Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 26440 to 26489 Page 420 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26440 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26441 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Shock and Awe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26442 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26443 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26444 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26445 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26446 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26447 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26448 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26449 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26450 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26451 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26452 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: eWind Review censored on New Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26453 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26454 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26455 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26456 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26457 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: HAWT or skewed rotating blade piezoelectricity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26458 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26459 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: eWind Review censored on New Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26460 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: More Evidence from the Twilight Zone- Texas claims First in Mystery

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26461 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26462 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26463 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26464 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26465 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26466 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26467 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26468 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26469 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26470 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26471 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26472 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26473 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26474 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26475 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26476 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26477 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26478 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26479 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26480 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26481 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26482 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26483 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26484 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26485 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26486 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26487 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26488 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26489 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26440 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
Attachments :

    DaveS,

    You give no indication of what it is that you are responding to, so I have to guess. If I’m right about what you are responding to, then what you said is wrong.

    The Bird Windmill (Cyclo-Kite on a tower) does not slow down in response to an increased load. The pumping frequency remains the same. What changes is that the length of the pumping stroke decreases.

    If that doesn’t speak to what you had in mind, then please be more clear.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 8:12 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

     

     

    The equivalent effect with a pumping load is a slower oscillation, as the proxy for TSR. The original TSR note remains valid in it's context. Shorting the electrical load remains a useful test.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26441 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Shock and Awe
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVu844ZcCdU  

    Note: Three hour video

    The Story of Electricity Full Episode

    ============================================

    Someday a revision of the video may be due:
    Shock and AWE
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26442 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Peter, even if it is a breakthrough in torque for VAWTs, that is not an AWE breakthrough, that's all we have to remember, since this is an AWE forum. We will know when something like is a breakthrough in AWE.

    High torque is like power kite "grunt". HAWTs add torque by more blades, we all know. Extra HAWT blades are not new added mechanical degrees-of-freedom, like the Active Lift VAWT, which seems to add 9 DOF by my count, maybe more, the versions are a mechanical riot. How well does all that gearing start? The friction adds up.

    As for ideal blade trim in all non-linear phases and wind velocities, the set linkage geometry of the blades is hard to justify as optimal if its been just a conceptual design.

    I would bet the Looping Arch is more of a breakthrough in VAWTs than Active Lift. Looping Arch is still not great for AWE due to the mass-velocity issue, but what a cool wing!



     

    DaveS,

    I do consider the Active Lift Turbine to be a “breakthrough” because it a new way to increase the torque of a VAWT. The evidence for that breakthrough has been presented. And research is continuing. If you dispute it, then be specific about where there is an error. So far, you have provided nothing.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:33 AM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

     

     

    No, you seem unaware that two separate effects can follow from the same energy-conservation-related fallacy. No one thinks that the Active Lift VAWT is a PMM; not you, Doug, or me.

     

    Try and prove the claimed "breakthrough" is real first. You made the claim.

     

    On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎41‎:‎30‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26443 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

    Hi Peter,

     

    Thanks for the explains. So a tail vane is needed. WO2016207574A1 Page 8 (translation from French language,):

    "A tail vane 11 centered on the x,x' axis of the turbine allows the stationary wheel 3 to be correctly positioned against the hydraulic fluid."

    I don't understand it. Is it because of wind direction changes?

    And why a hydraulic installation and not directly a generator? Thanks.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26444 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
    Peter, this seems to go for years. We are normally only talking about airborne WECS here, as is expected, and then you constantly refer to tower facts, or think we are somehow talking about towers, not just flight flight flight.

    Expect confusion then, and don't get impatient when it happens. Try to understand the fundamental engineering differences between something bolted on a pole and some flying way up high. We are doing the flying thing here. Help, don't distract. Make an active turbine work in the sky.

    You seem to gloss over the kite lift and kite operational requirements of your turbines in flight. To us these are critical engineering challenges, and the WECS is a feature, not the whole. Our primary COTS TRL9 model is the power kite, and its numbers. The power kite does lift and power. Its not rhetorical that we will compare it with all novel comers by the numbers. Emotional impatient language is the rhetorical part here.



     

    DaveS,

    You give no indication of what it is that you are responding to, so I have to guess. If I’m right about what you are responding to, then what you said is wrong.

    The Bird Windmill (Cyclo-Kite on a tower) does not slow down in response to an increased load. The pumping frequency remains the same. What changes is that the length of the pumping stroke decreases.

    If that doesn’t speak to what you had in mind, then please be more clear.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 8:12 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

     

     

    The equivalent effect with a pumping load is a slower oscillation, as the proxy for TSR. The original TSR note remains valid in it's context. Shorting the electrical load remains a useful test.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26445 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
    DaveS,

    Please imagine a kite version of the Active Lift Turbine allowing to implement your "short strokes" schema, and perhaps still better, using an internal mechanism in the ground station, allowing to produce torque while the power figure of the kite is quasi stationary.  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26446 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Just to clarify that its proper here to always answer sincere technical questions, even if condemned as "rhetorical". That's a common anti-intellectual sentiment. In fact Rhetoric is long respectable as such. We count on the best rhetoric to prevail in AWE.

