Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 24059 to 24111 Page 373 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24059 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: Keeping Drag Force in Play

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24060 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: "Dark Side of WInd Power" - new article: Bloomberg

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24061 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: Keeping Drag Force in Play

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24062 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/19/2018
Subject: Re: Makani news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24063 From: dave santos Date: 10/20/2018
Subject: Re: Makani news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24064 From: dave santos Date: 10/21/2018
Subject: Ongoing Flapping Flag WECS Science

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24065 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: KGM-1's heroic journey continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24066 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Fwd: Survey before Crowdfunding // Sondage préalable à un financem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24067 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Ongoing XC Soaring Records reveal Global AWE Paradise and Nomadic Im

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24068 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24069 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Cordage O&M Industrial Standard for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24070 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24071 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24072 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24073 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24074 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Prospects for automated cordage inspection and replacement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24075 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Self-destructing Kiteline (Kite Killer variant); Instant Kiteline

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24076 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Moravec's Swarms and 3D Flash Printing of Kites in Mid-air

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24077 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: After futzing AWE, Joby Aviation raises 100M for "flying car"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24078 From: dougselsam Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24079 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24080 From: dougselsam Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24081 From: dougselsam Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24082 From: tallakt Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24083 From: tallakt Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24084 From: dougselsam Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24085 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: MADE IN GERMANY Flying power station

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24087 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24088 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Re: Tyrus Wong

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24089 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Human body as the tether wing A new attraction at Dubai's Kite Be

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24090 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24091 From: Rod Read Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24092 From: dave santos Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24093 From: dave santos Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24094 From: tallakt Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24095 From: tallakt Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24096 From: dougselsam Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24097 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24098 From: dougselsam Date: 10/27/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24099 From: tallakt Date: 10/27/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24100 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24101 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24104 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24105 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24106 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24107 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24108 From: tallakt Date: 10/29/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24109 From: Rod Read Date: 10/29/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24110 From: dougselsam Date: 10/29/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24111 From: dougselsam Date: 10/29/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24059 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: Keeping Drag Force in Play

"A simple drogue develops almost pure drag force..." is an extract from https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/topics/22847.

So we (the AWE community then the whole world) enjoy the fast progress of the "Modern analysis of Drag".


PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24060 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: "Dark Side of WInd Power" - new article: Bloomberg
DougS,

It would help validate your ongoing prediction claim validations to cite and quote your original claim texts. Its an obvious prediction that someone somewhere will make crazy wind energy claims. The far-harder more-useful predictions cover just what future wind tech will win out; again, the original claims should be cited, for credit where it is due.

Sorry for mistaking that you were only claiming to predict some third-party would see this "Dark Side of WInd Power", an interpretation which you do not accept. We have covered similar wind-tech/AWE doubts before (like [Miller et al, MPI], which CristinaA and KenC rebutted), without seeking to predict them.

There is always a "dark-side" in engineering, as part of the design trade-off reality,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24061 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2018
Subject: Re: Keeping Drag Force in Play
PierreB,

Yes, I was mistaken in my past misunderstanding of Drag, and would no longer make the same erroneous statement (in favor of fresh errors). Many of the greatest aerodynamicists can be caught by their past statements, and the field continues to evolve by surprising insights.

Thanks for helping correct the record,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24062 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/19/2018
Subject: Re: Makani news
Telegraph, UK, 

Google's loop-the-loop kite to graduate from secretive X division 'soon'

by Margi Murphy, San Francisco
18 OCTOBER 2018 • 11:17PM
=====================================================
???

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24063 From: dave santos Date: 10/20/2018
Subject: Re: Makani news
Readers of the AWES Forum and the latest Makani buzz are reminded of Google's characteristic PR cycle for fizzled X "moonshots": After years of secrecy and hype, each spent X venture is prettied-up for sale or permanent limbo. The only news here is that Makani is seemingly approaching the end of the same PR cycle. Mention is made of cost and safety "tweak(s)" pending, which experts know as apparently fatal shortcomings of their down-selected high-complexity AWES architecture. The flaws require pro-forma fair-warning preceding a hoped-for sell-off. Potential buyers will see the problematic power-curves that we are not allowed to see, but still may buy on the allure of the PR fog.

