Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 24219 to 24269 Page 376 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24219 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24220 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24221 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Dr Harrop's new AWE Webinar

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24222 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Flapping hydro power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24223 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: "Race for Water" Kite Sailing Circumnavigation of the World cont

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24224 From: Lukas Zeidler Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: "Race for Water" Kite Sailing Circumnavigation of the World cont

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24225 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24226 From: tallakt Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24227 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24228 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: He is exploring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24229 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: He is exploring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24230 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24231 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24232 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24233 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post//  Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24234 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24235 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: William G. Roeseler

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24236 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: William G. Roeseler

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24237 From: dougselsam Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24238 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Gin Shaman Hybrid ("monoskin" & cell) Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24239 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24240 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Flapping hydro power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24241 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24242 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Gin Shaman Hybrid ("monoskin" & cell) Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24243 From: dougselsam Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24244 From: dougselsam Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24245 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Александр Владимирович Губанов

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24246 From: Rod Read Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24247 From: Rod Read Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24248 From: dougselsam Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24249 From: dougselsam Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24250 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: US9389132B1

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24251 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Tethered wing structures complex flight path

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24252 From: tallakt Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: US9389132B1

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24253 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24254 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24255 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: [AWES] Александр Владимирович Губано

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24256 From: dougselsam Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24257 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: US9389132B1

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24258 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Tethered wing structures complex flight path

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24259 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Birth of Hawaian KiteSurfing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24260 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24261 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Kite Window States

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24262 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Unit-KiteFarm Process Control (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24264 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: TUDelft VTOL Launch Assist Paper

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24265 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: TUDelft VTOL Launch Assist Paper

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24266 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: He is exploring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24267 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Rethinking AWES Lifecycle Assumptions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24268 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Surfer Today surveys Roots of KiteSurfing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24269 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2018
Subject: Visualizing Kite Lattice Waves (Networked Kites)




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24219 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources
A bit of background to this WindLift news: I was perhaps the first figure directly invited by the US Army to participate in their AWE R&D, but turned them down based on the conviction that kite energy should not be militarized (AWE Military Moratorium). Rob, who I was already in contact back then, founded WindLift and took the Army work, based on his family tradition of military service. We learn in this new source that WindLift military funding has now reached 2.3M USD. Providentially, from my point of view, Windlift has not succeeded in creating a viable military asset, since Rob's background in molecular biology was not ideal to lead in an innovative aviation technology.

The WindLift Item-

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2018/11/21/morrisvilles-windlift-closes-on-125000-debt-raise/

Endnote- The US Army's Futures Command, a new "brain center" of innovative warfare tech, has located in Austin, so stay tuned for further information on a dialogue between our pacifist local culture and the Army's leading tech thinkers. I will soon be advocating to them the strategic reformulation of world militarism, away from mass lethality, toward mass humanitarian response to global natural disasters, by means of kites, while resolutely opposing the adaptation of kites to modern war. AWE should be to comfort victims, not create them.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24220 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
Doug's Sky Serpent clearly had a groundgen at its base. I did not see it connected to any load, but that's ok; it could have been anytime when I was not inspecting it. Where is the exact misrepresentation Doug claims? The main critique of the ST AWES architecture has nothing to do with its connection history, but to the poor scaling potential of a driveshaft to upper wind, by low power-to-mass and angular-velocity. Typically, Doug stated he was leaving the Forum, but remains engaged, promoting empty argument. Perhaps the best effect of this dynamic is that less-diligent observers of AWE are driven away, while the most-diligent hang in there.

Good Luck to Doug succeeding in AWE on merits claimed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24221 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Dr Harrop's new AWE Webinar
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24222 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Flapping hydro power
Pierre, I am happy with any kind of AWES prototype, no more a new flapping version than Makani's M600. They are all needed under the "test-everything" ethos.

Baptiste, This is a welcome new link in the class of flapping wings (wingmills). Thanks to JoeF's special insight, have come to define any wing in action as embodying the the universally applicable kite principle represented in its abstract force diagram (thus a glider carries its own "anchor" in its CG), and we further see any wing in water as a water-kite (paravane or hydrofoil), with common fluid-dynamics.

The Eel Team is clearly onto a fertile design space (physics that birds and fish share), but are experimenting too elaborately to test endless variations at highest pace. Their wings should eventually tend to resemble higher AR precedents in our circles, dating back over a decade, also tested underwater. "FlipWings" are claimed to have the highest power-to-weight potential of any WECS known.

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24223 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: "Race for Water" Kite Sailing Circumnavigation of the World cont
Thanks again, Baptiste.

