Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25333 to 25382 Page 398 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25333 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Re: COTS C-Kites, Turn-rate, and AirSpace Efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25334 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Fastest Turn for High AR Flying Wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25335 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Crosswind Dancing Hippos (OL Dancing-8 Networks)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25336 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Cool 2010 Kite Yacht

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25337 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: HumanCocoon.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25338 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Re: Crosswind Dancing Hippos (OL Dancing-8 Networks)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25339 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Mass Launching and Landing Kite Carousel (Bee-Hive Topology)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25340 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Powered 4.5 SS Wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25341 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25342 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25343 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25344 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Wind Energy Science Journal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25345 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: COTS C-Kites, Turn-rate, and AirSpace Efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25346 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: 3D Weather Radar (and more) is here

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25347 From: dougselsam Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25348 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Fabric Embedded FAA FAR Compliant Light Systems, Daytime Conspicuity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25349 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25350 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25351 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Discobot AI enslaved to solve AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25352 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Aympx's "Senior Algorythms Engineer" Call

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25353 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Ampyx adopts Simulink and wants its Senior Engineer to use it

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25354 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25355 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25356 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25357 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Paper: Boundary layer transition modeling on leading edge inflatable

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25358 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Paper: Aerodynamic characterization of a soft kite by in situ flow m

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25359 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Paper: System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25360 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Fraunhofer Institute AWE R&D participation continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25361 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Paper: Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic pro

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25362 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25363 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25364 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25365 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25366 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: AWEC 2019 Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25367 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25368 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25369 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25370 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25371 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25372 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25373 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Paper: System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25374 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Paper: Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25375 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doubt

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25376 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25377 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25378 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25379 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25380 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25381 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25382 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25333 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Re: COTS C-Kites, Turn-rate, and AirSpace Efficiency
Clarifying AR usage, there are two aspect ratios to keep straight- Absolute AR of the wing Laid Flat, and relative Projected Area AR of bowed/C kites in flight.

Fast Turn Rate is property of Low AR, by projected area, which includes C-kites of fairly high AR when laid flat.



 

Tallak Tveide <tallakt@gmail.com
On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎24‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎13‎:‎11‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

To extend basic power-kite turn-rate theory to C-kite turning, its always been obvious that a balanced mix of "brake" line and CE shift input is the fastest turn. Less known is better CE shift by push-turn input.

C-kite "ears" obviously dig into a turn better than a flat kite can. An inside-turn C-kite ear at high Cl promotes a crack-the-whip action on the outer wing area, boosting its lift. The outer ear flattens and feathers along or even adds tip-washout, for minimal induced drag.





On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎24‎, ‎2019‎ ‎09‎:‎11‎:‎47‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

The demands of freestyle kitesports have evolved the fastest turning kites, C-kites. These wings generate high power in the turn state, and are thus ideal for compact pattern flying like PierreB has been advocating, to conserve AWES airspace.*

The design qualities of the C-kite kite that promote turning performance are C-form and resulting moderate (projected) AR. For large-pattern flying with slow turns, a race kite of high AR is favored. These principles apply to dense kite-networks with fast-tight lattice-wave motion, thus C-kites look like a good COTS bet.

C-kites come in both LEI and parafoil versions. PeterL's Arc C-kite parafoils are a notable classic.


===========
* Not good news for Ampyx and Makani, with large turn patterns, and more kitefarm sprall...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25334 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Fastest Turn for High AR Flying Wing
High AR wings are slow to Yaw, but Roll faster, and Pitch Fastest. The "Elevon Turn" is the fastest High AR turn option, here's how- 

Roll first, Pitch smartly, make the turn, Roll out on the new course, avoiding Yaw. 

This turn is also used for rudderless classic flying wing aircraft of similar form to High AR parafoil kites.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25335 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Crosswind Dancing Hippos (OL Dancing-8 Networks)
DaveC's OL ship-kite design is the most radical COTS power kite ever, with the highest possible power-to-mass, for greatest scalability. On first impression, OLs look odd, like giant buttocks. In fact, Hippo buttocks are very similar minimal surface load-path solution. The Dancing-8 rig being developed can be driven by a powerfully ambling OL, so there you have it; the Dancing Hippos AWE.

Based the world's largest soft wings, which fly well within relaxed scaling limits, 10,000m2 SS hippos should work, while parafoils may top out at ~2000m2, as ~10MW units using current materials and methods. Imagine vast crosswind rows and columns of Dancing Hippos, with a collective frontal airspace solidity of perhaps 0.2. 

Could Dancing Hippo Kite Networks be the future of GW-scale AWE, at lowest LCOE? If so, its Open-AWE_IP-Pool

Inline image




Inline image
Inline image
Inline image



   @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25336 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: Cool 2010 Kite Yacht
Featured with an OL option, but a SkySails system might be the better match to such a hot hull-

https://oceanandairtechnology.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/maryslim-multimarine-composites-wave-cleaving-very-slender-vessel/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25337 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2019
Subject: HumanCocoon.com
Attachments :
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25338 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/25/2019
    Subject: Re: Crosswind Dancing Hippos (OL Dancing-8 Networks)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25339 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Mass Launching and Landing Kite Carousel (Bee-Hive Topology)
    Building here on old discussion, that AWES unit-kites might deploy and regroup to and from airports in large numbers, in order to link-up with regional kite farms, as a bit of IFO-hybrid thinking.

    In a relatively small land footprint, with wind from any quarter, a reeling-winch kite carousel could launch and land large numbers of AWES unit-kites to self-ferry to area kitefarms. Seasonally, and subject to weather forecasts, the kites would come and go like a hive of bees. Far more kites would deploy than a single carousel could host as a single AWES, so carousel capital cost becomes highly leveraged.

    Such an "airport carousel" would tow tethers topped with small docking kites to couple and uncouple giant kites, which could deploy from packs or furl aloft, as found useful. The tether-top layer might be a continuous flying ring, like PierreB's and similar variants.

    Open-AWE_IP-Cloud (IP Pool)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25340 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Powered 4.5 SS Wing
    These days folks do great AWE R&D progress without even knowing it. Hack this for a tethered flygen or groundgen control-pod. Choice of colors; a historic milestone in AWE?


    4.5m RC-Flair wing ONLY - RED/WHITE/VIOLET - Hacker Motor USA
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25341 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing
    The key difference of this SS wing is a single close bridle-point for the payload, rather than the standard long-line multi-line geometry, so its inherently suited for Pod work. This looks like a great SS wing build, including Aramid bridling. Who makes this wing?



     

    These days folks do great AWE R&D progress without even knowing it. Hack this for a tethered flygen or groundgen control-pod. Choice of colors; a historic milestone in AWE?