    Wikipedia_

    "

    Rhetoric[a] is the art of persuasion. Along with grammar and logic (or dialectic – see Martianus Capella), it is one of the three ancient arts of discourse. Rhetoric aims to study the capacities of writers or speakers needed to inform, persuade, or motivate particular audiences in specific situations.[5] Aristotle defines rhetoric as "the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion" and since mastery of the art was necessary for victory in a case at law or for passage of proposals in the assembly or for fame as a speaker in civic ceremonies, calls it "a combination of the science of logic and of the ethical branch of politics".[6] Rhetoric typically provides heuristics for understanding, discovering, and developing arguments for particular situations, such as Aristotle's three persuasive audience appeals: logos, pathos, and ethos. The five canons of rhetoric or phases of developing a persuasive speech were first codified in classical Rome: invention, arrangement, style, memory, and delivery.

    From Ancient Greece to the late 19th century, rhetoric played a central role in Western education in training orators, lawyers, counsellors, historians, statesmen, and poets.[7][8]




     

    Hi Peter,

     

    Thanks for the explains. So a tail vane is needed. WO2016207574A1 Page 8 (translation from French language,):

    "A tail vane 11 centered on the x,x' axis of the turbine allows the stationary wheel 3 to be correctly positioned against the hydraulic fluid."

    I don't understand it. Is it because of wind direction changes?

    And why a hydraulic installation and not directly a generator? Thanks.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26447 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
    Its easy to imagine as novelty AWES. Go ahead and build one.



     

    DaveS,


    Please imagine a kite version of the Active Lift Turbine allowing to implement your "short strokes" schema, and perhaps still better, using an internal mechanism in the ground station, allowing to produce torque while the power figure of the kite is quasi stationary.  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26448 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag
    Breaking out interesting questions from the VAWT topics.


    JoeF mentioned Lift without Drag, and PeterS claimed there is not such thing. I listed several cases. PeterS claimed they were not aerodynamic lift.

    In fact, except for the aerostatic case, vertical rising air and vertical rocket thrust are special aerodynamic lift cases with no normal drag component required. A drogue rising straight up in a column of air, that's lift. Oddly, the drogue force becomes pure lift in this case. In the rocket case, vertical thrust becomes pure aerodynamic lift. Aerodynamic Lift is pressure difference between upper and lower parts or sides of an aircraft, whatever the outer form takes, like a latex balloon shooting air downward. Airfoils are just the most common case discussed.

    We do make mistakes in aerodynamics, but not many, and this is not one of them.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26449 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    A tail to establish the wind direction.  Normally the very first move for someone trying to "rescue" the vertical-axis concept is to throw away the main stated (only?) advantage, which is not needing to be aimed, dding a tail so you can staart to try to untangle the crusterfluck you have to start with.  Reminds me of the saying "Why do people get married?  So they can have sex anytime they want.  Why do people get divorced?  Same reason."  Or there is the old "We had to destroy the village to save it." (destroy the lack of need to aim, to rescue the non-aiming turbine design...)
    Do you guys realize that to answer this question of:
    "Does this complicated set of add-on features increase the power output of a vertical-axis turbine?"
    Is kind of like
    "If we add certain new words for a prayer, can it increase the effectiveness of praying?"
    Well, that one would be difficult to get to the bottom of, since you'd be in a situation where the answer would probably be a bunch of conditional rationalizations and shifting word definitions a la JoeF.
    BUT
    What is being discussed is a specific configuration for a vertical-axis turbine.
    That is a physical configuration, not a prayer.  This COULD BE TESTED.
    One way to ANSWER the question would be to build two similar vertical-axis turbines and compare output in the same wind.  You could use one turbine and take data then modify it then take data again and compare.
    But none of you ever will.  None of you will ever build a vertical-xis wind turbine at all.  I mean a real one, not  a paper and string toy model using with no generator.  You don't even necessarily need to build one, there are probably a few available for free if you remove them.  But none of you will ever do that either.
    Why?
    Because they are a waste of time and any slight increase in power would still not eliminate the known problems, which include:
    1) Needing to sweep 3.14 times the intercepted area
    2) Slower speed requiring more solidity = more blade material
    3) lower aerodynamic efficiency per unit swept area
    4) forces on blades perpendicular to length - requires much stronger blades
    5) forces on blades reversing twice per rotation - beats up blades instead of beating betz
    6) add, for most such ideas "it now needs to aim" which eliminates its supposed main advantage.

    So I would say, why keep talking about something that nobody, probably including the people who thought this idea up, will ever bother to build?
    In wind energy, there are a million wrong roads to go down.
    Why waste your energy and time on nothingness?
    Now you may say "No this is really something new and it will work!"
    Well if it did somehow capture more energy, it would probably have about 5 new things to go wrong too, and the extra energy, if there, might be just an artifact of slightly increasing average diameter.  Which would be more easily done by just slightly increasing the diameter.
    I mean, if building an actual electricity-generating version of just a simple "bird windmill" is never gonna happen, why pretend for even a moment that anyone is ever going to bother building one of these?  Are you going to start ordering gears this week?  Come on. Get real or get lost.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26450 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
    DaveS,

    You should build an Active Lift Turbine Kite as you advocate "short strokes".
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26451 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
    You don't want to build one either because it obviously sucks as a kite idea. I don't have time, and don't see the active lift principle adding anything. Instead I have tested the Prism Flip Kite as a more practical small short-stroke WECS. It has one moving part and quite a kick.

