Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.               AWES484to545
Page 10 of 552.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 484 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 485 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 486 From: dougselsam Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 487 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 488 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 489 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 490 From: harry valentine Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon - Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 491 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 492 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 493 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 494 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 495 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: AWE Turbine Blade Camber or Rotation Reversing Note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 496 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/29/2009
Subject: Future of kite energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 501 From: harry valentine Date: 10/30/2009
Subject: Re: Future of kite energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 506 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Future of kite energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 508 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Selam's Missing Insights

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 510 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Sheathing swords and (em)powering humanity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 511 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sheathing swords and (em)powering humanity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 512 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 513 From: dave santos Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning the Well- Vaporware

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 514 From: harry valentine Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 515 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Vaporware

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 516 From: Alexander V. Munoz Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 517 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 518 From: Allister Furey Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware [2 Attachments]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 519 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 520 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 521 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Another AWE article in popular press

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 522 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware - roof top turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 523 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Moving Forward

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 524 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 525 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 526 From: Grant Calverley Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Selam's Missing Insights

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 527 From: Dean Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Moving Forward

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 528 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 529 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 530 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 532 From: harry valentine Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 534 From: harry valentine Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Piezoelectric material and kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 535 From: dougselsam Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Good 1st Conference: Feedback

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 536 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Slides for 1st conference

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 537 From: harry valentine Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: Good 1st Conference: Feedback - Selsam - Terrain enhanced rotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 538 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 539 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 540 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 541 From: dave santos Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Hypersonic HAPAS, L1 KiteShades, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 542 From: coist1_187 Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 543 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: Hypersonic HAPAS, L1 KiteShades, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 544 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 545 From: harry valentine Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 484 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference
 
Cristina Archer has shown there is a large wind resource on earth, but will there be cooperative wind and cooperative community lift at Orville?
 
 
liftercoop.jpg

Selsam is asking for cooperative combine at Chico conference:  Lifter kites assisting the top end of multi-rotor flex-shaft torque electricity generating system.   Will there be any lifter-kite cooperative offers?   Will there be enough wind?  A train of lifter kites might do the trick.     
See some new artist drawings and other actual hardware:
 
    Selsam

Lifter kites invited for conference cooperative?  Low-wind site may add to the challenge.
http://www.gombergkites.com/faq/437-1.JPG
http://kap-man.de/032.jpg
http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bbps-kite%20for%20mcclures.jpg
April 1977  Selsam conceived  and ...notarized claim in 1979 http://www.speakerfactory.net/kitewindmill1sm.jpg  where lifter kite supported upper end of double fanBelt laddermill arrangement.
http://www.sfcody.org.uk/imgs/kites_Johns-drawing.jpg
http://www.treehugger.com/SkySails.jpg
http://www.windpowersports.com/kites/single/images/sled/sled-kite.jpg

Contact Doug Selsam if large lifters or train of lifters might arrive.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 485 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference
Most likely there will be wind, it just won't be near the ground, where it appears the propellers are located.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 486 From: dougselsam Date: 10/26/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference
Thanks Darin:
Glad to hear the Jet Stream and high altitude trade winds *may* be available for the conference.
OK then I am curious: Can we look forward to a demo that will take advantage of the high altitude wind resource you refer to? Wondering who is bringing what hardware to the event to show/demo?
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 487 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Demo at HAWP Conference
Doug,
 
On average the high altitude wind resource is far more available than the bleak reality you describe for your ground-based "superturbine". Of course no one should fly HAWP at the conference as you suggest without an FAA waiver. Surely there will be fine exhibits, videos, etc., but i think no one mentioned HAWP demos as a conference event before your late post. KiteLab Group would certainly love to do a fly-in or fly-off format with or against other real AWE demos.
 
How exactly is your multi-subturbine HAWP? After all its heavier & has higher induced drag than an equivalent power-rated conventional turbine, never-mind your greater cost, hazards, & unreliability. Why don't you just attend & learn? Leave pop sci marketing & garbage bag LTA at home & come for good science & engineering. A reasonable fear is you will grandstand a troubled non-HAWP device while continuing your deeply misinformed attacks on the very idea of HAWP.
 
daveS
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 488 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon
How about hanging the multi-rotor below a H2-filled kytoon? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domina_Jalbert  Have it positioned lengthwise, & on an incline to catch the "fresh wind".  

It will always point into the wind that way, and eliminate the need for the yawing rudder fin. Instead of one big generator, that's located in the middle, now there's smaller forward and aft generators, at the ends of the multi-rotor spinning axle.   
Then, get a conductive tether/winch system from http://www.magenn.com/.  