    4.5m RC-Flair wing ONLY - RED/WHITE/VIOLET - Hacker Motor USA
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25342 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing
    An even more amazing wing, Hackermotor of Bavaria has somehow stolen a lead in soft-wing innovation. See "about" text at bottom. The missing AWES bit left is motorgen function, with suitable rotor, gearing and electronics. Have emailed subsidiary in Kansas City.

    Their Nexus wing is an avant garde hybrid of parafoil cells and SS cells in a fine overall wing-form. Elite design trickle-down suggests simple 3D cell flares are next, with whisker rim intakes, always moving toward SS nirvana end of the spectrum.

    RC Paraglider - 4.3m Nexus Powered Paraglider wing. Best all around performer.


    ABOUT- 

    "Hacker Motor GmbH is known worldwide as a leader in brushless electric motor technology.  Our roots are in the RC hobby power systems but Hacker is pleased to supply brushless drive technologies used in countless applications beyond RC.
     

    Rainer Hacker founded the business outside Munich, Germany, in 2000.  Today the firm has XX employees in Germany dedicated to serving the RC hobby market in the EU and a new division, Hacker Industrial Solutions, that’s busy developing advanced drive technologies.  Bavaria is known for its advanced technology and Hacker’s facility in Ergolding is a stone’s throw from several large automotive manufacturers and suppliers.  These industries are the anchor for an extended network of top quality engineering and manufacturing firms with which Hacker collaborates to bring the very latest technologies together for our brushless power applications.

    Hacker’s US representative is Hacker Motor Distribution Co., LLC. We are centrally located in a suburb of Kansas City.  Lee Estingoy, the US owner, brings many years of brushless drive industry experience and an abiding passion for RC to work every morning.  It is a privilege to work with Hacker’s loyal customers, a team of talented engineers and an incredible product line. 

    "



     

    The key difference of this SS wing is a single close bridle-point for the payload, rather than the standard long-line multi-line geometry, so its inherently suited for Pod work. This looks like a great SS wing build, including Aramid bridling. Who makes this wing?

    On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎08‎:‎55‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    These days folks do great AWE R&D progress without even knowing it. Hack this for a tethered flygen or groundgen control-pod. Choice of colors; a historic milestone in AWE?


    4.5m RC-Flair wing ONLY - RED/WHITE/VIOLET - Hacker Motor USA
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25343 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: Powered 4.5 SS Wing


    Here's the German epicenter of RC-accelerated soft-wing design-

    Para-RC | Hacker Motor News Magazin






     

    An even more amazing wing, Hackermotor of Bavaria has somehow stolen a lead in soft-wing innovation. See "about" text at bottom. The missing AWES bit left is motorgen function, with suitable rotor, gearing and electronics. Have emailed subsidiary in Kansas City.

    Their Nexus wing is an avant garde hybrid of parafoil cells and SS cells in a fine overall wing-form. Elite design trickle-down suggests simple 3D cell flares are next, with whisker rim intakes, always moving toward SS nirvana end of the spectrum.

    RC Paraglider - 4.3m Nexus Powered Paraglider wing. Best all around performer.


    ABOUT- 

    "Hacker Motor GmbH is known worldwide as a leader in brushless electric motor technology.  Our roots are in the RC hobby power systems but Hacker is pleased to supply brushless drive technologies used in countless applications beyond RC.
     

    Rainer Hacker founded the business outside Munich, Germany, in 2000.  Today the firm has XX employees in Germany dedicated to serving the RC hobby market in the EU and a new division, Hacker Industrial Solutions, that’s busy developing advanced drive technologies.  Bavaria is known for its advanced technology and Hacker’s facility in Ergolding is a stone’s throw from several large automotive manufacturers and suppliers.  These industries are the anchor for an extended network of top quality engineering and manufacturing firms with which Hacker collaborates to bring the very latest technologies together for our brushless power applications.

    Hacker’s US representative is Hacker Motor Distribution Co., LLC. We are centrally located in a suburb of Kansas City.  Lee Estingoy, the US owner, brings many years of brushless drive industry experience and an abiding passion for RC to work every morning.  It is a privilege to work with Hacker’s loyal customers, a team of talented engineers and an incredible product line. 

    "

    On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎06‎:‎01‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    The key difference of this SS wing is a single close bridle-point for the payload, rather than the standard long-line multi-line geometry, so its inherently suited for Pod work. This looks like a great SS wing build, including Aramid bridling. Who makes this wing?

    On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎08‎:‎55‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    These days folks do great AWE R&D progress without even knowing it. Hack this for a tethered flygen or groundgen control-pod. Choice of colors; a historic milestone in AWE?


    4.5m RC-Flair wing ONLY - RED/WHITE/VIOLET - Hacker Motor USA
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25344 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Wind Energy Science Journal
    Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby, thus WES, the journal, is a young peer-reviewed journal, that publishes quite a few AWE papers, and newly accepted in Scopus, a leading science publishing database. WES comprises an academic bridge between conventional wind and upper wind energy engineering science. 

    Look here for preprint AWE papers, hot in the oven-

    WES - Recent
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25345 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: COTS C-Kites, Turn-rate, and AirSpace Efficiency
    Turn-Rate is only part of the AWE design puzzle. Turn-Period and Turn-Range count too.

    Turn-Period is shortened when, by design, angular Turn-Range is also short. A fast wing whose Turn-Range is ~270deg at each end of an Eight can have a similar or longer Turn-Period than a slow wing that only needs to tack ~90deg (a sub-360deg TSR effect). For an equivalent Turn-Rate, a smaller Turn-Range means a better crosswind tacking cycle, with less tacking downtime phase-loss.

    ===========

    Another kind of High AR fast turn is by inboard-drag, by tripping the trailing wing-tip to act as a J-foil, to whip the leading tip around. Low mass helps; high mass will sustain flat-spin easier, overwhelming equivalent actuation.


     

    Clarifying AR usage, there are two aspect ratios to keep straight- Absolute AR of the wing Laid Flat, and relative Projected Area AR of bowed/C kites in flight.

    Fast Turn Rate is property of Low AR, by projected area, which includes C-kites of fairly high AR when laid flat.

    On ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎09‎:‎08‎:‎57‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    Tallak Tveide <tallakt@gmail.com
    On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎24‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎13‎:‎11‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    To extend basic power-kite turn-rate theory to C-kite turning, its always been obvious that a balanced mix of "brake" line and CE shift input is the fastest turn. Less known is better CE shift by push-turn input.