Makani's specific end game seems to be a gamble on an accident-free visually-spectacular demo in Hawaii, to best sell-off the company and recover some of the squandered R&D funding (that would have been better spent far more broadly on comparative testing). The value to AWE R&D overall is the elimination of Makani's architecture as a major contender, with few doubts possible about poor viability. For the last decade, we have followed the clear divisions of opinion toward Makani's "solution" in the AWE academic and venture world, and how so many naïve believers were cultivated. Makani's failure, once it is accepted, opens the venture path for low-complexity architectures to advance in testing. After Makani "graduation". Google is no longer expected to be a major player in AWE.

Note that Makani's failure was first predicted here in 2009, immediately upon the announcement of the high-complexity AWES architecture, for the same societal reasons of "cost" and "safety", and associated poor engineering scalability under mass square-cube physical law.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24064 From: dave santos Date: 10/21/2018
Subject: Ongoing Flapping Flag WECS Science
There are only a handful of serious Flapping Flag Science experimenters, like Zhang Lab, NYU, and KiteLab Ilwaco/Austin. The engineering-science motivation is how simple and striking flag motion is; it works every time, and its powerful enough to fray the toughest fabric. No one sees the simple flag is an optimal WECS, but as an ideal experimental and theoretic model for powerful flapping wings in AWE (ie. KiteLab FlipWings kick like a mule in high wind). Flapping itself is not claimed to be superior to rotation over short distances, but oscillation pumping of kitelines is the most powerful longest-range AWES transmission means, by line-mass-over-distance, so reciprocating motion may be inherently favored.

In this French paper our recurring flapping themes further validated, of a striking Lock-In dynamic between a flapping wing tuned to a spring-mass oscillator, with power extraction modeled as a Damping-Factor. We are seeing confirmation that progressive ballast mass in the wing can enhance power and regularity as wind increases, much as a high-performance glider takes on water ballast mass for enhanced penetration and superior XC performance (lead ballast is also added to some of the hottest glider wings to damp aeroelastic flutter, a reverse case to our WECS dynamics).

The theoretic AWES ideal that continues to emerge is a well-tuned wing area, AoA, inertial mass, and elasticity; perfectly matched to wind velocity and load demand (damping factor).

http://emmanuelvirot.free.fr/virot2016flagcoupling.pdf

Elsewhere in flag science, the diagonal billows of flapping are found to act as wings to enhance the lift that raises a flag in wind. The line vortices develop along the billow and shed from the edge/tip, just like any ordinary wing.

https://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.107.194502
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24065 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: KGM-1's heroic journey continues
Thanks to MarcoG and team for continued KGM-1 progress and updates. Qualenergia.IT's latest coverage nicely captures the technology drama of an unstoppable small Italian AWE player whose secret-sauce is true aviation culture, rather than the failing venture-capital speculations of oversold contenders. Now would be a good time for WoW to invest some remaining funds on this best-of-Italy world-class AWE team.

https://www.qualenergia.it/articoli/un-nuovo-tentativo-italiano-per-leolico-ad-alta-quota/