On the ground, a reversible fuel cell splits the water, and stores the H2.

Stored H2 is like having a battery.  It only takes 1.3vdc to start splitting water, whereas it takes 13.6vdc to start charging a 12volt battery.  This would make it more efficient in lower wind speeds.  ~Darin



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 489 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon
Darin,
 
It depends on the multi-rotor. If it requires a long torsion tube it ends up being heavier than a single rotor for equivalent power at all scales. Its the horns of an unwinnable engineering dilemma, wind shadowing v. off axis non-cyclic pitch drag, but the induced drag must inevitably be greater than a competing mono-turbine properly oriented in clean air. An AWE mono-turbine can be even as light as a ribbon rotor (a bit of stiffness to hold blades apart goes a long way, as centifugal force tensions the rotor) & scale greatly. A torsion tube scales very poorly.
 
One form of multi-rotor will scale- stringing rotors like beads along a cable & perhaps take power off to the side via bull-wheel or contra-rotate around a flygen.
A Kytoon is problematic. Helium is a terrible capital & maintenance burden. Most people miss that helium in calm is not doing much & in wind is superfluous or destabilizing. Ultralight mono-turbines under non-helium pilot-lifters are clear performance/capital cost winners if self relaunch is a feature. Many techniques exist for self relaunch. KiteLab has shown that a single party balloon with a skyhook single-spar wing can trigger pilot/lifter relaunch after calm, but even this use of He is a bother compared to alternatives presented on this list.
 
daveS
 
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 490 From: harry valentine Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon - Storage
 It is possible to store wind-electrical energy underground, see http://www.riverbankpower.com/page.asp?id=6
 
Harry
 

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: darin_selby@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:15:00 +0000
Subject: RE: [AirborneWindEnergy] Multi-rotor held aloft with a Kytoon

 
How about hanging the multi-rotor below a H2-filled kytoon? http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Domina_Jalbert  Have it positioned lengthwise, & on an incline to catch the "fresh wind".  

It will always point into the wind that way, and eliminate the need for the yawing rudder fin. Instead of one big generator, that's located in the middle, now there's smaller forward and aft generators, at the ends of the multi-rotor spinning axle.   
Then, get a conductive tether/winch system from http://www.magenn. com/.  

On the ground, a reversible fuel cell splits the water, and stores the H2.

Stored H2 is like having a battery.  It only takes 1.3vdc to start splitting water, whereas it takes 13.6vdc to start charging a 12volt battery.  This would make it more efficient in lower wind speeds.  ~Darin






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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 491 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing
AWE needs new ultrallight turbines suited to scaling-up & flying. Camber Reversing blades for motoring & generating AWE modes are a key performance requirement to cover in a future post. Ribbon & floppy rotors as described below reverse camber easily (think sailboat sail).
 
Forwarded to List- General Interest


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 492 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing

Ribbon rotors come in more than one variety.

Send your online note now on this topic

So far:

  •  
  • Roeseler, W. G., The Effect of Ribbon Rotor Geometry on Blade Response and Stability," Masters thesis, Massachusetts Institute of
    Technology, May 1966.   See bottom of that page for link to his paper.
  • Works of William Gene Roeseler, Jayant Sirohi, Anubhav Datta, and others. See bibliography in this paper.  W.G. Roeseler
  • Ribbon rotor where rotation disk faces ambient wind. Rotation is accessed by spinning tip kites.
  • Ribbon rotor driven by a hub which hub is driven by a kite-derived energy. Rotor-tip mass and some strategic stiffness enhances the ribbon's performance.
  • Rotating ribbon bow kite.     This is a Magnus-effect kite. Some mining of energy can occur for secondary work  SkyBow
  • Ribbon mono-turbines of many scales.   KiteLab Group.  Oscillations in conjunction with lifter kites can form a strong scalable AWECS.
  • Vibrating ribbon direct generator.
  • Long playSail ribbon
In response to the suggestion, we just opened a folder dedicated to ribbon rotors in AWECS.  All are invited to make the files robust in images, notes, links, applicaitons, etc.
 
Let the ribbon rotate, flap, reverse, dance, jiggle, flag, .., be strategically stiffened, be held in various ways ...
 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 493 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing
Rigid aircraft wings generally work reasonably well upside down.  For occasional use of a turbine for propulsion, I'd just accept the drop in efficiency.  One data point from memory had it at only 15%.

