Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES27858to27908
Page 7 of 9.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27858 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27859 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27860 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27861 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27862 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27863 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27864 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27865 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27866 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27867 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27868 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27869 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27870 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27871 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27872 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27873 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27874 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27875 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27876 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27877 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27878 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27880 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27881 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27882 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27883 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27884 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27885 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27886 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion system.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27887 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27888 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27889 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27890 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27891 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27892 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
Subject: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27893 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27894 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27895 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27896 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27897 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27898 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27899 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion sys

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27900 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27901 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27902 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27903 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27904 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27905 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27906 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27907 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion sys

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27908 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kites according to Ground Handling, Launching, and Landing




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27858 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
Single skin or inflatable leading edge kites, AWES will be unlikely power kites.
Power kites are suitable for kitesurf, kiteboard and other sports, perhaps also for boat (not ship) towing, but not for energy generation. As they are used in crosswind mode, flygen or yoyo, there are problems: irregular power with significant losses, low power to space use ratio due to the requirement of spacing within a kite farm. There is no power kite close to a beginning of energy generation making. Even rotary AWES (Daisy, OTS...) now are using rigid blades.  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27859 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
Tallak, The C-Quad is only shown to show a structural lineage to the Mono. Obviously neither is a good water kite, even if the C-Quad was a historic early kitesurfing kite. The Mono is not intended to be a water kite, nor confused as such. Its reviewed here on its specialized SS structure.

As for "mistak(ing) specialization for evolution", Darwin made no mistake basing Evolution specializations like those of Galapagos Finches. What exactly was the "mistake" here?

Between the two kite cases, the mono is specialized for hotter performance in the fun-kite trainer market by a superior LE and higher AR. The old C-Quad is an obsolete curiosity.









 

You mistake specialization for evolution. Most kitesurfers will prefer an inflatable leading edge kite. Some kiters, eg foil boarders and kiteskiers, in particular those doing races, will want foil kites or single skin kites for different reasons.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27860 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/24/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®
Attachments :

    Dave,

    I agree that reorienting the turbines to face the wind results in more complexity and weight but I feel that it is well worth the effort.  With the tether at an angle of 45 deg, reorienting will result in a possible 180% increase in power.  If operation at high altitude results in a 10% increase in wind speed, then this translates to a possible 33% increase in power.  If crosswind action can increase the effective wind speed by 10%, then this will increase the power output by an additional 33%.  In short we can theoretically achieve almost 5 times the power output with these improvements.

    In order to reorient the turbine a horizontal sail is attached to a rotatable ring on the center section of the double universal joint. The force of wind acting on this sail will cause the turbine to reorient so that its axis is horizontal. To maintain the sail in a horizontal position we will need a counterweight on the opposite side of the sleeve.  To counteract the small frictional effects of the rotating element, we may have to slope the horizontal sail slightly.  Alternately the counterweight could be offset to compensate frictional effects.  A drawing to show these additions will be submitted.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27861 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
    Subject: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"
    Attachments :
      Pumping is the same dynamic as "reciprocating", as in engine piston pumping. Virtually all fuel vehicles and homestead generators use piston pumping to drive their rotary generators.

      Its a naïve fallacy to argue that power-kite pumping inputs cannot in principle be converted to smooth rotary motion by stand ME. Many further examples have been cited- like bicycles.


      Inline image


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27862 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
      Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
      Pierre, 

      This is a review topic for the Mono, if you were intending to post on the current "winners" topic.

      You neglect to credit all power kite AWE cases like SkySails and KitePower developing land-based AWES demos and products. 

      The power kite remains the COTS TRL9 AWES WECS baseline. You predict it will be beaten, but you don't say by what. Please post your prediction in the suitable topic.



       

      Tallak, The C-Quad is only shown to show a structural lineage to the Mono. Obviously neither is a good water kite, even if the C-Quad was a historic early kitesurfing kite. The Mono is not intended to be a water kite, nor confused as such. Its reviewed here on its specialized SS structure.