Circumnavigating the globe by kite and solar panel is the sort of tangible AWE progress on the timeframe the best analysts have expected. SkySails continues to lead by example, and Dave Culp (KiteShip) continues to be validated as the modern father of ongoing ship-kite progress. This is only the most evident progress- several added players continue their own ship-kite development.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24224 From: Lukas Zeidler Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: "Race for Water" Kite Sailing Circumnavigation of the World cont

There's also airseas, an airbus spinoff since september. https://www.airseas.com/
(I know you were talking about tangible progess, but I just wanted to put it out there as it's new and probably some people haven't heard of it yet.

On 2018-11-25 19:19, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24225 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?
Tallak, 
      Be signed in; then post. Consider first saving text file of your composition in case something happens..  Upon posting, the next screen should have a short-lived note that tells one that one's post did go through.  


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@tveide.net
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24226 From: tallakt Date: 11/25/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?
I am definitively signed in. Iam just unable to write anything sometimes. Happens on my phone and laptop..
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24227 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?
1.  Direct email: 
airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
2. Or try alternative browser?
3. Are other programs active?   
4. Connection challenges? 

The kind of challenge described is new to my view.   Thanks for describing the challenge. 

Best, 
 Joe

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@tveide.net
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24228 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: He is exploring
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24229 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: He is exploring
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24230 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2018
Subject: Re: Why am I not able to reply to messages in this forum?
1. Consider using direct email to the group: 
airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com


2. Browser choice?   

Best, 
 Joe
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24231 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
A silly conversation. 
1) You often castigate people for not starting a new thread when topics evolve - look at the topic of this message.  Why is it OK for you to break any "rule", but not for others?

2) Thanks for finally admitting the obvious (Sky Serpent had a generator at Oroville in 2008), now that I'm finally allowed to even speak on this forum again, to counter your previous disinformation.

3) You still go on about how things may or may not have been arranged, in my demo 10 years ago, including whether you "saw" which wire was connected to what.  My point is you started by saying there was not even a generator at all, which is so absurd that I see no reason why anyone would take anything you say about it seriously after that.  If you can't see a generator the size of a watermelon that is the closest part to you, why would anyone expect you to "notice" wire connections? 
You're still hanging on to your third fallback position: You said "Doug's Sky Serpent clearly had a groundgen at its base. I did not see it connected to any load, but that's ok; it could have been anytime when I was not inspecting it." - This line of conversation continues to be silly.  If you were looking right at it, and didn't even know it had a generator, of course you would be unlikely to notice what that generator was connected to.  Silly, silly, silly.  And I only use that word because I have a sense of humor.

4) Please consider if your worry is about people being "driven away", implying nobody should stand up to your slanderous false statements, try not making the false statements in the first place.  There was no reason for you to have ever started making these statements.  If standing up for truth, and defending reality by providing photographic evidence is a problem for you, well, that kind of makes the point, doesn't it?  Facts seem to be a problem for you.  Thank goodness for cameras, newspapers, etc.

5) An honest person exhibiting good will would have apologized years ago and admitted they were in error to denigrate the only working demo at the first World High Altitude Wind Energy Conference by making a series of obviously false statements about it, each indicating it was incapable of generating electricity, when such was clearly not the case.  I guess the other possibility is you were aware that the statements were false when you made them.

7) One more photographic link to a newspaper picture of the Sky Serpent at Oroville 2008, showing the generator:


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Good Luck to Doug succeeding in AWE on merits claimed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24232 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
Woops I meant Oroville in 2009, not 2008. If I am going to insist on factual statements, I'd better be sure my own facts are right.  :)  Anyway, this is an example of how easy it is to keep your credibility intact: if you realize you said something wrong, just admit it and move on.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24233 From: dougselsam Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post//  Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax)
The reasons executives and employees do not respond on this forum or most other forums would seem to be that the word came down from the top that any public statements made by them could come back to bite the company by diluting, or in any way calling into question, the "story" the company or agency endeavors to promote.

In the early days of the internet, we had more free conversation.  Like a vanished "golden age" of open communication.  We had NREL scientists and research people regularly chiming in their opinion on wind energy chat groups.  Suddenly we stopped hearing from them.  It was obvious that someone in higher authority had decided they might muck up "the story" and should therefore be silenced.

Imagine some company raising millions of dollars on the basis that "next year" they "are going to" power "X thousand homes" in remote area Y, using their hoped-for workable airborne wind energy apparatus Z.  They have to very carefully stick to their "story" or investors might be able to take legal action on the basis of fraud.  All it might take is a single online slip by a low-level employee to render their "story" as knowingly overoptimistic. 

