Digest

Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group. AWES 26690 to 26739

Page 425 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26690	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26691	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26692	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26693	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26694	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26695	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26696	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26697	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26698	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Defining "Active Lift"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26699	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26700	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26701	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26702	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26703	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26704	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26705	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26706	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26707	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26708	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26709	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26710	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26711	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26712	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26713	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26714	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26715	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26716	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26717	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26718	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26719	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26720	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26721	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26722	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26723	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26724	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26725	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26726	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26727	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26728	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26729	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26730	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26731	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26732	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26733	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26734	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26735	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26736	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26737	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26738	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26739	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26690	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Attachments :

No, Dave, you are repeating your same mistake dozens of times. You see looping in a wind gradient in both cases – for the DS glider and the Cyclo-Kite. So you conclude, incorrectly, that they must be based on a common principle, which you claim is DS. That is incorrect. You have failed to show why the Cyclo-Kite uses DS. All you can do is endless repeat your false claim. You do not understand DS. Yet, amazingly, you declare that you are an expert in DS. That claim is also preposterous. You are an expert in BS.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 8:28 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Peter, the Wikipedia animation shows how a looping aircraft in a gradient gets a boost. The cyclokite was flying in a gradient on the beach, with close dynamic similarity to the animation.

Lets agree that's BS to you, but you won't get a better explanation.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎16‎:‎41‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26691	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

DaveS, nice notice! Seems logically correct to me. You brought up a scenario of "not slowing the wind" while achieving a conversion to a new form of energy by accelerating the wind by energy input for a resultant of plasma. So, the claim as stated at the start does not cover all ground; tweaking is apparently needed.

Perhaps: Without accelerating the wind by a Device, ..... etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26692	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Doug

Note the difference between your word substitution of "extracting" for Joe's "converting". They are not the same. My logic applies to "converting".

Dear daveS: The idea that the wind is slowed when extracting kinetic energy from the wind is long-recognized.

One more first-grade concept. After 12 years of supposed wind energy research? And you're still trying to figure out the ABC's? Really?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26693	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Has a proof been put up on the table that the beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26694	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Sorry PeterS,

The Active Lift concept does not seem well defined, but the hardware is. Yes, we look at hardware closely, and will be patient for the pure concept to be better defined.

Define yourself if you can.

No, Dave, you’ve got it wrong again. You fail to separate the concept from the hardware. The concept of Active Lift is what is of interest to AWE, not the specific hardware of the Active Lift Tubine..

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 8:22 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

PeterS, Comparing AWES concepts and hardware is what we do here, dumb or not.. The ALT compares very poorly with power kites by just offering first-party theory and your "breakthrough" claim, but no proper comparison data. Skepticism in AWE is well based on known low power-to-weight of VAWT class. Power kites are the highest power-to-weight of known flying WECS.

Sorry you think using the power kite in AWE for baseline data is dumb liar nonsense. Its really not.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎11‎:‎58‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26695	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Let Doug say something informed on the DS topic, rather than blow smoke about anything else.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26696	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

I think you two are insane. I do not think your conversation has any bearing on AWE. I do not believe you two have any idea what you re even talking about. As usual, you two are attempting to establish "expert" status in the art of developing new wind energy solutions, without developing any wind energy solutions. Your best attempt is to inject doubt through injections of nonsense. As I've long-stated here, your combined strategy seems to be "if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit." Even that is impossible for you guys, as you are already baffled yourselves by the whole topic, and drowning in your own bullshit.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Dear daveS: The idea that the wind is slowed when extracting kinetic energy from the wind is long-recognized.

One more first-grade concept. After 12 years of supposed wind energy research? And you're still trying to figure out the ABC's? Really?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26697	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Doug, be patient. See if we don't circle back on some real insight in AWE. Often we do.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Dear daveS: The idea that the wind is slowed when extracting kinetic energy from the wind is long-recognized.

One more first-grade concept. After 12 years of supposed wind energy research? And you're still trying to figure out the ABC's? Really?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26698	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Defining "Active Lift"?