      As for "mistak(ing) specialization for evolution", Darwin made no mistake basing Evolution specializations like those of Galapagos Finches. What exactly was the "mistake" here?

      Between the two kite cases, the mono is specialized for hotter performance in the fun-kite trainer market by a superior LE and higher AR. The old C-Quad is an obsolete curiosity.







      On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎24‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎56‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, tallak@tveide.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      You mistake specialization for evolution. Most kitesurfers will prefer an inflatable leading edge kite. Some kiters, eg foil boarders and kiteskiers, in particular those doing races, will want foil kites or single skin kites for different reasons.

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27863 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
      Gordon,

      Listing ST problems is not by itself a condemnation. To hold each ST rotor hub square to the wind is a huge problem, since added stabilizing lever-arms will be needed.

      We agree on how "worth it" would be for someone to try and correct identified ST flaws with unlimited complexity. Pure cool factor for any hacker that can pull it off, in the spirit of Rube Goldberg.

      We can disagree whether a patched ST design has a future in industrial AWE.



       

      Dave,

      I agree that reorienting the turbines to face the wind results in more complexity and weight but I feel that it is well worth the effort.  With the tether at an angle of 45 deg, reorienting will result in a possible 180% increase in power.  If operation at high altitude results in a 10% increase in wind speed, then this translates to a possible 33% increase in power.  If crosswind action can increase the effective wind speed by 10%, then this will increase the power output by an additional 33%.  In short we can theoretically achieve almost 5 times the power output with these improvements.

      In order to reorient the turbine a horizontal sail is attached to a rotatable ring on the center section of the double universal joint. The force of wind acting on this sail will cause the turbine to reorient so that its axis is horizontal. To maintain the sail in a horizontal position we will need a counterweight on the opposite side of the sleeve.  To counteract the small frictional effects of the rotating element, we may have to slope the horizontal sail slightly.  Alternately the counterweight could be offset to compensate frictional effects.  A drawing to show these additions will be submitted.

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27864 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/24/2019
      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27865 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
      Subject: Re: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"
      Attachments :
        Another major existence proof of a pumped energy solution is Solar Power, with characteristic daily waves of daylight and dark, as slow pumping and, slower yet, seasonal pumping, and weather noise. The solar engineer accepts sun pumping dynamics and designs accordingly. Its not baseload power, but its still good.

        Similarly, the AWES engineer solves wind-input pumping and rig-pumping challenges. Scaling up AWE industrial power is slow due to normal scaling challenges. Solving intermittent, bursty, noisy, fluky, pulsing, pumping power is a mature engineering capability.

        Pumping has always worked in biology and engineering; rotary too; with endless workability. Lets perfect both the pumping and rotary parts of AWE, and the conversions back and forth.



         

        Pumping is the same dynamic as "reciprocating", as in engine piston pumping. Virtually all fuel vehicles and homestead generators use piston pumping to drive their rotary generators.

        Its a naïve fallacy to argue that power-kite pumping inputs cannot in principle be converted to smooth rotary motion by stand ME. Many further examples have been cited- like bicycles.


        Inline image


        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27866 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
        Gordon,

        The rotor hubs will need far more stabilization than those vanes and counterweights. Both will even act as destabilizers in turbulence and galloping. The mass and complexity is compounding, offsetting any advantage proportionally.

        These predictions should be tested, rather than be an argument against testing. Let all ST claims be tested. Test everything, even doubtful ideas, against all predictions. It will all sort out nicely.



        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27867 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Mono or not, C-Quad or not, the efficiency of a power kite is low in regard to wind energy standards, unless there is a novel way to use it.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27868 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        It does matter that this is a Mono review. Its does not pass peer review anywhere to ignore modest on-topic expectations.

        What "wind energy standards"? Does that mean efficiency only defined at the surface, by towers? What sort of flight efficiency is that? Zero.

        Power kites by far have the highest power-to-weight of any AWE WECS. SkySails and KiteShip ship kites, NASA X-38 NPW and MegaFly are all powerful cases beyond what any other AWES WECS has done.