    Short-stroke AWE at large scale is another matter. It tends to consist of one sweep pattern cycle with recovery phase, rather than many pattern cycles with one long recovery phase (long reeling). I do large-scale short stroke with power kites, to try and beat any freak-turbine.

    Of course it would be kitemarish to try to build and fly a large rigid active lift turbine, given kite scaling laws.





     

    DaveS,


    You should build an Active Lift Turbine Kite as you advocate "short strokes".
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26452 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: eWind Review censored on New Forum
    This forum did not censor the item.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26453 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Nice post by Doug, but there is a place for VAWTs, in education. With kids in schools and museums, I made countless savonius VAWTs from soda bottles and swivels decades ago. True, those were not electrical. We made electrical HAWTs from beer cans and tape recorder motors to light LEDs Some flew from kites and balloons. Kids should be encouraged to make both HAWTs and VAWTs, and learn what they will.

    The ST itself is a VAWT to the geometric degree it aims up. One patent drawing even shows a savonius turbine at the bottom of the ST. No one should discourage such playing with ideas, good and bad.





     

    A tail to establish the wind direction.  Normally the very first move for someone trying to "rescue" the vertical-axis concept is to throw away the main stated (only?) advantage, which is not needing to be aimed, dding a tail so you can staart to try to untangle the crusterfluck you have to start with.  Reminds me of the saying "Why do people get married?  So they can have sex anytime they want.  Why do people get divorced?  Same reason."  Or there is the old "We had to destroy the village to save it." (destroy the lack of need to aim, to rescue the non-aiming turbine design...)
    Do you guys realize that to answer this question of:
    "Does this complicated set of add-on features increase the power output of a vertical-axis turbine?"
    Is kind of like
    "If we add certain new words for a prayer, can it increase the effectiveness of praying?"
    Well, that one would be difficult to get to the bottom of, since you'd be in a situation where the answer would probably be a bunch of conditional rationalizations and shifting word definitions a la JoeF.
    BUT
    What is being discussed is a specific configuration for a vertical-axis turbine.
    That is a physical configuration, not a prayer.  This COULD BE TESTED.
    One way to ANSWER the question would be to build two similar vertical-axis turbines and compare output in the same wind.  You could use one turbine and take data then modify it then take data again and compare.
    But none of you ever will.  None of you will ever build a vertical-xis wind turbine at all.  I mean a real one, not  a paper and string toy model using with no generator.  You don't even necessarily need to build one, there are probably a few available for free if you remove them.  But none of you will ever do that either.
    Why?
    Because they are a waste of time and any slight increase in power would still not eliminate the known problems, which include:
    1) Needing to sweep 3.14 times the intercepted area
    2) Slower speed requiring more solidity = more blade material
    3) lower aerodynamic efficiency per unit swept area
    4) forces on blades perpendicular to length - requires much stronger blades
    5) forces on blades reversing twice per rotation - beats up blades instead of beating betz
    6) add, for most such ideas "it now needs to aim" which eliminates its supposed main advantage.

    So I would say, why keep talking about something that nobody, probably including the people who thought this idea up, will ever bother to build?
    In wind energy, there are a million wrong roads to go down.
    Why waste your energy and time on nothingness?
    Now you may say "No this is really something new and it will work!"
    Well if it did somehow capture more energy, it would probably have about 5 new things to go wrong too, and the extra energy, if there, might be just an artifact of slightly increasing average diameter.  Which would be more easily done by just slightly increasing the diameter.
    I mean, if building an actual electricity-generating version of just a simple "bird windmill" is never gonna happen, why pretend for even a moment that anyone is ever going to bother building one of these?  Are you going to start ordering gears this week?  Come on. Get real or get lost.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26454 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Peter, 
       DaveS used "aerospace lift without drag"   and refrained from using "aerodynamic lift" in his comment. 
    DaveS knows well about induced drag from airfoil aerodynamic lift. 
    Easy does it, 
    Best, 
     JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26455 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Points of Sailing
    Probably simply using one of the alternate connotations of "ballistic"   ... not existential equivalence to "electron" ...    
    We have ballistic parachutes on some hang gliders.   BRS chutes.  The emphasis is not on parabolic path projectile, but rather just on the sudden explosive releasing.    
    Easy does it, pehaps. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26456 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    "your criticism is meaningless."   Patience, perhaps; maybe someone will see some meaning in some aspect of the criticism. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26457 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: HAWT or skewed rotating blade piezoelectricity
    Sans p cells the worked blades put some of the strains into heat already; consider extreme idealized blade without such heat loss; Betz limit at the ideal; then add the real imperfect material realm; PV or piezoe, etc would be carving out from the ideal scene.  Thus: no beat Betz.  Trade the heat in part with electricity; either way power (heat or electricity) won't beat Betz. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26458 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Is not the rotor pressure from lift and drag?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26459 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: eWind Review censored on New Forum
    Good if true enough. 

