Sorry Brian, its not so easy as you imply to do good flight automation, and in fact all you did was dismiss., not program a solution. Go ahead, program a flying machine, and we'll fly it off against the Low Complexity school. Similarly, you stated- "If a robot needs a sensor to deal with a issue you just give it one.", which displays innocence about how safety-critical automation is developed and validated, not to mention realtime issues, sensor uncertainty, and many other traps.
 
You missed the old Forum discussion where it was discussed how actuation "churn" is mostly an issue for expensive and delicate flight-qualified servos, but that ground-based servos can be specified from heavy industrial types to be more powerful, longer-lasting (overbuilt), and cheaper.
 
Let me know if i missed answering any key point of yours, but i can't see that you scored for Makani on any particular.  Makain/Joby should be helping you defend their architecture, out of decency to your admiration for them, but they have no secret super-smart solutions in reserve. Once this thin pretense is blown, its probably over for them with even dumb investors, when, with so many millions, they could have led a truly classy science-based AWES R&D program encompassing the global community, and been heroes.
 
daveS

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6278 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: Pirate Epilogue //Re: [AWES] Pirates
Poor Doug,
 
Why compare your watching a show on the Science Channel with my kite kayaking the maelstroms and gales of the Lower Columbia? You are too harsh on yourself,  lamenting "all-talk and no action", "bigmouths with no results", and " fullashidiots".  Keep up the science lessons and never give up! Try and always have AWE content in your posts as well.
 
Since you ask, the rock star in my family is my Dad, an aviator's aviator. His most recent AWE input was in assessing the settling-under-power risk to Makani's AWT over a large ocean swell. His 60,000 hours of actual flight flickered over his face as he simulated the question in his mind. Of course he has never bothered to post a word to this Forum, but i share him so you can learn to really fly,
 
daveS
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6279 From: dave santos Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)
A reminder that we are putting together an AWES-based entry to the NYC Land Art initiative, and its down to the last seven weeks before this major energy art contest deadline. All are invited. Success will mean a lot for AWE's public image.
 
We know that kites are favored by the peculiar condition of the Staten Island Landfill recovered parkland. The large unstable hill is covered by a sensitive layer (membrane/soil/turf), which makes massive wind sculptures or any considerable structure impractical. We can fly our energy-art above the hill, with all machinery or anchor functions on solid ground outside the sensitive zone, and only light fabric and line landing on the hilltop. We have our NYC team directly scouting the site this week and organizing an strong NYC team component for us.
 
JoeF recently featured the admirable but also-ran kite concept by Lateral Office and Paisajes Emergentes. We should invite them to recycle their work into ours, for a far stronger entry- Luis Callejas, Sebastián Mejia, Edgar mazo, Alexander Laing
 
We also should reach out to Laurie Chetwood Associates, an elite UK based architecture firm with a affinity concept, the Wind Dam.
 
We are hoping to use the new giant tarp arch as a demonstrated engineering basis for lofting elaborate wind and light effects that will be visible from Manhattan. Anyone who has suitable WECS to loft, the more the better. Kitelab has a dozen or so AWE workcells to contribute, some old, some new.
 
We hope Roddy, PierreB, and others can help with concept graphics and other entry content, including technical design and specs.
 
Util, WOWUSA, and Fat Cat Cafe (NYC) are sponsors, covering basic entry preparation costs.
 
All ideas are welcome. Volunteers are needed for every kind of task. A winning entry will be a massive effort and must be super-wonderful.
 
================
 
Freshkills Park. In partnership with New York City's Department of Parks &
Recreation, the 2012 Land Art Generator Initiative design competition is being
held for ...
landartgenerator.org/competition.html - Cached - Similar
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6280 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6281 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/12/2012
Subject: Re: NYC Land Art Competition Update (Final Call)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6282 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
Here is a article of interest,
 
                                    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/21/us-geoengineering-idUSTRE69K18320101021 Playing God with the only planet we have is insanity.
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       Dan'l 
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: r@copcutt.me.uk
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 16:35:09 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6283 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
Hi David,
 
                   Thanks for bringing this to attention.
 
                                                            Dan'l
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 10:52:21 -0700
Subject: [AWES] Double-Driving AWES Transmissions

 
A clever screwdriver called the Kobalt Double Drive sold out over the US winter holiday season. As one twists the hand to and fro, the screwdriver turns continuously in one direction, cutting screw-driving time almost in half. Surgeons are excited over medical versions, as even small savings in operating table time are golden.
 
KiteLab Group noted this device last year as an attractive experimental AWES transmission element for rectifying pumping kite inputs to rotating loads (like geared generators). It contains a classic differential gear, and equivalent devices could be quickly developed at even meagscale from COTS gearsets. This method reduces the need for flywheel-mass and other power-smoothing. One still needs double-pumping or elastic-return, and usually multi-gearing, for practical electrical generation by kites.
 
The inventors of the Double Drive screwdriver presumably did not envision reverse-driving a differential-gear-based tool by kite. The differential-gear AWES idea is claimed as coolIP. The popular screwdriver will soon again be sold via Lowes online, and later once again stocked on store shelves, but an impatient experimenter can cobble up an AWES demonstrator from stock RC car parts, or a salvaged differential such as a rider mower, car, truck, or tractor transmission.
 
 
coolIP


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6284 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
 
The double drive screwdriver may have an underlying broad patent claim to the effect that the core invention covers any transmission of a reciprocating input to a rotary output. If so, its unclear if such a claim is binding on AWE designers, or is overly broad. Someone should check this out before anyone over-commits to the method. We should be able to find prior art for overly broad claims.
 
Correction: I mistakenly wrote "backdrive" in the original post, but "drive" is the correct word.
 
Many thanks for the nice thanks for this item, Dan'l, but feel free to do so off-forum, as i hate to be the cause of so many technical folks opening nontechnical content. The hot Climate thread is also mostly not on topic; we risk a loss of essential focus, and a drop in members, if these habits persist. The list is no longer low-traffic, and we have well over a hundred members.
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6285 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Mitigating a sudden Ice Age with Kites
While Doug is incredibly dogmatic in his climate-change opinions, any proper climate scientist gracefully allows for uncertainty, and will concede the possibility that an Ice Age could in fact be a threat, albeit at lowered probability. So if a sudden Ice Age begins with catastrophic consequences, then the kite once again beckons as a potent geoengineering tool. A particularly effective countermeasure would be to spread soot or biochar cheaply by kite over the growing ice pack, strongly promoting melting and retention of solar heat.
 