        Kitesurfing is wind energy too. Laurels, Victory Lap, and Champagne. Powering grids is next. Its only too hard for those who do not try.

        The Mono's innovative design is a tiny reflection of tremendous power kite progress all over the world. kPower believes the modern Power Kite and Pilot-Lifter are the most strategic inventions of our time, if the transition to renewable energy is to abate the Holocene Extinction. Let all the marginal wing ideas have their chance too. Let them beat the power kite in the real world.

        If power kites win as hoped, helpful art will have counted more than undue embitterment. Pissing on a golden swan does not stain.






         

        Mono or not, C-Quad or not, the efficiency of a power kite is low in regard to wind energy standards, unless there is a novel way to use it.

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27869 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Dave, the power kite as down-selected AWES is premature or too late, as power kites are not new. This is an AWE forum, not one of numerous forums to discuss about kitesurf, kiteboard, Mono, not Mono, C-Quad, not C-Quad and so on.  Explain how you produce electricity with a detailed description, even with power kites, or go on these forums.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27870 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        AWES have parts that are wings.   It is core matter to explore wings used in systems that are generating electricity, heat, light, potential energy, pulling, pushing, hammering, transport, etc. Specific wings matter in their systems. Choice of wings in an AWES will matter greatly.  We examine wings in light in order to integrate them effectively in total systems.

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27871 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27872 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/24/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27873 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        👍 Pierre.Find RAD anywhere and bring it here in non-chat technical style to serve RAD.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27874 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Joe,
        In my previous post I enumerated some kite forums, quickly indicating they can be seen as AWE forums by your criterion. 
        I don't think a catalog of kites serves RAD, excepted if a conversion system is developed as I often do.
        Concerning non-chat technical style is the following message acceptable to you https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/27759 ?

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27875 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Pierre, see the special new sector of two parts. Part 1 is the table of titles or plans; that table of titles is exactly and only for tiles of AWES plans and nothing else; those titles are to be hyperlinked. Placing a title of a plan hyperlinked to a dedicated topic thread that will unfold the specific AWES plan is the second sector.  Then the owner of the plan is to use that dedicated topic thread to give enough detail and illustrations to allow others in the world to make their copy of the specific AWES.   The two sectors are open to you and all who want to share an AWES plan faithful to RAD.

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27876 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        A kite system is a conversion system when flown.  

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27877 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Joe,

        As you do not reply to my question, I ask again:
        Concerning non-chat technical style is the following message acceptable to you https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/27759 ?
         A simple answer by yes or no will be enough.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27878 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        A kite system is a kite with a conversion system.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27880 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Pierre, it is not clear to me that you recognize or not that 27759 is part of the new special AWES titles topic thread.  Only short titles linked are allowed in that special topic thread. So, of course, the laconic content of 27759 exactly is "O.K".    27759 is not chat; 27759 is as full as allowed; no comment is allowed in the special titles topic thread. So, with the proviso stated here and elsewhere, 27759 perfectly fulfills the policy for title posts in the titles-only topic thread started at 27718 where this two sector new opportunity is first introduced.  With that proviso and structured: "Yes" to your question; if you have something else in mind that differs from the stucture, like chat or regular laconic spew, then "No" would be the answer; in the rest of the forum we are to aim rich RAD material in appropriate forms.  Sometimes a rich link alone may suffice; use your best discretion to build AWE.  Thank you for your quest. 


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27881 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        So, 
        we have
        1. A kite system is a conversion system. 
        2. A kite system is a kite system. 
        3. A kite system is a kite. 
        4. A kite has more than one energy-conversion process occurring in it.
        5. A Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers flown is a kite system with ore than one energy-conversion process occurring in such system. 
        6. Any kite is a system, thus a kite system, with sever energy-conversion processes occurring in the system; and additional complexity to a kite system may be designed, built, and operated where that additional complexity may introduced additional energy-conversion processes into the one system.  Hence, we see that a kite may be less or more complex in its design.  A kite that is very complex remains a kite (thus a kite system). 
        7. Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be be integrated with other parts to form a new kite system that perhaps involves more energy conversion sub-systems.  Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be duplicated in a kite system for special purposes.
        8. Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be mixed with other wings to form a new more complex kite system. 
        9. A kite, say: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers, has a wing set coupled by a line set to another wing set (which might be a pilot's hand or a stake or pole or an electric generator. 