This topic is for sharing any definition of Active Lift that could pass muster in Wikipedia or NASA lexicons.

Example for Static Lift-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_lift

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26699	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

"The topic" was extracting energy from the wind, converting it to electricity, using no tower, as of 12 years ago.

My most basic comment on "DS" is it has always stood for "Doug Selsam".

If I had anything to add about dynamic soaring, I would. Unlike you, I do not feel a compulsion to dominate topics I have no relevant thoughts on. I say let you guys have fun touching on every known topic in Wikipedia. When you've gone through every topic, you can start over and repeat them all as you two have been doing for some time now. It is not changing anything.

What you are still attempting after 12 years of no power is to overcome that by how many times you can post on your own website. The number is infinite. If you posted an infinite number of times, it would still not help.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26700	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

Hi PierreB,

You seem to be ignoring that the blades of the Active Lift Turbine do not move downwind relative to the central axis of the VAWT. So the blades are not moving downwind in the same way that a reel-out kite moves downwind.

The invention is finding a way to obtain the benefits of moving downwind without the losses. That is what is different about the ALT. The relative motion to accomplish that is difficult to understand and most ingenious.

The key to understanding the ALT is, in my opinion, to see that the blades do move downwind, but only relative to the upwind gear, not to the central axis of the VAWT.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:07 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Hi PeterS,

Yes. I precise a reeling flygen would be concerned, lossing tangential force during reel-out phase.

My idea is that by using active lift, we loss tangential force. So a prototype of an ALT VAWT or a complete simulation would be needed in order to validate the ALT concept.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26701	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Attachments :

No, Dave, you are just repeating your error. You don’t understand DS.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:08 AM
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

Great Source JoeF. Should help PeterS with his issues concerning DS low altitude and "blocking (only)" definition. This text jumped out-

" Deittert et al. show that the probability of winds that permit dynamic soaring by small uavs exceeds 50% in the southern oceans, and this probability is roughly 90% for albatrosses.4 The diﬀerence is because albatrosses can descend to very low altitude (dragging a wingtip in the water) and uavs must maintain a signiﬁcant safety margin. "

Peter's Cyclokite similarly flies very low, where he claims wind gradient hurts his performance.

PeterS, keep and open mind about whether we can prove to you anything. We have not given up so fast, but continue to offer you evidence.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26702	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

No, Dave, you are wrong again. VAWT blades do not lose “time” in a headwind and downwind phase states. Show me your diagram. What you are saying does not seem to correlate with reality.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:15 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Like Reeling AWES wings, classic VAWT motion requires blade mass to lose time in headwind and downwind phase-states. AWES and HAWT design options include pure crosswind travel modes.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎07‎:‎03‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26703	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

DaveS,

Just as I suspected: you can’t define the terms you use. In engineering and science, it is expected of everyone that they be able to define their terms. Like DougS says, you are still trying to learn the A, B, Cs of wind energy.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:26 AM
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Peter,

I rely on standard or casual usage by third parties like Wikipedia and aeronautical engineers.

You just tend to claim "nonsense" if I do otherwise.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26704	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

The topic here is DS as a subset of DL, not as claimed by Doug.

"The topic" was extracting energy from the wind, converting it to electricity, using no tower, as of 12 years ago.

My most basic comment on "DS" is it has always stood for "Doug Selsam".

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26705	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Peter,

Rely on Wikipedia and the other sources provided you. Its Ok you do not accept my DS statements, just go with sources you can accept.

No, Dave, you are just repeating your error. You don’t understand DS.

PeterS

Great Source JoeF. Should help PeterS with his issues concerning DS low altitude and "blocking (only)" definition. This text jumped out-

Peter's Cyclokite similarly flies very low, where he claims wind gradient hurts his performance.

PeterS, keep and open mind about whether we can prove to you anything. We have not given up so fast, but continue to offer you evidence.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26706	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Phase time is real time. As each blade passes thru direct headwind phase, its not making power; that's lost time compared to the phase cycle of a HAWT, for comparison.

Don't expect diagrams from those whose efforts you do not credit. We credit your efforts.