We are already geoengineering in an incompetent way on a global scale. We "play God" every time we make a road or clear a field. Who would decline to play God by diverting an asteroid about to destroy Earth? It increasingly seems as if we must competently geoengineer to hope to balance human happiness with Nature, or face mass die-off on all sides.
 
Doug seems never to address solid data-sets like the shocking loss of tropical ice packs, a hint of confirmation bias, where he only sees what he wants. He jumped at the Bering Sea Ice Record this year, which was caused by unusual high winds accumulating ice there, when in fact overall sea ice was below average. The cold wind responsible are predicted by climate-change theory, as the normal temperature stratification of the atmosphere is stirred more. Thus expect scattered reports of record surface cold within the pattern of overall warming.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6286 From: Doug Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
Hi Robert:
Well I do seem to enjoy debating over global warming, so I will continue with you. First of all, regarding scientists agreeing with the party line: I have quite a few friends who are top-notch government scientists.

They all get a paycheck from Uncle Sam, either directly or indirectly. They all have a specialty besides climate. They don't really know anything more about climate than anyone else. They say I am the smartest person they know. That's hard to swallow, since I know I am so dumb... I feel honored in my dumbness.

Anyway these guys don't even really have a strong opinion one way or the other on climate, and end up asking me what I think. But if they're putting together a proposal for funding and it can mention lowering greenhouse gas emissions or anything of the sort, it gets extra brownie-points for funding and everyone knows it.

Polls of "scientists" showing a "concensus" can include 6th grade science teachers. They are unlikely to have an original thought on the subject, and almost by definition will agree with whatever the politically-correct party line is perceived to be. Hint: things that we know are right are not called "politically correct", they are just called "correct".

Every science show I watch finds some way to tie in the horror story, whether it's a show on planets where they play sad music while explaining why, say, Venus is so hot, or a show on Earth's formation, where any geological layer triggers some discussion of "climate change" with some little implication that CO2 is a leading, rather than a following, indicator for temperature.

You know as well as I do that they purposely leave out the part where Venus is closer to the sun and instead try to blame the 800 degree surface temperatures on higher CO2 content, whereas thinking people ask, as I did in 3rd grade when they first were setting the stage for our future ignorance, "Could the fact that Venus is closer to the sun have anything to do with its higher temperatures?" and secondly "Is it not obvious that the atmospheric content is more an effect of being closer to the sun and therefor being hotter, so everything organic boils off into the atmosphere, than a cause"?

Government scientists end up doing the job they are hired to do which is to act like bureaucrats, running programs, generating reports, and most of all, fitting into the system. They are busy and do not have time to independently analyze, say, climate, from scratch. They instead rely on other bureaucrats to generate valid opinions in their own specialty.

This strategy is logical and mostly effective. It only falters when there is an agenda that demands that the facts come out a certain way. Then the scientists who can generate those "facts" get the funding, and so that is the way science is seen to go, with or without the facts. Science, historically, despite its best efforts, does NOT always get the facts right. Sometimes official science is mistaken for years.

OK now that we've addressed the plethora of personalities that you want to throw at the discussion, I'd like to discuss another fact. Note we've only had to look at one fact so far, the scientific concensus of an 11,000-year length of the average interglacial, which began, according to scientific concensus, 11,000 years ago.

Now we are going to complicate this discussion, that had only 1 fact, with a second fact. Can your mind handle a second fact? OK let's give it a go:

Back when the alarm bells initially started their incessant peal, I first congratulated myself on predicting that the panic over "cooling" had neatly switched over to "warming", exactly on cue, as predicted, without skipping a beat. Bingo.

The first thing I wanted to do was see what their scientific argument was, and find a hole in it. It was far easier than I expected. Their main argument had a hole you could drive a truck through, and, true to form, simply stood reality on its head, substituting a complete lie as its foundational "fact".

Every theory has basic, foundational facts that it starts with, called "assumptions". The global warming nightmare story relied on an unstoppable runaway heating process that, once started, would snowball and build on itself, so that what started as a little melting would quickly turn into a huge amount of warming. It was to be relentless and unstaoppable. It was to get way worse, very fast, then faster and faster after that. Panic-time. That unstoppable runaway scenario is why sea levels were supposed to have risen a few feet by now.

There was not a warning that in centuries we might have sea levels a foot higher. That was not enough to scare people. It was many feet higher, and it was decades, even years, not a century. Certainly by 2020 we could expect Venice to have completely subsided, which it's land is conveniently doing without any actual change in the sea level.

Anyway here's the single fact I examined, that the whole house of cards is built on, and they gloss over the main assumption, which is presented as the opposite of reality. Are you ready for the one fact they have wrong?

That "melting arctic sea ice allows the water below to be warmed by the sun". This one, simple wrong fact that the entire doom & gloom scenario is based on, is 100% wrong! OK let me explain it:

The story goes like this: Increased levels of CO2 will cause some atmospheric warming, which will cause arctic sea ice to melt. Open water in the Arctic Ocean allows sunlight to enter the arctic water, warming it. We'll stop there for now.

The simple question I asked was this:
Does melted sea ice actually allow the water to be warmed by the sun, or is does the sea ice instead act as an insulator, or blanket?

The concept that occurred to me was all I had learned in thermodynamics about "black body radiation", that everything has a temperature and everything emits thermal radiation in a band of photonic frequencies proportional to its temperature.

Then I remembered that the Earth is hotter inside, and that heat always flows from hot to cold. Therefore Earth is a net emitter of heat. I repeat: EARTH IS A NET EMITTER OF HEAT. That is the key fact to keep in mind.

If you could see in the infrared, Earth would be seen as glowing like a star. Giving off radiation. Giving off more than it absorbs (or else it would be cooler in the center). One could call the Earth a very brown mini-dwarf star, powered by its own internal low-grade nuclear furnace. Summary: The Earth is a net emitter of heat.

Proceeding from acknowledging that Earth is a net emitter of heat, NOT a net absorber, the next question is "Where does the Earth absorb the most heat" and "Where does the Earth emit the most heat?", and finally "Where does the balance between absorbing heat and emitting heat consist of more heat emission than absorption? In other words, what part of the Earth experiences a net emission of heat, on balance?

Another way of asking this question, is to first acknowledge that the Earth is always cooling itself, then to ask where that cooling takes place. Guess where? The arctic oceans when the sea ice has melted. Yup, you got it. The place where the propaganda assumes the most heat is absorbed, is actually where the most heat is emitted, on balance! Once again, reality stood on its head!

Once again I turned to 3rd-grade level information to get back to simple facts: I remembered we were taught that ice could act as insulation and could keep people warm! Remembering that Eskimos build igloos to keep warm, not for their air-conditioning value, I asked if the arctic sea ice might also serve as an insulator. Could it be that, like an igloo, sea-ice could act like insulation keeping the warm water below from emitting its warmth into space as black-body radiation? That seemed logical, actually.