        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27882 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Thanks Joe for your explain and your reply.
        The message on  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/27759 contains only one word. So I deduce you could accept messages with only one word. But in the same time you make an observation about my message that comprises a list of AWE forum and several words. I do not understand why. Please can you explain this? Thanks.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27883 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers

        So, 

        we have
        1. A kite system is a conversion system. [* A kite system has a conversion system.]
        2. A kite system is a kite system. [*Tautology] 
        3. A kite system is a kite. [* A kite system is a kite comprising a system]
        4. A kite has more than one energy-conversion process occurring in it. [*Potentially]
        5. A Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers flown is a kite system with ore than one energy-conversion process occurring in such system. [*No, it is a kite] 
        6. Any kite is a system, thus a kite system, with sever energy-conversion processes occurring in the system; and additional complexity to a kite system may be designed, built, and operated where that additional complexity may introduced additional energy-conversion processes into the one system.  Hence, we see that a kite may be less or more complex in its design.  A kite that is very complex remains a kite (thus a kite system). [*Only kites comprising their respective systems]
        7. Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be be integrated with other parts to form a new kite system that perhaps involves more energy conversion sub-systems.  Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be duplicated in a kite system for special purposes. [* ...parts to form a kite system, not yet "a new kite system"]
        8. Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers may be mixed with other wings to form a new more complex kite system. [* ...a more complex kite system, not yet"a new more complex kite system"]
        9. A kite, say: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers, has a wing set coupled by a line set to another wing set (which might be a pilot's hand or a stake or pole or an electric generator. 

        To resume: a kite may comprise a (conversion) system but a kite is not a kite system.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27884 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Pierre, my observation about your list of forums that have attention using kite systems was published; I repeat the same: 


        "👍 Pierre. Find RAD anywhere and bring it here in non-chat technical style to serve RAD."

        I clarify:  It is a good thing if someone sifts any forum of any type for gems that may serve RAD.  Bring such findings here for study toward AWES advance. Communicate findings in a manner and style that respects future and present readers of our forum. Set the scene; tell the finding; maybe tell how the finding may advance AWE in some way.    

        Thank you. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27885 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        So Joe I repeat also the same I correct as it was a list of kite forums, not AWE forums:

        The message on  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/27759 contains only one word. So I deduce you could accept messages with only one word. But in the same time you make an observation about my message that comprises a list of kite forums and several words. I do not understand why. Please can you explain this? Thanks.


        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27886 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion system.

        The topic will aim to prove the following statement: 

        "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion system."

        The proof effort has "kite" narrowed to those objects that are with sets of wings coupled by positively tensioned lines tensed by the kite interacting dynamically with one or more media.   Note that much convention abbreviates the actual kite to just one wing in a kite.  This proof rather does not so abbreviate; this proof recognizes that a wing alone is not a kite as the wing alone has not coupling of wings by tensed lined tensed by dynamics of coupled wings interacting in a media.  To follow the proof, the common convention of wing alone as kite is not used. 

             So kite is a complex of minimally two wings and one coupling line interacting with a media causing tension in the coupling line.   If there is no resultant of positive tension between at least two coupled wings, then kite does not subsist. 

            Thus kite is not one part but is of at least three parts; thus a kite is a system of parts; and that system is of a type that is distinguished from other systems by the resulting of kiting; thus it is a kite system.  "System" is taken for this proof as "a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism."  Since a kite herein is a set of things working together as parts of the while mechanism that does the kiting, then kite is a system. 