No, Dave, you are wrong again. VAWT blades do not lose “time” in a headwind and downwind phase states. Show me your diagram. What you are saying does not seem to correlate with reality.

PeterS

Like Reeling AWES wings, classic VAWT motion requires blade mass to lose time in headwind and downwind phase-states. AWES and HAWT design options include pure crosswind travel modes.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎07‎:‎03‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26707	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Its accepted practice to define one's technical terms by reference to a standard dictionary. Allow me that virtue.

The topic here is DS as a subset of DL, not as claimed by Doug..

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎58‎:‎30‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

"The topic" was extracting energy from the wind, converting it to electricity, using no tower, as of 12 years ago.

My most basic comment on "DS" is it has always stood for "Doug Selsam".

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26708	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

DougS,

This morning I went to put on my shoes and discovered that DaveS had lifted the lifts from my shoes and called it dynamic soaring as he flew out the door.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:31 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26709	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Where this topic is leading is a closer look at "WECS" as a term of art. The novel bit here is that we are identifying an overlooked class of devices to take wind and convert it in ways not yet classified.

Now up-conversion is found plausible, without violating thermodynamics. A parcel of wind can be removed from a wind field, causing the remaining wind to accelerate into the breech. That parcel can be itself accelerated into a plasma beam, as a dramatic starting example. Yes it takes a net energy loss to create these WECS and meet JoeF's challenge here, but the basic insight is sound.

Doug raises a good point in wishing "extraction" be the topic. Lets now define WEES for extraction cases, and explore the relation to WECS. Readers should be patient with the natural pace of discovering and sorting knowledge, that takes fully as long as needed.

Doug, be patient. See if we don't circle back on some real insight in AWE. Often we do.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎49‎:‎35‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Dear daveS: The idea that the wind is slowed when extracting kinetic energy from the wind is long-recognized.

One more first-grade concept. After 12 years of supposed wind energy research? And you're still trying to figure out the ABC's? Really?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26710	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

No Peter, that does not meet the criteria of the Wikipedia DS article. Can't we all agree WP's a proper source? I cite them fairly. That's poor cause for mocking.

DougS,

This morning I went to put on my shoes and discovered that DaveS had lifted the lifts from my shoes and called it dynamic soaring as he flew out the door.

PeterS

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26711	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Attachments :

JoeF,

Yes. I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS. In fact, it functions in a manner that is substantially the opposite of the way that a DS glider functions.

A DS glider absolutely requires a large difference in wind speed between the top and bottom of its orbit. The Cyclo-Kite does not. It works normally when there is no wind gradient. Place a DS glider in a context where there is no wind gradient, and it fails to function at all. So clearly, the two devices are not based on the same principle.

Since you are asking if “some DS is occurring”, I assume that you can clearly define DS. Please do so, so that I can be sure I know what you are talking about.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:40 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Has a proof been put up on the table that the beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26712	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

DaveS,

I have explained Active Lift many times, so you must have simply ignored what I said. I think that the concept is too difficult for you to understand. It requires dealing with relative motions, and that is something you can’t do very well at all.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:42 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Sorry PeterS,

The Active Lift concept does not seem well defined, but the hardware is. Yes, we look at hardware closely, and will be patient for the pure concept to be better defined.

Define yourself if you can.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎27‎:‎10‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26713	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Attachments :

Hi DougS, Thanks for the good laugh.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:49 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: If not, then not

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26714	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Hi PeterS,

You wrote: "The key to understanding the ALT is, in my opinion, to see that the blades do move downwind, but only relative to the upwind gear, not to the central axis of the VAWT."

You seem to be ignoring I mentioned several times the central axis xx' (tangential force) and the upwind axis yy' (lift force). Note that both axis are within the stationary wheel in the last patent (see the figure 1), yy' being in its center, xx' being in the center of the turbine.

Concerning the technical means: I don't know how the same wheel can transmit two specific (lift and tangential) forces in two axis from the same blades.