    C-kite "ears" obviously dig into a turn better than a flat kite can. An inside-turn C-kite ear at high Cl promotes a crack-the-whip action on the outer wing area, boosting its lift. The outer ear flattens and feathers along or even adds tip-washout, for minimal induced drag.





    On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎24‎, ‎2019‎ ‎09‎:‎11‎:‎47‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    The demands of freestyle kitesports have evolved the fastest turning kites, C-kites. These wings generate high power in the turn state, and are thus ideal for compact pattern flying like PierreB has been advocating, to conserve AWES airspace.*

    The design qualities of the C-kite kite that promote turning performance are C-form and resulting moderate (projected) AR. For large-pattern flying with slow turns, a race kite of high AR is favored. These principles apply to dense kite-networks with fast-tight lattice-wave motion, thus C-kites look like a good COTS bet.

    C-kites come in both LEI and parafoil versions. PeterL's Arc C-kite parafoils are a notable classic.


    ===========
    * Not good news for Ampyx and Makani, with large turn patterns, and more kitefarm sprall....
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25346 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: 3D Weather Radar (and more) is here
    Note these are 5 year old sources. No doubt cheap local micro-weather imaging is coming fast, and kite farms will not fly blind-

    Unleash Your Inner Geek With These Excellent Weather Radar Programs


    What starts at airshows spreads fast-

    Honeywell Taps Technology to Expand Air Transport Capacity
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25347 From: dougselsam Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal
    daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
    *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
    Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25348 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Fabric Embedded FAA FAR Compliant Light Systems, Daytime Conspicuity
    Night-Flight Conspicuity-Lighting of giant soft kites will likely involve fabric-embedded lights with local solar surface and thin battery, because the large fabric surfaces create gaps in the FAA 50ft spacing requirement. Previous night soft kite lighting state-of-art was lights hung on kite lines or stashed inside fabric cells. Light from the ground also has a possible role in warning off air traffic. Fabrics will act as diffusers to enhance night conspicuity. FAA-defined light-points and spacing remain the default design requirement. 

    ----------

    Daytime giant kite landscape visibility can be reduced to near zero by semi-transparent light grey coloring (ie Cuben Fiber). A giant kite would need marking patches of White and FAA Red to reasonable minimum conspicuity standards, not fully defined, yet expected less intrusive visually than solid bright coloring.

    ======

    These design solutions do not apply to high-speed AWES ventures, who have not yet solved how to make an aerobatic trajectory fully visible to oncoming traffic.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25349 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal
    Doug,

    By "science" in this topic is meant modern peer-reviewed data-driven wind science, not ancient wind science.

    Old wind art and science is a separate topic we also love,

    ds 



     

    daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
    *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
    Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25350 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"
    Kite dynamics have been shown by many Forum examples and references to be a fine analog for QM.

    Historically speaking, QM began with atomic physics, but the principles are now well validated in many processes at many scales.

    Everything obeys QM principles, kites included.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25351 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
    Subject: Discobot AI enslaved to solve AWE
    Attachments :
      serves it right, see attch.
      		   @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25352 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
      Subject: Aympx's "Senior Algorythms Engineer" Call
      What qualifies, 65 years plus? Might as well let senior citizens be the ones to muck up AWE algorithms-

      Senior Algorithms engineer - Ampyx Power
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25353 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
      Subject: Ampyx adopts Simulink and wants its Senior Engineer to use it
      No doubt Simulink can do the job, as a presumed Universal Turing Machine, in real-time to boot; the core challenge is framing the control problem for adequate real-world life-cycle and safety statistics-

      Simulink
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25354 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal
      Stone age science is very cool, but here's a taste of WES, a BC-DE paper published under open peer review just one week ago, introducing spectral nudging methods to AWE wind field estimation-

      https://www.wind-energ-sci-discuss.net/wes-2019-7/wes-2019-7.pdf



       

      Doug,

      By "science" in this topic is meant modern peer-reviewed data-driven wind science, not ancient wind science.

      Old wind art and science is a separate topic we also love,

      ds 

      On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎39‎:‎27‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old..  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25355 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal
      More cool science in the sample WES paper is the 24hr LIDAR data plot showing Wayne and Cristina's LLJ like an orange sun, and a wavy line across the plot of optimal calculated WECS altitude. A key thesis of this paper is that varying altitude is highly desirable, a thesis long advocated here, but without such fine data and formal process.



       

      Stone age science is very cool, but here's a taste of WES, a BC-DE paper published under open peer review just one week ago, introducing spectral nudging methods to AWE wind field estimation-

      https://www.wind-energ-sci-discuss.net/wes-2019-7/wes-2019-7.pdf

      On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎05‎:‎16‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      Doug,

      By "science" in this topic is meant modern peer-reviewed data-driven wind science, not ancient wind science.

      Old wind art and science is a separate topic we also love,

      ds 

      On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎39‎:‎27‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old...  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn..  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25356 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power
      You are grasping at straws to try and remain relevant while pursuing basically nothing.
      If you want a technological "newborn baby", the internal combustion engine is a little over a century old.  That is "a newborn baby" compared to wind, which may be one of the oldest continuously-improved technologies known to man, certainly one of the oldest energy technologies.  It is amazing to me how people "assign" their own level of ignorance to an advanced art now making something like 5% of our electricity, while making zero power themselves.  The largest non-animal source of industrial power in Europe for 1000 years.  It means nothing to you.  You try to pretend it doesn't exist.  "Allergic to facts"...  "Immune to facts"...  How can one even describe it?  You're living in a fantasy-world of your own construction, where doing nothing somehow "outperforms"(?) a huge worldwide industry through empty talk, pretending to out-think the real experts while producing no power at all.  Crazy.  You sit around musing on the internet, posting like ten times a day, saying pretty much nothing the whole time.  Most of what you write reads to wind energy people like a series of excuses and diversions to hide the fact that you just don't have anything useful running.
      You endlessly cite a paper called "crosswind kite power" which could have stopped at the three words in its title - say those 3 words and you are done explaining it.  But you don't DO it.  The FIRST thing that pops into my head reading the words "crosswind kite power" is a loop of line around two pulleys located crosswind, a capstan (which could be one of the pulleys) driven by the line, with the line pulled back and forth (crosswind) by a kite flying back and forth "crosswind".  Yet, as far as I know nobody has tried it.  A billion dollars wasted so far on AWE or "crosswind kite power", and nobody has tried flying a kite crosswind back and forth to turn a generator?  Wait and it gets better:  You with your claims of being some sort of top researcher for over a decade and you just noticed that the turning radius might be an important factor at each end of the kite's travel?  I'm sorry but to me, the failure of AWE to live up to any normal standard is just amazing.  It's like an intellectual wasteland.  Hundreds or even thousands of people thinking they are so smart, most knowing almost nothing of the art they claim to have an improvement on, supposed "research" that in some cases never even produces any power, every major "project" disappearing, on schedule, the moment it is supposed to actually do what it's supposed to do... and nobody even mentioning that fact (except me).  Let me get this straight:  You've been hawking your various versions of "crosswind kite power" for like 12 years, and just now noticed that a kite flying back and forth could pull a cable better if it could turn around quicker at each end of the travel?  Wouldn't that be like the first thing someone would notice?  And yet you post like 10 times a day!  Its like a daily brain-dump but it;s actually more like just a daily dump, period.  When are you going to think of anything useful?  When will you get "a crosswind kite" flying and making some power.  People would really like to see it, even if it doesn;t work that great - maybe it will, but nobody will ever know if nobody tries it.  Maybe the first one will suck but subsequent versions could get better.  You will never know, if you never try.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788activity span .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 dd.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 dd.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 dd.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788last p span.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 div#ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 .ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 input, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-840201187 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788 #ygrps-yiv-840201187ygrps-yiv-1145902372yiv4327726788ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25357 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Paper: Boundary layer transition modeling on leading edge inflatable
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25358 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Paper: Aerodynamic characterization of a soft kite by in situ flow m
      Aerodynamic characterization of a soft kite by in situ flow measurement
      Johannes Oehler and Roland Schmehl
      https://www.wind-energ-sci.net/4/1/2019/  