             For kite's coupling line to be tensed by the coupled wings interacting with the media, a conversion of energy occurs through the interaction of wings and coupling line(s) with the media; an exchange of momentum occurs; and in that exchange heat is generated and other forms of energy are generated by exchanges of electrons, by eddies and changes of electrical environment of the parts, resultant vibrations, etc.   The kite which is a kite system while being a kite does convert energies from one form to another. Thus kite is a system that converts energies from one form to another.  Thus kite is a conversion system. Thus kite is with itself; thus kite is a system with a conversion system. 


        Of course, there may be kites of ever more complexity with advanced ability to focus on converting to some special form of energy.  A kite that is altered can be seen as distinct from the unaltered kite; and thus an altered kite may be seen as a new kite distinct from the kite that going to receive an alteration. That is an object is itself and not what it is not.  


        A drive to ignore that even the most simple kite is a system may well tend to lower creative potential in design.  A drive to ignore that even the most simple kite converts energies may lower the design potential of a worker.  


          

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27887 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
        Pierre, it is OK that you do not see AWE in kite forums. 
        We certainly differ on that point. Differing is OK also. 
        Advance RAD as you might.  Wishing you the best. 

         
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27888 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
        Subject: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet
        Attachments :
          How coherently phased looping kites might transfer energy across a lattice-

          Inline image

          If you don't see this move, visit-





            @@attachment@@
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27889 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          Pierre, 

          You understand how Music Cultures are diverse, but share core physical elements like rhythm, pitch, and so on. Its the same with diverse kite cultures. They all use AWE to fly, but have distinct styles. Ask any physicist. There is no contradiction.

          As for the irrational fear of AWE somehow proving too late or too early: Now really seems the best time ever, if you want to pioneer AWE, especially in preparation for the 2030 timeframe. 

          You seem very cynical and sarcastic, and kites are not the real problem. Is everything Ok?







           

          Pierre, it is OK that you do not see AWE in kite forums. 

          We certainly differ on that point. Differing is OK also. 
          Advance RAD as you might.  Wishing you the best. 

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27890 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/25/2019
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®

          Dave,

          The system I propose is a restrained lifter kite with diagonal stays at the four corners.  This will minimize the turbulence. In addition the gyroscopic effect of the rotating turbines will damp changes in orientation.

          By the way, what is “galloping”?

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27891 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
          Hi Gordon,

          Agreed that lifter kites can do the job, but if the ST has comparatively excess mass-to-power, its likely to cost too much to provide the extra lift. Then there are the complications of how best to design and rig everything, not easy. The patent and concept drawings are not shop drawings to build from, but crude cartoons. Then there is are the operational large-scale challenges, not to mention huge safety and reliability issues.

          These are not arguments against ST testing, but predictions to test. Let anyone make better predictions. As a practical matter, its going to take a super team and considerable capital. The R&D money is proven by everyone who markets aggressively. Finding the magic talent is the harder job. Hoping Doug has been getting ready all his life to scale up, at least for one classic try, rather than "go away quietly", as he puts it.

          If AWE as a whole is finally funded like a real moonshot, let hope the ST club is ready for that. Maybe your ST upgrade concept is the seed of a program.



           

          Dave,

          The system I propose is a restrained lifter kite with diagonal stays at the four corners.  This will minimize the turbulence. In addition the gyroscopic effect of the rotating turbines will damp changes in orientation.

          By the way, what is “galloping”?

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27892 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2019
          Subject: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)
          Gordon asked about Line Gallop. Its the same excited string dynamic as Strum and Hum, at smaller scales and higher frequencies. Its proposed ST driveshafts would experience galloping dynamics, as well as magnus and bladed rotor effects.




          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27893 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          Dave,

          Apparently you don't know and understand music. By the same you fail to define AWE, confusing AWE with kites. You fail to produce a consistent prediction as I already mentioned, by putting AWE with kites in the same field a day, then in different fields in another day. So you cannot see the difference between kite forums of which I provided a list, and AWE forums. Perhaps a kite forum is better for you as there is no need to generate electricity.
          The real problem for me is that as a consequence I discuss with you.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27894 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          Pierre,

          The uniqueness of an AWE Forum is that ALL kites are studied as energy devices for what they may teach us in that context. Its true that Kite Sport forums give us special knowledge, but they do not focus energy production.