Then the question goes back to "where does the Earth emit the most radiation in proportion to how much it absorbs?" The answer? The Arctic oceans of course! The water is comparatively warm, having been warmed by the tropical sun and then flowed to the poles. That is called "Earth's Air Conditioner": warm, tropical sea water flowing to the poles to cool. To cool it must give off heat. It cannot give off heat if it is covered in ice. The ice prevents the water below from cooling.

So I googled "sea ice" and "insulator". I quickly found the actual fact:
Sea ice is indeed an insulator. It has been well-known since day-one that melting sea ice allows the water below to cool. Arctic waters even visibly give off "steam" when the sea-ice melts and the warm waters evaporate. That warms the air above, which radiates that warmth out into space, cooling the Earth.

When the water has sufficiently cooled, the sea ice reforms. It is a self-stabilizing cycle, not a potential runaway condition. Why? Because the more ice melts, the more the water cools, and the faster the ice can reform. The cycle lasts 30 years. It's variously called "decadal oscillation" or "multi-decadal oscillation".

A little logic confirms this: If the Earth is a net emitter of heat, and most solar absorption takes place near the equator, the poles must, by definition, be strong net emitters of heat. And the strongest net emission must be from the comparatively warm open arctic waters, imported from equatorial regions.

The sun impinges on the arctic seas at a very flat angle that encourages most photons to bounce off the water as a reflection anyway. Think of the glare you see at the poles when you look at a picture of Earth taken from space. Again, the poles are where the Earth is a net emitter of heat.

The only thing that can STOP that net emission is a nice, insulating blanket of sea ice, preferably covered with a further insulating blanket of snow, that virtually guarantees that almost zero net emission of heat can occur, inevitably leading to accumulated warming of the water below, eventually causing the temporary melting of that ice, which then allows the water to cool, starting the whole cycle over.

So there you have it: The concept that melted sea ice presents a danger of "runaway warming" due to increased absorption of heat, from solar radiation, by the arctic oceans, is the exact opposite of reality! The well-known decadal oscillation proves this. The facts have been presented as opposite to the reality. The entire foundation of the scare-story: runaway global warming due to solar absorption by open arctic oceans" is the exact opposite of the truth.

The truth is that if arctic oceans melt, that allows the water below to cool since the sun just bounces off while the water emits black-body radiation, that it could not, if covered with ice.

So there is fact number two. Melted sea ice allows the water below to cool, not get hotter. Has your poor, overburdened and bullshit-assaulted mind been able to understand this one, single, simple fact? Or has the constant assault of misinformation rendered your surviving brain cells as useless jelly by now, too battered consider or to take in even a single fact?

What do you think about what the well-known multidecadal oscillation means for the basis of the scare story, that open arctic waters are net absorbers of heat, rather than net emitters? Which do you say is correct?

This is what I mean when I say, the facts have long ago been abandoned in favor of injecting a lot of confusion based on personalities. Science is not about taking polls of how many elementary-school science teachers agree with some theory and citing that as evidence. Science is about constructing logical trains of events that provide solid and logical explanations for phenomenae that we need to understand.

The minute you start reading about a "concensus" of "opinion" rather than a logical presentation of scientific facts or a legitimate examination of a proposed series of events, you know you are no longer dealing with science, but instead "science" with finger-quotes, and finger-pointing. Real science sticks with facts and does not need to cite how many people agree, whatever their credentials or lack thereof.

Joe Friday said it best:
"Just the facts Ma'm."

:)
Doug S.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6287 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6288 From: dave santos Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: SteamPunk AWES 101- Hit-and-Miss Engines and Watt Governors
Students of AWE can find a wealth of prior engine art for mechanical kite energy applications. Here are two good examples relating to ensuring a steady output from dancing kites-
 
Flywheel Engines have obvious kite applicability. The Hit-and-Miss method matches a variable "kicking" input into a steady-rotating variable load-
 
A hit-and-miss engine is a type of four-stroke internal combustion engine that was
conceived in the late 19th century and was produced by various companies ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit-and-miss_engine - Cached - Similar
 
The old Watt Governor remains an essential mechanical regulator-
 
Centrifugal governor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A centrifugal governor is a specific type of governor that controls the speed of an
engine by regulating the amount of fuel (or working fluid) admitted, so as to ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_governor - Cached - Similar
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6289 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/13/2012
Subject: Re: SteamPunk AWES 101- Hit-and-Miss Engines and Watt Governors
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6290 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle
Doug,
You're not suggesting I follow a consensus of opinion are you?
As an artist / wannabe inventor, I thought my mission was to mix things up and invent for purpose.
We went over this design before.

What's the harm in trying anyway?
I "think" the beginner (low AOA) kites I am using...  have a low speed / highly stable profile.
They are all set out on the ring perimeter, each one as the tip of a not there blade.

So, probably not as much trailing edge vortex wash or air mixing in my wishy washy imagination.

So, these kites might not reach the ideal rotational speed for the fluid going past... 
Isn't that a similar story in the turbine of a jet? (I may be very wrong here..)
How many blades do you see on those turbines? 2 or the optimal 3 ? NO oh NO.
flicking loads. and quite a bit of useful torque being pulled out of them too.

I'll let you know as honestly as I can how it goes.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6291 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: The Future of Wind Power by Archer on April 16, 2008
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6292 From: Doug Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
There's nothing more humorous/pathetic than the continued, desperate stabs at getting something - anything - to "work", on paper that is, in AWE.

Starting with the idea that a mature wind energy industry exists, using steady-state lift-based low-solidity circular rotors, developed over 3000 years of steady progress, with the challenge being to reach stronger winds that are more consistent, to solve the capacity-factor and intermittency issues, the first thing that would-be innovators do is:
1) propose pulsating methods that reintroduce the original source of intermittency, solved 3000 years ago with the first rotating turbines, while lowering the capacity factor.
2) make these methods drag-based with 100% solidity too insure inefficient operation.

Why? Newbies ALWAYS start with a cloth surface (why waste the money a hard surface would cost?) being simply pushed downwind. Why? It's what is simple and easy to understand. For a beginner. To acknowledge that high-speed rotating blades using the principle of lift allow superior power extraction using a fraction of the materials, is to meet the minimum requirements of anyone purporting to even know the ABC's of wind energy, is far too much to ask. Rather than meeting the minimum requirements for discussing wind energy, there is NO minimum requirement.

