Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                              AWES2434to2483
Page 1 of 1.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2434 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/5/2010
Subject: Re: Autonomous crosswind AWECS flying

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2435 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/5/2010
Subject: Airborne Wind Energy Community and Companies

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2436 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Selsam's Myth- "nobody knows how to generate any power with kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2437 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Trashing Rube? No-o-o-o!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2438 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Autonomous crosswind AWECS flying

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2439 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Clear-Air Seeing of Jet-Layers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2440 From: dave santos Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Piloted G

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2441 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2442 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2443 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: What the market may need

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2444 From: John Oyebanji Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2445 From: Dan Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2446 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2447 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2448 From: Dan Parker Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2449 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2450 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: KitePower at TU Delft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2451 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: KitePower at TU Delft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2452 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Pilot

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2453 From: dave santos Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: TM RoboSpam, AWE Scams, & AWE Industry Ethics Code

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2454 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: What the market may need

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2455 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2456 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2457 From: Franklin Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Franklin FK Chen of Oakland, California

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2458 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2459 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2460 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2461 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Dynamic tensegrity in AWECS?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2462 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2463 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2464 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Dynamic tensegrity in AWECS?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2465 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2466 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress [2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2467 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress [2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2468 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Pilot

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2469 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2470 From: dave santos Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2471 From: dave santos Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Staged Launching & Landing Sequences for Giant KitePlanes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2472 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Line shuttle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2473 From: reinhartp Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: Line shuttle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2474 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2475 From: Dan Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Line shuttle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2476 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Why AWECS? Visions ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2477 From: Grant Calverley Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Why AWECS? Visions ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2478 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Why AWECS? Visions ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2479 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2480 From: dave santos Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Sparse v. Dense AWE Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2481 From: dave santos Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2482 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWECS] DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2483 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lta windpower




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2434 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/5/2010
Subject: Re: Autonomous crosswind AWECS flying

In 2009 Peter Lynn embedded some opinions that involved auto-pilots for traction kiting of ships. 

"though developing autonomous flying (kite auto-pilots) that will operate reliably in marginal and turbulent conditions is probably unachievable- but that in the end they will be defeated by wind's inherent variability."

His full essay here .

In 1930 in Popular Science there was a note about a celebratory kiting situation that had a goal of keeping a kite flying for three months.    SEE.   

Passive autonomy where the logic is strictly mechanical without electronic programs?

Autonomous crosswind piloting using logic that is embedded in electronic programs?

What else?

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2435 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/5/2010
Subject: Airborne Wind Energy Community and Companies

The Airborne Wind Energy Community and Companies
announces membership categories:

  • Academic institution and faculty: Free.  
  • Student level:  Free.  
  • For-profit AWECS developer:  Free.
  • AWE hobbyists at any scale: Free.

These memberships may donate as they see fit. Full information stream is open to members. Your membership invites exchange of information, safety-critical information, full participate in growing a common body of shared information through our web sites, and much more.  Included in a membership is free attendance at open-field fly-offs and AWECS demonstrations. Also, occasional newsletters are sent to your e-mail.  Founding AWEIA membership closes on December 31, 2010.    Internet conferences will remain free.    Your video URLs will be distributed free to all members.  Your essays and digital presentations will be hosted and made available to government, interested persons, visitors, and members.   At some point in time the membership will vote on various issues including the possibility of membership fees under a non-profit basis.    Members are free to post in the forum Files secton, Links section, photo section to help investors, developers, researchers, hobbyists, government works, energy buyers, AWECS users, etc.   And essays, etc. with illustrations are invited to be sent to

Editor        
@
UpperWindPower.com

The editor invites you to tell him what you need to have and see in order to move you to voluntarily use the PayPal button to donate at $1.36 level or $1.37 level or $3.33 level or $20   level.      Action may occur on:  http://energykitesystems.net/0subscribepay.html    Your membership is not affected by action of donation or not.   Thank you.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2436 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Selsam's Myth- "nobody knows how to generate any power with kite
Theo:
Clearly what you say is so compelling, with the amount of energy you can generate, and the high price it will command "offshore", why waste one more second talking about it on this list when you could be raking in all those dollars?
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2437 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Trashing Rube? No-o-o-o!
D.S.:
I was going to cite Dr. Suess as being the progenitor of today's technological sophistication, by planting the seeds in childrens' heads that anything their minds could think up could be drawn, then maybe built. But you have precluded me.
Yup Rube Goldberg - he got the name, but Dr. Suess had the true breakthroughs!
D.S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2438 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Autonomous crosswind AWECS flying
Joe:
You must be referring to Joby Energy's announcement that they are achieving autonomous crosswind flight with a small demo kite/glider. Wow I would have thought that was old news.
These ancient yet simple milestones you cite, such as keeping a kite aloft for 3 months, are exactly the types of milestones that I think would be important in any truly serious effort toward airborne wind energy. I could name many such milestones. Many of what appear to be milestones however might turn out to be leading down false paths not leading to success. Other milestones, perhaps not as obvious at first, might be the true markers of the successful path.
:)
Doug