          The same applies to Music Theory; ALL music is studied for both essential and unique properties. There is even a nice intersection of kites that make music, and Music Forums also value on-topic posting.

          We make such connections across all fields of knowledge, without contradiction.





           

          Dave,


          Apparently you don't know and understand music. By the same you fail to define AWE, confusing AWE with kites. You fail to produce a consistent prediction as I already mentioned, by putting AWE with kites in the same field a day, then in different fields in another day. So you cannot see the difference between kite forums of which I provided a list, and AWE forums. Perhaps a kite forum is better for you as there is no need to generate electricity.
          The real problem for me is that as a consequence I discuss with you.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27895 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          I beg to differ:  Kites use aerodynamimc LIFT to fly, the do NOT use airborne wind energy to fly.
          Energy = force x distance.  The lifter kite experiences force, but not distance. 
          The previous "given" of kites is that they at least provide lift.
          Airborne wind energy was supposed to be additive to what previously existed.
          Of COURSE anyone could take the mere WORDS and play with them to SAY energy in the wind is used to lift the kite therefore any kite "is really" AWE.
          When the concept of airborne wind energy was to take kites, that generate no electricity, pump no water, do no work besides elevating, and add SOMETHING NEW, whereby the kite generates electricty, or pumps water etc, or something NEW, NOT JUST FLYING  FREAKIN' KITE THAT ANY 5-YEAR OLD CAN DO for the price of a few cents.
          What kind of idiot would try to imply they added something NEW without adding anything new whatsoever?
          By playing with words?  By not changing anything?  By staying with the old status-quo - the "given" we started with?
          By not inventing a single new useful thing, just flying a kite like a 5-year-old?
          Someone desperate to pretend they are the world's leading AWE researcher without contributing anything useful, with no apparent ability to really get anything going, that's who.
          The whole topic is NOTHING BUT WORDPLAY,
          and its purpose is
          NOTHING BUT AN EXCUSE
          Redefining words is NOT engineering, NOT inventing,
          and anyone who gets mired in the question is allowing themselves (ourselves) to be dragged down into the nothingness that the nothingness-promoters hope can become contagious to the point that their nothingness can become "the most effective AWE system", generating zero power or maybe 5 supposed Watts or whatever.
          It's all a big excuse, and part of the very old concept of seemingly advancing onesself by dragging others down instead of progressing higher onesself.
          Just listen to this crap.  Today it's (supposedly) all about "music".  Latest diversion.  Latest way to squeeze "one more day" of pretense of progress out of the intentionally-created confusion.  Will we learn anything about music from this?  Will daveS give Pierre some valuable tips regarding playing piano today?  Will he finally generate enough electricity to power a headphone?  The only "music" taking place is daveS enjoying the "sound" of his own "voice" as he continues to try to enforce the unreasonable idea that he is accomplishing AWE, without accomplishing AWE.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          Pierre, it is OK that you do not see AWE in kite forums. 

          We certainly differ on that point. Differing is OK also. 
          Advance RAD as you might.  Wishing you the best. 

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27896 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)
          Dave,
          Can this galloping phenomenon occur in a tether? Power lines are horizontal and much heavier than tethers. They are also horizontal.
          Gordon
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27897 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
          This facility is powered by a restrained lifter with diagonal stays at 3 corners.  It was already here when we moved in.  It uses a tower.  But since "everything is a kite", the tower "is really" a kite, so we are AWE-powered already.  And the wind itself is "airborne" and contains "energy", so, just as flying a kite "is really" airborne wind energy, all existing wind energy "is really" airborne wind energy.  The wind itself "is really" airborne wind energy.
          See?
          Any IDIOT can play such meaningless word games, to destroy any idea, any conversation, even me!
          :)
          The only problem with that is, the goal was to DEVELOP ideas, not destroy ideas on-paper, before they even get started.
          Really, if, after 12 years, if this stuff even needs to be explained, we're barking up the wrong tree.  Which is, of course, "really" "a kite", so "is really" airborne wind energy.  Problem solved.  Again.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <gordon_sp@... propose is a restrained lifter kite with diagonal stays at the four corners.  This will minimize the turbulence. In addition the gyroscopic effect of the rotating turbines will damp changes in orientation.