=== machine translation ===

A new Italian attempt for high altitude wind power
Alessandro Codegoni

Exploiting the winds by hundreds or thousands of meters in height is still a complex undertaking. In Italy a new project, KGM1, takes up the concept of kite or wing connected to a generator. Objective is a prototype that can overcome the weaknesses of this technology which, even from various foreign investors, is considered very promising.
------------
One of the prototypes of the Hollywood characters is that of the hero who despite being targeted by fate and the "bad guys", always finds the strength to get up and fight, until he triumphs in the happy end.
We wish a similar happy end also to Marco Ghivarello, industrial designer from Turin, owner of the GHIVA CAD Design, who decided to grab and start again to wave one of the most battered flags of the world of renewable energy, that of high altitude wind power, carrying on , almost by itself, a new project that, hopefully, will succeed in overcoming the many weaknesses that have hitherto sank or delayed sine die what, in appearance, was one of the most promising systems to produce renewable energy.
As many will know with high altitude wind power means the exploitation of winds to hundreds or thousands of meters in height, where, free from the impediment of forests, mountains and other natural or artificial obstacles, they expire with great power and, from certain heights up, with continuity. All this with systems much lighter and less conspicuous than those of normal wind towers.
To capture those winds we can not say that ideas are missing, which can be divided into two categories: those that bring the electric generator to the altitude, and those that leave the generator on the ground, bringing to it the strength of the wind at altitude wings or kites.
In the first case the generators, connected to the ground with an electric cable, are mounted on airships, as in the case of Magenn or Altaeros, or on airplanes, as in the case of Makani Power, where the aircraft starts as a ground helicopter, using the generators as motors, and then use the high altitude wind to drive the generators connected to the propellers.
In the second case, bringing the force of the winds down to a generator on the ground is a light kite or a heavier rigid wing, which pulls a cable connected to the generator, and then returns to the starting point recalled back by a motor.
The examples are varied, one of the most recent is the Skyfish project of Stratodynamics, a spinoff from NASA. But we Italians know much better the Kitegen, the company of engineer Massimo Ippolito, who created a prototype wind power system with kite, which, however, in about ten years of development, has not yet managed to move to a commercial phase.
Despite all this creativity and investment, as you know, wind energy continues to be obtained in the world from "banal" turbines planted on the ground, which catch the maximum wind at 100 meters in height, and not from these plants much lighter and less impact on the landscape.
The alternative at high altitude seems so difficult to take off that it seems impossible that someone else will try, for fear of getting burned, and instead, as said, Ghivarello, who has decades of experience in automotive and aeronautical design, as well as being a pilot of glider and paragliding, and having worked with Kitegen for several years, has announced his project, KGM1, which incorporates the concept of kite or wing connected to a generator, but with some improvements that, according to him, should avoid making him do the same end of the predecessors.

«I have been working on this project since 2014, all at my expense and of the team that has helped me so far, but I have recently obtained two modest funding from companies that obviously believe in improvements to the KGM1 project».
In particular KGM1 intends to intervene on three crucial aspects.
"First of all, we saw the classic 8-wheel trajectory, called Yo-Yo, designed in the sky by kites for energy generation, designing a different one, which offers many advantages in terms of production and efficiency. We began to experiment in practice and will soon be the subject of a master's thesis under the supervision of Prof. Lorenzo Fagiano, of the Polytechnic of Milan, one of the leading experts in the field. A first test conducted on the prototype generator, with a simple commercial kite, showed that it is a realistically reproducible trajectory ».
The other two main objectives are the construction of a generator that is profoundly different from the conventional ones used today, which makes the most of the new trajectory, and a new semi-rigid wing, which will further increase flight control and efficiency.
«The whole project has as its guideline the maximum simplification of each sub-system on board and on the ground, including control software, so as to keep failures, maintenance and costs as low as possible, with the aim of obtaining an increase in productivity in the exploitation of the wind ".
On paper, everything is fine, but what are the goals really achieved?
"Meanwhile, we have applied for three Italian patents on just as many innovations, as well as an international patent application, and this is an essential step to give investors confidence. We then built a first prototype, on which to perform flight tests and those of motorization and software. To move to a complete prototype of 5-10 kW, running with an automated control, will need 200 thousand euros, which I hope we can gather from various investors or thanks to technological accelerators. But whoever believes in this technology can also contact us to invest directly. With those funds we can build a demonstrator that, we estimate, will have a value of 10 million euros, as market potential, for example as a generator for small off-grid communities ».
One thing that perplexes, however, is that KGM1, at least for now, is expected to work at a maximum height of about 100 meters. So it can not be said that it goes hunting for "high altitude" winds, renouncing their power and continuity.
"Well, it's the same height as conventional wind turbines work, but with our system the costs are a fraction of having a rotor tower. Operating at that height also makes it much easier to use, interfering less with air traffic. However the 100 meters of height, they are only the first step ».
But, frankly, Ghivarello, you do not feel a little 'Davide against Goliath: on the one hand she, with his projects in the cellar and a few thousand euro in funding, and other companies structured and working for years, as Makani, which has millions of dollars behind Google, or Ampix Power.
"Well, they, too, despite substantial funding, do not seem to have found a way for mass production, although, according to recent reports, it seems that Makani is about to start selling energy, running its offshore system. In any case, I believe that their approach is tainted by the excessive complication of their motorized wings, by an excellent efficiency in the exploitation of the wind and by the difficulty of finding an insurance that covers their operations, for the risk that tons of generators will end up in head to someone. If our simple and light wing could only achieve their energy conversion efficiency, but we hope to do better, considering that our costs are a fraction of them, we would have already obtained an extremely competitive product ».
And basically, at the end, Goliath was beaten by David.
You might also be interested in:
Wind at high altitude, bet technologies
The high altitude wind power of KitePower
The energy from the waves continues its way also in Italy
Renewables, in Italy how are we going to research?
Ilva et al.: How to make the steel industry more sustainable