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2439 From: Doug Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Clear-Air Seeing of Jet-Layers
Dave S.:
Our new facility in the high desert is at 3600 feet elevation, within a couple miles of the edge of the Cajon Pass.
You have no doubt heard about the inversion layer that forms in Southern California. We are in the layer above that stagnant layer, in the windy layer, so we get good winds up there and it is fresh air.
You can see the weather, clouds etc., blowing in at the same height as our site, with what are clouds for the people below becoming our fog banks, rivers of fog, like living in the sky.
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2440 From: dave santos Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Piloted G
Doug,
 
Its far easier & less useful to endlessly complain about an immature technology than it is to patiently mature it. You gave Theo no productive critique, just a taunt which applies to your own claims & situation. Lets agree that any AWE developer unwise enough to prematurely focus on regular commercial operation, rather than testing & improving the next prototype, is bound to fail.
 
In answer to Pierre about what might be the open path, compliant with Felker's conditions, to large-scale AWE-
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2441 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
Hello,

could you please change or add the new homepage of the TU Delft kitepower team:

www.kitepower.eu

It's not really finished yet, but it contains already a lot of information.

And the correct link to the team page is:
http://www.kitepower.eu/team.html


Regards:

Uwe Fechner
TU Delft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2442 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
Hello Doug,

I don't understand, why you are so pessimistic.

The nuclear fusion researchers claim, that they MIGHT produce power in
40 years, if they get another
7,2 BILLION euros (about 10 billion US dollar) for their research.

I think, the situation of high altitude wind power is much more positive.

One goal of my PhD studies is, to get a kite generator to work for at
least 24 hours without any manual
control. I want to achieve that within 3,5 years.

Many small problems still have to be solved, to be able to build a HAWP
generator, that is competitive to
the current wind turbines. But I think, that that is the way to go.

All the technical ingredients, that are needed to build such a generator
are available. The only thing, that is
needed, is to put all the things together in the right way (and we don't
know yet exactly, what the best
way will be).

Apart from implementing an automated control system, I am trying to
optimize the winch efficiency in
the moment. And each day I learn more and get a better understanding on
what needs to be done, and
my colleges improve the kite and the bridle and simulate new designs ...

Yes, there are a lot of things to be done, and we should share more of
our results (so that not every group
has to make the same mistakes again), and we need more time and money
for research and development.

I attended a workshop today, how to apply for research money from the
7th framework program from the
European union. I think, a joint effort of the European research groups
together with some companies could
speed up the development. But to organize this will need some time.

I am confident, that we will be successful before I retire in 2025.

Best regards:

Uwe Fechner
TU Delft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2443 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: What the market may need
You are compleatly right. Fanny is that I am focus on the same thinks http://www.awenergy.ru/index.php/en/the-news/2010-10-26-15-20-47 (translating coming soon)
Shrortly: 10kWt and 500m tether long
Alexander
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2444 From: John Oyebanji Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Angela <info@yg-networks.com Subject: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
To: coordinator@aweia.org


Dear Manager,

We are a Network Service Company which is the domain name registration center in Shanghai, China. On October,18th,2010, We received HUAXIA Company's application that they are registering the name "spiralairfoil" as their Internet Trademark and "spiralairfoil.cn","spiralairfoil.com.cn" ,"spiralairfoil.asia"domain names etc.,It is China and ASIA domain names.But after auditing we found the brand name been used by your company. As the domain name registrar in China, it is our duty to notice you, so I am sending you this Email to check.According to the principle in China,your company is the owner of the trademark,In our auditing time we can keep the domain names safe for you firstly, but our audit period is limited, if you object the third party application these domain names and need to protect the brand in china and Asia by yourself, please let the responsible officer contact us as soon as possible. Thank you!

Kind regards

Angela Zhang

Shanghai Office (Head Office)
Registration Department Manager 
3002, Nanhai Building 854.Nandan Road   
Xuhui District, Shanghai
Email: info@yg-networks.com

Anhui Office
Office:  +86 0553 4994789
Fax:     +86 0553 4994789
web:  http://yg-networks.com
web:  http://www.yg-networks.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2445 From: Dan Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
Angela,



So, let me get this right, because we've invented a new type of wind turbine that I've called the SpiralAirfoil and have created a web site of the same name you folks have run out in front of me and claimed the name SpiralAirfoil and it's derivatives to be able to embezzle money from me in order for me to use my own creative name to sell in china, this is parasitic to say the least, I suggest you go out and get a real job instead of living off other people, shame on you. I will simply create a new name when it comes time to enter the Chinese market. And I thought the Chinese people were honorable, you discredit your culture. Just to know, just how much did you want to embezzle from me in order for us to retain our name in China. Please take this amount and times it by a million and shove it where the sun don't shine. You are a net work dis service.

Truly not yours, Dan'l



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2446 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
Dan, China is famous for not being able to translate any of the concepts around intellectual property.  They have never been a part of the culture there.  Honor is generated other ways in that society.  Even the idea of messing with the trademark law to take advantage of busy developers is clearly a western development, popularized by cybersquatters.