      Oehler, J. and Schmehl, R.: Aerodynamic characterization of a soft kite by in situ flow measurement, Wind Energ. Sci., 4, 1-21, https://doi.org/10.5194/wes-4-1-2019, 2019.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25359 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Paper: System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a kite

      System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a kite power system with fixed tether length

      Tarek N. Dief, Uwe Fechner, Roland Schmehl, Shigeo Yoshida, 
      Amr M. M. Ismaiel, and Amr M. Halawa

      https://www.wind-energ-sci.net/3/275/2018/ 

      ======================== 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25360 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Fraunhofer Institute AWE R&D participation continues
      The reference "salad" below indicates FI “OnKites I” work in 2014 carries on as “OnKites II”, with continued funding, in partnership with TUD's venture circles. Fraunhofer is a quiet game-changer that seems on track to outlast evanescent promotional buzz, and ultimately become a serious AWES global engineering leader, as the field continues to mature.

      11. Gambier, A.: Projekt OnKites : Untersuchung zu den Potentialen von Flugwindenergieanla-
      gen (FWEA). Final Project Report, Fraunhofer Institute for Wind Energy and Energy System
      Technology IWES, Bremerhaven, Germany, 2014. 155 pp. doi: 10.2314/GBV:81573428X
      12. Gambier, A., Bastigkeit, I., Nippold, E.: Projekt OnKites II : Untersuchung zu den Potentialen
      von Flugwindenergieanlagen (FWEA) Phase II. Final Project Report, Fraunhofer Institute for
      Wind Energy and Energy System Technology IWES, Bremerhaven, Germany, June 2017.
      25 Fast Power Curve and Yield Estimation of Pumping Airborne Wind Energy Systems 641
      105 pp. https: //www.tib.eu/de/ suchen/id/TIBKAT%3A1002309476/Projekt- OnKites - II-
      Untersuchung-zu-den-Potentialen/

       “OnKites I” and “OnKites II” project [grant number 0325394A]
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25361 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Paper: Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic pro
      Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic properties of tethered membrane wings
      Jan Hummel, Dietmar Göhlich, and Roland Schmehl
      Wind Energ. Sci., 4, 41-55, https://doi.org/10.5194/wes-4-41-2019, 2019

      https://www.wind-energ-sci.net/4/41/2019/  

      =================================
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25362 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"
      Sounds like one more excuse to me.  The mythical "Professor Crackpot" character would similarly be unable to ever get anything real going, due to being "too advanced for the world to grasp".  Meanwhile, synchronized movement has always been part of machine design.  Just because parts of a machine move together does not imply they are a quantum bose-einstein condensate.  Are all of the atoms making up a piston-rod a "bose-einstein condensate"?  Why?  Because they all move together?  trillions of them?  Do i.c. engine designers try to pretend they are suddenly nuclear physicists?  Maybe you should concentrate on getting something working instead of hoping that posting the words "wright brothers" and "einstein" regularly will somehow magically run off on you.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25363 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power
      Doug is off-topic in overlooking wonderful Stone Age Internal Combustion engineering science, possibly older than wind tech (see link). IC application in modern engines closely matches electrical generation development behind conventional wind. WES is a properly welcome source of AWE engineering science insight. If Doug would read [Loyd] he would find more to know than just its title. Same goes for the hundreds of other AWE papers, that indeed share valuable domain information Doug fails to recognize on merits.
      -------------
      Fire-Piston- "this ancient firemaking machine is utilizing the Diesel principle."
      Fire Piston






       

      You are grasping at straws to try and remain relevant while pursuing basically nothing.
      If you want a technological "newborn baby", the internal combustion engine is a little over a century old.  That is "a newborn baby" compared to wind, which may be one of the oldest continuously-improved technologies known to man, certainly one of the oldest energy technologies.  It is amazing to me how people "assign" their own level of ignorance to an advanced art now making something like 5% of our electricity, while making zero power themselves.  The largest non-animal source of industrial power in Europe for 1000 years.  It means nothing to you.  You try to pretend it doesn't exist.  "Allergic to facts"...  "Immune to facts"...  How can one even describe it?  You're living in a fantasy-world of your own construction, where doing nothing somehow "outperforms"(?) a huge worldwide industry through empty talk, pretending to out-think the real experts while producing no power at all.  Crazy.  You sit around musing on the internet, posting like ten times a day, saying pretty much nothing the whole time.  Most of what you write reads to wind energy people like a series of excuses and diversions to hide the fact that you just don't have anything useful running.
      You endlessly cite a paper called "crosswind kite power" which could have stopped at the three words in its title - say those 3 words and you are done explaining it.  But you don't DO it.  The FIRST thing that pops into my head reading the words "crosswind kite power" is a loop of line around two pulleys located crosswind, a capstan (which could be one of the pulleys) driven by the line, with the line pulled back and forth (crosswind) by a kite flying back and forth "crosswind".  Yet, as far as I know nobody has tried it.  A billion dollars wasted so far on AWE or "crosswind kite power", and nobody has tried flying a kite crosswind back and forth to turn a generator?  Wait and it gets better:  You with your claims of being some sort of top researcher for over a decade and you just noticed that the turning radius might be an important factor at each end of the kite's travel?  I'm sorry but to me, the failure of AWE to live up to any normal standard is just amazing.  It's like an intellectual wasteland.  Hundreds or even thousands of people thinking they are so smart, most knowing almost nothing of the art they claim to have an improvement on, supposed "research" that in some cases never even produces any power, every major "project" disappearing, on schedule, the moment it is supposed to actually do what it's supposed to do... and nobody even mentioning that fact (except me).  Let me get this straight:  You've been hawking your various versions of "crosswind kite power" for like 12 years, and just now noticed that a kite flying back and forth could pull a cable better if it could turn around quicker at each end of the travel?  Wouldn't that be like the first thing someone would notice?  And yet you post like 10 times a day!  Its like a daily brain-dump but it;s actually more like just a daily dump, period.  When are you going to think of anything useful?  When will you get "a crosswind kite" flying and making some power.  People would really like to see it, even if it doesn;t work that great - maybe it will, but nobody will ever know if nobody tries it.  Maybe the first one will suck but subsequent versions could get better.  You will never know, if you never try.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25364 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"
      Doug, KiteMotor1 and KiteSat, and many other AWES demos, really work as intended, rather better than your own small unloaded AWES based on yardsticks, but congratulations anyway.