Still, ever notice how often we see these promises-in-advance of powering a given community, but never an announcement that tells why it isn't going to happen after all?  Or why it didn't happen?  Is this approach honest?  Do they realize, at some point, their credibility may expire, due to using this tactic?

I think this forum would do well to archive then re-examine these repeated statements that are very similar to each other, such as a company saying they will be powering a certain number of homes at site X, giving dates that so far have come and gone with no such thing happening, and ask for the requisite follow-up information, based on the original public statements, as to what IS taking place now that the stated dates have arrived (or passed).  By not asking for follow-through on the status of the subject of the statements made, the forum becomes almost an accomplice-by-omission of whatever fraud might be taking place.  If these companies want to act so intimidating, whereby interested parties stand back in awe and repeat the statements ad infinitum, by repeatedly making a series of statements so similar that they are almost identical except for the names, places, number of homes, and dates, (or sometimes with the same locations, multiple times) maybe the most effective role a forum such as this could have might be to hold their feet to the fire, as in:  OK company X, you told the world that on date Y you would be powering Z houses using technology Q, so what is the update now that date Y is here?  Enquiring minds want to know.  Seems to me that if such a basic question is somehow a forbidden topic, where the heck are we as a forum for discussing the topic?  That should be an important part of discussing AWE.  Separating the wheat from the chaff, and identifying who has been credible in hindsight is important information for decision-makers and the many interested people (such as me) sitting on the edge of our seats with anticipation after hearing the statements of future power production.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24234 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/27/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources
Right on, DaveS;
Unfortunately, no matter how much some of us stay away from the military over our convictions, there will be those eager to take what we turn down on principle. This makes WISDOM much necessary in handling such negotiations. Wisdom to offer acceptable ideas that will be agreeable to all parties such as beneficial peaceful applications of technology of interest to military circles.
Further lifts.
JohnO


John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies




 

A bit of background to this WindLift news: I was perhaps the first figure directly invited by the US Army to participate in their AWE R&D, but turned them down based on the conviction that kite energy should not be militarized (AWE Military Moratorium). Rob, who I was already in contact back then, founded WindLift and took the Army work, based on his family tradition of military service. We learn in this new source that WindLift military funding has now reached 2.3M USD. Providentially, from my point of view, Windlift has not succeeded in creating a viable military asset, since Rob's background in molecular biology was not ideal to lead in an innovative aviation technology.

The WindLift Item-

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2018/11/21/morrisvilles-windlift-closes-on-125000-debt-raise/

Endnote- The US Army's Futures Command, a new "brain center" of innovative warfare tech, has located in Austin, so stay tuned for further information on a dialogue between our pacifist local culture and the Army's leading tech thinkers. I will soon be advocating to them the strategic reformulation of world militarism, away from mass lethality, toward mass humanitarian response to global natural disasters, by means of kites, while resolutely opposing the adaptation of kites to modern war. AWE should be to comfort victims, not create them.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24235 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: William G. Roeseler

Patent number: 5366182       (PDF)
=========================================


Comment:
Each craft development in kiteboarding, kite skiing, power-kite recreation, and the like, and the like impacts AWE, as indeed such activities are AWE activities. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24236 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: William G. Roeseler
A path to similar patents may be followed by judicious clicking. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24237 From: dougselsam Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources
If AWE becomes a useful energy solution, the military will probably use it just like they use, for example, diesel engines today.  Anything used in everyday life is used by the military - shoes, silverware, vehicles, etc.  This is a special situation where mandates regarding low-carbon energy meet budget availability and a good story can find funding.  To me this is just more "future news" - the kind that eventually fades away after the hype subsides.  I've had quite a bit of interest from military sources, NGO's etc., but realized long go, either you have a solution ready for prime-time or you don't.  You could spend all your time running around "speaking" about what you "will do", and become so absorbed in related peripheral activities that you never actually get much of anything done, or on the other hand insist that you get something truly useful working well before trying to sell it to anyone or make any rash public statements about how many thousand houses you "will be" powering "next year" where "next year" remains perpetually as "next year" somehow never becoming "this year" or "last year" as normal time flow occurs in the outside (non-AWE) world.
Here is what happens in the "real world" to people who "SAY" they "are going to" power X homes by date Y using wind energy technology Z, yet fail to do so:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24238 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Gin Shaman Hybrid ("monoskin" & cell) Kite
Power Kites continue to develop at a tremendous rate, which is fast basic AWE progress as well. Note that our "SS" (single-skin) nomenclature may be supplanted by "monoskin" usage.