Tags: high altitude wind power, KGM1, kitegen, research and development
«I have been working on this project since 2014, all at my expense and of the team that has helped me so far, but I have recently obtained two modest funding from companies that obviously believe in improvements to the KGM1 project».
In particular KGM1 intends to intervene on three crucial aspects.
"First of all, we saw the classic 8-wheel trajectory, called Yo-Yo, designed in the sky by kites for energy generation, designing a different one, which offers many advantages in terms of production and efficiency. We began to experiment in practice and will soon be the subject of a master's thesis under the supervision of Prof. Lorenzo Fagiano, of the Polytechnic of Milan, one of the leading experts in the field. A first test conducted on the prototype generator, with a simple commercial kite, showed that it is a realistically reproducible trajectory ».
The other two main objectives are the construction of a generator that is profoundly different from the conventional ones used today, which makes the most of the new trajectory, and a new semi-rigid wing, which will further increase flight control and efficiency.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24066 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Fwd: Survey before Crowdfunding // Sondage préalable à un financem
From: Kitewinder <sales@kitewinder.fr
Power your life whatever you are  / Produit ton électricité là où tu es.

Kitewinder is a french company specialized in designing and producing airborne wind-turbines.
Kitewinder est une PME française spécialisée dans la conception et la fabrication d'éoliennes portées par cerf-volant.

Version française en-dessous
 
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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24067 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Ongoing XC Soaring Records reveal Global AWE Paradise and Nomadic Im
There has been a strong time and place correlation between soaring records and the historic cradles of soaring sports. Just a few years ago, XC soaring and endurance records still reflected just a few favored places where social and wind/terrain factors overlapped, like the World Record Encampment in South Texas. Lately, the pattern has broken down and new records are proliferating in places as diverse as Patagonia, Slovenia, South Africa and the North Coast of South America. A remaining consistent conditions is dependence on clear sky visibility, as otherwise records might fall in soupy conditions.

This is great news for AWE, as new far-flung records indicate that wind paradises are widely distributed. This was only a theoretic hope, but now plentiful empirical evidence agrees. Pioneers like Gaddis first traveled the world to make amazing flights where no one before had, but now new records provide a far larger database of spectacular peak performances. I had planned to cite specific data revealing new wind paradises, but the trend toward records in so many new places tends to refute the old idea of uniquely favorable places. Almost any day, record-setting conditions may occur almost anywhere.

Special places and times to fly do count, but such conditions are far more common than was long supposed. A general case does marginally stand out, a flurry of new records in South America, both along the Southern Andean Range, in prevailing Westerlies, and along the North Coast, in boosted trade wind. This is perhaps the basis for the Andean Condor, the largest soaring bird, but wherever soaring birds thrive, so can human soaring and AWE thrive. Beyond even this widespread global soaring paradise picture, we hope for even wilder human and AWE soaring; in the Polar Vortexes, Tropospheric Jet Streams, and ITCZ.

To abide in soaring paradise as much as possible, the key challenge is to become as nomadic as birds and elite glider-pilots. Only nomadism gives the maximal capacity-factor, to practice AWE to it fullest potential. We have pondered what a persistent-flight civilization might look like, but only now begin to realise just how nomadic such a civilization should be. If large populations can "follow the wind", many problems resolve (like minimal grid load-demand when and where wind "goes away"). XC and endurance soaring records will no longer be so remarkable in the New Goden Age, AWE without Borders.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24068 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Wilson, German, and the AWES Forum have championed tethered wing pairs as capable of sustained soaring across a strong enough wind gradient. We have tended to overlook tethered wing pairs for powered flight, barely noting the idea. Its time to think further.