Bob Stuart




On 28-Oct-09, at 11:07 AM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 494 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Ribbon Rotors, Floppy Rotors, Camber Reversing
BobS,
 
Aerobatic foils are often symmetrical (zero camber) & the ~15% efficiency hit sounds about right for either side of zero AoA, but sport aerobatics is not very efficiency driven. In marginal conditions a high-lift high-camber foil (ie. flaps) can make the difference between crashing or not.
 
Efficiency must not be thown away without a fight. The fish fins i study reverse camber by simple mechanisms. Hummingbird & insect wings are also good at reversing camber. AWE turbine designs have already adopted variable pitch as a necessary expedient & efficiency booster. Reversible camber can be integrated with variable pitch for even more gain. One way is to simply "tack" the foil LE across the flow & reverse rotation between motor & gen mode.
 
Sky WindPower, Makani Power, Joby Energy, etc. all face these turbine trade-off issues, as they intend to motor up to altitude & loiter in calm. The HAWP winners will tend to be the most efficient in every key economic, physics, & engineering dimension.
 
daveS
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 495 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: AWE Turbine Blade Camber or Rotation Reversing Note
 
Joby & Makani's flygen concepts require camber or rotation reversing for high turbine efficiency as they do both thrust & power extraction without reversing airflow.
 
Sky WindPower's concept won't have to camber or rotation reverse, merely change from generation to motoring blade pitch setting (from neg to pos pitch), as its turbines reverse airflow.
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 496 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/29/2009
Subject: Future of kite energy
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 501 From: harry valentine Date: 10/30/2009
Subject: Re: Future of kite energy
Point well taken. People who invested in roof-top urban wind technology are now discovering the drawbacks of the technology . . . noise, vibration and even damage to buildings. However, that may prove to be one of the learning experiences in wind energy development.
 
 
Harry
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
CC: santos137@yahoo.com; joefaust333@gmail.com; daveculp@gmail.com
From: hardensoftintl@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:53:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Fw: [AirborneWindEnergy] Future of kite energy

 
Anyone getting funded from any source and at any level at this rather early stage of the field's development needs to be extra-diligent with due sense of responsibility as any failure is more likely to harm the entire AWE body more than we may anticipate. 'Only fools rush in where angels fear to tread' is still a relevant English adage. Let's not scare away much needed 'angels' through avoidable miscalculations. Correcting the errors to the knowledge of the earlier supporters might not be easy after they have left disappointed.
I am happy at such a virile forum of professional colleagues as this and I think all will do well to take every bit of criticism as being well-intentioned.
Best of lifts.
JohnO





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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 506 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Future of kite energy
Thanks, Harry.
I like to retain this topic as our relevant focus.
Regards.
JohnO


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 508 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Selam's Missing Insights
Wish I could attend your talk in Reno. Hope you'll bring a version to Chico?

Dave


On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Grant Calverley
<grant@sanjuantimberframes.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 510 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Sheathing swords and (em)powering humanity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 511 From: Dave Culp Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sheathing swords and (em)powering humanity
Oops. a correction. An order of magnitude correction (DaveS will like that!) San Luis reservoir doesn't move 1300 cu ft/second of water 300'. EACH of 8 units moves that quantity, concurrently. That's something more than 10,000 cubic ft/second up 300 vertical feet, total capacity. They can absorb whatever wind-generated pumping capacity we could ever deliver, without batting an eye.

Default Dave

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 512 From: Darin Selby Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank
Aquabank sounds way huge and centralized.  Plus, due to evaporation, precious water will constantly need to be added.  Also, lots of energy line loss from the generating station to the final light switch being turned on is between 30-40%.  

My vote is for empowering the individual to be able to generate all the electricity that they need for their own household, or for a neighborhood that works together on a localized solar/wind generation station.  

The main reason why each household needs so much electricity these days, is because the appliances that are being used is still in the energy-sucking 20th century phase of development.  

Investing in the installation of LED lighting, solar panels, passive solar water heating, houses designed with Trombe walls, skylights, fiber optic lighting, using evaporative refrigerators in arid climates, and windpower in its myriad forms, can eventiually free the family unit from having to participate in the monthly payment syndrome.  ~Darin 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 513 From: dave santos Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning the Well- Vaporware
Doug,
 
Please do the homework before presenting at HAWP09. Here is a short list of AWE experimenters who have successfully generated electricity with pioneering prototypes-
 
UDelft
Princeton
Worchester Polytechnic
KiteGen
Makani
KiteLab
Sky WindPower
SkySails (probable)
WindLift (probable)
Magenn
 
There are probably more to add.
 