    What I saw was the item was purged from its topic and sent to a Moderation topic, which is the censoring of context. One would have to hunt it down deep in the Moderation queue. I am not even sure that is a public thread, and its sure not the place to send away technical posts. The vertical-keel-forward omission was the key idea, and the rest related details, like how such a design exists.

    Another confounding New Forum factor is Moderation popping posts up and down here and there. There are also levels of access based on statistical "trust". Its hard to tell who has access sometimes. I know there is a lot I can't see, or that I can see but others not. Some where there is a line where playing a shell-game with posts has the same general effect as outright censorship. I have been experiencing that on the New Forum.

    I hope to see the post restored as written before thinking "all clear". Part of the story is my long relation with eWind in the NW as a very evasive player as the public funding poured in. Hoping to fly off the best of the NW Open AWE against their in-house model. Another factor is the intrusive anonymous authority of Windy Skies. That has me off-balance, pushing-back, on principle. The charge of censorship applies broadly to Windy Skies moderation. Many topics have been moved somewhere. Even stored somewhere, that's not the same as leaving content where the authors contributed. The Net breaks when editing mucks up.

     


     



     

    This forum did not censor the item.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26460 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: More Evidence from the Twilight Zone- Texas claims First in Mystery
    Looking for TUD-crash news, very quiet at top of search, then this showed up; a very odd webpage on several counts, even as an obvious send-up by rural Texas third-parties last year, more evidence that AWE is creeping deeply into the neurons of public awareness-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26461 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    OK let's realize the whole "vertical" naming convention is limited.
    Starting with the wind usually understood as being horizontal, on flat ground, you have two original directions for an axis, horizontal and vertical.  You CAN orient a cross-axis machine horizontally, but, again, you give up the "advantage" of no need to aim, so few people tried it. 

    Let's not pretend I said kids should never try building demo toys from soda cans.  As usual, you are mischaracterizing what I said, trying to re-form it onto something "wrong" so you can "argue" with it.

    What I am saying, specifically, is you guys are a bunch of do-nothing nincompoops.  OK?  Got that?  Hope I spelled it right.  After all, we need to make sure our terminology is accurate.  As a start.

    The next thing is, Darrieus machines thusfar have proven to be a waste of time, and the modifications suggested would not solve the known problems, but would probably make them worse or introduce new problems.  Like all those gears costing too much, weighing too much, and wearing out, as just one teeny example.

    The fact that my patents include various axes and types of turbines is just to be inclusive, and cover the bases, not leaving anything out.  Sure it's possible we might use them at some point, but so far it has not happened.

    None of you are ever going to build anything useful, not even close, rather you are happy posting nonsense on here like 20 times a day, so why keep talking about some COMPLICATED 100 mph configuration neither you nor anyone else is ever going to bother building, just so you could find out the bad news that it too SUCKS?

    When you can't even bother to build even the simplest designs.  2-second videos of something shaking, or prototypes using paper and no generator are not going to revolutionize wind energy.  You need to steop t up just a notch or two.  Everything you guys are talking about is just a bunch of crap.  No, nobody is going to build a flying version of a turbine proven to suck even if you "rescue" the design by some fraction, it will still be a design space that sucks.  Sure add a bunch of gears, pivots, and connecting rods to an already-too-heavy concept and it will fly easily, right?  Nobody is ever going to build even a tower-mounted version of this silly idea.  You nor anyone else will ever do anything about it, so this entire topic is just retardedness. 

    By the time you get to the Piezoelectric-hail-mary-extreme-desperation-in-wind-energy-super-crap, it's "game over", and you might as well just put thin-film solar panels on your kite and pretend it is some perversion of wind energy, or surrender unconditionally to the wind goddess and convert your AWE project into a wifi "Supertower" or find some other way to "just give up" while pretending to be continuing your effort never acknowledging the entire thing was a charade all along.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26462 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Attachments :

      Hi PierreB,

      As far as I can tell, using hydraulic cylinders is just another way to make use of Active Lift. Each blade compresses a double acting cylinder.

      Many VAWT cycloturbines use a tail vane to orient their blade pitching mechanism. Some cycloturbines, such as mine, don’t need a tail vane. The ALT needs a tail vane because they must keep the stationary gear upwind of the central axis. The wind is always changing direction (and speed). So a tail vane can keep the mechanism oriented toward the wind.

      PeterS

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 12:56 PM
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

       

       

      Hi Peter,

       

      Thanks for the explains. So a tail vane is needed. WO2016207574A1 Page 8 (translation from French language,):

      "A tail vane 11 centered on the x,x' axis of the turbine allows the stationary wheel 3 to be correctly positioned against the hydraulic fluid."

      I don't understand it. Is it because of wind direction changes?

      And why a hydraulic installation and not directly a generator? Thanks.

       

      PierreB

       

       

       

       
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26463 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
      To an Aerospace-Meteorologist at the North Pole, North Wind at the Equator is pure Vertical Lift, almost limitless in quantity. If that Lift is "Active", I suppose that must be even better.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26464 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
      Correction: "Aerospace-Meteorologist at the SOUTH POLE". I warned you about the mistakes.