Imagine two (or more) wings that step-tow each other. Two PG or HG would tow themselves upward by towing toward each other, On close approach, they would turn away and glide, paying out line. Anyone knowledgeable in aerotow can understand how sustained flight is feasible by this simple method. Cordless power tools might serve as prototype winch-motors, to get started. Its not hard to envision the basic flight patterns to navigate at will, and consider various schemes to provide power, especially by operating the winch-motors in gen mode to charge batteries, by known free-flight AWE principles.

This is a class of flying machine that really does seem to require the reel-gen (motor-gen) method, although turbine/prop versions are also possible. Even with turbine/props, a powered reeling capability would still be wanted, so the pure-reeling winch-powered flight concept is simplest in principle, and perhaps most efficient. This concept space could someday develop as a wandering flying-city capability, but maybe only on Wubbo's condition; that we would have to boldly choose to live so.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24069 From: dave santos Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Cordage O&M Industrial Standard for AWE
Key cordage standards to inform Open AWE, to integrate with aviation standards in TACO 2.0-

Cordage Institute International Guideline
CI 2001-04
Fiber Rope Inspection and Retirement Criteria

Enhanced Fiber Rope Durability and Safer Use of Fiber Rope

http://www.ropecord.com/cordage/publications/CI2001.pdf


pending topic- prospects for automated cordage inspection and replacement
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24070 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24071 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24072 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs

Their site is using both http   and https, so 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24073 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Wow! On this forum we only touched on this concept in the past, but the Hawks, starting from JoeF's lead, explored many details over five glorious pages of expert posts-

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2470&sid=3188913341059fcb0c9d4230df415df2

Its says a lot that multiple experienced HG pilots saw not just engineering challenges, but were so excited about the possibilities. JoeF had identified a topology not yet noted here, a ring formation were a tightening tether ring could tow up a large number of units. There were many useful facts brought forward, like how a 130lb wife at the surface had no problem holding the tether to her husband kiting aloft (manlifitng), or a simple calculation that <1kW can sustain human flight in an efficient setup, or that sweeping in low wind on a tether in fact does extend the flight envelope (which we knew theoretically, but is proven). These experts immediately saw a superior efficiency potential to towing v. prop-drive. Joe had also identified the simplest proof-of-concept (two kites on a stretched bungee). It was also noted how each individual winch load velocity sums easily to flight velocity.

The shared redundant finding of feasibility suggests this may be a major method in the future. Some of the hacker-pilots already saw in it a DIY opportunity to extend their sport with available components and current knowledge. There was even a bit of sage principle- "failure is the path to success". Once again, now is a good time to revisit this past topic, to further develop it.

Expanding on JoeF's wing/winch ring topology; consider it analogous to the margin of a jellyfish bell pumping. The winch/wing ring would contract and then reset to its expanded state by each glider using extra momentum to pull-up past vertical to inverted outward flight, recover level flight, and repeat. This is a different aerobatic maneuver than turning away horizontally, and could also be done by a simple tethered-pair.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24074 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Prospects for automated cordage inspection and replacement
Expanding on past suggestions for automated kiteline inspection by machine-vision, etc:

- Line can be inspected by running thru a device, or a device can run along a line.
- All sides and internal state of the line must be inspected.
- Simultaneous visual and tactile/acoustic inspection is required.
- Wear/damage comes in many forms, as covered in Cordage O&M Standards.
- Automated Logging and Recomended Action to Manual Standard.
- Automated Line Hotswapping Capability ultimately desired.

This is a fine area for someone to pioneer actual hardware experiments. Surely there is already somewhere automated inspection of cordage in manufacturing, for us to build on. LabView machine vision is a ready tool for prototype inspection system. Pioneering acoustic inspection would not be too hard to cobble.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24075 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Self-destructing Kiteline (Kite Killer variant); Instant Kiteline
When things go bad in tethered aviation, often tethers themselves are the primary menace.

What if kiteline self-destructed on command? Many an emergency would be resolved. The simplest starting idea would be to fly high-speed fuse cord with an ignition source. This must not start a fire, so better ideas are wanted, like line that just melts. The ideal would be a line that instantly turns to powder, liquid, or small segments. This is one more Smart Line capability to add (composing sonnets is another).