From the website-

"The SHAMAN is built with the best innovative construction from the latest paragliding technology. It’s a mono-skin construction mixed with a precise balance of cells: it’s the first ever mixed construction for a snowkite! We have collaborated with the Swiss designer Olivier Nef, one of the most influencial designers in the paragliding scene. The results are exceptional with a super versatile, safe and performing kite."

https://www.ginkites.com/product/shaman-snowkite-freeride/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24239 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Windlift so far has raised 2.3M USD from Military Sources
Thank You, JohnO, for the sympathetic note.

For those unaware of the history of military technology, there have been many specific technical moratoriums on moral grounds since ancient times down to our day, so we continue optimistically in that spirit to propose a more humane future, including our efforts in AWE.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24240 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Flapping hydro power
Our friends at Zhang Lab, and other key researchers, have greatly advanced flapping science in the last twenty years. We now look at a flapping flag with far more insight. This latest news, a France-based hydro-flapping case (the Eel), extends flapping science toward engineering R&D, and suggests extending our past discussion. We now better see a distinction between high and low AR (aspect ratio) flapping dynamics and associated design factors.

Line vortexes develop in a flapping flag's billows, starting near the flag pole, and grow in size and power until they shed at the TE (trailing-edge). The Eel program seeks to tap the vortical energy at TE. Most other flapping PTO (power take-off) schemes tap the LE (leading-edge), which is not as direct, and has a slower load-motion. KiteLab/kPower has usually tapped the whole flapping surface (flipwings), with considerable power evident.

Any matter vortex is, in quasiparticle language, a phononic roton (rotary phonon). Consider line vortexes in flag billows as flywheel storage devices that are created and charged as they drag along the fabric downwind. A vortex's flywheel basis uses low pressure at its center and high pressure at its margin as its flywheel structure. Wind flow around the flag spins up these vortexes, much like cross-axis Savonius or Flettner Rotors, but with the astounding capability to grow (charge). Entrainment is the term for the coupling of a vortex to structure in flow.

The trick is to tap the flywheel energy in these vortexes at maximum development, neither damping the flag too much nor letting too much vortical energy pass into the wake. This is generally practical by tapping the pressure differential between the flag surfaces, as Eel's design does; more like a piston than a rotary PTO. This is a novel area of study well worth developing for further lessons. Its an open question how far the unique principles may apply in future AWE.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24241 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
For ten years, I believe to have consistently only stated that the Sky Serpent's generator had no load connected at HAWPcon09, when I inspected it. Let Doug or anyone provide a referenced quote of any actual mistaken statement, for proper correction. Yes, Doug is back on the Forum with his obsessive complaints, but where is his positive contribution to AWE knowledge? Losing Olivier over the still unresolved Netiquette gap between us; what a poor trade.

Let Doug fairly live up to his own old AWE claims (eg. that he could solve AWE if he chose), and form helpful Forum topics on creative merits, rather than be the most unhappy in posting.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24242 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2018
Subject: Re: Gin Shaman Hybrid ("monoskin" & cell) Kite
Mostly SS (or MS), but at tips for damping some vibration: DS (closed cells).   So, the wing is not fully MS. 
---------------------------------------

Recall the wing family of sleds with two or three inflated cells, but with SS (or MS) webs between the inflated ram-air cells.    The Shaman is a refined progress from such family. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24243 From: dougselsam Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
Interesting how you love to denigrate "Doug" at every opportunity.  Doug who?  Now you're trying to weasel your way out of what you said before.  Not interested in playing your game.  Olivier stayed in touch with me.  It never seems to occur to you or Joe that you might be the problem.  It would be refreshing if people could express an opinion on here without having to run the gauntlet of you trying to tear them down by "correcting" whatever it is they said. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24244 From: dougselsam Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"

I'm always starving for anything new that seems scientifically interesting, especially anything new in AWE.

I posted a message here a few days ago lamenting that a Google search for "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news" returned a page full of Altaeros images.  The content of most of the "news" consisted of the recent spate of reports by outsider tech analyst publishers, such as Dr. Peter Harrop, as one example.  Often mentioned on this forum, these reports seem to offer less information than we already know. 