Bob Stuart

On 7-Nov-10, at 8:49 AM, Dan wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2447 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

To Angela,                                      Nov. 6, 2010
     Please be on notice that for the international marketplace on the Internet there is to be only one SpiralAirfoil  domain use; the rights are owned and protected by Daniel Parker. Any infrigement on his rights will be costly for the abuser; notice will be given through ICANN and the courts as necessary.
 
The entire windpower industry is behind Daniel Parker's rights. His company operated both a forum with the name in Yahoo space and also the domain
http://www.spiralairfoil.com/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/spiralairfoil/
 
Your office would do well to properly advice your clients of the various costs that will be theirs upon violating the trademark and Internet rights of Daniel Parker with SpiralAirfoil.
In concert,
 
AWEIA International
UpperWindPower
EnergyKiteSystems
KiteLab Group
AWE Community
 
Thank you for peaceful international respect,
Joe Faust
Assistant to the Coordinator at AWEIA
CC: Mr. John Oyebanji, Mr. Daniel Parker
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2448 From: Dan Parker Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
Hi Bob Stuart,
 
                        Understood.
 
                                               Thanks Dan'l
 
  
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 09:29:57 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

 
Dan, China is famous for not being able to translate any of the concepts around intellectual property.  They have never been a part of the culture there.  Honor is generated other ways in that society.  Even the idea of messing with the trademark law to take advantage of busy developers is clearly a western development, popularized by cybersquatters.

Bob Stuart



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2449 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

We have updated to keep multiple links, hoping this is helpful:

TU Delft Kitepower

TU Delft Team page

TU Delft folder

  • Further change would be easy.  

  • We so greatly celebrate the progress and level of attention that TU Delft has been giving to airborne wind energy research!

  • These links are on on front pages:  www.energykitesystems.net    and also www.aweia.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2450 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: KitePower at TU Delft

http://www.kitepower.eu/team.html   What a fine team you have going!

 
Prof. Dr. Wubbo Ockels
Professor and chair holder
 
Dr. Roland Schmehl
Associate Professor
 
Jeroen Breukels, MSc
PhD researcher
 
Aart de Wachter, MSc
Project Manager
 
Barend Lubbers, MSc
Instrumentation and measurements engineer
 
Rolf van der Vlugt, MSc
kite operations engineer
 
Edwin Terink, MSc
Researcher Kite Dynamics
 
Stefan de Groot, MSc
Researcher Kite Dynamics
 
Uwe Fechner, MSc
Researcher kite control
 
John van den Heuvel, BSc
Kite Design Engineer
 
Jorn Baayen, BSc
MSc student Kite Control
 
Roland Verheul
Researcher Membrane Structures
 
Nana Saaneh
Management assistant

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2451 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: KitePower at TU Delft

... and top drawer publications:

http://www.kitepower.eu/publications.html 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2452 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Pilot
Dave S.:
I've always been the biggest cheerleader for AWE.
I gave Theo a taunt becuase he said I "just don't get it".
If ANYONE "gets it" I do.
It;s Theo who "doesn't get it", many people here who "don't get it".

When you "get it" in wind energy you know the power comes from hard airfoils traveling fast, across the wind in a circular path.
When you "get it" in wind energy you know reliability is your main concern.
When you "get it" in wind energy you realize that everybody in wind energy already works from 2 main facts:
1) The higher you go the more wind energy you can get, with almost unlimited potential, in an overwhelmingly vast resource, if only it can be captured;
2) Only a system that can generate economical power reliably is a contender.
3) There are always a million crackpots with fantastic ideas to get more power from the wind, most redundant with other crackpots, yet no matter how hard anyone talks about their ideas, only ideas that are developed and proven economical and reliable can make a difference.

If there's one field in which talk has no meaning til proven, it is in "advanced" wind energy. There is no field in which reality is less understood and fantasy more highly entertained.

The vastness of the resource is endlessly used to seeminlgy validate unworkable ideas - zero times any number, no matter how big, is still zero.

There is a similarly vast and inexhaustable resource in geothermal, in solar, and in other energy technologies. Energy is not and never was "scarce" it is all around us. The only thing that is "scarce" is our combined brainpower to know how to get the energy we need.

Yesterday I dropped a tower, pulled off 2 driveshafts, pulled a (burnt out) generator, rebuilt it, remounted the generator, reassembled the turbine, and tilted the tower back up, all in an hour and a half, after which the turbine was putting power back into the grid. I'll bet once it started up, in a light wind, at 300 Watts, it was making more power than all the airborne systems in the world at that moment.

Anyway I am not skeptical at all - why the heck do you think I just bought a giant new facility in the high desert (powered by a Bergey 10 kW turbine)? Why the heck do you think I started recording my AWE inventions decades ago, as a kid, and these exact inventions were resurrected recently by TU Delfts as new ideas? Why the heck do you think I have more AWE systems under patent protection than anyone in the world?

Skeptic? Surely you jest!