Heck, the inverse corollary method is Instant Kiteline, wherever needed, Spider-style or beyond. Even a spider does not have instant self-destructing line, but does eat its own line to recycle silk and restore pristine line state. No IP claimed for safety or visionary ideas. "Tossing a line" is a primitive instant line deployment model.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24076 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Moravec's Swarms and 3D Flash Printing of Kites in Mid-air
Hans Moravec is a noted AI pioneer and computer science professor who I was honored to meet when he came to Austin decades ago. He had just published a popular book, Mind Children, taking robotics and AI concepts to revolutionary outcomes.

One of Han's ideas was flying swarms of smart particles that could take any form and function desired. At that time, 3D printing was also emerging in an Austin lab that many of us visited, so the idea of smart matter coming together in 3D was already in-the-air, but we hardly imagined all the possibilities of this vast new frontier.

Imagine a waist pouch containing a flash 3D printer, with a load of graphene. If you were to fall from a height, imagine a personal assitent agent that triggers the flash priinter to project a parachute as needed; as a "magic-bullet". How cool is that?

Simple ideas compounded- printing smart particles and projectile printing. In the ideal version, the graphene would recoil back into the pack, ready for the next job, like a shelter, clothing on demand, and so on. These ideas are easy to scoff at, but a diligent hacker could actually build crude working prototypes. Given time and passion, technology outstrips even our wildest imagination (if it does not kill us).

In our AWES SciFi context, imagine vast airborne lattices that synthesize and recycle, in place, dynamically. The path to such revolutionary techne is many small steps. We have well begun.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24077 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: After futzing AWE, Joby Aviation raises 100M for "flying car"
Having failed at AWE, but selling its motor tech to Makani-GoogleX, Joby has now fully reinvented itself as a flying-car air-taxi venture, and raised a cool 100 million. The mad-money sweetens the bitter pill that autonomous electric VTOL still falls short on range and safety, for many years to come, and even then the market is mostly foreseen as a rich person's solution to status display. Adverse technical trends include persistent mass-energy limitations of current batteries, and the dying out of skilled human pilots, while certified safe urban autopiloting is still only a dream. No more mention of a waiting-list for cancelled premature product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/air-taxi-startup-joby-has-a-working-prototype-and-a-fresh-100m
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24078 From: dougselsam Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
40 mph =~ 60 fps
60 fps (speed) x 60 lbs (line tension) = 3600 lb f / s (power of winch)
1 hp = 550 lb f / s
3600 / 550 = 6.5 hp
Pedaling (with 1 D, 1 A, and 1 L) won't cut it.  ("peddling" means "selling")
Funny, when i did it in my head I was getting about 1 hp.  So much for my head.
Maybe someone should check my math.
Also consider a glider + pilot weighing half of 550 lbs = 275 lbs
It would take, by definition, assuming NO losses, 1 hp to raise that glider + pilot, 2 feet per second= 120 feet per minute (beep beep beep)
(It's the "no losses" clause that makes all this by far an underestimate of power required, I would think.)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24079 From: dave santos Date: 10/23/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
The US Hawks Forum shared crude calculations starting from different numbers and ended up the ballpark of 1hp, a typical value in human powered flight, marginal but real. There is no gross erroe in a conservative ~1kw assumption for level flight, as a rounded-up figure for ease of "in the ballpark" calculation. 6hp suggests a fairly good climb rate possible. HTA flight power by mass has been badly argued (no-power-required claim) on the AWES Forum, Its simple to roughly estimate required power, but tedious (or vain) to predict precisely.

The excitement is the inventive-leap of envisioning and prototyping a novel class of flying machine, to apply whatever power is needed. The numbers will stand as measured, and the predictions can be vetted thereby. Even when prediction and testing do not match, engineering science advances regardless, by the beauty of testing. The key prediction is, "it can work".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24080 From: dougselsam Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
The calculation I shared took the numbers from the hypothetical scenario on the U.S. Hawks discussion, of a 40 mph relative speed between two hang gliders winching toward each other, with a line tension of 60 lbs., requesting someone with an engineering background to run the numbers and provide the results of how much power that specific scenario would require.  So, being familiar with the simple formula required, due to years of designing wind turbines, I plugged the numbers into the formula and provided the result of 6.5 horsepower.