Funny thing is, after recently noting on this group the remnant proliferation of these images of the Altaeros "Buoyant Airborne Turbine" (BAT), today's search suddenly returned NO images of the BAT.  I had to go through four (4) pages of results before I saw a single image of the good ole' formerly-ubiquitous BAT.  Interesting that they all disappeared together, that quickly.  Seems like maybe there are more of certain people lurking on this group than we realize.(?)  Weird.  And I thought nobody listens...  :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24245 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/29/2018
Subject: Александр Владимирович Губанов
========================
It may take some effort to figure out this inventor's AWE deals.  Several patents may be reached by clicking his linked name above. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24246 From: Rod Read Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"
Correlation x= causation 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24247 From: Rod Read Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"
Google UK still loves BAT images.
Searches for Airborne Wind Energy up 85% on Google trends this week 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24248 From: dougselsam Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"
Hi Rod
If the number of AWE searches are up, maybe it's from me checking every day lately.
Luke from Germany e-mailed me and said the same thing as you - nothing has changed in his search results..
I just checked here - still no BAT image til page 4 of results versus page 1 full of BAT images just a few days ago here in California.
Could it be personal results for me?
One would think search results would be the same anywhere but I guess maybe not.
Let's see what others in the U.S. say:  anyone?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <rod.read@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24249 From: dougselsam Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"
By the way, are you clicking on "news" after your initial search?
That is where I lost all the previous images.
Just a Google general web search, without clicking on "news",  still returns the BAT images, for me in the U.S.
Reminds me of how many years the Magenn images persisted or even dominated.  Typical of wind energy in general - outsiders' discussions seem to inevitably degenerate to an uninformed discussion of easy-to-comprehend aspects like bird-strikes, since the average reader knows what a bird is, but understands nothing about technical angles of wind energy per se.
The funny thing is, anyone on our group can be 5 years ahead of all these outsider publishers who really know next-to-nothing and seem to just absorb and believe, then regurgitate the overly-optimistic public-relations statements of the various companies involved.  To these outsiders, from their shallow analysis, AWE is about to start selling in huge numbers.  Hold on to your hats, next year is gonna be big!  They are not aware of the reality that almost every stated project silently vaporizes while under radio (internet) silence, so real "news" is unavailable, at least from  cursory search on the web.  A little actual research is needed, such as when I called Alaska to see how the BAT was doing and found nobody up there knew what I was even talking about, even at the newspaper that had originally published the article.  You get used to it after a while.  It's always been part of wind energy.  There's a word for it: "vaporware".  On this list, when it's allowed to be posted, people get to see more learned, detailed, and objective analyses of these various (or sometimes virtually identical) technologies.  Yet apparently, many outsiders must be convinced it's a good idea to pay thousands of dollars for information that, while collected with the best of intentions, comes from such a peripheral point of view as to be mostly meaningless, and, in my opinion, completely wrong.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <rod.read@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24250 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: US9389132B1

Kenny Jensen 
Damon Vander Lind 

Methods and systems for estimating an orientation of a tethered aerial vehicle relative to wind

tags: US9389132  US 9389132, 

Abstract
A system may include a tether coupled to a ground station. The system may also include an aerial vehicle coupled to the tether and configured to fly in a given path relative to the ground station based on a length of the tether. The system may also include one or more load cells coupled to the tether and configured to provide information indicative of a tether force between the tether and the aerial vehicle. The one or more load cells may be arranged in a given arrangement indicative of a direction of the tether force. The system may also include a controller configured to determine an angle between a direction of wind incident on the aerial vehicle and a plane defined by a longitudinal axis and a lateral axis of the aerial vehicle based on the tether force.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24251 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/30/2018
Subject: Tethered wing structures complex flight path
Some AWE workers may find tidbits within
the text of this linked patent:  PDF
Title: 
Tethered wing structures complex flight path
Abstract: 
  A vertical liftoff aircrafts system includes a plurality of unmanned wing structures configured for collective vertical liftoff: a plurality of tethers respectively connected to the plurality of wing structures; and a fuselage including a connector thereon for mechanically connecting the plurality of tethers. The fuselage includes a power pack for powering the plurality of wing structures via the plurality of tethers, whereby the plurality of wing structures is operatively interconnected to the fuselage with the plurality of tethers for lifting the fuselage. A method and a kit thereof also are disclosed.   