      To an Aerospace-Meteorologist at the North Pole, North Wind at the Equator is pure Vertical Lift, almost limitless in quantity. If that Lift is "Active", I suppose that must be even better.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26465 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
      Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
      Attachments :

        DaveS,

        I’m trying to explain a new principle that might be applied to power kites. You don’t like the principle because you assume that it can’t be applied to power kites. But you don’t know that. You don’t understand the principle. So all you are saying is that you don’t know how to make use of it. Well, nobody does, yet. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

        You criticize me for “glossing over”. Quote me. Or, if you prefer, state what I said that I should have discussed in more depth and ask me to discuss it in more depth. Otherwise, stop being so obtuse.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:00 PM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

         

         

        Peter, this seems to go for years. We are normally only talking about airborne WECS here, as is expected, and then you constantly refer to tower facts, or think we are somehow talking about towers, not just flight flight flight.

         

        Expect confusion then, and don't get impatient when it happens. Try to understand the fundamental engineering differences between something bolted on a pole and some flying way up high. We are doing the flying thing here. Help, don't distract. Make an active turbine work in the sky.

         

        You seem to gloss over the kite lift and kite operational requirements of your turbines in flight. To us these are critical engineering challenges, and the WECS is a feature, not the whole. Our primary COTS TRL9 model is the power kite, and its numbers. The power kite does lift and power. Its not rhetorical that we will compare it with all novel comers by the numbers. Emotional impatient language is the rhetorical part here.

         

        On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎02‎:‎26‎:‎56‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26466 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

        "No, nobody is going to build a flying version of a turbine proven to suck even if you "rescue" the design by some fraction".

        How many times we should explain the principle is envisaged for kites, not to fly a VAWT.

        Doug you discuss too often with (or against) DaveS.

         

         

         

         
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26467 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
        Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag
        Attachments :

          DaveS,

          Your physics is so weak that you don’t know when you are wrong. Repeating your false claims won’t make them true.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:44 PM
          To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26468 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

          The correction makes I thought the first statement was not relevant and the second not appropriate. But now I think the reverse. Thanks for the correction.

           

           

           

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26469 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
          Ok, lets not gloss-over how Active Lift can specifically improve Power Kites. I admit I have no idea, since active lift looks like a wash. Go ahead and explain how.

          To me the power kite is relatively perfect after decades and millions of units. de Exupery defined perfection as "nothing left to take away". That's KIS. 

          How can adding active lift help such a divine wing?



           

          DaveS,

          I’m trying to explain a new principle that might be applied to power kites. You don’t like the principle because you assume that it can’t be applied to power kites. But you don’t know that. You don’t understand the principle. So all you are saying is that you don’t know how to make use of it. Well, nobody does, yet. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

          You criticize me for “glossing over”. Quote me. Or, if you prefer, state what I said that I should have discussed in more depth and ask me to discuss it in more depth. Otherwise, stop being so obtuse.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:00 PM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

           

           

          Peter, this seems to go for years. We are normally only talking about airborne WECS here, as is expected, and then you constantly refer to tower facts, or think we are somehow talking about towers, not just flight flight flight.

           

          Expect confusion then, and don't get impatient when it happens. Try to understand the fundamental engineering differences between something bolted on a pole and some flying way up high. We are doing the flying thing here. Help, don't distract. Make an active turbine work in the sky.

           

          You seem to gloss over the kite lift and kite operational requirements of your turbines in flight. To us these are critical engineering challenges, and the WECS is a feature, not the whole. Our primary COTS TRL9 model is the power kite, and its numbers. The power kite does lift and power. Its not rhetorical that we will compare it with all novel comers by the numbers. Emotional impatient language is the rhetorical part here.

           

          On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎02‎:‎26‎:‎56‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups..com

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26470 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

          Hi PeterS,

           

          Thanks for these explains. 

           

          PierreB

           

           

           

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26471 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag
          Nobody automatically knows when they are wrong in Physics, even Newton and Einstein.



           

          DaveS,

          Your physics is so weak that you don’t know when you are wrong. Repeating your false claims won’t make them true.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:44 PM
          To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26472 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?
          Heh, heh, PeterS got me, I had to look. 

          "Active Lift" does not appear in NASA's Aerospace Dictionary. Its not a widely recognized term with a standard definition. The people who claim to understand it are in their own world. The rest of us are stuck with the terms agreed on.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26473 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Attachments :

            JoeF,

            Easy does what? The examples he gave are wrong. And I explained why. If you disagree, please show me your evidence. DaveS merely repeated his incorrect claims. The subject was aerodynamic lift, not aerospace lift as for rockets. They are not the same at all. I assume that you know that.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:16 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            Peter, 

               DaveS used "aerospace lift without drag"   and refrained from using "aerodynamic lift" in his comment. 

            DaveS knows well about induced drag from airfoil aerodynamic lift. 

            Easy does it, 

            Best, 

             JoeF
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26474 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            This is lift as I use it and the NASA Dictionary also, plus rocket lift usage-

            lift (symbol L)
            1. That component of the total aerodynamic force acting on a body perpendicular to the undisturbed airflow relative to the body.
            2. To lift off, to take off in a vertical ascent. Said of a rocket vehicle. See lift-off.

            NASA does not bother to define "aerodynamic lift" as a compound term; its understood as my examples of Joe's assertion purport.

            PeterS has his own ideas what correct usage of these terms is.