Concerning the ALT principle: at least a simulation is required in order to validate ALT claims.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26715	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

DaveS, You are saying things that make no sense. DS is not a subset of DL. If you insist it is, then define your terms and show the subset you are talking about.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:09 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

The topic here is DS as a subset of DL, not as claimed by Doug..

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎58‎:‎30‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26716	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Attachments :

DaveS, I do go to the sources and they all indicate that you are wrong.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:12 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

Peter,

Rely on Wikipedia and the other sources provided you. Its Ok you do not accept my DS statements, just go with sources you can accept.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎00‎:‎39‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26717	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

JoeF asked for "proof...beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring."

Peter,

Are you claiming you have made the formal proof desired, to professional standard? I don't claim any proof, only make a prediction of DS.

JoeF,

Yes. I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS. In fact, it functions in a manner that is substantially the opposite of the way that a DS glider functions.

Since you are asking if “some DS is occurring”, I assume that you can clearly define DS. Please do so, so that I can be sure I know what you are talking about.

PeterS

Has a proof been put up on the table that the beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26718	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

JoeF wrote: "Has a proof been put up on the table that the beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring?"

Yes. A flying elephant is not a Cyclo-Turbine. So a flying elephant is DS. So DS doesn't work like a Cyclo-Turbine.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26719	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Wishing we could thank the happy mockers for a technical defense of confusing "extraction" with "conversion".

Hi DougS, Thanks for the good laugh.

PeterS

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26720	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

DaveS, I see. You are saying that a VAWT blade does not produce power when heading directly into the wind. And then you are saying that it does not use all of the time that it is rotating to produce power, which follows from your first observation. If that is what you are saying, you are correct. And welcome to VAWT kindergarten.

However, if you are implying that a VAWT produces less power than a VAWT due to that lost time producing power, you are incorrect. You don’t understand VAWT. A VAWT blade sweeps the swept area twice each revolution, while a HAWT blade sweeps the swept area only once per revolution. That creates some advantages. The available current evidence is that VAWT are more powerful than HAWT (see Adams and Chen who tested a cycloturbine VAWT with a Cp of .52). Furthermore, VAWT can make use of rotor tipping and paired counter-rotation, which together add up to a predicted (not yet demonstrated) 50% increase in power. So it may be possible to build a VAWT that achieves a power output that is equivalent to a Cp of .75 or more.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:16 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Phase time is real time. As each blade passes thru direct headwind phase, its not making power; that's lost time compared to the phase cycle of a HAWT, for comparison.

Don't expect diagrams from those whose efforts you do not credit. We credit your efforts.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎04‎:‎38‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26721	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

PeterS, Learn to live with what is written about DL without doing you any special favor. Had been less grumpy, your demands would be happily responded.

To give you a little perk, DL is any case of Lift not better classified as Static Lift, as defined by WP's categories.

DaveS, You are saying things that make no sense. DS is not a subset of DL. If you insist it is, then define your terms and show the subset you are talking about.

PeterS

The topic here is DS as a subset of DL, not as claimed by Doug..

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎58‎:‎30‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26722	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

No, DaveS, you are quite naïve. WP contains many errors. It serves as a good starting point, but it would be foolish to cite it as evidence, due to those errors. On DS, they seem to be accurate, if incomplete, since DS is quite complicated if one considers all of the variations.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:35 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

No Peter, that does not meet the criteria of the Wikipedia DS article. Can't we all agree WP's a proper source? I cite them fairly. That's poor cause for mocking.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎20‎:‎55‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26723	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

I agree with the DS sources, just don't see the personalized indications.

DaveS, I do go to the sources and they all indicate that you are wrong.

PeterS

Peter,

Rely on Wikipedia and the other sources provided you. Its Ok you do not accept my DS statements, just go with sources you can accept.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎00‎:‎39‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26724	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Of course my comments apply to VAWT blades, as stated. The losses do sum overall.

Just one of many reasons supposed for VAWT's not gaining ground in the commercial HAWT revolution.