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24252 From: tallakt Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: US9389132B1
Using force sensors on the tether must surely be prior art? The tether force measurement is an important, easily aquired data point. If this is not possible due to patent infringement, succeeding in AWE will become that much more difficult.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24253 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
The record stands, that Doug is unable to substantiate any mistaken claim of "no generator", much less explain why such mistake even matters. Any mistake fairly and properly cited will be corrected.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24254 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Googling "airborne wind energy" then clicking on "news"
The search results cited owed more to Google's shortcomings than actual AWE domain knowledge. The AWES Forum has been the top source of serious AWE news for the last decade. Meanwhile, Google was convicted of mass cooking of search results in the EU. We even documented a Makani "news" bias in Google results, in past years. Poor Google AWE search results are old news here.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24255 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: [AWES] Александр Владимирович Губано
We can classify the general direction of these Russian AWE patents as speculative schemes that do not depend on kites as they generally exist (classic kites, power kites, etc.). We are seeing Russia's patent system mirror the dynamic of other countries, where small inventors hope for a commercial monopoly very unlikely to materialize. At best, languishing AWE patents will be pooled in future R&D rounds, with no new patents predicted to create decisive value, since AWE's few core patents are now public domain.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24256 From: dougselsam Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
No "the record stands" that in years of your "haranguing" me by misdescribing the only working demo at the first conference, suddenly you are in denial of your miss-statement that started the whole thing.  Every time you get into another of your "arguments" with anyone on here, it's always back to you challenging them to go back and find "proof" of your previous statements, as though we were not all here reading them.
Meanwhile you and Joe are in charge of which messages are deleted or kept on the forum, and Yahoo responds to a search with a few recent returns then a helpful message saying "Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content."
The bottom line is, you come in and attack with your false information, then you want to nitpick people to death as though they want to spend all day disproving whatever your latest false statement is such as today's new ruse: "I never said that."  Well why come up with "I never said that" now, when before you just kept backing down to less and less extreme mischaracterizations like "well it had no batteries" or "well it wasn't "connected" to the batteries".  Well if you started out by saying you saw no batteries, how could you "see" anything hooked up to some invisible batteries that you supposedly didn't see?  Or are you going to deny now saying any of that too?  For someone to go back and find your previous false statements would require remembering your exact words, as a start, then it would require that you and Joe have not altered what was in the archives, THEN it would require that the Yahoo groups search function even works properly, which it does not.  Assuming someone wants to further waste their life on your nonsense.  Meanwhile, you've been going on about this theme of whether I brought batteries and whether the Sky Serpent had a generator for years, and now is the first time you've tried to say you never said it didn't have a generator.  People have better things to do than waste all day every day flagging your false statements and disproving your inaccurate accusations.  After years of list participants protesting your unfair treatment and false statements, the "record" that "stands", in my view, is that you thrive on making trouble for anyone and everyone who dares to express an opinion, or even bring a working demo to put right in front of your eyes.  Whether such a "mistake" matters, concerns whether such repeated transgressions against so many people can be reasonably called "mistakes" after a certain point, and whether there is any possibility of having a forum where it is even possible to stand up to your attempted tyranny.  At some point, there are better ways to spend one's time than continued futile attempts to have a reasonable conversation with someone who habitually acts in an unreasonable way.  Life has to go on beyond silly wannabe-"arguments" on the internet with daveS that are so ridiculous as to not even merit being called "arguments" in the first place - they are just nonsense on steroids.. Got things to do.  No time left for this.  Sound familiar?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24257 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: US9389132B1
No Google/Makani/Joby patent that we have reviewed has ever contained a considerable inventive leap; all have been tame steps to build an IP portfolio in "venture checkbox" fashion. Its great news for the world; that Google failed to sew up a monopoly in AWE IP, as originally feared.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24258 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Tethered wing structures complex flight path
Another new tethered aviation patent building on ideas long known. Pete Lynn (Jr) in particular sparked modern discussion of this old aviation concept space, but the core concept dates back centuries (flying schemes like tethering to a flock of eagles, now drones). There is a big future to this concept space, nevertheless, and this patent may well contribute useful details. Lets hope for successful prototype cases.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24259 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Birth of Hawaian KiteSurfing
We also credit the Roeseler family, Corwin Hardham, and others, who first pioneered kite boarding on the Lower Columbia River a decade earlier, plus many other kite surfing antecedents. Kite sailing may even have figured in the ancient Polynesian colonization of Hawaii, and its rather likely they also both surfed and kited on occasion-

https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/14739-kitesurfing-pioneers-release-must-listen-audiobook
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24260 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
No, the Sky Serpent was not the only demo at HAWPcon09; KiteLab also flew several AWES-related devices, as witnesses can confirm. None of the demos apparently powered anything. Let time tell which concepts demoed at early conferences were the most promising in principle.

Sorry if Doug feels so unfairly treated. He did get good coverage by SF press.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24261 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Kite Window States
A power kite student begins by exploring the "kite window", the flying zone of a kite in relation to its anchor and wind. The window is laterally, but not vertically, symmetric. Toward its center is the "power zone". At top is "zenith", and the "edge" zones lie to the sides. The "surface" scope has its own set of special kite-handling properties. The kite window is complex because its contains many non-linear surprises. Wind veering is the veering of the entire kite window, a major source of uncertainty and compounded computation.

No AWE R&D team has yet fully automated kite window operations, focusing first on simple pattern-flying. Kite pro flying shows just how far AWES automation lags. Pros fly wildly diverse patterns to match load demand to whatever the wind does, just don't ask them to explain exactly how they do it. They fly solutions that are the despair of a conventional avionics programmer. Flight automation will advance, but rather slower than most folks imagine.