Several players do direct work like pumping water & lifting-
 
WindLift
KiteLab
KiteShip
 
Several have done large-scale industrial traction-
 
KiteShip
SkySails
 
There are at least 3 products on the market from the lists above. Additionally there are many kite-based products for fishing, kitesailing, bird-scaring, etc.
 
Satisfied?
 
Please do not judge our infant technology by the standards of more mature tech like modern large-scale ground turbines. Kite Scientist Ben Franklin asked of folks who reason like you- "What good is a newborn baby?"
 
Try to avoid misinformation & wait a bit, as was requested of you, for JoeF's master list.  You might easily repeat our results or just open your eyes.
 
daveS
 
PS You never bothered to reply to the detailed critique of your device physics, economics, & other claims.
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 514 From: harry valentine Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank
Banks of storage batteries involve high costs. The Redox-flow batteries are probably the optimal design at present for stationary storage.
 
Energy storage is one of these technologies that benefits from economy of scale.
 
Using AWE technology in developing countries has merit.
 
 
Harry
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 515 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Vaporware
This is a repost of Doug Selsam's welcome analysis.
Moderator.
=================================

Vaporware
After several years on the Yahoo small wind group, we have definitely seen a
pattern of similar backbiting, and it has 1 main symptom: people talking about
machines that either don't exist, or have never had a generator connected.
We started referring to it as "vaporware" after awhile, because unlike hardware,
or software, it exists only in the imagination.
Sooner or later, all the talk turns into nothing but vapor - the whole
discussion evaporates into nothingness. It has happened so many times - always
with rooftop-mounted vertical-axios drag machines that are touted as zeroing out
the energy needs of the house.

One might call it lies, misinformation, or well-intentioned innocent projection
ahead of the fact. But saying things that are not true is what it amounts to.

The pattern is definitely well-worn (let's call it a severely rutted road), and
usually starts with someone promoting a drag-based turbine that either has never
been built (renderings), or if built, is really only partially built, but
without a generator.

The output is already "known" without measuring it. It always exceeds any
reasonable or even physically-possible level, certainly blowing "those silly
propellers" right out of the water.

The claims are always completely over the top and with time you watch the lies
unravel, as their claims are slowly revealed to be nonsense and their
projections begin to reveal that they only looked at 1 set of facts and don't
even know most of then facts.

They will start out with one claim, and as it begins to look increasingly
ridiculous they slowly back off, as it becomes obvious that they will never be
able to do anything near what they say. At first they will power you entire
home with a small module, and replace every turbine out there, and they are even
selling "territories" etc.

Seasoned professionals in the wind energy industry always keep asking the same
question: What is the power curve?
The answer is always the same: We expect to have the data to verify our
projections soon - you'll see!

Two facts never change:
1) The promised power output data is never produced;
2) The less data is involved, the more emotions get heated arguing over things
that the people doing the arguing don;t even know what they are talking about.

The result is a complete fantasy world of armchair inventors where nobody ever
has to produce their machine. All they have to do is make astronomical claims
and call each other names, discussing mostly machines that could generate only
paltry amounts of power at best and would be blown apart in the first decent
storm.

After a while the list started only allowing discussion of real systems that
actually exist, or at least questions about real installations with real
numbers.

The promoters of all the machines in question, to this day, have never produced
a power curve and are still at it, having raised millions of dollars for flawed
theories, with their investors being unsophisticated or simply naive with good
will and incomplete due diligence.

If you want to avoid the backbiting, I think you'll find that if you discuss
real machines and the data so far, you are restricted to discussing facts, and
the emotions begin to be less important than the facts.

Anyone who actually makes wind turbine of any type finds quickly that there are
so many aspects they never envisioned while shackled to their armchair that they
weren't even in the ballpark.

Burned-out generators, ice, hail, 80 mph gusts in quickly changing wind
directions, rotors being ripped apart by precession - these are the issues real
turbines have to deal with, like Indy cars worry about ground effects and
pulling 3 G's downward just to stay on the track.

Imagine people on the sidelines telling how much faster their own wheelbarrow is
that the Indy cars, if only they could qualify to race because of some
technicality, is about where most of this backbiting type of talk is really at.
What we always say is "show us the data" (and stop yelling). There's no
substitute for data! :)

Does anyone have a machine that has generated any electricity yet?

Don't get too heated up on the cyberspace - hey oit;s all good. We need to stay
focused on what takes place in real space. Renderings are a good place to
start, but renderings won't power our future civilization. Remember Wil E.
Coyote. Any machine or concept is perfectly reasonable as long as it must only
work on screen in animated form.

:) Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 516 From: Alexander V. Munoz Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan
Subject: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan



Hello,
I'm new to the AWE concept but extremely intrigued. My name is
Corporal Alexander Munoz and I'll be deploying with the 3rd Brigade
Combat Team of the 101st Airborne Division early next year to Eastern
Afghanistan. And I'd be extremely interested in corresponding with
anyone about the feasibility of utilizing the AWE concept in
Afghanistan. There's a long history of kite flying there and a need
for electricity across most of the country, especially among the rural
population. Small prototype-sized systems of generating electricity
via kites would likely be of great assistance to the villages,
allowing for a notable increase in electrification that would visibly
improve the quality of life of local Afghans, possibly helping to
power water filtration systems, classrooms, and more.

If there's anyone you could help connect me with on exploring this
concept, I and my unit would be much obliged.

Sincerely,
Alexander V. Munoz
CPL, US Army
B CO, 1-187th IN BN, 3rd BCT, 101st Airborne Division
646-283-3540

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 517 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware
Attachments :
Hi,
Doug wrote:
"Seasoned professionals in the wind energy industry always keep asking the same
question: What is the power curve?
The answer is always the same: We expect to have the data to verify our
projections soon - you'll see!"
Good remark but for kite systems before power curve determination,it is necessary to determine aerodynamic features of used kites.P.5 from "Kitegen" gives 8 for L/D (there are other parameters),and p.7 indicates a better output with a projection towards L/D = 12.Companies try to improve this.
 
P.22 from "aerodynamique..."gives L/D = 45 for a conventionnal blade of wind turbine.It is far much more.This document can be utile for extrapolations into kites.
 
Soaring record gliders like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T3pYMFXn5Y could become high L/D kites.
 
Pierre B 
  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 518 From: Allister Furey Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware [2 Attachments]
Hi All
While gliders can have L/D over 60, Bas Lansdorp did an analysis in one
of his papers when he was at Delft showing that any advantage from L/D
over 15 (if i recall correctly) is overwhelmed by cable drag. So paired
with current tether material technology, once L/D of 15 is achieved you
would be better off focusing on optimising other aspects of the wing's
performance/cost.
Allister
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 519 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan
The Asians certainly do have a very extensive backround dating back over several centuries in building kites.
 
The predominant prevailing winds in Afghanistan blow from the north during winter (January) and from the northwest during summer (July). Much of that nation is mountainous and at high elevation (over 9000-feet) above maritime sea level (MST), meaning that there is potential for high wind velocities at numerous high-altitude locations.
 
There are certainly several people associated with AWE who have designed and built workable single-kite concepts that can drive water pumps and/or electrical generators. Seems like a possible application for Dave Santos tripod system.
 
 
Harry
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 520 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware
Talking about 'vaporware'. Any checks on mailing addresses used to join/post on this group. The 'AWE - Afghan Alexander' address does not seem to exist any longer on Yahoo! within same day of the post.
About time as I was thinking already for some security measures to be introduced here.
Regards. JohnO

==================

JohnO and All, Alexander will receive reports through me; he has not joined the group yet directly. He will also be able to read the front public messages in the group. Each joining person in the program at Yahoo may choose to hide their e-mail address when they join our group. JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 521 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Another AWE article in popular press
Another good article; this one centered around next week's HAWP conference in Chico:

http://miller-mccune.com/science_environment/lets-get-wind-power-off-the-ground-1578

(This article mentions Makani power. I offer--and accept--no responsibility regarding this company's products, statements, claims nor rebuttals from AWE aficionados!   ;-)

(default) Dave
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 522 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Vaporware - roof top turbines
It is interesting that Doug Selsam made reference to roof-top mounted VAWT's. An aquaintence of mine actually built a 3-"blade" Flettner-type concept and installed it on his roof.  After a few wekks, his wife demanded "that he take the damn thing down" due to the noise it made . . . the bearings became noisy. It generated far less power than he expected . . . between ground level and 1000-metres (3200-feet), wind velocity has been measured to have risen by a factor of 5 (10m/s near ground level, 50m/s at 1000m).
 
There are many tall steel-frame buildings that can if fact allow for the installation of roof-top wind turbines, several of which can be installed via a flexible mounting or a spring suspension system that minimizes the transmission of noise and vibration into the steel superstructure of tall buildings. The strength of the superstructures of many tall buildings will allow for a helicopter to land on the roof.
 
There are several political issues that would need to be resolved in regard to attaching AWE technology to tall buildings in urban environments.
 