      Your critique of QM insights into kite dynamics is more emotional rather than factual. Ongoing conceptual progress in Kite Network theory would be far slower without applicable phonon physics.

      Good luck mastering QM concepts by diligent study, to understand just how they inform better AWE engineering solutions.



       

      Sounds like one more excuse to me.  The mythical "Professor Crackpot" character would similarly be unable to ever get anything real going, due to being "too advanced for the world to grasp".  Meanwhile, synchronized movement has always been part of machine design.  Just because parts of a machine move together does not imply they are a quantum bose-einstein condensate.  Are all of the atoms making up a piston-rod a "bose-einstein condensate"?  Why?  Because they all move together?  trillions of them?  Do i.c. engine designers try to pretend they are suddenly nuclear physicists?  Maybe you should concentrate on getting something working instead of hoping that posting the words "wright brothers" and "einstein" regularly will somehow magically run off on you.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25365 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power
      Wow I'm "off-topic" AND I "overlook" "wonderful" stone-age cigar-lighters?  Sure, "everyone knows" the diesel engine was based on compressed-air cigar-lighters popular many years ago, themselves based on an old pacific island fire-starting trick, which was itself derived from honing out blowguns using long sticks.  But what daveS "misses" and is "off-topic" on is that starting a fire is not an internal combustion engine.  No, that is where daveS goes "off-the-rails" again, in this case trying to substitute a stone-age precursor for an actual technology.  Who got the I.C.engine going?  Why it was "The Wright Brothers", of course.  Nobody made one good enough for their airplane, so they had to make their own.  Imagine where AWE would be if the would-be practitioners had that level of skill and initiative!  Meanwhile, I don;t see where the Loyd paper offers any insights that are not obvious from its title.  Where has it gotten anybody?  Am I right that nobody has yet tried powering  generator by a kite traveling back-and-forth, crosswind, pulling a loop of line wrapped around a capstan turning a generator?  Why?  Too easy?  Too simple?  Not "einstein"-related enough?


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... utilizing the Diesel principle."
      Fire Piston






       

      You are grasping at straws to try and remain relevant while pursuing basically nothing.
      If you want a technological "newborn baby", the internal combustion engine is a little over a century old.  That is "a newborn baby" compared to wind, which may be one of the oldest continuously-improved technologies known to man, certainly one of the oldest energy technologies.  It is amazing to me how people "assign" their own level of ignorance to an advanced art now making something like 5% of our electricity, while making zero power themselves.  The largest non-animal source of industrial power in Europe for 1000 years.  It means nothing to you.  You try to pretend it doesn't exist.  "Allergic to facts"...  "Immune to facts"...  How can one even describe it?  You're living in a fantasy-world of your own construction, where doing nothing somehow "outperforms"(?) a huge worldwide industry through empty talk, pretending to out-think the real experts while producing no power at all.  Crazy.  You sit around musing on the internet, posting like ten times a day, saying pretty much nothing the whole time.  Most of what you write reads to wind energy people like a series of excuses and diversions to hide the fact that you just don't have anything useful running.
      You endlessly cite a paper called "crosswind kite power" which could have stopped at the three words in its title - say those 3 words and you are done explaining it.  But you don't DO it.  The FIRST thing that pops into my head reading the words "crosswind kite power" is a loop of line around two pulleys located crosswind, a capstan (which could be one of the pulleys) driven by the line, with the line pulled back and forth (crosswind) by a kite flying back and forth "crosswind".  Yet, as far as I know nobody has tried it.  A billion dollars wasted so far on AWE or "crosswind kite power", and nobody has tried flying a kite crosswind back and forth to turn a generator?  Wait and it gets better:  You with your claims of being some sort of top researcher for over a decade and you just noticed that the turning radius might be an important factor at each end of the kite's travel?  I'm sorry but to me, the failure of AWE to live up to any normal standard is just amazing.  It's like an intellectual wasteland.  Hundreds or even thousands of people thinking they are so smart, most knowing almost nothing of the art they claim to have an improvement on, supposed "research" that in some cases never even produces any power, every major "project" disappearing, on schedule, the moment it is supposed to actually do what it's supposed to do... and nobody even mentioning that fact (except me).  Let me get this straight:  You've been hawking your various versions of "crosswind kite power" for like 12 years, and just now noticed that a kite flying back and forth could pull a cable better if it could turn around quicker at each end of the travel?  Wouldn't that be like the first thing someone would notice?  And yet you post like 10 times a day!  Its like a daily brain-dump but it;s actually more like just a daily dump, period.  When are you going to think of anything useful?  When will you get "a crosswind kite" flying and making some power.  People would really like to see it, even if it doesn;t work that great - maybe it will, but nobody will ever know if nobody tries it.  Maybe the first one will suck but subsequent versions could get better.  You will never know, if you never try.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442activity span .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442last p span.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 div#ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 .ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 input, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848264922 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442 #ygrps-yiv-1848264922ygrps-yiv-1458968474yiv3303356442ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25366 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: AWEC 2019 Update
      Conference Organizing and Program Committees are in place. 