             

            JoeF,

            Easy does what? The examples he gave are wrong. And I explained why. If you disagree, please show me your evidence. DaveS merely repeated his incorrect claims. The subject was aerodynamic lift, not aerospace lift as for rockets. They are not the same at all. I assume that you know that.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:16 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            Peter, 

               DaveS used "aerospace lift without drag"   and refrained from using "aerodynamic lift" in his comment. 

            DaveS knows well about induced drag from airfoil aerodynamic lift. 

            Easy does it, 

            Best, 

             JoeF
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26475 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
            Subject: Re: Points of Sailing
            Attachments :

              Hi JoeF,

              Easy does it, perhaps? DaveS described the top section of the orbit of the Cyclo-Kite as “ballistic”. So you are saying that he did not mean “a parabolic curve” but rather a “sudden explosive releasing”. That too seems entirely wrong and totally irrelevant to the Cyclo-Kite orbit. But if you insist that it is relevant, OK, please explain why.

              I see no point in constantly introducing meaningless quibbles over all of the possible uses of words and all of their possible alternative terms? All it does is muddy the waters and waste every one’s time having to wade through meaningless discussions of irrelevant trivia. A little more moderation would seem to be in order. Would you agree?

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:20 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [AWES] Points of Sailing

               

               

              Probably simply using one of the alternate connotations of "ballistic"   ... not existential equivalence to "electron" ...    

              We have ballistic parachutes on some hang gliders.   BRS chutes.  The emphasis is not on parabolic path projectile, but rather just on the sudden explosive releasing.    

              Easy does it, pehaps. 

               
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26476 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Attachments :

                Hi JoeF,

                Or perhaps, due to my pointing it out, it will eventually become apparent that DaveS spouts an endless stream of meaningless and/or misleading statements. I wouldn’t expect him to notice because he just ignores contrary evidence. But you might. So I’m patiently waiting for you to notice. Or at least maybe someone will see some meaning in some aspect of my criticisms of his criticisms.

                If I understand you correctly, you would like me to be patient (meaning not respond with contrary evidence) when DaveS makes meaningless and/or misleading statements. If that is your request, I will comply.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:22 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                 

                 

                "your criticism is meaningless."   Patience, perhaps; maybe someone will see some meaning in some aspect of the criticism. 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26477 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
                Subject: Re: Points of Sailing
                I make no claims for a "cyclokite", only describing the looping arch as defined, built, and flown. If PeterS thinks they are the same, I'll take his word on it provisionally, but if my looping arch criteria do not fit, he may be missing some essential difference between the two.

                PeterS should be happy that the NASA dictionary can settle whose aerospace terminology usage here is most accurate, or provable nonsense.



                 

                Hi JoeF,

                Easy does it, perhaps? DaveS described the top section of the orbit of the Cyclo-Kite as “ballistic”. So you are saying that he did not mean “a parabolic curve” but rather a “sudden explosive releasing”. That too seems entirely wrong and totally irrelevant to the Cyclo-Kite orbit. But if you insist that it is relevant, OK, please explain why.

                I see no point in constantly introducing meaningless quibbles over all of the possible uses of words and all of their possible alternative terms? All it does is muddy the waters and waste every one’s time having to wade through meaningless discussions of irrelevant trivia. A little more moderation would seem to be in order. Would you agree?

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:20 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Points of Sailing

                 

                 

                Probably simply using one of the alternate connotations of "ballistic"   ... not existential equivalence to "electron" ...    

                We have ballistic parachutes on some hang gliders.   BRS chutes.  The emphasis is not on parabolic path projectile, but rather just on the sudden explosive releasing.    

                Easy does it, pehaps. 

                 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26478 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
                Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

                When he does know he was wrong he still won't admit it.  And it doesn't need to be complicated or "physics"-related.  He still can't even admit he never had his AWE-powered concert so many years ago, nor can he admit Altaeros did not follow through on their stated powering of a remote village in Alaska.  So you've got two problems:
                1) Can he understand what you are saying?
                2) Will he admit when he is wrong?
                Often the answer to both is "no", but again, you could not ask him and get an answer.
                He prefers to dodge any issue that does not reflect "glory" on his part.
                By the way daveS, a drogue rising on an updraft is not "lift" as defined in aerodynamics, which you recently claimed to have such vast knowledge of, but pure drag.  Just because something is overcoming the weakest force in "weak" physics (gravity) does not mean aerodynamic "lift" is at work.  Nor does a rocket going straight up use aerodynamic "lift" as the term is used in aviation, but instead it could be best described as "thrust", "pressure" or newtonian action-reaction.  What you are doing is a JoeF-type attempt to change the meaning of a word already in play as having a certain meaning, in mid-conversation.  "Lift" as used in aero studies (wings, airfoils) is still not even completely understood or explained.  But it is not the little-kid definition such as "lift" a weight using your hand.  It is vacuum on the upper or vacuum side of a moving anal-hair-foil.  Woops, I mean airfoil.  I think after many years of puzzling it thru my feeble brain, and slowly learning what works and doesn't work in airfoils, I believe I have an easy-to-understand true explanation, which I hope to explain in a video at some point.  Stay tuned - sorry for issuing "future news of my future supposed accomplishments" but isn't that what AWE is all about? Well except for kitewinder...

                ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@... filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 #ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677 p.ygrps-yiv-1235324158ygrps-yiv-1930010677MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1235324158 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                DaveS,

                Your physics is so weak that you don’t know when you are wrong. Repeating your false claims won’t make them true.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:44 PM
                To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26479 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                Attachments :

                  Hi JoeF,

                  Yes, rotor pressure is from lift and drag. But the blade drag is quite small and doesn’t not have much effect on the component lift vector of the blade that is directed inward (when upwind) and outward (when downwind). It is the blade lift that creates the rotor drag (rotor pressure). That’s why a 2-bladed VAWT will shake violently if the rotor drag pulses coincide with a natural frequency of the rotor/tower. Does that help to clarify?

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:30 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                   

                   

                  Is not the rotor pressure from lift and drag?
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26480 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                  Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
                  Attachments :

                    DaveS,

                    I already explained that, which means that you apparently “glossed over” what I said.

                    PeterS

                     

                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:08 PM
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

                     

                     

                    Ok, lets not gloss-over how Active Lift can specifically improve Power Kites. I admit I have no idea, since active lift looks like a wash. Go ahead and explain how.

                     

                    To me the power kite is relatively perfect after decades and millions of units. de Exupery defined perfection as "nothing left to take away". That's KIS. 

                     

                    How can adding active lift help such a divine wing?

                     

                    On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎01‎:‎15‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26481 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                    Attachments :

                      Hi PierreB,

                      And thank you for asking because it causes me to look closer to try to understand better. This, like many aspects of VAWT, is quite complicated.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:15 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                       

                       

                      Hi PeterS,

                       

                      Thanks for these explains. 

                       

                      PierreB

                       

                       

                       

                       
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26482 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                      Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?
                      Attachments :

                        DaveS,

                        I already explained that it is a coined term to help identify a new principle of VAWT. So you must have “glossed over” what I said.

                        New terms have to be invented to match new principles. I’ve coined many new terms to help clarify exactly what I am referring to. The terms serve as a shorthand way of referring to some phenomena. They could be described using existing terms, or existing mathematical formula, but that would become cumbersome. But it is important to be precise about the meaning so that the new word does not cause more confusion.

                        PeterS

                         

                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:22 PM
                        To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26483 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                        Attachments :

                          DaveS,

                          Their definition of “lift” is the one that I use. They are referring to aerodynamic lift. I am not away of any other kind of lift which fits that definition.

                          But because they list two ways to use the word “lift” does not mean that “lift” and “lift-off” mean the same thing. You believe that they mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably. That is nonsense.

                          PeterS

                           

                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:47 PM
                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                           

                           

                          This is lift as I use it and the NASA Dictionary also, plus rocket lift usage-

                           

                          lift (symbol L)

                          1. That component of the total aerodynamic force acting on a body perpendicular to the undisturbed airflow relative to the body.

                          2. To lift off, to take off in a vertical ascent. Said of a rocket vehicle. See lift-off.

                           

                          NASA does not bother to define "aerodynamic lift" as a compound term; its understood as my examples of Joe's assertion purport.

                           

                          PeterS has his own ideas what correct usage of these terms is.

                          On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎32‎:‎45‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26484 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                          Subject: Re: Points of Sailing
                          Attachments :

                            DaveS,

                            You are speaking untruthfully. You explained the Cyclo-Kite as depending upon DS. That is a claim about the Cyclo-Kite. Then you changed your claim to only a Cyclo-Kite that is an AWES as depending upon DS. That is a claim about the Cyclo-Kite.  You insisted that the top section of the Cyclo-Kite orbit is “ballistic”. That is a claim about the Cyclo-Kite. So it is very clear that you made claims about the Cyclo-Kite. And your claims were incorrect. When I explained why, you “glossed over” my explanation and repeated your claims.

                            The NASA dictionary shows that your interchanging two terms “aerodynamic lift” and “lift-off” makes no sense. Rocket propulsion does not depend upon aerodynamic lift to achieve lift-off. Your claim that it does, because lift is lift, is nonsense.

                            PeterS

                             

                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:09 PM
                            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [AWES] Points of Sailing

                             

                             

                            I make no claims for a "cyclokite", only describing the looping arch as defined, built, and flown. If PeterS thinks they are the same, I'll take his word on it provisionally, but if my looping arch criteria do not fit, he may be missing some essential difference between the two.

                             

                            PeterS should be happy that the NASA dictionary can settle whose aerospace terminology usage here is most accurate, or provable nonsense.

                             

                            On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎53‎:‎02‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26485 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/25/2019
                            Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Lift without Drag
                            Attachments :

                              Hi DougS,

                              Thank you for your comments. I agree.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:13 PM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [AWES] Aerodynamic Lift without Drag

                               

                               

                               

                              When he does know he was wrong he still won't admit it.  And it doesn't need to be complicated or "physics"-related.  He still can't even admit he never had his AWE-powered concert so many years ago, nor can he admit Altaeros did not follow through on their stated powering of a remote village in Alaska.  So you've got two problems:

                              1) Can he understand what you are saying?

                              2) Will he admit when he is wrong?

                              Often the answer to both is "no", but again, you could not ask him and get an answer.