Harry
 
 


CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 523 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Moving Forward
Thanks Dave(s),
Default Dave's "......(em)powering Humanity" piece clearly aligns with why I am here. I see the possibilities so enunciated and I sincerely seek committed pros able and willing to actualise this vision in the remotest parts of the globe begining from NIGERIA.
Together, we can leave this world a much better place than we grew up in it.
Regards.
JohnO

---
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 524 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank
Pray this age dawns. It should make a new heaven on a new earth. Nonetheless, I see it approaching.

--- JohnO

SEE On Tue, 10/27/09, Darin Selby

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 525 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank
As per my previous post, Aquabank™ does not need to be invented; it already exists with as many as 1000 installed units totaling hundreds of gigawatts capacity. It's called "Pumped Hydro."  See, for instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

It is rarely connected to alternate energy resources (more typically to "ordinary" coal , gas or nuclear powered generators) although one is being specifically tied to a wind farm in Southern California today.

Dave
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 526 From: Grant Calverley Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Selam's Missing Insights
We will be doing basically the same talk at Chico and bringing the same prototype.
We look forward to sharing.

Good thoughts in your last post about water pumping.


Grant Calverley
SkyMill Energy Inc
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 527 From: Dean Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Moving Forward
JohnO,

Your: "Together, we can leave this world a much better place than we grew up in it."
This is what it is all about, not what we can't do but what we can do.
Stay strong, JohnO.

Dan'l
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 528 From: harry valentine Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa
Many regions across Africa are certainly blessed with much wind energy.
There is much offshore wind energy along Africa's west coast.
Aquabank energy storage can operate at ocean coastal areas using seawater.
Voith Hydro offers a pumping turbine capable of operating over a vertical head
of 2000 feet or 600 meters.
 
Aquabank technology is suitable for use at coastal locations using seawater,

especially where fresh water is scarce or suitable mountain lakes unavailable.

Evaporation is not a problem with Aquabank technology.
  
Harry

 

 

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 529 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa
I should think that Aquabank technology is more dependent upon geologic conditions
favourable to water-tight, cheap tunnels than a supply of salt water.  A fresh water body
of any size never freezes to the bottom, and daily pumping would put much of the inefficiency
into heating the fluid.  Mountain lakes near steep slopes are the first places to locate for this, IMHO.  
Extreme elevations do not necessarily give the most economical layouts.

Bob Stuart
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 530 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa
Coastal flooding and erosion problems has been a recurrent headache at the Lagos bar beach for a while now. Is this technology feasible to turn the problem to a power-generating opportunity?

---
JohnO
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 532 From: harry valentine Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: Aquabank - Africa
You need a rocky coastal area to install Aquabank technology on the ocean front. The water pick-up can be via large pipes with intakes away located from the shoreline. There are ways to reduce coastal erosion . . .one way is to place rocks and boulders along affected coastline. Another way is to build offshore underwater barriers parallel to the shore and using rocks and boulders.
 
Aquabank technology can also be installed at the side of ocean inlets and bays, or near the mouths of rivers that have a floor of rock.
 
 
Harry
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 534 From: harry valentine Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Piezoelectric material and kites
Many AWE members may be aware of demonstrations involving the use or piezoelectric material to generate electric power from wind energy . . . a slat of piezoelectric material or several of them is mounted atop a pole. You may be aware of a possible spin-off involving whereby lightweight piezoelectric structural members may be applied to kites . . . the main problems are low conversion efficiency and the weight of the tether. However, the concept may hold some promise.
Harry
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 535 From: dougselsam Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Good 1st Conference: Feedback
One comment I think most would agree with: "Well it's about time such a conference was held".
That was fun and we did get noticed, I see, thanks to the professional PR work of Virginia, PJ, Christina, & crew.
Thanks to all who invited me, helped me get the "Sky Serpent" demo up and running, and everybody who made the conference possible.

My feedback relates to a few questions posed by conference chairperson Christina Archer regarding:

1) Wind shear issues with regard to Superturbine(R) rotor arrays, meaning a variance in windspeed along the line of rotors;

2) What types of wind speed data, and at what altitudes, would most help get this "industry" "off the ground"?;

3) What about medium altitude "jets"?

I agree that wind shear (variance of windspeed from rotor to rotor, at various points along the shaft) would be an issue with a Superturbine(R) driveshaft of, say, a mile length.

Stretched between landforms, such as hilltops, mountain peaks, or across a canyon, the topography would likely affect both the local wind speed and direction. Rotors closer to the ends of the driveshaft for example might see lower windspeeds, since they are closer to land, than rotors suspended out in space mid-shaft, which might be thousands of feet high, relative to the local land surface.