No instead, endless designs are proposed with the ridiculousness quickly proceeding to the "you can't make this stuff up" "truth is stranger than fiction" level of absurdity. By the time I read Dave S. seriously proposing that party noisemakers could play a significant role, I realized that this whole discussion is more than ridiculous - it is a complete joke. The whole dynamic of this list is worth a study in itself! Endlessly entertaining, I must admit.

So the first thing is to throw the possibility of increased availability due to more consistent winds out the window. Why? A lack of experience in wind energy leads the would-be innovator to attempt to ignore the previous 3000 years of slowly-accumulated knowledge, indeed to refuse to learn any of that stuff, as it is perceived as irrelevant. The idea is to sound like a complete uneducated idiot for anyone with experience in wind energy, while sounding like a genius to others with no experience in wind energy.

Rather than standing on the shoulders of giants, to climb even that high is too difficult. Better to pretend the giants don't exist, or are somehow irrelevant, and stand on the ground, looking up hundreds of feet at ground-supported machines already reaching higher than most "airborne" prototypes, 'til your neck hurts.

The pulsating drag-based designs discussed here, if ever built, serve only to place previous bad ideas into the sky, insuring inefficient use of materials by turning the clock back over 3000 years

We've gone from real, operating, megawatt turbines that you can pick up the phone and order, to complicated proposed-on-paper-only, crashing, drag-based pulsating monstrosities that will never produce a watt of power and that will indeed never even be built.

Serious proposals of things like party noisemakers as energy solutions is the result: There is NO standard here. ANYTHING is good enough to be "equal" to everything else. Let's combine pulsating, drag-based kites with reversible screwdrivers and now we are really cooking with gas, no? "Yaaaaaah" I say in some strange accent...

Brainstorming is one thing - a brain tornado that leaves nothing but destruction in its wake is another. It's considered good to have an open mind. But a mind too open can't hold anything and just lets everything fall out. Like Mr. Whoopee's closet.

I think Tennessee Tuxedo needs to have an episode where Mr. Whoopee explains how wind energy works so some if the more "open minds" can perhaps receive even a teeny clue as to how wind energy works.

I had a visitor the other day (Yahhhhhhhhh) who brought his patented, heavy, vertical-axis drag-based project here on the back of a truck the other day, to show me what he had accomplished in building it, and to show me that it could spin in a very light wind. He wanted to couple it with one of my generators.

The first thing I explained was that it could never develop enough power to spin one of my generators, due to its swept area not being large enough to produce sufficient power, no matter how "superior" the design.

The next thing I did was break out an 8-foot-diameter wooden propeller, weighing less than 1 lb., made in a few minutes from a piece of 1x4 lumber, purchased from Home Depot for $1, supported on a screwdriver. Guess which rotor spun faster? While my visitor's heavy machine slowly rotated in about a 4 or 5 mph wind, I struggled to hold the screwdriver supporting my insanely-spinning 8-foot rotor, running unloaded in a 5 mph wind. Even a 5 mph wind can easily get your unloaded blade tips traveling at over 100 mph. My rotor spinning on the screwdriver in a 5 mph max wind was getting pretty loud and I was having a hard time holding onto the screwdriver, and I think my new friend started to understand that wind turbines are indeed made with propellers for a reason: it's the best way yet discovered to extract the most energy, using the least materials, in the most cost-efficient and reliable way.

OK I gotta go. I don't think I am talking to anyone but me and I don't need a computer or the internet for that. Well then again, the guys at Makani are probably having a laugh over this too.

Seeya on New Years - bring me a party noisemaker and we can fly kites using reversible screwdrivers, K?
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6293 From: Dan Parker Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012
For Dave Santos to contemplate.
 
                                       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUYzYdL1E4&feature=player_embedded#!  Either we are the cure of we are the problem.
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dan'l 
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 15:34:21 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2012

 
Hi Robert:
Well I do seem to enjoy debating over global warming, so I will continue with you. First of all, regarding scientists agreeing with the party line: I have quite a few friends who are top-notch government scientists.

They all get a paycheck from Uncle Sam, either directly or indirectly. They all have a specialty besides climate. They don't really know anything more about climate than anyone else. They say I am the smartest person they know. That's hard to swallow, since I know I am so dumb... I feel honored in my dumbness.

Anyway these guys don't even really have a strong opinion one way or the other on climate, and end up asking me what I think. But if they're putting together a proposal for funding and it can mention lowering greenhouse gas emissions or anything of the sort, it gets extra brownie-points for funding and everyone knows it.

Polls of "scientists" showing a "concensus" can include 6th grade science teachers. They are unlikely to have an original thought on the subject, and almost by definition will agree with whatever the politically-correct party line is perceived to be. Hint: things that we know are right are not called "politically correct", they are just called "correct".

Every science show I watch finds some way to tie in the horror story, whether it's a show on planets where they play sad music while explaining why, say, Venus is so hot, or a show on Earth's formation, where any geological layer triggers some discussion of "climate change" with some little implication that CO2 is a leading, rather than a following, indicator for temperature.

You know as well as I do that they purposely leave out the part where Venus is closer to the sun and instead try to blame the 800 degree surface temperatures on higher CO2 content, whereas thinking people ask, as I did in 3rd grade when they first were setting the stage for our future ignorance, "Could the fact that Venus is closer to the sun have anything to do with its higher temperatures?" and secondly "Is it not obvious that the atmospheric content is more an effect of being closer to the sun and therefor being hotter, so everything organic boils off into the atmosphere, than a cause"?

Government scientists end up doing the job they are hired to do which is to act like bureaucrats, running programs, generating reports, and most of all, fitting into the system. They are busy and do not have time to independently analyze, say, climate, from scratch. They instead rely on other bureaucrats to generate valid opinions in their own specialty.

This strategy is logical and mostly effective. It only falters when there is an agenda that demands that the facts come out a certain way. Then the scientists who can generate those "facts" get the funding, and so that is the way science is seen to go, with or without the facts. Science, historically, despite its best efforts, does NOT always get the facts right. Sometimes official science is mistaken for years.

OK now that we've addressed the plethora of personalities that you want to throw at the discussion, I'd like to discuss another fact. Note we've only had to look at one fact so far, the scientific concensus of an 11,000-year length of the average interglacial, which began, according to scientific concensus, 11,000 years ago.

Now we are going to complicate this discussion, that had only 1 fact, with a second fact. Can your mind handle a second fact? OK let's give it a go:

Back when the alarm bells initially started their incessant peal, I first congratulated myself on predicting that the panic over "cooling" had neatly switched over to "warming", exactly on cue, as predicted, without skipping a beat. Bingo.

The first thing I wanted to do was see what their scientific argument was, and find a hole in it. It was far easier than I expected. Their main argument had a hole you could drive a truck through, and, true to form, simply stood reality on its head, substituting a complete lie as its foundational "fact".