However, if you are implying that a VAWT produces less power than a VAWT due to that lost time producing power, you are incorrect. You don’t understand VAWT. A VAWT blade sweeps the swept area twice each revolution, while a HAWT blade sweeps the swept area only once per revolution. That creates some advantages.. The available current evidence is that VAWT are more powerful than HAWT (see Adams and Chen who tested a cycloturbine VAWT with a Cp of .52). Furthermore, VAWT can make use of rotor tipping and paired counter-rotation, which together add up to a predicted (not yet demonstrated) 50% increase in power. So it may be possible to build a VAWT that achieves a power output that is equivalent to a Cp of .75 or more.

PeterS

Phase time is real time. As each blade passes thru direct headwind phase, its not making power; that's lost time compared to the phase cycle of a HAWT, for comparison.

Don't expect diagrams from those whose efforts you do not credit. We credit your efforts.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎04‎:‎38‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26725	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Pierre. You seem to concede no serious proof exists by offering mockery instead.

JoeF wrote: "Has a proof been put up on the table that the beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring?"

Yes. A flying elephant is not a Cyclo-Turbine. So a flying elephant is DS. So DS doesn't work like a Cyclo-Turbine.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26726	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

PeterS,

Its even shakier to suggest your own DS understanding is better than WP and the soaring pros. Its not to anyone else. What errors do you spot in WPDS?

We all make mistakes. DS is not your best subject. Dale Kramer is the top AWE DS expert.

PeterS

No Peter, that does not meet the criteria of the Wikipedia DS article. Can't we all agree WP's a proper source? I cite them fairly. That's poor cause for mocking.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎20‎:‎55‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26727	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

Hi PierreB,

I can’t figure out what you think that I ignored. Yes, you mentioned the two different axis. Yes, they are both located within the stationary wheel (central hub). I see that. I’m not ignoring it.

Please note that the tangential force of the blades is transferred to the slide on the support arm. The downwind pressure on the blade is transferred to the satellite gear. So the two forces transmit force to the central shaft in two different ways, not the same way.

Yes, simulations are needed and testing is needed. Absolutely. If you have ever developed a product to sell, you know that it can take a very long time because there are so many things to consider and to do. I read that industrial inventions average roughly 10 years to go through all of the stages from conception to sales.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:45 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Hi PeterS,

You wrote: "The key to understanding the ALT is, in my opinion, to see that the blades do move downwind, but only relative to the upwind gear, not to the central axis of the VAWT."

Concerning the technical means: I don't know how the same wheel can transmit two specific (lift and tangential) forces in two axis from the same blades.

Concerning the ALT principle: at least a simulation is required in order to validate ALT claims.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26728	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Attachments :

DaveS, You don’t understand how science works. I’ve shown clearly that DS is not involved. You have not shown how it is involved, yet you claim that it is. The burden of proof is on you, not me. And you have offered no proof whatsoever.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:04 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

JoeF asked for "proof...beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring."

Peter,

Are you claiming you have made the formal proof desired, to professional standard? I don't claim any proof, only make a prediction of DS.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎46‎:‎57‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26729	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

DaveS, Again, no evidence.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:15 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

PeterS, Learn to live with what is written about DL without doing you any special favor. Had been less grumpy, your demands would be happily responded.

To give you a little perk, DL is any case of Lift not better classified as Static Lift, as defined by WP's categories.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎59‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26730	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Attachments :

DaveS, You are being simple minded again. You actually expect WP to explain to you why you are wrong about DS. What WP shows is a lack of any connection between DS and the Cyclo-Kite.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:20 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

I agree with the DS sources, just don't see the personalized indications.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎59‎:‎15‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26731	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

A 2-bladed H-A rotor sweeps its area twice with every rotation.

A 3-bladed rotor, 3 times.

A farm windmill, 22 times.

Does not matter - a good broom can sweep the floor in one sweeping session, however any bristles it takes.

Tilting a V-A machine increases its swept area, therefore even if more power is measured in a tilted state, does not increase power per unit swept area, and so does not increase Cp.

Let's imagine a V-A turbine can make more power per unit swept area than an H-A machine.