Suspended between a ground-based or tower-based generator station (heavy) and an airborne station, whether supported by an aerostat or powered into position, we'll tend to see lower wind speeds closer to the ground, and higher windspeeds at altitude.

I thought about these questions on the drive back to Southern California, which took me over the Tejon Pass ("The Grapevine"), through the town of Gorman, CA, known for its high winds. The point was brought home to me that high winds are often associated with high elevations (the reason for the conference). At about 4000 feet elevation, going thru these mountain passes, it was real windy.

Wind shear, or difference between wind speeds at a ground station and the sky above," might be less if one was deploying from a such a high altitude base station, such as on a mountain or ridge, or at least a high altitude area. Then your base station is already "in the sky", in the sense that it is thousands of feet above sea level, at or above the altitude of the lowest "jets".

What data would be most helpful for us?
Well, I'm thinking that some data on the "wind jets" somewhere between the hub heights of today's turbines (300 feet) and 1000 feet, up to say even a mile or 2 above the local land, would be most helpful to at least get started and up into the air.

I've heard of these "jets" a few times, including "nocturnal jets" and would like to know more about them. (Jets lower than "the Jetstream") I think aviation, especially with regard to small planes, and jetliners when approaching or leaving airports may have some good data as a starting place, with regard to these "jets".

For "terrain-enabled" high altitude wind energy, I'd like to know more about the behavior of the winds through mountain passes. It would be good to try and identify key mountain passes where a Superturbine(R) driveshaft could be suspended across for high energy capture, with a high wind energy content and a place for a base station near existing power lines, for example.

For floating turbines flown from mountaintop or high-altitude sites, I'd like to try and identify promising sites with high speed jets in proximity to high-altitude land base-station sites, again with proximity to power lines if possible.

Just as terrestrial wind energy started out in a few key mountain passes in California (San Gorgonio, Tehachapi, and Altamont) that had wind resources many times the average power level at their "groundhugger" hub heights, I surmise that, for wind power from the sky, there would be key locations where the winds at say 1000 feet or even 5000 feet, relative to local terrain, might be far stronger/more persistent/reliable than average.

These sites might be the same as existing windfarm sites in some cases (Suspending turbines miles across the San Gorgonio pass?) or might be new sites not previously considered for wind energy, such as a high plain site with a persistent jet above it.

I could see extending the existing "class 1-class7" nomenclature for high altitude sites, using class 8, 9, 10 and up, or starting our own new classification system. It seems that extending the existing system drives home the point that the reason we prospect in high places is the higher resource to be found there, much as though we'd decided to mine gold from the seafloor canyons near gold-yielding mountain ranges.

As I pointed out at the conference, the way I look at it, the 20th century was all about drilling down for energy, the 21st century will be all about drilling up. And just as the oil industry finds preferred places to drill, we should be looking at finding preferred sites for high altitude wind energy. Logic says some sites must be better than others, and a few sites must be exceptional, if we can find them.

Thanks again to everyone who talked me into coming up to a new favorite area of California (where's Heulle Howswer when you need him?) that I really like because unlike down here, it is green.

So working from the standpoint of finding a way to "get there from here" and the fact that high altitude windpower might be most likely to "grow "from the ground up", and like most organic growth curves, start out low and gradually get higher and higher, I think even groups hoping to harness wind 6 miles and higher, might start out running research prototypes at say a mile above a land-based site already at 5000 feet elevation, provided there are persistent strong winds above the site at a reasonable height. Intuition tells me such sites must exist. I say let's figure out where these promising sites are.

And let's not forget that the competition is already there: people can already buy fairly reliable wind turbines, and at some point we need to have an economical product, actually usable by someone, to fill an actual power production need, whether for battery-charging at a remote site, or grid-tied operation connected to powerlines.
This solution must at least match the economics of existing turbines to be attractive to buyers. Remember, a flying wind turbine is still a wind turbine and people buy them to make power economically. This suggests "set-it-and-forget-it" type unmanned operation, as even the average megawatt turbine makes only about $20/hour: not enough to pay someone to babysit it full time.

Ideally, we should seek to produce electricity cheaper than current wind turbines, as an improved wind turbine in general is one that is more economical over the long haul, than existing turbines, with generation below 4 cents per kWh being the ideal target. If that's not what we think we can produce eventually, we're likely in the wrong business and should be making stunt kites or toys for recreation. The only reason to take any form of wind energy seriously is if it has the potential to outproduce the status quo for the dollars invested.