                              He prefers to dodge any issue that does not reflect "glory" on his part.

                              By the way daveS, a drogue rising on an updraft is not "lift" as defined in aerodynamics, which you recently claimed to have such vast knowledge of, but pure drag.  Just because something is overcoming the weakest force in "weak" physics (gravity) does not mean aerodynamic "lift" is at work.  Nor does a rocket going straight up use aerodynamic "lift" as the term is used in aviation, but instead it could be best described as "thrust", "pressure" or newtonian action-reaction.  What you are doing is a JoeF-type attempt to change the meaning of a word already in play as having a certain meaning, in mid-conversation.  "Lift" as used in aero studies (wings, airfoils) is still not even completely understood or explained.  But it is not the little-kid definition such as "lift" a weight using your hand.  It is vacuum on the upper or vacuum side of a moving anal-hair-foil.  Woops, I mean airfoil.  I think after many years of puzzling it thru my feeble brain, and slowly learning what works and doesn't work in airfoils, I believe I have an easy-to-understand true explanation, which I hope to explain in a video at some point.  Stay tuned - sorry for issuing "future news of my future supposed accomplishments" but isn't that what AWE is all about? Well except for kitewinder...

                               

                              ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26486 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
                              Subject: Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?
                              No Peter, you have not shown how active lift can improve a power kite. Your claim to that effect has to be "glossed over" in your emails. I don't expect you to be able to improve the mighty power kite so easily. Your solution has to pass muster with the power kite professionals, and as you insist, its your fault if they do not understand.

                              Take your time; what you propose, to improve a highly evolved kite from a weird turbine concept, that operates by a principle NASA has never heard of, is not going to be easy. You'll need to make drawings and hopefully a demo.

                              Good Luck



                               

                              DaveS,

                              I already explained that, which means that you apparently “glossed over” what I said.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:08 PM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Tethered Vertical Axis Wind Turbine (TVAWT)?

                               

                               

                              Ok, lets not gloss-over how Active Lift can specifically improve Power Kites. I admit I have no idea, since active lift looks like a wash. Go ahead and explain how.

                               

                              To me the power kite is relatively perfect after decades and millions of units. de Exupery defined perfection as "nothing left to take away". That's KIS. 

                               

                              How can adding active lift help such a divine wing?

                               

                              On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎01‎:‎15‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26487 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
                              Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?
                              Active Lift is a coined term more like a marketing brand than proper aerospace terminology. Its sort of nauseating, really. You really seem to embrace it, for lack anything else. The VAWT diehards are an odd bunch with their "breakthroughs" that do change the world any.

                              You have to admit, NASA's idea of the meaning of Lift is how I used it to support JoeF. Your lift meaning was your own and it caused you to lapse into impolite rhetoric, because we represented the NASA definition.



                               

                              DaveS,

                              I already explained that it is a coined term to help identify a new principle of VAWT. So you must have “glossed over” what I said.

                              New terms have to be invented to match new principles. I’ve coined many new terms to help clarify exactly what I am referring to. The terms serve as a shorthand way of referring to some phenomena. They could be described using existing terms, or existing mathematical formula, but that would become cumbersome. But it is important to be precise about the meaning so that the new word does not cause more confusion.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:22 PM
                              To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26488 From: dave santos Date: 6/25/2019
                              Subject: Re: Is "Active Lift" defined in Aerosapce Science?
                              It gets worse; NASA's definition of "active" does not match VAWT coinage-

                              "active
                              1. Transmitting a signal, as active satellite . Antonym of passive.
                              2. = radioactive, as active sample .
                              3. = fissionable, as active material .
                              4. Receiving energy from some source other than a signal, as active element . "



                               

                              Active Lift is a coined term more like a marketing brand than proper aerospace terminology. Its sort of nauseating, really. You really seem to embrace it, for lack anything else. The VAWT diehards are an odd bunch with their "breakthroughs" that do change the world any.

                              You have to admit, NASA's idea of the meaning of Lift is how I used it to support JoeF. Your lift meaning was your own and it caused you to lapse into impolite rhetoric, because we represented the NASA definition.

                              On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎17‎:‎36‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


                               

                              DaveS,

                              I already explained that it is a coined term to help identify a new principle of VAWT. So you must have “glossed over” what I said.

                              New terms have to be invented to match new principles. I’ve coined many new terms to help clarify exactly what I am referring to. The terms serve as a shorthand way of referring to some phenomena. They could be described using existing terms, or existing mathematical formula, but that would become cumbersome. But it is important to be precise about the meaning so that the new word does not cause more confusion.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:22 PM
                              To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26489 From: dougselsam Date: 6/25/2019
                              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                              Interesting to know, Peter.
                              :)
                              Doug


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                              Hi JoeF,

                              Yes, rotor pressure is from lift and drag. But the blade drag is quite small and doesn’t not have much effect on the component lift vector of the blade that is directed inward (when upwind) and outward (when downwind). It is the blade lift that creates the rotor drag (rotor pressure). That’s why a 2-bladed VAWT will shake violently if the rotor drag pulses coincide with a natural frequency of the rotor/tower. Does that help to clarify?

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:30 PM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                               

                               

                              Is not the rotor pressure from lift and drag?