A next step in single-kite automation is to formalize the kite window state machine. Learning algorithms may soon partly replicate a kite pro's performance, but the clean-room ideal of certified avionic software will favor a transparent validated kite window state machine. Desired flight performance is not just what a kitegod might do, but also to output semantic kite state in real time, to ease troubleshooting and upgrading. Kite window states are key semantic states.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24262 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Unit-KiteFarm Process Control (review and update)
Most AWE developers have presumed single-kite control, as their first-order control assumption, where their kitefarms are to consist of multiple kite control threads maintaining bottom-up order between themselves. In contrast, KiteLab has long presented the unit-kitefarm as the key AWES control abstraction, an approach known as Process Control. In this view, the simplified kitefarm state machine is the load demand, the weather, and the gross state of the AWES, without complex calculations of trajectory. Passive dynamic stabilities are the preferred unit-kite control solution in the AWES Process Control paradigm.

In our time, process control has flourished, from power plants to chemical plants. Such plants tend to contain many control processes, but the overall process is seen as one simplified control thread. Wikipedia's Process Control article nicely surveys modern practice as it has emerged from ancient roots. Perfected AWE at the largest scale will be a process control regime-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_control
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24264 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: TUDelft VTOL Launch Assist Paper
Formal exploration of a long-discussed VTOL launch assist assumption, a welcome reference model in the broader AWES launching design study. Not discussed are severe scaling limits, or closely related alternatives.* This paper poses a mild challenge to rigid kiteplane/multicopter thinking-

Vertical Takeoff and Landing of Flexible Wing Kite Power Systems
Journal of Guidance, Control, and Dynamics · July 2018 DOI: 10.2514/1.G003535}
Sebastian Rapp & Roland Schmehl
Delft University of Technology

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326587380_Vertical_Takeoff_and_Landing_of_Flexible_Wing_Kite_Power_Systems

===========
* like balloon and ballistic launch methods, and launch assist from pilot kites winch-towed up into working wind, many as demoed by KiteLab Ilwaco 2007-9
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24265 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: TUDelft VTOL Launch Assist Paper
Some of the paper's references might be reached by paths than than indicated:

References
[1] Fagiano, L., and Schnez, S., “On the Take-off of Airborne Wind
Energy Systems Based on Rigid Wings,” Renewable Energy,
Vol. 107, 2017, pp. 473–488. doi:10.1016/j.renene.2017.02.023.

[2] Haug, S., “Design of a Kite Launch and Retrieval System For a
Pumping High Altitude Wind Power Generator,” Master’s
thesis, University of Stuttgart, 2012. doi:10.18419/opus-3936.

[3] Ahrens, U., Diehl, M., and Schmehl, R. (eds.), Airborne Wind
Energy, Green Energy and Technology, Springer, Berlin
Heidelberg, 2013. doi:10.1007/978-3-642-39965-7.

[4] Cherubini, A., Papini, A., Vertechy, R., and Fontana, M.,
“Airborne Wind Energy Systems: A review of the technologies,”
Renewable and Sustainable Energy Reviews, Vol. 51, 2015, pp.
1461–1476. doi:10.1016/j.rser.2015.07.053.

[5] Bauer, F., Hackl, C. M., Smedley, K., and Kennel, R., “On
Multicopter-Based Launch and Retrieval Concepts for Lift Mode
Operated Power Generating Kites,” Book of Abstracts of the
International Airborne Wind Energy Conference 2015, edited by
R. Schmehl, Delft University of Technology, Delft, The Netherlands,
2015, pp. 92–93. doi:10.4233/uuid:7df59b79-2c6b-4e30-
bd58-8454f493bb09.

[6] Fechner, U., van der Vlugt, R., Schreuder, E., and Schmehl, R.,
“Dynamic Model of a Pumping Kite Power System,” Renewable
Energy, Vol. 83, 2015, pp. 705–716. doi:10.1016/j.renene.2015.04.028.

[7] Jehle, C., and Schmehl, R., “Applied Tracking Control for Kite
Power Systems,” AIAA Journal of Guidance, Control, and
Dynamics, Vol. 37, No. 4, 2014, pp. 1211–1222. doi:10.2514/1.62380.

[8] Valavanis, K. P., and Vachtsevanos, G. J. (eds.), Handbook of
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, Springer, Dordrecht, 2014.
doi:10.1007/978-90-481-9707-1.