OK that's all for now. Nice to meet everyone in person at the conference.
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 536 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Slides for 1st conference
Attachments :
    Slides at 1st conference re: AWE Triangle, AWE scales

    The PDF file was converted from PowerPoint.
    All speakers are invited to post their slide set in AWE.

    Lift to you
    and yours

    ....
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 537 From: harry valentine Date: 11/8/2009
    Subject: Re: Good 1st Conference: Feedback - Selsam - Terrain enhanced rotor
    Hi Doug,
     
     
    You may recall from your visits to ski resorts the cable suspended sky trams that ferry skiers up the mountains. At some coastal locations, you have a combination of stationary and moving cables that interconnect the upper and lower cable car stations . . . sometimes with no support in between.
     
     
    Coastal winds blow off the sea and up the side of the coastal mountains. In many locations, it would be possible to connected sky-tram type cables between an lower elevation and an upper elevation . . .and provide support for an extended length version of your wind power  technology. There are many regions around the world where winds are predominantly unidirectional . . . ideal for your technology.
     
     
    If the wind direction varies by 30-degrees, the cosine of 30-degrees is 0.866 . . . so you'd still get 86% of maximum power output when wind direction varies.
     
     
    Harry


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 538 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
    Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 539 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
    Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 540 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/10/2009
    Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 541 From: dave santos Date: 11/11/2009
    Subject: Hypersonic HAPAS, L1 KiteShades, etc.
    When Wayne revealed his 4000mph kite concept at HAWP09 i ran up & said "surely you meant 400mph." But no, he was serious. Wayne is rarely wrong with these grandiose ideas, so i began to think of how such superkites might work.
     
    Possibly easier (shorter/lower) &/or more versatile than a space elevator might be a hypersonic tethered foil, strung from a vast solar-wind kite, that dips down/up anywhere in the atmosphere, pausing for payloads. The solar-sail kite adds back momentum lost by aerodrag & shifts orbit as needed. The system might also sling payloads into high orbits.
     
    hypersonic tether could be as simple as an oblique line with a ceramic shield or as futuristic as a quantum tunneling material that teleports matter past itself. For extended hypersonic dragging a thermocouple sandwich tether might generate electricity or chill itself against heat failure.
     
    Ceramic membrane sounds plausible for hypersonic kite use. The LE stagnation zone gets most of the heating. Electrostatics might keep the ionospheric gas flow from creating excess heat/friction.
     
    Low densities in the upper atmosphere shifts the physics to lower Re, so simpler "cruder" hypersonic wings are enabled.
     
    Speaking of SpaceKites, the L1 orbit is perfect for shading earth with a solar-wind kite. This may be a most elegant countermeasure to planetary warming, until CO2 is reduced. Controlled regional shadowing looks doable by working the kite against tidal forces around L1.
     
    KiteShip has a patent on solar-wind kites. An improvement is an electromagnetic solar-sail membrane developing electro-Bernoulli lift, bending solar-wind ions around its "top" & repelling them from its "bottom", extending membrane life.
     
    Oh well, back to real kites...

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 542 From: coist1_187 Date: 11/11/2009
    Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan
    Thanks for the response, Harry.

    Considering the cultural history and prevailing winds in Afghanistan, I'm hopeful that AWE can be of help there. Even being able to provide a few hours electricity in the rural areas will make a dramatic improvement in peoples lives. And the single-kite concept seems especially intriguing for the ability to function away and off of any electricity grid (and there's seldom any sort of grid in Afghanistan).

    Can you tell me more about this Dave Santos tripod system? I'm new to the whole concept of AWE; and I can't admit to being the most mechanically/technically inclined person. But I do feel that there's great potential here. And if there's any way to actually have some success with a limited AWE project or two in Afghanistan, I'm sure it'd help generate quite a bit of good press and interest in the idea in general.

    Regards,
    Alex
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 543 From: Dave Culp Date: 11/11/2009
    Subject: Re: Hypersonic HAPAS, L1 KiteShades, etc.
    Check out Tethers Unlimited. They are (temporarily, I'm sure!) way ahead of you:
    http://www.tethers.com/

    Dave

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 544 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/11/2009
    Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 545 From: harry valentine Date: 11/12/2009
    Subject: Re: Airborne Wind Energy and Afghanistan
    Hello Alex,
     
    The following two webpages provide info re the Tripod system:
     
    http://www.energykitesystems.net/TripodTether/standard.html
    http://www.energykitesystems.net/TripodTether/index.html
     
    Regards,
     
    Harry