But if it takes 3 times the material, costs 3 times as much, and wears out 3 times faster (overly optimistic - probably wears out more like 10 times faster), and must be spaced out more in a windfarm thanks to slowing the wind more, where is the advantage?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@... filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 #ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101 p.ygrps-yiv-1472439130ygrps-yiv-925545101MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1472439130 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PeterS

Phase time is real time. As each blade passes thru direct headwind phase, its not making power; that's lost time compared to the phase cycle of a HAWT, for comparison.

Don't expect diagrams from those whose efforts you do not credit. We credit your efforts.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎04‎:‎38‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26732	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

PeterS,

I am a scholar of science, and understand accordingly. Science works slowly and carerfully by testing peer claims against third-party peer replication and validated theory. Science is not about accepting at face value what you or I write.

We have registered your science claims here on the record. Let time prove your ideas true or false, point-by-point, under scientific community standards, over many years. Those you insult cannot be depended on for that.

PeterS

JoeF asked for "proof....beach-video Cyclo-Kite does not have some DS ocurring."

Peter,

Are you claiming you have made the formal proof desired, to professional standard? I don't claim any proof, only make a prediction of DS.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎46‎:‎57‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26733	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

DaveS, VAWT actually are gaining ground. But there are many kinds of VAWT, and most of them are inherently limited by dynamic stall, a narrow and peaked Cp curve, and a low Cp max.

Progress is very slow. There are multiple reasons for that.

As for “the losses do sum overall”, you are wrong. I just gave you evidence that you are wrong and you deliberately ignored it.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:24 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Of course my comments apply to VAWT blades, as stated. The losses do sum overall.

Just one of many reasons supposed for VAWT's not gaining ground in the commercial HAWT revolution.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎13‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26734	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Attachments :

DaveS, Since you can’t even define DS, you are not one to give advice.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:30 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

PeterS,

Its even shakier to suggest your own DS understanding is better than WP and the soaring pros. Its not to anyone else. What errors do you spot in WPDS?

We all make mistakes. DS is not your best subject. Dale Kramer is the top AWE DS expert.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎19‎:‎19‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26735	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

PeterS, Just be patient. We will continue presenting evidence. Its not a deadline you can set.

DaveS, Again, no evidence.

PeterS

PeterS, Learn to live with what is written about DL without doing you any special favor. Had been less grumpy, your demands would be happily responded.

To give you a little perk, DL is any case of Lift not better classified as Static Lift, as defined by WP's categories.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎59‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26736	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

No I don't expect WP to prove me wrong about DS. As it stands, I agree with WP.

DaveS, You are being simple minded again. You actually expect WP to explain to you why you are wrong about DS. What WP shows is a lack of any connection between DS and the Cyclo-Kite.

PeterS

I agree with the DS sources, just don't see the personalized indications.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎59‎:‎15‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26737	From: dave santos	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

The world wants to see VAWTs beat HAWTs by lower LCOE at utility-scale. Any data in that regard is helpful.

DaveS, VAWT actually are gaining ground. But there are many kinds of VAWT, and most of them are inherently limited by dynamic stall, a narrow and peaked Cp curve, and a low Cp max.

Progress is very slow. There are multiple reasons for that.

As for “the losses do sum overall”, you are wrong. I just gave you evidence that you are wrong and you deliberately ignored it.

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups..com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:24 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Of course my comments apply to VAWT blades, as stated. The losses do sum overall.

Just one of many reasons supposed for VAWT's not gaining ground in the commercial HAWT revolution.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎13‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26738	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

I am serious. As an elephant is large, there is wind gradient between his ears and his paws.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26739	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Hi PeterS,

Some details:

"Please note that the tangential force of the blades is transferred to the slide on the support arm" then the central axis (central shaft) xx'.

"The downwind pressure on the blade is transferred to the satellite gear" then the axis yy'. Both axis are in the stationary wheel.

"So the two forces transmit force to the central shaft in two different ways, not the same way." Not exactly as the lift force goes to the axis yy', and the tangential force goes to the central shaft (central axis xx').

How the stationary wheel can transmit the lift force by yy' towards a generator, and the tangential force by xx' towards another generator, both forces coming from the same blade?