          By the way, what is “galloping”?

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27898 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet
          Read the text:
          "creating the illusion of a wave form"
          keyword: "illusion"

          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27899 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion sys

          I think you are sick.

          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27900 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          This entire line of talk is a "perversion" system, "perverting" the very idea of AWE, for no gain.
          This is SO FUNNY!  Almost unbelievable.  I remember thinking at HAWP-2009, "these people only know how to fly kites, and that is really all they are here for, and all they really want to do, is "just fly kites" and that is as far as most of them will ever get with their supposed interest in "AWE".


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27901 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Proof of practical Electrical Generation from "Pumping"
          The real question in my mind is, with such a simple concept, why are you doing nothing about it?


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27902 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SUPERTURBINE®
          Dave,
          You mention safety and reliability. My concept involves a main tether (cable drive) and four auxiliary tethers which should be considered a relatively safe system. Pulleys and turbines are fairly reliable systems.
          Gordon
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27903 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Line Gallop and Strum (review and ST shaft context)
          Yes, even toy tethers sing in a fresh breeze, and turbulence kicks every which way at all scales.

          An ST driveshaft is thick and long, so gallop forces are predicted for turbulent gusty conditions.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27904 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          Indeed as Joe and Dave don't make any achievable AWE plan, their only way out is to change the meaning of words to claim AWE success.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27905 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Mono 2.0 SS Power kite with Carbon Whiskers
          Doug, Don't overlook a Lifter's energetic downwash and wake in accounting for lift force. That's where the motion-of-power, the work, happens. Every lifter kite's mass at altitude is potential energy as well. Ask a physics professor how cool that is.

          Music was sympathetically invoked to connect with Pierre's background, not the imposture you cry "Wolf" about. Go after Google's cooked AWE search results, if you want to be thanked for righting wrong.

          The Mono 2.0 would do so much for you. Try one for greater AWE understanding and happiness. Pierre already has a nice little power kite. Let your power kites be AWE friends and teachers. Enjoy AWE.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27906 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Best Kite Network Lattice Wave Model Yet
          Its no "illusion"- the Wave Function is real. 



           

          Read the text:
          "creating the illusion of a wave form"
          keyword: "illusion"

          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27907 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: "Any kite is a kite system and is a system with a conversion sys
          Doug, What a horrible thought. Try to think better than that.

          Its an interesting question how to define a system within a system. Basic physics itself is rich complex system, but that's not what the FAA was concerned with when they designated "AWES" as system-based.




          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27908 From: dougselsam Date: 7/26/2019
          Subject: Re: Power Kites according to Ground Handling, Launching, and Landing
          The strange thing to me is this never-ending attempt to feign expertise in AWE by over-generalizing to the point of saying nothing, while pretending to be saying something.  "Success in AWE" is talked about as some sort of abstract concept rather than acknowledging 12 years of failure to come up with a single promising path.  Others make power.  K-whatever does not.  Why would anyone even listen to this drivel?   There is no reason to act as though AWE is still hypothetical.  There are unlimited ways to make power from the wind, unlimited ways to do AWE, and plenty of people doing it.  Not that hard, really.  Whether anyone can come up with a way to take AWE past the "curiosity" or "demo" stage, to form an economical energy solution is another question.  But sitting around with your wheelbarrow while racing cars zoom past, acting as though race cars are only a hypothetical concept, is just a way of pretending your wheelbarrow is a race car.
          (Prediction: JoeF with unlimited time on his hands starts googling "wheelbarrow races" and looking up Wikipedia-type definitions of "wheelbarrow" to try and counter my point...)


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...