All I'm saying to all you NEWBIES is the real world of wind energy is 100% unforgiving and ideas either work or they don't then the hard part comes in - perfecting the ideas. Citing a vast resource is old old news and gets one not even to the first step. Citing the potential is NOT the same as accomplishing the extraction of energy, which is not the same as doing so economically, which IS the same as doing so reliably and consistently.

Don;t worry I will solve the problem and get the first reliable and economical AWE system up and running.
Meanwhile, you're right - go buy a Magnenn system, They have all the same reasoning provided by others why their system is best so why look further? What is their output at 27 mph again? Oh yeah they don;t say... I wonder why that is? I can't think of any legitimate wind energy system that does not cite a rated power at a given wind speed.

This is such a ludicrous conversation when you think about it.

In wind energy it is basically built it or shut up. Empty words make no power.
:)
The leading cheerleader for AWE,
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2453 From: dave santos Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: TM RoboSpam, AWE Scams, & AWE Industry Ethics Code
dan'l
 
No worry about this this sort of thing, your trademark rights are based on being first in a field to use a unique name. This is an automated scam based on the mere existence of your domain name. Surely no one in China is actually cares about the trademark, just robo-fishing for rubes. Mark this email as spam.
 
Lets be clear that overseas grifters are babes-in-the-woods compared to western artists (like Enron, say). We should focus scrutiny on hype-driven US based AWE scams pimping giant VTOL E-planes & Magnus-Effect LTA frauds to gullible investors. The wink-wink pay-to-play AWE Consortium is a haven for this sort of thing, with no professional ethics standards to follow. Its members have raised millions that would have been far better invested in due-diligence cultures in academia, aviation, & aerospace.
 
Stay tuned for a Draft of an AWE Industry Ethics Code, via AWEIA,
 
daveS
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2454 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: What the market may need
While at present there is no stably working AWECS, many inquisitive minds have chances to increase variety of ideas and projects. Trying to get first place, researchers often are carried away with giantism, peculiar to people from first half 20th century. As for me, the Bill Gates's success in a software technologies and Steve Jobs in a hard is more desirable when the optimum decision becomes the favourite majority. This gigantomania deserves true respect.

Such thoughts come to me when I think over the expression of requirements for AWECS.

1. Capacity

To the basic advantages of AWECS, in my opinion, concern:

- free energy generation possibility;

- energy generation possibility in any point of Earth.

Euphoria from the first advantage often overcast the second. Atmosphere and stratosphere as a matter of fact are the distributed power surface (over 11 km thikness). This system of distribution gives the chance to refuse land system of distribution of electric energy.It is necessary to choose the optimum decision between generated quantity of energy from one installation and quantity of end users. But taking in account that everybody want to drive they own car abd use personal computer, the aspiration to personification of electricity generation will be limited only by laws and danger to confuse tethers.
So, I define capacity the mass production AWECS in limits to 10 kw, i.e. maintenance of a family with energy, including heating, light, home appliances, mechanization of auxiliary operations.

2. Height of apparatus arrangement.

Statistical researches of atmosphere show stable growth of wind speed to height 500ì (a circumterraneous layer) and the subsequent sharp reduction of speed increase, i.e. the subsequent gain of height won't give a gain to height of an order of 5 km.

By modern technologies of energy transmission the level of 500 m becomes the most preferable height of apparatus flight.

http://awenergy.ru/index.php/en/the-news/expression-of-requirements
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2455 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
UWE:
I COMPLETELY disagree and I think you are COMPLETELY wrong.
The idea that money is needed is false. It is this false trail of paper that has led everyone astray.
People should be locked into a workshop and building small models til they get something to work at a small scale.
The money is a distraction.
Think of the airplane.
Who got it to work, the highly-funded Langley or the broke Wright Bros?. Langley was undoubtedly hampered by ignorance and papeerwork.

How hard is it to make a balsa wood model? Yet it proves the concept.
Once you have the working balsa wood model, you put a little motor on it, maybe radio controls - hey you are up to a few hundred bucks, and you can prove your while new flying aircraft model.
Or you could make excuses forever and apply for million dollar aviation grants.
Say you want to build a working wind turbine.
You could prove your concept for a few hundred bucks.

This remains true for flying wind energy - sure it's possible that it can only be achieved with millions of dollars but not likely. A truly workable and reliable system is likely to turn out to be so simple that a working model could be built on a desktop for a few dollars, just as a model airplane, kite, or wind turbine can today, just not all 3 combined yet since nobody has gotten the perfect design to work.
Although I did show for a few hundred bucks at last year's AWE conference that a working system could be at least up and flying for a few hundred bucks. So please don't call me a skeptic.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2456 From: Doug Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
THIS IS AN INTERNET SCAM.
Well-known.
Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2457 From: Franklin Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Franklin FK Chen of Oakland, California
Structural requirements hugely in favor of the wind kite. Reaching the height of installed wind turbines requires marginal cost compared to the cost of turbine towers. At turbine elevation, ground effects and turbulence are not an additional factor. Noise may be.