Every theory has basic, foundational facts that it starts with, called "assumptions". The global warming nightmare story relied on an unstoppable runaway heating process that, once started, would snowball and build on itself, so that what started as a little melting would quickly turn into a huge amount of warming. It was to be relentless and unstaoppable. It was to get way worse, very fast, then faster and faster after that. Panic-time. That unstoppable runaway scenario is why sea levels were supposed to have risen a few feet by now.

There was not a warning that in centuries we might have sea levels a foot higher. That was not enough to scare people. It was many feet higher, and it was decades, even years, not a century. Certainly by 2020 we could expect Venice to have completely subsided, which it's land is conveniently doing without any actual change in the sea level.

Anyway here's the single fact I examined, that the whole house of cards is built on, and they gloss over the main assumption, which is presented as the opposite of reality. Are you ready for the one fact they have wrong?

That "melting arctic sea ice allows the water below to be warmed by the sun". This one, simple wrong fact that the entire doom & gloom scenario is based on, is 100% wrong! OK let me explain it:

The story goes like this: Increased levels of CO2 will cause some atmospheric warming, which will cause arctic sea ice to melt. Open water in the Arctic Ocean allows sunlight to enter the arctic water, warming it. We'll stop there for now.

The simple question I asked was this:
Does melted sea ice actually allow the water to be warmed by the sun, or is does the sea ice instead act as an insulator, or blanket?

The concept that occurred to me was all I had learned in thermodynamics about "black body radiation", that everything has a temperature and everything emits thermal radiation in a band of photonic frequencies proportional to its temperature.

Then I remembered that the Earth is hotter inside, and that heat always flows from hot to cold. Therefore Earth is a net emitter of heat. I repeat: EARTH IS A NET EMITTER OF HEAT. That is the key fact to keep in mind.

If you could see in the infrared, Earth would be seen as glowing like a star. Giving off radiation. Giving off more than it absorbs (or else it would be cooler in the center). One could call the Earth a very brown mini-dwarf star, powered by its own internal low-grade nuclear furnace. Summary: The Earth is a net emitter of heat.

Proceeding from acknowledging that Earth is a net emitter of heat, NOT a net absorber, the next question is "Where does the Earth absorb the most heat" and "Where does the Earth emit the most heat?", and finally "Where does the balance between absorbing heat and emitting heat consist of more heat emission than absorption? In other words, what part of the Earth experiences a net emission of heat, on balance?

Another way of asking this question, is to first acknowledge that the Earth is always cooling itself, then to ask where that cooling takes place. Guess where? The arctic oceans when the sea ice has melted. Yup, you got it. The place where the propaganda assumes the most heat is absorbed, is actually where the most heat is emitted, on balance! Once again, reality stood on its head!

Once again I turned to 3rd-grade level information to get back to simple facts: I remembered we were taught that ice could act as insulation and could keep people warm! Remembering that Eskimos build igloos to keep warm, not for their air-conditioning value, I asked if the arctic sea ice might also serve as an insulator. Could it be that, like an igloo, sea-ice could act like insulation keeping the warm water below from emitting its warmth into space as black-body radiation? That seemed logical, actually.

Then the question goes back to "where does the Earth emit the most radiation in proportion to how much it absorbs?" The answer? The Arctic oceans of course! The water is comparatively warm, having been warmed by the tropical sun and then flowed to the poles. That is called "Earth's Air Conditioner": warm, tropical sea water flowing to the poles to cool. To cool it must give off heat. It cannot give off heat if it is covered in ice. The ice prevents the water below from cooling.

So I googled "sea ice" and "insulator". I quickly found the actual fact:
Sea ice is indeed an insulator. It has been well-known since day-one that melting sea ice allows the water below to cool. Arctic waters even visibly give off "steam" when the sea-ice melts and the warm waters evaporate. That warms the air above, which radiates that warmth out into space, cooling the Earth.

When the water has sufficiently cooled, the sea ice reforms. It is a self-stabilizing cycle, not a potential runaway condition. Why? Because the more ice melts, the more the water cools, and the faster the ice can reform. The cycle lasts 30 years. It's variously called "decadal oscillation" or "multi-decadal oscillation".

A little logic confirms this: If the Earth is a net emitter of heat, and most solar absorption takes place near the equator, the poles must, by definition, be strong net emitters of heat. And the strongest net emission must be from the comparatively warm open arctic waters, imported from equatorial regions.

The sun impinges on the arctic seas at a very flat angle that encourages most photons to bounce off the water as a reflection anyway. Think of the glare you see at the poles when you look at a picture of Earth taken from space. Again, the poles are where the Earth is a net emitter of heat.

The only thing that can STOP that net emission is a nice, insulating blanket of sea ice, preferably covered with a further insulating blanket of snow, that virtually guarantees that almost zero net emission of heat can occur, inevitably leading to accumulated warming of the water below, eventually causing the temporary melting of that ice, which then allows the water to cool, starting the whole cycle over.

So there you have it: The concept that melted sea ice presents a danger of "runaway warming" due to increased absorption of heat, from solar radiation, by the arctic oceans, is the exact opposite of reality! The well-known decadal oscillation proves this. The facts have been presented as opposite to the reality. The entire foundation of the scare-story: runaway global warming due to solar absorption by open arctic oceans" is the exact opposite of the truth.

The truth is that if arctic oceans melt, that allows the water below to cool since the sun just bounces off while the water emits black-body radiation, that it could not, if covered with ice.

So there is fact number two. Melted sea ice allows the water below to cool, not get hotter. Has your poor, overburdened and bullshit-assaulted mind been able to understand this one, single, simple fact? Or has the constant assault of misinformation rendered your surviving brain cells as useless jelly by now, too battered consider or to take in even a single fact?

What do you think about what the well-known multidecadal oscillation means for the basis of the scare story, that open arctic waters are net absorbers of heat, rather than net emitters? Which do you say is correct?

This is what I mean when I say, the facts have long ago been abandoned in favor of injecting a lot of confusion based on personalities. Science is not about taking polls of how many elementary-school science teachers agree with some theory and citing that as evidence. Science is about constructing logical trains of events that provide solid and logical explanations for phenomenae that we need to understand.

The minute you start reading about a "concensus" of "opinion" rather than a logical presentation of scientific facts or a legitimate examination of a proposed series of events, you know you are no longer dealing with science, but instead "science" with finger-quotes, and finger-pointing. Real science sticks with facts and does not need to cite how many people agree, whatever their credentials or lack thereof.

Joe Friday said it best:
"Just the facts Ma'm."

:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6294 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Public access to DOE funded research papers.
This bill would make most research papers funded via federal dollars free. This looks like just what Dave Santos wants in regards to Makani's federal funding.

http://www.taxpayeraccess.org/issues/frpaa/index.shtml

Right now there is a culture where PDF versions of research cost just as much as printed versions. I would like to see that practice changed. PDF versions should be about $3 or $4 bucks. Not the $35 that you commonly see. This bill would make them free.

Brian
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6295 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
Hey, The search actually worked. I was able to find many references to Makani and camber. They have 2 things in common. They assume that the Makani wing has marginal performance and that it has a high wing loading.

Both of these are not necessarily true. Sure, compared to a cloth kite the wing loading is high. But compared to a Cessna it's actually quite low.

Firstly power to weight Motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio

ElectriFly GPMG4805 Brushless DC motor is 5.68 kW/kg
GE CF6-80C2 Brayton high-bypass turbofan jet engine from a 747 is only 5.67 kW/kg

When you take that to the whole aircraft

Boeing 747 10kg/kw
Makani M30 2.66kg/kw

(Assuming 80kg and symmetrical power out to in.)


Electric powered aircraft typically perform terrible because they have to carry their batteries.

Second Wing loading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading

Cessna 152 51 kg/m2
Makani M30 I guess at 10 kg/m2

(Assuming 80kg and 8m2)

Brian



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6296 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmiss

Doug,
 
By your own logic a rotating serpentine tower like the SuperTurbine clearly departs from "3000 years of (windpower) experience", so either your logic or your concept is wrong.
 
I have always loved rotating turbines and have made many AWES experiments based on them. The reciprocating kite systems are cool too! I say try 'em all, even the perennially "two-years-off" SuperTurbine; they all teach fine lessons. You never did explain why  Dutch and Cretan style windmills with four or more blades evolved and persist for centuries, useful and much loved. Of course the US West is peppered with thousands of many-bladed turbines, some almost a century old, but also still in production. Good luck convincing mechanical engineers that reciprocating engines have no place, ever, in windpower.  How would you do pile-driving? (You probably couldn't.)
 
When it comes to being a newbie, you are the one with no direct Dutch windmill experience (awesome!). We had Jacobs Turbines and aeromotors on family ranchland growing up in Texas, well predating your own experience. I was developing and flying turbines suspended from tethers in Austin schools in the mid-eighties. You always dump on "newbies", attacking children online even (!), but many on this Forum have turbine experience beyond yours (like ChrisC).
 
I wish you would just respect the comparative testing of all ideas, rather than blow smoke; like scoffing more than once in a single post at party-favors as an illustration of an actuation method. You seem unable to say eactly why this mechanism could never furl an inflated wing, or why fabric wings work so well for wing sports. Its such a narrow view you take. I like hard wings too, but would hate to be limited to them.
 
Given your heroic boasts, why aren't you sharing any new working AWES with us? Being an aviation newbie is a probable answer, but thats OK, study hard and good luck,
 
 
daveS
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6297 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
I agree with most of what your saying in this post. Many of the ideas that float across this list are absurd at best. But I wanted to point out a few issues.

This is what a common windmill looked like 120 years ago.
http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/Index.asp
Many of the proposals here seem to have that iconic image in their minds. A proper wind turbine has no trouble trouncing the performance of the aeromotor.
So I would suggest scaling back from 3000 to 300 years.

You said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_vI5UYJuLk

This is a pulsating, low L/D monstrosity that was built and is generating watts.They started out with their Laddermill concept and moved on. There is hope for everyone. More for some than others. :)

Brian

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6298 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
Brian,
 
Its uncertain if you are using a maximum load case to calculate maximum wing loading, which is what was being discussed (critical reliability). For the Makani Wing-7 this would be pulling about 10g or more at close to 200mph, in a sudden gust. Calculate that.
 
The marginal performance fear is based on scaled-up versions inexorably encountering scaling law limits. Small versions will in fact fly rather well. Electric RC airplanes do rival feuled versions in performance, but with a lower flight duration as the trade. This has been true for a couple of decades, for small model aircraft, and will hold roughly true as somewhat larger types emerge with still marginal flight durations.
 
I forgot to address a key misconception you raised, than one can simply design a hot aircraft to "turn faster" to avoid crashing. Every part of the aircraft design is affected (like avionics, bearings and generator windings), and the structural and actuation loads at some point grow beyond what is good perfromance for "most proabable wind" service.
 
daveS
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6299 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Back to Kites, Please //Re: [AWES] Re: Climate Impacts Day 05/05/2
Dan'l,
 
As you asked, i contemplated the video, as someone who sees The Crisis, who gave up car and house ownership to buy urban forest land for conservation, became a mutant-bike nomad, and now work on kite energy in a very focused way. I even found the World Kite Museum by wandering the NW on a bike with an early AWES. That's me.
 
So i found the Savage Revival video disturbing on many levels. A healthier reaction to the Global Crisis is sadness and sharing, not anger and burning stuff. These are kid videos, their forebrains not quite ready to not get angry, its not their fault. I particularly object to the societal myth of redemptive violence that these kids have swallowed whole. Nor is destructive resistance really the strongest reaction to The Crisis, as they imagine, compared to love and highly creative work. These "savages" are primitive modern activists, characters out of Turgenev, making long boring videos of their nihilistic angst and fatalism about violence. Their skills are weak, their videographic art is banal (a few of the mash-up clips are powerful).  Greater art will have more impact, if only these kid learn how. Meanwhile their F**K IT mantra stands as a self-inflicted critique.
 
That said, we like these kids anyway, and have faith most will grow further, and maybe even discover kites! The real hip scene is white-bloc  Fluffy Activism, pacifist vegetarian evasionist circuses, mutant-bike migrations, scrap-raft sea collectives, food-garden puppetismo, and now the kites! There were No Kites in this video, it was a distraction, i could not even finish it. Posts to the AWES Forum are supposed to be on topic. This sort of content has its own places, lets stick to kite knowledge to contront the danger-
 
"As the Danger grows, so grows the Saving Power",
 
daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6300 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 18:16 +0000, blturner3 wrote:
Some outrunner machines (motor/generators) can do better than that. The
thing to remember is that they only achieve these power to weight ratios
at speeds in the order of 15 000 rpm. Ordinary bearings do not last long
at those speeds and bearing replacements are considered routine in the
RC community. Modern bearings that can take those speeds without rapid
wear struggle in other respects like cost and load bearing ability.