      The sad trend of increasing EU intellectual isolation in AWE deepens, with only Vermillion and Felker as token US participants (and one Brazilian), out of 29 conference organizers. AWE conferences outside of Northern EU have long ceased, due to ongoing opaque conference-planning domination by the same small circle, with documented conflicts-of-interest. AWEC conference attendance has not kept up with the R&D explosion, for lack of broad inclusive programming. A serious AWEC open-flying component? AWEC 2020 in Seattle, at MoF? Don't bet on it.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25367 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"
      daveS said: Ongoing conceptual progress in Kite Network theory would be far slower without applicable phonon physics.
      ***DougS replies:  In my opinion you are suffering from delusions of grandeur.  "Progress"?  Huh?  I do not think there has been any such progress.  In my opinion your pretense of applying "advanced physics" is nothing but a dodge or excuse for feigning AWE relevance while really getting nothing going.  Back to the piston engine:  Do engine designers spend a lot of time talking about "quantum phonons"?  Why or why not?  Did "The Wright Brothers" ever mention quantum phonons in getting their engine working right?  What's next?  Is there any obscure branch of theoretical physics you have not claimed to have mastered while still offering no working AWE system beyond the initial prototypes you so often mention that produced 5 Watts or less, more than a decade ago?  If they were relevant, why were they immediately given up on?  Because it's easier to endlessly post "brain dumps" on the internet, rather than build anything that works well?


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      Sounds like one more excuse to me.  The mythical "Professor Crackpot" character would similarly be unable to ever get anything real going, due to being "too advanced for the world to grasp".  Meanwhile, synchronized movement has always been part of machine design.  Just because parts of a machine move together does not imply they are a quantum bose-einstein condensate.  Are all of the atoms making up a piston-rod a "bose-einstein condensate"?  Why?  Because they all move together?  trillions of them?  Do i.c. engine designers try to pretend they are suddenly nuclear physicists?  Maybe you should concentrate on getting something working instead of hoping that posting the words "wright brothers" and "einstein" regularly will somehow magically run off on you.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002activity span .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 dd.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 dd.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 dd.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002last p span.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 div#ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 .ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 input, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-795858053 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002 #ygrps-yiv-795858053ygrps-yiv-437392270yiv1432533002ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25368 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25369 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Wind Energy Science Journal - crosswind kite power
      Doug, knowing about Stone Age IC science just shows folks as a whole are more aware of both old and new science (WES)  than you alone. Arguing from willful ignorance against WES is unlikely to lead anywhere good. Good Luck making further inventive progress instead.






       

      Wow I'm "off-topic" AND I "overlook" "wonderful" stone-age cigar-lighters?  Sure, "everyone knows" the diesel engine was based on compressed-air cigar-lighters popular many years ago, themselves based on an old pacific island fire-starting trick, which was itself derived from honing out blowguns using long sticks.  But what daveS "misses" and is "off-topic" on is that starting a fire is not an internal combustion engine.  No, that is where daveS goes "off-the-rails" again, in this case trying to substitute a stone-age precursor for an actual technology.  Who got the I.C.engine going?  Why it was "The Wright Brothers", of course.  Nobody made one good enough for their airplane, so they had to make their own.  Imagine where AWE would be if the would-be practitioners had that level of skill and initiative!  Meanwhile, I don;t see where the Loyd paper offers any insights that are not obvious from its title.  Where has it gotten anybody?  Am I right that nobody has yet tried powering  generator by a kite traveling back-and-forth, crosswind, pulling a loop of line wrapped around a capstan turning a generator?  Why?  Too easy?  Too simple?  Not "einstein"-related enough?



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... utilizing the Diesel principle."
      Fire Piston






       

      You are grasping at straws to try and remain relevant while pursuing basically nothing.
      If you want a technological "newborn baby", the internal combustion engine is a little over a century old.  That is "a newborn baby" compared to wind, which may be one of the oldest continuously-improved technologies known to man, certainly one of the oldest energy technologies.  It is amazing to me how people "assign" their own level of ignorance to an advanced art now making something like 5% of our electricity, while making zero power themselves.  The largest non-animal source of industrial power in Europe for 1000 years.  It means nothing to you.  You try to pretend it doesn't exist.  "Allergic to facts"...  "Immune to facts"...  How can one even describe it?  You're living in a fantasy-world of your own construction, where doing nothing somehow "outperforms"(?) a huge worldwide industry through empty talk, pretending to out-think the real experts while producing no power at all.  Crazy.  You sit around musing on the internet, posting like ten times a day, saying pretty much nothing the whole time.  Most of what you write reads to wind energy people like a series of excuses and diversions to hide the fact that you just don't have anything useful running.
      You endlessly cite a paper called "crosswind kite power" which could have stopped at the three words in its title - say those 3 words and you are done explaining it.  But you don't DO it.  The FIRST thing that pops into my head reading the words "crosswind kite power" is a loop of line around two pulleys located crosswind, a capstan (which could be one of the pulleys) driven by the line, with the line pulled back and forth (crosswind) by a kite flying back and forth "crosswind".  Yet, as far as I know nobody has tried it.  A billion dollars wasted so far on AWE or "crosswind kite power", and nobody has tried flying a kite crosswind back and forth to turn a generator?  Wait and it gets better:  You with your claims of being some sort of top researcher for over a decade and you just noticed that the turning radius might be an important factor at each end of the kite's travel?  I'm sorry but to me, the failure of AWE to live up to any normal standard is just amazing.  It's like an intellectual wasteland.  Hundreds or even thousands of people thinking they are so smart, most knowing almost nothing of the art they claim to have an improvement on, supposed "research" that in some cases never even produces any power, every major "project" disappearing, on schedule, the moment it is supposed to actually do what it's supposed to do... and nobody even mentioning that fact (except me).  Let me get this straight:  You've been hawking your various versions of "crosswind kite power" for like 12 years, and just now noticed that a kite flying back and forth could pull a cable better if it could turn around quicker at each end of the travel?  Wouldn't that be like the first thing someone would notice?  And yet you post like 10 times a day!  Its like a daily brain-dump but it;s actually more like just a daily dump, period.  When are you going to think of anything useful?  When will you get "a crosswind kite" flying and making some power.  People would really like to see it, even if it doesn;t work that great - maybe it will, but nobody will ever know if nobody tries it.  Maybe the first one will suck but subsequent versions could get better.  You will never know, if you never try.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      daveS said:  "Wind energy science as such is still a newborn baby"
      *** DougS replies: Wind energy science is at least 3000 years old that we know of and wind turbines formed the main non-animal source of industrial power for ~1000 years in Europe.  The "newborn baby" meme itself is getting pretty old.  Now a teenager, and will soon be too old to not have a job.  The real "newborn baby" is any wind energy wannabe "researcher" who talks endlessly but never makes any power even after (supposedly) "trying" for over a decade.  Some "babies" never mature.  They never learn.  They stay exactly the same, year after year after year.  Calling a mature art a "newborn baby" is just projecting one's own status of complete ignorance onto the rest of the world.  Sure, your 12-year "pro-tem" "president" will agree with such nonsensical statements, but what has he ever contributed to wind energy?  Because he can type the word "lift"?  Haven't heard from him in a few years.  I'm sure he's made great strides in wind energy during that time though, right?  Yeah sure. What, really, do any of you know about wind energy except that you haven't made any, in 12 years of "trying"?  (or was it a momentary 5 Watts?) Meanwhile real wind machines are up to 10 MegaWatts continuous output.  Keyword: "continuous".  Not "OK, time-out - we have to rewind everything now".
      Comments from the peanut gallery - of what use are they?  The more complex they get, the more ridiculous they are sounding.  How any angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Keep at it, maybe you can figure that one out.  What about "quantum physics"?  Woo-hoo - an over-the-hill newborn baby genius!  Being a fan of wind energy, or a self-described "researcher", or just an annoying "know-it-all" with nothing to show for 12 years of supposed "research" is not the same as being a knowledgeable practitioner of wind energy, nor a knowledgeable source for wind energy technical knowledge or information.  Dream on...