Franklin FK Chen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2458 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress
 
Videos in support of the presentation in 2010 made
by Pierre Benhaïem at the
XXI World Energy Congress
held in Montreal, Canada, September 12-16, 2010

These illustrate the presentation

Much thanks to Pierre for sharing the presentation and also for carrying the AWE Community's message to the energy world ... with such quality.  Surely your fortitude will advance AWECS.     Questions to Pierre are invited.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2459 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name
Greetings All,
Business is a slippery thing, I trademarked our company name, Airbine, and patented my idea here in the US also, but I could not afford to do so all over the world. right now there is a company that strted up with the name Airbine in England a couple of weeks after our name was published. Unless I trademark and patent in every country and or file international patents, then out side of the US there is no protection. Out side the US they dont respect intellectual property the way we do and if I filed all over the world I would have spent tens of thousands more. I look at my patent and trademark as a right to do my thing without anybody stopping here in the US only. Even here in the US a challenger can make claims on my ttrademark if i dont use it, it is my understanding it is possible to loose a lot of intellectual rights if you dont use them.
Spacecannon




---- Dan Parker <spiralairfoil@hotmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2460 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notice of Intellectual Property-Trademark Name

In some circles there will be only one Airbine  for international AWECS pointing.
http://www.trademarkia.com/airbine-77897752.html

 

The Irish boys--father and son--are not apparently airborne tethered aviation based with their "Airbine Energy" upstart.
Any of their "airbine"  promo may tend to bring people to the real Airbine company :  ). 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2461 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Dynamic tensegrity in AWECS?

My head begins to hurt approaching this topic, but some clever people may one day well use dynamic tensegrity for control of AWECS or energy gathering in tethered aircraft. Perhaps control of the tenserity structures in an AWECS will play.  The ache comes in tether considerations, wing matters, control matters, ...      String and strut can get complicated!   Tendons and bars.  Tendons and bones.  But not just statically, but dynamically with sensors and actuators do wild dances ....some stably, some with severe instabilities, both of which the tinkerer or engineer could bless AWE.

Perhaps your head won't hurt.

Starters:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2462 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress
Joe,
 
Thank you for the presentation.
 
I tried to make an insertion in my website (but without success) of the initial powerpoint with enregistred comments (what I said in Montreal) and joined videos.
 
Pierre B
 
 
 
 
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2463 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress

Two of the above video filenames apparently did not fly because of space marks and accent marks.

Here are two files to replace:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/videos/Eolicarerotationhelice0001.wmv    The apparent odd bent turbine blade is an oddity of the video timing when actual straight blades were used.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/videos/multimetre.wmv

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2464 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Dynamic tensegrity in AWECS?


Then combine, perhaps, some of the following  in advanced AWECS:

http://www.esands.com/Newsletters/GEO/FibreOpticSensing.html

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2465 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress
Here are videos;the correspondent powerpoint will be sent by soon.Can you read the videos on the PDF (me no)?
 
PierreB
  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2466 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress [2
I could not fetch the videos from the Word master and I did not attach them to the PDF; that is the reason all the videos
are provided as shown linked in the message post.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2467 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress [2

Here is the presentation in PowerPoint; six of the video portions played during Slideshow choice for me. But two or three of the others did not play for me, as I may not have the codec for the .avi

http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/ProjetEOLICARE.pptx     20 Mb    ...for some computers this will take more time to see than others.  But it is worth it.  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2468 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Let the Baby Grow (Doug's Myth, Pierre's Question, & Human-Pilot
Doug schrieb:
Doug didn't understand my point. This is my fault not his.
...
In my experiments this was was noticeable in light winds. We went
kite-sailing in Keith Stewart's Kite Yacht in practically zero surface
wind when eveybody else was standing still. We did have buoyant kites.
Our problem with these was managablity in high winds.

My point in the last messages ist that we are mostly talking about
grid-connected land-based power. Then you are competing with extremely
cheap dirty power and lots of con-jobs. The Swiss power companies are
for example successful in selling coal-derived power as hydro power by
"laundering" it first in pumped storage plants. But when you ask them
why they need yet more pumped storage, they say "to store wind power"!

In self-contained systems, i.e. land-based not grid connected or marine,
the power costs a lot more and in a leisure or even luxury market the
price of the power can be even higher. Therefore these are good
applications to try out AWE economically. After all, WE is tried and
proven in marine transportation since thousands of years.

...
Keeps us on our toes! :-) But please folks snip off your bottom quotes.

Cheers, Theo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2469 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: OrthoKiteBunch presentation at 2010 XXI World Energy Congress
On my computer the file works perfectly and with videos.For looking the presentation and hearing my (bad) accent:mode "diaporama" (slideschow).So it would be possible making presentations without speaker,without travel,without CO² emissions.
 
Pierre
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2470 From: dave santos Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics
 
Dear AWE practitioner,
 
The following DRAFT Code of Ethics for AWEIA (& AWE generally) is based on that of the American Institute of Professional Geologists. Please review & offer suggestions to best tailor this to AWE. The document will be a working text subject to member ratification & ongoing amendment. Thanks to John Oyebanji, President Pro Tem of AWEIA, for encouragement in this effort.
 