You seem to be ignoring tether tension in that estimate. To generate
power the Makani wing needs to work against tether tension to drive the
turbines. For VTOL and docking the propellers take the load. However, I
think we agree that the Makani machines will have plenty of power in
reserve to handle turbulent landing conditions. I think the hazards Dave
S. is going on about will only become a problem if they try to build
huge wings.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6301 From: blturner3 Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
I'm home sick today. That why so many posts. But I fear their quality suffers.

I see wing loading problems during slow flight regimes. At high speed most aircraft can rip their wings off with little control input. Hitting a gust at 200 mph is not as bad as a low speed kite hitting that same gust. The wing will not suddenly accelerate. It's mass keeps that from happening. The wing loading goes up and takes up the slack of the catenary. You might need a over tension release at the winch. The wing can adjust it's angle of attack very fast. It can even be made self correcting by attaching the tether ahead of the center of lift. It will also pass through smaller eddies fast enough to minimize their affect. Like how jumbo jets can fly through clouds with just a few bumps most the time.
If you count line tension as wing loading then the wing loading is attached to power output so all 1mW kites would have a relatively high wing loading.

The cubic scaling law affects everything. Designs find a best size as time goes on. The affect can be seen in many things we already have. Like current wind turbines. Tractor trailers, shipping containers. etc. etc. You seem to think that a cloth kite does not have this problem. That is an illusion at the small scales kites are typically found in. At some point you reach the tensile strength limit of the fabric and have to go thicker. From that point on the thickness tracks with the scale just like everything else. But tensile structures do have a significant advantage here. Because compressions strength of lightweight materials are much lower than tensile strength. Among other issues.

I think your suggesting that they will hit their scaling limit before the design is profitable. I don't think so. But that's more than I can bite off at this moment.

Yes, making something turn faster is a de-optimization from best performance. But that's one of the trade offs for safety. Again, not specific to Makani.

I also figured out how to stop the dynamic plummet mode. Banking the wing progressively with airspeed makes the turn happen with all controls at near neutral leaving plenty of control authority for other issues. The wing is stressed for that 10Gs you speak of and the Gs of the circle are small by comparison. Can I claim CoolIP on that one. ;) There is probably prior art.

BTW electrics beat fueled R/C aircraft in performance at this point and batteries are still improving. The Makani wing needs no batteries. I think I already said that.

Here is one way to fix the whole smack into the perch problem at sea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjJv16HX0EU
Just land on the water and reel in to the platform.

Brian

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6302 From: dave santos Date: 5/14/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
Brian,
 
The Dynamic Plummet idea applies to a surface gust covering roughly the lower half of the loop, and there is time for ANY scale of low altitude kiteplane to be accelerated into the ground, as the larger plane has a larger loop to cover over more time. You gotta see those DS videos to well over 400mph to get scared enough. 
 
On another note, you seem to not allow for risk of violent stalling of the Makani AWT skinny wing, which is an inherent crash danger almost too obvious to have to remind of. Never forget Kitelab simply holds hot wings up with an upper tether to a pilot-lift layer, as an in-hand solution.
 
Yanking a massy conductive catenary in puffs to absorb surge can invlove some very destructive harmonic shocks at either end, this is mostly untested but predicted dynamics requiring lots of original testing, but daveL's simulations should already show these rogue harmonics in extreme conditions. Special dampers will probably be needed.
 
Robert,
 
Even small, these 2012 kiteplanes are toast in a matter of days or weeks, with the critical path of robust flight automation only slowly reaching pay-back survival, a matter of a decade or two, unless perhaps a Manhattan project emerges,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6303 From: roderickjosephread Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmissions
A standard tower turbine pushes against the wind AND the lift it's "lift foil" blades generate.

Kites have "Lift foils" too... The resultant lift force is still in the downwind and forward directions.
In my design, this downwind force helps to keep vital tension in the widely spread, rotating tethers.
This way the wind can do the work of the tower, The wind takes your machine up high... where more wind is....

Applying speedy kites to my ring design is a laudable goal. Yes a faster sleeker pointy blade kite is desirable. Speed is essential for power.
Do you think I should have stiff sleek blades around the ring? maybe.
At a certain large ring diameter, you would need more than three blades, as the kites won't go fast enough to efficiently sweep the area required.
Kite performance data mapped onto inflated ring characteristics need modelled still.
Could it even reach that size? probably?... We have no empirical values. Ergo I'm going to experiment.

Since I am flying this project solo and distracted, I am focusing on creating something more workable (baggy, stable and with solidity) for my open source prototype.
Refining... That phase will come.

You can't compare Ground based turbines with Airborne wind generators yet... They point the wrong way for a start.

You can't believe everything you read... like howstuffworks.com Unlike the old-fashioned Dutch windmill design, which relied mostly on the wind's force to push the blades into motion, modern turbines use more sophisticated aerodynamic principles to capture the wind's energy most effectively.

More sophisticated... well how grand for that author to have such perspective and understanding.

The change is on it's way. Or is it that other way round?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6304 From: Doug Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Hill saddle
amateur

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6305 From: Doug Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Transmiss
Dave S.:
The difference is whether your designs go back and repeat past mistakes, or whether they sue what has been learned to move to the next step. Sorry but most everything you write just serves to peel another layer off your onion of ignorance.

Rather than me explaining why farm water-pumping windmills use 22 blades, you can look it up. Similarly with the 4-bladed Dutch turbines. The answers are simple for wind energy people, but require a foundational knowledge of just a couple of slightly technical concepts, extremely well-known and not open to question in wind energy.

The fact that the ideas that appear here do not take such knowledge of wind energy into account is something that you have shown many many times you cannot understand due to your refusal to get up to speed in the art. That's OK, one can't "push a rope". One must be curious enough to learn. But ignorance is ignorance and at some point there's nothing else one can say.

If you refuse to learn the language, the terms, the well-known math, which is easy enough or I would not be able to understand it, you really cannot have the conversation. You think you are having a conversation about AWE, but really you're not. You're not having a discussion about wind energy at all. You're just having a fantasy that you know even anything about wind energy. It's amazing to see you go on for years spewing complete ignorance of wind energy as the foundation for more advanced solutions than currently exist in the present multi-billion-dollar wind energy industry that employes at least hundreds of thousands of people around the world, powering millions of homes.

Good newbie questions about the number of blades for turbines with various uses. We answer those questions all the time. Helps beginners start to understand the basics. Dave S. if you knew anything about wind energy you would not be asking why these various wind turbines have the number of blades they do - you would already know, and be explaining it to others. There it is right there: proof you don;t understand the basics. Please don;t drag me through any more of this agonizing slog through your mental quicksand. Hint: the number of blades is defined by the use a turbine is designed for.