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25370 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/24033:

      "See this study on the topic: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aae102/meta: "Observation-based solar and wind power capacity factors and power densities" Lee M Miller and David W Keith. 

      See also GIEC report on http://report.ipcc.ch/sr15/pdf/sr15_spm_final.pdf , page 19/33, recommending increasing nuclear until 6 times."


      AWE's higher capacity factor thanks to more regular high altitude winds can be an asset.  
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25371 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug asks, "What about "quantum physics"?"
      Doug, KiteSat works well, despite phonon physics as a side study.

      Heck, a QM-inspired flipwing oscillator has already powered an entire Japanese (Seiko) power plant :) From milliwatts to terrawatts, QM concepts really are fertile for those who can apply them.

      Good luck making more power than everyone in AWE whose work you object to.



       

      daveS said: Ongoing conceptual progress in Kite Network theory would be far slower without applicable phonon physics.

      ***DougS replies:  In my opinion you are suffering from delusions of grandeur.  "Progress"?  Huh?  I do not think there has been any such progress.  In my opinion your pretense of applying "advanced physics" is nothing but a dodge or excuse for feigning AWE relevance while really getting nothing going.  Back to the piston engine:  Do engine designers spend a lot of time talking about "quantum phonons"?  Why or why not?  Did "The Wright Brothers" ever mention quantum phonons in getting their engine working right?  What's next?  Is there any obscure branch of theoretical physics you have not claimed to have mastered while still offering no working AWE system beyond the initial prototypes you so often mention that produced 5 Watts or less, more than a decade ago?  If they were relevant, why were they immediately given up on?  Because it's easier to endlessly post "brain dumps" on the internet, rather than build anything that works well?


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      Sounds like one more excuse to me.  The mythical "Professor Crackpot" character would similarly be unable to ever get anything real going, due to being "too advanced for the world to grasp".  Meanwhile, synchronized movement has always been part of machine design.  Just because parts of a machine move together does not imply they are a quantum bose-einstein condensate.  Are all of the atoms making up a piston-rod a "bose-einstein condensate"?  Why?  Because they all move together?  trillions of them?  Do i.c. engine designers try to pretend they are suddenly nuclear physicists?  Maybe you should concentrate on getting something working instead of hoping that posting the words "wright brothers" and "einstein" regularly will somehow magically run off on you.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25372 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25373 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Paper: System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a
      Great to see Fuzzification finally applied to AWES state estimation, as long ago discussed here. Welcoming ongoing progress in fuzzy-logic application in AWE, that this paper describes.



       

      System identification, fuzzy control and simulation of a kite power system with fixed tether length

      Tarek N. Dief, Uwe Fechner, Roland Schmehl, Shigeo Yoshida, 
      Amr M. M. Ismaiel, and Amr M. Halawa

      https://www.wind-energ-sci.net/3/275/2018/ 

      ======================== 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25374 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Paper: Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic
      Great experimental platform, towing is a key kite test method, but one must sometimes allow for lack of natural wind gradient. Noting use of National Instruments of Austin as the experimental control IO basis. Suggesting future testing account for further critical factors beyond mere aerodynamic efficiency, like assessing power-to-mass, capital cost, and so on, to get the most bang from this powerful testing platform.



       

      Automatic measurement and characterization of the dynamic properties of tethered membrane wings
      Jan Hummel, Dietmar Göhlich, and Roland Schmehl
      Wind Energ. Sci., 4, 41-55, https://doi.org/10.5194/wes-4-41-2019, 2019

      https://www.wind-energ-sci.net/4/41/2019/  

      =================================
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25375 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doubt
      Doug is unaware how directly Mechanical Engineering is being accelerated by advancing Phonon Science, as this search example shows in-text, and by the Phonons Conference Chair naturally being an ME, and the hosting department is ME as well-



      Review Forum discussion for detailed state-of-the-art conceptual integration of Phonon Science with AWES engineering.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25376 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: nuclear physics with regard to wind energy: article
      Wind has been historically proven as a primary energy basis of various brilliant civilizations, from Polynesia to the Dutch Golden Age. The cultures had small CO2 footprints without Nukes. Proponents of Nuclear Energy seem unable to imagine much less reinvent a future wind and solar driven civilization, free of grave Nuke defects like radioactive waste, and catastrophic events like Chernobyl and Fukushima.

      AWE's core R&D focus is tapping upper wind so effectively that global Nuke dependence is mostly reduced or eliminated. Anyone wanting Nukes to make up for their personal lack of AWE vision and hope is in the wrong field. The article author is a Nuke engineer with no apparent knowledge of Upper Wind potential, just conventional wind shortcomings. We will have both Nukes and Kites for a long time to come. Our community is about kites.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25377 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25378 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      Doug, all Kite Energy is phonon-based, there is no missing "phonon AWE system".. 

      Everywhere in a dynamical system that you can identify packets of stored elastic energy, those are Phonons. This can be tension and compression energy in air and polymer. It can be magnetic, gravitational, and electrical elastic forces in matter, at any scale.

      Yes, kite lattice waves are phonons, just like lattice waves in crystals, and they have a terrific future.  

      Good luck meeting your goals in AWE by complaining so much about "newborn babies", or perhaps dismissing Payne because he made no power, just patented more worthily.