It is hoped that AWE players who embrace these standards will enjoy a credibility & competative advantage over those who do not,
 
dave santos
KiteLab Group
AWEIA Member
 
Cc: John Oyebanji
 

(October 5, 2003)
 
PREAMBLE
Members of the Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) Industry Association (AWEIA) are dedicated to the highest standards of personal integrity and professional conduct. The Associations’s Code of Ethics comprises three parts: the Canons, which are broad principles of conduct; the Ethical Standards, which are goals to which Members aspire; and the Rules of Conduct. Compliance with the Rules of Conduct is mandatory and violation of any Rule will be grounds for disciplinary action by the Association. Under the Bylaws, the Institute may also impose discipline for legal violations and because of the suspension or revocation of registration or licensure, among other grounds. Disciplinary action may take the form of private admonition, public reprimand, suspension of membership, or termination. The Code of Ethics applies to all professional activities of Members and Adjuncts, wherever and whenever they occur. The title “Member” where used in this Code of Ethics shall include Adjuncts. A Member shall not be relieved of an ethical responsibility by virtue of his or her employment, because the Member has delegated an assignment to a subordinate, or because the Member was not involved in performing services for compensation.
CANON 1. General Obligations
Members should be guided by the highest standards of personal integrity and professional conduct.
STANDARD 1.1
Members should pursue honesty, integrity, loyalty, fairness, impartiality, candor, fidelity to trust, inviolability of confidence, and honorable conduct as a way of life.
Rule 1.1.1 By applying for or by continuing Membership in the Association, a Member agrees to comply with and uphold this Code of Ethics.
CANON 2. Obligations To The Public
Members should uphold the public health, safety, and welfare in the performance of professional services, and avoid even the appearance of impropriety.
STANDARD 2.1
Members should observe and comply with the requirements and intent of all applicable laws, codes, and regulations.
Rule 2.1.1 A Member shall not knowingly participate in harmful activities such as AWE environmental abuse or militarization, or knowingly permit the development of such purposes.
Rule 2.1.2 A Member shall neither offer nor make any illegal payment, gift, or other valuable consideration to a public official for the purpose of influencing a decision by such official; nor shall a Member accept any payment, gift, or other valuable consideration that would appear to influence a decision made on behalf of the public by the Member acting in a position of public trust.
Rule 2.1.3 If a Member becomes aware of a decision or action by an employer, client, or colleague which violates any law or regulation, the Member shall advise against such action, and when such violation appears to materially affect the public health, safety, or welfare, shall advise the appropriate public officials responsible for the enforcement of such law or regulation.
STANDARD 2.2
Members should be accurate, truthful, and candid in all communications with the public.
Rule 2.2.1 A Member shall not knowingly engage in false or deceptive advertising, or make false, misleading, or deceptive representations or claims in regard to the AWE profession or which concern his or her own professional qualifications or abilities or those of other technologists.
Rule 2.2.2 A Member shall not issue a false statement or false information which the Member knows to be false or misleading, even though directed to do so by an employer or client.
Rule 2.2.3 A Member shall avoid making sensational, exaggerated, and or unwarranted statements that may mislead or deceive members of the public or any public body.
STANDARD 2.3
Members should participate as citizens and as professionals in public affairs.
Rule 2.3.1 A Member acting in a position of public trust shall exercise his or her authority impartially, and shall not seek to use his or her authority for personal profit or to secure any competitive advantage.
STANDARD 2.4
Members should promote public awareness of the effects of AWE on the quality of life.
CANON 3. Obligations To Employers And Clients
Members should serve their employers and clients faithfully and competently within their overall professional and ethical obligations.
STANDARD 3.1
Members should disclose any actual or potential conflicts of interest that may affect their ability to serve an employer or client faithfully.
Rule 3.1.1 A Member shall disclose to a prospective client the existence of any owned or controlled AWE investment or other interest that may, either directly or indirectly, have a pertinent bearing on such employment.
Rule 3.1.2 A Member having or expecting to have beneficial interest in a property on which the Member reports shall state in the report the fact of the existence of such interest or expected interest.
Rule 3.1.3 A Member employed or retained by one employer or client shall not accept, without that employer’s or client’s written consent, an engagement by another if the interests of the two are in any manner conflicting.
STANDARD 3.2
Members should protect, to the fullest possible extent, the interest of an employer or client so far as is consistent with the public health, safety, and welfare and the Member’s legal, professional, and ethical obligations.
Rule 3.2.1 A Member shall not use, directly or indirectly, any confidential information obtained from or in the course of performing services for an employer or client in any way which is adverse or detrimental to the interests of the employer or client, except with the prior consent of the employer or client or when disclosure is required by law.
Rule 3.2.2 A Member who has made an investigation for an employer or client shall not seek to profit economically from the information gained without written permission of the employer or client, unless it is clear that there can no longer be a conflict of interest with the original employer or client.
Rule 3.2.3 A Member shall not use his or her employer’s or client’s resources for private gain without the prior knowledge and consent of his or her employer or client.
STANDARD 3.3
Members should serve their employers and clients competently.
Rule 3.3.1 A Member shall perform professional services or issue professional advice that is only within the scope of the education and experience of the Member and the Member’s professional associates, consultants, or employees, and shall advise the employer or client if any professional advice is outside of the Member’s personal expertise.
Rule 3.3.2 A Member shall not give a professional opinion or submit a report without being as thoroughly informed as might be reasonably expected, considering the purpose for which the opinion or report is requested.
Rule 3.3.3 A Member shall engage, or advise an employer or client to engage, and cooperate with other experts and specialists whenever the employer’s or client’s interests would be best served by such service.
STANDARD 3.4
Members should serve their employers and clients diligently and perform their services in a timely manner.
STANDARD 3.5
Members who find that obligations to an employer or client conflict with professional or ethical standards should have such objectionable conditions corrected or resign.
CANON 4. Obligations to Professional Colleagues
Members should respect the rights, interests, and contributions of their professional colleagues.
STANDARD 4.1
Members should respect and acknowledge the professional status and contributions of their colleagues.
Rule 4.1.1 A Member shall give due credit for work done by others in the course of a professional assignment, and shall not knowingly accept credit due another.
Rule 4.1.2 A Member shall not plagiarize another in oral and written communications, or use materials prepared by others without appropriate attribution.
STANDARD 4.2
Members should be accurate, truthful, and candid in all communications with others regarding professional colleagues.
Rule 4.2.1. A Member shall not issue (a) false statement(s), (a) misleading statement(s), or (a) sensational, exaggerated, defamatory, and or unwarranted statement(s) regarding a professional colleague. Differences of opinion occur and statements regarding opinions should be restricted to and based on logical and scientific principles and should be made in a respectful and professional manner.
CANON 5. Obligations to the Institute and the Profession
Members should continually strive to improve the AWE profession so that it may be of ever increasing benefit to society.
STANDARD 5.1
Members should strive to improve their professional knowledge and skills.
STANDARD 5.2
Members should cooperate with others in the profession and encourage the dissemination of geological knowledge.
STANDARD 5.3
Members should work toward the improvement of standards of geological education, research, training, and practice.
STANDARD 5.4
Members should not only uphold these standards of ethics by precept and example but also encourage by counsel and advice to other Members, their adherence to such standards.
STANDARD 5.5
Members having knowledge of a violation of these Rules by another Member should bring substantiated evidence of such violation to the attention of the Institute.