[9] Stevens, B. L., Lewis, F. L., and Johnson, E. N., Aircraft control
and simulation, Wiley, Hoboken, New Jersey, 2016.
doi:10.1002/9781119174882.
36

[10] Bosch, A., Schmehl, R., Tiso, P., and Rixen, D., “Dynamic
nonlinear aeroelastic model of a kite for power generation,” AIAA
Journal of Guidance, Control and Dynamics, Vol. 37, No. 5, 2014, pp.
1426–1436. doi:10.2514/1.G000545.

[11] Falconi, G. P., Heise, C. D., and Holzapfel, F., “Fault-tolerant
position tracking of a hexacopter using an Extended State
Observer,” 6th International Conference on Automation, Robotics and
Applications, ICARA 2015, Queenstown, New Zealand,
February 17-19, 2015, IEEE, New York, NY, 2015, pp. 550–556.
doi:10.1109/ICARA.2015.7081207.

[12] Lavretsky, E., and Wise, K. A., Robust and adaptive control,
Springer-Verlag London, 2013. doi:10.1007/978-1-4471-4396-3.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24266 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Re: He is exploring
Another fine link from Surfer Today, the story of how the Lagainoux brothers started, including a clear reference to Dave Culp's kite sailing as an inspiration. The French story compliments the kite sport pioneer narratives of the Lower Columbia River and Hawaii. Who better to recognize revolutionary kite design progress today than the likes of BrunoL? The article shares rare vintage photos and history-

https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/13556-bruno-legaignoux-inventor-of-kitesurfing-kites-are-a-fantastic-vehicle
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24267 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Rethinking AWES Lifecycle Assumptions
In conventional wind tech, utility-scale HAWTs are designed to last for 20 years or more; but in the history of wind tech, and in forward looking AWE theory, no single number applies. For example, traditional Dutch windmills are effectively immortal, lasting centuries if properly maintained. Cheap power kites might only last a few months in heavy service, yet reach economic payback in a few weeks, far faster and potentially more profitable than any HAWT. The kitefarms AWES will operate from, and much of the surface hardware, could last centuries.

Its misleading to apply conventional HAWT lifespan thinking to AWE. For a small AWES, lifespan may hardly matter at all in actual practice. A single expedition or disaster response can be an acceptable AWES lifespan. HAWT design comparisons are more about profound difference than shared reality. AWES don't even seek the same wind, but a far higher stronger resource.

Aerospace systems on the whole last from single use to indefinitely long lifespans. A 747 airframe may be rated at so many pressure cycles, but even this does not settle absolute lifespan if, for example, conservative operations limit pressure cycle extremes. The expected AWES design lifespan paradox is that a shorter lifespan build is so superior by power-to-mass and capacity-factor, that only such a design can win economically.

AWES lifecycles will depend as vitally on maintenance as build, as is the case in aviation. Expect continued confusion over design lifespan in AWE when simplistic comparisons to conventional wind lifecycles are made. A bird is not built to last like a brick house, and the brick house is not built to fly.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24268 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2018
Subject: Surfer Today surveys Roots of KiteSurfing
JoeF first noted the BrunoL page a few days ago, part of a treasury of linked Surfer Today content filling dramatic gaps in kitesurfing history. Don Monague's page is a launching point for specific AWE discussion, even invoking Wubbo. Surfers naturally feel kite energy deeply. Follow the links to content about other pioneers, and even a Peter Lynn big kite page. Members of the early AWES Forum can recall huge additional pieces of this history from the preceding lineage of Culp, Lynn, Roeseler, etc.. Many of us in technical kites long know each other personally, and the story only continues to develop. In truth, anyone reading this as its posted is inside the ongoing early revolution, nowhere near its ultimate climax.

https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/13987-kitesurfing-pioneers-the-story-of-don-montague
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24269 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2018
Subject: Visualizing Kite Lattice Waves (Networked Kites)
{This is a test of upgrading to a better mailer and new machine; to see if the animated GIF pasted below moves and the hot link works. Thanks for putting up with primitive emails under the previous set-up.}

Visualizing Kite Lattice Waves (Networked Kites)

Pumping Kite Networks are inspired by a crystal lattice wave analogy, and the same mathematics applies. In the animated GIF below, each atom in the crystal can be taken as a kite element. As seen from above, the wave motions are to be considered as crosswind motion, and the black background as a PTO groundgen field. Not shown is a pilot lifter layer, which might or might not be a standard layer. Its presumed that reverse-pumped waves can maintain flight of the lattice in calm.

There are higher-order complexities to account for in a better model, like wind gradient and shadowing effects, but any expert in kites can see the feasibility of the general idea, as a potential GW rated WECS.

Hope this helps folks understand what may be the ultimate AWE and aerotecture basis; Networked Kites-


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