       

      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25379 From: dougselsam Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      Dream on, my friend.  Big words are your excuse to do nothing.  That's the way I see it.
      Your scolding "lectures" hold no water and are nothing but your own attempt to amuse yourself.
      Phonons are hypothetical quantized sound "particles" that travel at the speed of sound.  Can you give an example?  How much energy does your "quantized sound packet" contain?
      Not every wave is a phonon.  Most are not.
      Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates".
      The world is full of synchronized movement - that is how machines work, no artificial buzzwords needed.
      You are way way off in la-la-land.  You have no lattice.  No lattice, with no waves.  No photons, gravitons, or phonons have been harmed or disturbed in any way in your "research".  Let alone electrons.  You should be proud.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382activity span .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 dd.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 dd.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 dd.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382last p span.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 div#ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 .ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 input, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1727400237 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382 #ygrps-yiv-1727400237ygrps-yiv-1827052129yiv7843894382ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25380 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      Doug, 

      Phonons are no more hypothetical than Photons or Electrons. Simply measure the elastic energy stored in a spring, if you somehow thought measuring a phonon was too complicated. Hint- kites can pull springs (make phonons).

      You just aren't yet a fan of the modern physics revolution. Go ahead and develop a superior kite physics of your own, and we'll honor that. You won't get credit for unending despair over the efforts of others. Instead fix your stalled ST R&D and be a contender. Resting on your PoPSci and T-Boone AWE claims is more dubious than any kite science you deny emotionally.

      Thanks for insisting on ever closer examination of kite physics on the AWES Forum, the best place to learn key fine points. Just stop being the most unhappy with the wonderful AWE community. Go find folks you like, if we can't meet your standard.




       

      Dream on, my friend.  Big words are your excuse to do nothing.  That's the way I see it.
      Your scolding "lectures" hold no water and are nothing but your own attempt to amuse yourself.
      Phonons are hypothetical quantized sound "particles" that travel at the speed of sound.  Can you give an example?  How much energy does your "quantized sound packet" contain?
      Not every wave is a phonon.  Most are not.
      Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates".
      The world is full of synchronized movement - that is how machines work, no artificial buzzwords needed.
      You are way way off in la-la-land.  You have no lattice.  No lattice, with no waves.  No photons, gravitons, or phonons have been harmed or disturbed in any way in your "research".  Let alone electrons.  You should be proud.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25381 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      Helping Doug to correct his persistent misimpressions about kite physics, 

      He writes, "Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates"."

      The correct view is that coherent synchronous motions obey Bose Einstein STATISTICS (BES) and Bose Einstein CONDENSATE (BEC) is just one BES example of many.  Doug is  very slow to grasp that BES is meant, but we are very patient. BEC is a loose analogy with packed kite states like stuffed-in-a-bag.


       

      Doug, 

      Phonons are no more hypothetical than Photons or Electrons. Simply measure the elastic energy stored in a spring, if you somehow thought measuring a phonon was too complicated. Hint- kites can pull springs (make phonons).

      You just aren't yet a fan of the modern physics revolution. Go ahead and develop a superior kite physics of your own, and we'll honor that. You won't get credit for unending despair over the efforts of others. Instead fix your stalled ST R&D and be a contender. Resting on your PoPSci and T-Boone AWE claims is more dubious than any kite science you deny emotionally.

      Thanks for insisting on ever closer examination of kite physics on the AWES Forum, the best place to learn key fine points. Just stop being the most unhappy with the wonderful AWE community. Go find folks you like, if we can't meet your standard.


      On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎19‎:‎20‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      Dream on, my friend.  Big words are your excuse to do nothing.  That's the way I see it.
      Your scolding "lectures" hold no water and are nothing but your own attempt to amuse yourself.
      Phonons are hypothetical quantized sound "particles" that travel at the speed of sound.  Can you give an example?  How much energy does your "quantized sound packet" contain?
      Not every wave is a phonon.  Most are not.
      Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates".
      The world is full of synchronized movement - that is how machines work, no artificial buzzwords needed.
      You are way way off in la-la-land.  You have no lattice.  No lattice, with no waves.  No photons, gravitons, or phonons have been harmed or disturbed in any way in your "research".  Let alone electrons.  You should be proud.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25382 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
      Sonic relativity in kites is not the speed of sound in air, but the speed of sound in polymer, up to 50x faster in tight line, or zero in slack line. This is very extreme sonic relativity, with obvious practical implications for direct kite control over distance.

      Debye temperature is another window in to quantum realm. UMWPE has a super-high Debye temp, well above ambient, ergo  BES.

      QM is formally the same thing as Matrix Mechanics, just fundamental working math for all sciences. Its false logic that formal QM application is a reliable marker of crackpot thinking, see Crackpot Index as a better predictor. We use state machines in control. Again, just tools in the hands of workers, no proper cause for trolling.

      Kite QM, relativity, thermodynamics, and chaos are causes for celebration, not complaint. We have no choice in kites but to be phononic engineers, so lets get good at it.



       

      Helping Doug to correct his persistent misimpressions about kite physics, 

      He writes, "Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates"."

      The correct view is that coherent synchronous motions obey Bose Einstein STATISTICS (BES) and Bose Einstein CONDENSATE (BEC) is just one BES example of many.  Doug is  very slow to grasp that BES is meant, but we are very patient. BEC is a loose analogy with packed kite states like stuffed-in-a-bag.
      On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎59‎:‎23‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      Doug, 

      Phonons are no more hypothetical than Photons or Electrons. Simply measure the elastic energy stored in a spring, if you somehow thought measuring a phonon was too complicated. Hint- kites can pull springs (make phonons).

      You just aren't yet a fan of the modern physics revolution. Go ahead and develop a superior kite physics of your own, and we'll honor that. You won't get credit for unending despair over the efforts of others. Instead fix your stalled ST R&D and be a contender. Resting on your PoPSci and T-Boone AWE claims is more dubious than any kite science you deny emotionally.

      Thanks for insisting on ever closer examination of kite physics on the AWES Forum, the best place to learn key fine points. Just stop being the most unhappy with the wonderful AWE community. Go find folks you like, if we can't meet your standard.


      On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎19‎:‎20‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      Dream on, my friend.  Big words are your excuse to do nothing.  That's the way I see it.
      Your scolding "lectures" hold no water and are nothing but your own attempt to amuse yourself.
      Phonons are hypothetical quantized sound "particles" that travel at the speed of sound.  Can you give an example?  How much energy does your "quantized sound packet" contain?
      Not every wave is a phonon.  Most are not.
      Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates".
      The world is full of synchronized movement - that is how machines work, no artificial buzzwords needed.
      You are way way off in la-la-land.  You have no lattice.  No lattice, with no waves.  No photons, gravitons, or phonons have been harmed or disturbed in any way in your "research".  Let alone electrons.  You should be proud.


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      "Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
      You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
      Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
      The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
      Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
      There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
      I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
      Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...