 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2471 From: dave santos Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Staged Launching & Landing Sequences for Giant KitePlanes
 
Those who design giant kiteplanes face daunting landing & takeoff challenges. There is just not enough lift or control authority near the ground. Safety & reliability by complex fight automation is way out of reach. Even small crack-ups can negate the business model. Some possible end-to-end solutions are based on sequenced kitetrain stages with passive stabilities.
 
Here is a current scenario- A massive anchor turret holds the giant kiteplane in its cradle. First a tiny blimp rises from the Kiteplane fuselage & initiates a "packed" train of sparred  lifter kites from out of  the "box" up into good wind. Lift peaks at the required force by winching hard against the train & the giant kiteplane is lifted bodily aloft. Climbing, it soon sustains flight by its own lift. 
 
At operating altitude the giant kiteplane sweeps freely in power generating mode, with with the kite-train above it providing a passive pilot function. As wind freshens the upper train passively furls. By an elastic aft bridle, the pilot blimp trails by its nose in gale-force.
 
To land the Giant Kiteplane passively "ziplines" to its anchor-point, a nice solution for sudden control-emergencies. The upper-train retracts with curtain-like drawlines, at low force. In fitful calm the launch/land sequence rests with partially deployed top kites & mini-blimp, for early full restart.
 
Everthing lands in reversed take-off sequence & ends up nicely stack-packed for relaunch. The launch/land automation is simpler (smaller state machine) than autonomous VTOL/STOL landing of giant high-speed electric kiteplanes.
 
coolIP
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2472 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Line shuttle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqtRe1DeY60

Take batteries up for charging?  Bring them down. Send more up?

Take hang glider pilot up to wing?

Etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2473 From: reinhartp Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: Line shuttle
Also google on "kite messenger" for wind powered shuttles. I have a couple of those, one with a max. payload of 5 kg :-)
Fun to drop some parachuted things or water balloons


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2474 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/8/2010
Subject: Re: DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics
Was there something supposed to be attached here or are you implying our code of ethics is to be blank.




---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2475 From: Dan Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Line shuttle
Hi Joseph,

Very nice video, simple, efficeint and happy shiny people.

Dan'l

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2476 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Why AWECS? Visions ...

Why AWECS?    Visions:

Here is a starter:
http://www.kitegen.com/en/   ELECTRICAL ACCESS: THE RAW MATERIAL FOR DEMOCRACY

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2477 From: Grant Calverley Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Why AWECS? Visions ...
Hi Joe,
This is a great essay on the big picture vision for AWE and other renewables. Thanks for posting it.
 