"I refuse to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed man."
Have fun flying a kite with a party-noisemaker on it.
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6306 From: blturner3 Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
The sweet spot for electric motors is not so much an RPM as an inches per second. The speed that the magnetic fields pass each other. As you scale up the motor becomes a ring of magnets with a ring of coils and a hollow center. You can actually see that in some of Makani's photos. That slows the speed of the bearings to a more manageable RPM. As a side note. Bushings although less efficient are better at handling high loads and high RPMs. If reliability became a concern you could use backup bushings.

Yes, I was not counting line tension. That did not make sense to me. Control authority is more about inertia than tension.

Dave S. mentioned high speed stall as a possible problem. Avoiding a stall is difficult for humans because we can't read our instruments and calculate rapidly in our head. We also have slow reaction times. An autopilot has none of those problems. They know their flight envelope because it was told to them once. They can see a stall condition coming and compensate for it. Now the open question is how do they find all the limits of the flight envelope without crashing a couple of wings?

As to the 400 mph downburst. That is a rare enough occurrence that you don't even bother to prepare for it. It would destroy just about any kite and most structures. In hurricane areas the building codes are quite strict because it works. In tornado country they aren't because it's rare that a house gets hit by a tornado and the structure needed to deal with them is so extreme codes would be of little help. The smart ones in tornado country have a small spot in their house that is tornado proof and the rest is just let go.

Also even when a Makani wing is stalled the props still work and provide control. It does this every time it transitions from crosswind flight to hover. I see no reason to think that would not be true at high speeds as well. You could in some rare instance stall the props and the wing at the same time. But the props can recover quickly.

Brian

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6307 From: dave santos Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Rebutting the Newbie //Re: [AWES] Re: Double-Driving AWES Trans
Doug,
 
I have in fact properly explained why a variety of blade numbers is found in turbines of all kinds, and how this makes sense, so you must have missed these points. The considerations involved Re, cut-in, hysteresis, form-factors, materials, handling, scaling, speed-limiting, cultural-preferences, and so on. Point us to any better treatment of the subject.
 
What you mostly did was complain about me personally, which is off-topic fluff. You did not actually defend your fixed tunnel-vision, by well explaining the common real-world exceptions raised against your prejudices. You need to be able to explain why, for example, NASA aeronautical scientists, propose many-bladed propellers for future transports, or why birds like eagles have many bladed wingtips, rather than albatross wings. You never allow that a flying rotorcraft, like giant helicopters, need many blades for reasons remote and mysterious to your narrow subculture of backyard turbines on poles.
 
Also, PLEASE do not waste everyone's time with posts such as a single word of insult (reply to Roddy's questions). If you have to vent, post such personal notes only to the victim. No one is more consistently and prolifically insulting or abusive on this Forum than you. In this, you got me beat :) Everyone in AWE makes a contribution as best they can, even as we disagree on many particulars. You should be back on moderation if you continue so,
 
Breathe,
 
daveS
 
PS Roddy is quitte correct in supposing many-blade rotor options have a place in aerospace engineering fields like AWE. Despite his later start, his open mind should soon eclipse yours in AWE contributions.
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6308 From: dave santos Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
Brain,
 
The misunderstandings are proliferating. The 400mph number is the aircraft DS velocity, not the windspeed which is only about 1/10 velocity. By looking at the videos, as suggested, you will understand. We are talking about the fairly common invertings of this not-so-extreme wind gradient.
 
Its absurd to imagine current autonomous stall prevention solves the aeroabtic violent stall issue. We are talking about complex chaotic interactions where control authority is overwhelmed no matter who or what is flying. Where is any such system perfected to prevent stall in aerobatic flight? Lets look closely at that example, to compare with your optimistic expectations.
 
Prop stall is also not an issue to just be optimistic about, but must be settled by testing. You should presume it could be a failure mode until the validation is done. In the worst case of settling-under-power a stalled rotor is hardly more effective than a drogue of the same disc size. Consider especially the case of losing some rotor units due to burn-out, and how that affects the others (which are already very hot)
 
Regarding bearings, its the programmed maintenance to keep them from failing that is the driving economic constraint. Its not enough to say how to make them not fail, you must pay the cost of that preventative offshore in super-duty service.
 
You (and Makani principals) have not yet well developed the "professional pessimism" required by critical-reliability aviation design and operations; the habit of presuming the worst case, and  fundamentally acting on it, rather than skipping along on rosy hopes, an "Icarus Syndrome",
 
daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6309 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Airfoil "Curvature Control" as a Makani Design Driver
Brian,

You are quite correct and I have been investigating why pancake machines
are not more popular. Old computer floppy disc drives from the 80's used
them so the idea is well established. One of the problems may be air
friction (windage) in the narrow gap needed between stator and rotor
required to maintain magnetic field strength. Recently I downloaded a
thesis on the subject and on my do list is creating a spreadsheet to
quantify windage. Quantifying things is critical to engineering success.

For the RC motors to get 7kW/kg I calculated that they use 50m/s gap
velocity. Going much above 70m/s starts causing noise problems unless
the machine is run in a vacuum.

If windage is not a limitation then why are Makani not putting their
magnets in a ring on the outer circumference of their propellers?

The fact remains that bearing wear is an issue for the RC community so
attention needs to be paid to it.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6310 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Fwd: OPTEC to come: WG1 / HIGHWIND SAB / Stevin lecture on weather f
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: moritz.diehl
Date: Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:08 AM
Subject: OPTEC to come: WG1 / HIGHWIND SAB / Stevin lecture on weather forecasting
To: editor@energykitesystems.net


2) May 23 & 24, 2012:
Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) Workshop and HIGHWIND SAB. 
Talks by nine external AWE companies and research groups from the US and EU, and by ten KU Leuven researchers.
Participation is on invitation only, 
but OPTEC members and friends can contact kurt.geebelen@mech.kuleuven.be to
subscribe.


For more infos, see http://www.kuleuven.be/optec/event

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6311 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/15/2012
Subject: Re: Fwd: OPTEC to come: WG1 / HIGHWIND SAB / Stevin lecture on weath
Archiving clip of event: 

Airborne Wind Energy Workshop and HIGHWIND Scientific Advisory Board Meeting

Wed 23 May 10:00 - Thu 24 May 2012 18:00,  Leuven

Airborne Wind Energy Workshop and
HIGHWIND Scientific Advisory Board Meeting

This two day public event has as its aim to present
the current state of the
 art on Airborne Wind Energy Research,
 both in and outside of Leuven.

It is combined with the yearly Scientific Advisory Board (SAB) Meeting of
the ERC Project HIGHWIND.

More information about the event can be found here:
http://homes.esat.kuleuven.be/~highwind/?p=1053