There are some great statistical databases that really prove the point that energy use and poverty (or inversely prosperity) are tightly linked.  It is not really a widely discussed item in the NGO world. Without affordable and ample energy development is not really possible.  Below is a great TED talk on the subject.  In it there is a brief part where he shows how carbon use identically tracks key indicators of prosperity and health over the last century.  It is an eyeopener.
 
 
You can easily down load the same software he used in the talk from this site and do your own analysis.
 
The executive summary of this paper also links energy and poverty.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2478 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Why AWECS? Visions ...
Electricity is a form of energy, and energy is used to manipulate materials.  Democracy is a political system which is often used as camouflage for other systems that are at work to reduce equality.  If we woke up tomorrow to find that all land and other assets had been evenly redistributed, and everyone had a share in a local kite-generated, demand-regulated energy system, we would still need to organize to frustrate the greedier people.  The history of "civilization" is pretty much the history of more extreme social divisions and exploitation.

Bob Stuart

On 9-Nov-10, at 9:24 AM, Joe Faust wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2479 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Lta windpower
 
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2480 From: dave santos Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Sparse v. Dense AWE Arrays
Take a 2mw single-tether kiteplane (like Joby's model) operating under a 2000ft ceiling. To keep safely clear of neighbors it occupies a circular plot near a mile across. Presume a 3x3 array of nine kiteplanes for 18mw from a 3 mile square kitefarm. The same land developed with conventional 5mw HAWTs, spaced normally, could develop greater than 100mw, presuming that better wind capacity-factor aloft roughly offsets the lowered system availibility of complex delicate aircraft. Conventional HAWTs win overwhelmingly in raw land efficiency without even touching the upper-wind. However, the same land & airspace the nine kiteplanes sparsely occupy can be densely packed with airborne turbines or wingmills, in string latticework based on classic kite methods, for over a rated gigawatt. AWE arrays of cross-linked semi-captive elements seem to have a fantastic advantage in space-efficiency, not just safety & control, over single-tether designs.
 
I used crude geometric methods to estimate these figures, so it will be fun to see how well someone else's calculations coincide. A suggestive guesstimate is that there is well over a gigawatt average in a tiny mid-lat crosswind patch of sky, just 100m across & 10km high.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2481 From: dave santos Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lta windpower
This is a far more powerful & sensible design than Magenn, but there is still the problem of lifting gas dependence. We have reached "Peak Helium" & need the wonder-gas for better uses, like medical MRI. Hydrogen is a headache. LTA is a very expensive form of aviation. 
 
KiteLab's favored LTA concept is a turbine-lander suspended under a COTS aerostat. The lander is raised & lowered by halyard.


From: Pierre Benhaiem <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
 
 
PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2482 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWECS] DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics
Dave, the draft was not at the bottom of the email I received, thats why I asked. Do you really want to start this argument again? This pacifist liberal progressive bend is nowhere man. Humans dont naturally operate that way, and socialism doesnt work. You would think the greenies would understand natural selection and how only the strong survive. Wake up, "good guys" is relative to the side you are on, what do you think other countries think of when they think of who the good guys are? Do the Iranians think we are the good guys or do they have some one else in mind?

Im not saying war is good or that innocents dont die in war, but I would rather be on the winning side even if it means dropping the bomb like in WW2. Figure out which side you are on then back them even if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, cause winning in war is a lot better than loosing.
Lynn


---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com  
The draft was right there at the bottom of the message. This note sent off-forum, since yours is a non-kite related question.
 
You will probably once again object to the global anti-militarization AWE ethic, so keep in mind that modern armies average about a 20-to-one kill ratio over *noncombatants*, & tyrannical govts & terrorists will abuse lethal kite tech imitated from "good guys".
 
There is easy military R & D taxpayer money available (like WindLift's million) without fighting AWEIA's proposed ethics. AWEC is the military-industrial investor group, with no ethics barrier.
 
d



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "spacecannon@san.rr.com" <spacecannon@san.rr.com To:
Cc: dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, November 8, 2010 11:02:32 PM
Subject: Re: [AWECS] DRAFT AWEIA Code of Ethics

Was there something supposed to be attached here or are you implying our code of ethics is to be blank.




---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2483 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

The company's white paper has some comments that will get attention in group, my guess:

Their white paper is being studied.    Paper by Nykolai Bilaniuk, Ph.D., P.Eng. CEO, LTA Windpower

     Commentary by JpF about the white paper: Right off, I liked the focused point rephrased here that among AWECS, they cannot all be equally promising for a stated purpose or target goal.  He predicts a shakeout in AWECS to a success set of one or none.

     Attention: The author's set of reviewed AWECS methods that are feasible today is the null set; but he proposes that LTA Windpower has a direction that can become successful.   Asphodel Norwood has been cordially invited to join discussions.     JpF

Our study file:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/LTAwindpowerINC/index.html