Luckily I used a calculator so I (hopefully) wouldn't screw it up.   It's not an opinion or an estimate, it's the actual (very simple) answer to the requested calculation from the U.S. Hawks discussion, reflecting approximate, realistic hang-glider parameters. 

The number of 6.5 HP does not pertain to human-powered "gossamer" aircraft, only to one specific, exact scenario outlined in the U.S. Hawks forum, pertaining to two (2) hang gliders winching toward each other at a total relative speed of 40 mph, with a line tension of 60 lbs. 

To cover my butt for some mistake, and also to encourage others to perform and understand the simple calculation, I provided the formula, with a suggestion that someone should check my math, but really, the answer is pretty easy for anyone familiar with basic physics 101.

Still happy for anyone to check my math.  :)

By the way, if both hang gliders had their own winch pulling toward each other at 20 mph each, the total line tension is still 60 lbs.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24081 From: dougselsam Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Remember, 6.5 HP would be for TWO (2) hang-gliders (hopefully) CLIMBING, NOT level flight of a single HG.
The conversation would be more complete if it included real-world numbers from real-world towing.
How many horsepower do existing winches actually use for launching?
One tidbit that might help is the following:
I have a friend with a Mosquito motorized harness:
The engine is listed in the manual as 16 HP = 12 kW.
My friend requires a small hill to launch using this powered harness, because it lacks sufficient power for a clean takeoff from flat ground, at least at our 3600 foot elevation.
Once airborne, he can climb slowly, not sure exactly how many feet-per-second, but it's not a super-fast climb, that's for sure.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24082 From: tallakt Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
To calculate the power necessasy to stay afloat, simply estimate the lifting force F necessary and the speed of the wing v. Then estimate the total drag of your wings and tether. This should give you a L/D number. The power loss is simply: P = v * F / (L/D)

This relates to how efficiently a wing can provide a lifting force vs the drag losses involved
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24083 From: tallakt Date: 10/24/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Btw: metric units will most likely simplify your life a lot ;-)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24084 From: dougselsam Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Good point, And lift/drag is the same as the glide ratio.
6:1 for single-surface gliders and 10 or more for high-performance gliders, though some say these figures are often optimistic.
With regard to the metric system, I'm not necessarily an overwhelmingly big fan.
The metric system is dumbed-down, for people who need to count on their fingers.
Anytime someone is trying to shove some new system down your throat, be skeptical.
Just because we have ten fingers does not make 10 some magic number for calculating or geometry.
12 is a good number, in use probably predating ancient Sumeria.
The approximate number of days in the year is where we get our 360-degree circle.
Would you rather have a 100-degree circle, because we have 10 fingers?
Ever notice how awkward 10-dollar bills and 50-dollar bills are to use?
How they don't fit very well into your wad?  "Let's seem do I put the 50 with my hundreds or after my 20's, near the 10's?"
Evidence shows we used to use base 8, with 9 being a "new" number. (nueve in espanol)
Having been involved in designing and building homes, I can tell you 3, 4, 12, 16, 24, etc., are numbers that make construction go more smoothly.  The foot comes from pacing off distances, the meter from pulling rope - center of your chest to end of your arm.  There was probably a reason they decided to divide a foot into 12 inches instead of 10.  People had to be smarter back then, because they had less information.  Today most of humanity is relegated to swarming over the ancient ruins of previous civilizations, wondering what they were all about, often not even knowing, until recently, they could dig down and find treasure.  What happened?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24085 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: MADE IN GERMANY Flying power station

MADE IN GERMANY

Flying power station

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24087 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

I presented FlygenKite which is a soft kite carrying at less one turbine on a bar settled between the two lines  

Videos on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE3GEEDd0AI,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsTJl27cuo,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rLbvSATEbg.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoeZiTorXj0 : Dan Tracy (Pacific Sky power) presented a prototype where the turbines are settled in each end on the bar.


I experimented several concepts and studied some scientific papers of which "The Betz limit applied to Airborne Wind Energy" (see the attachment), link on: 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324448503_The_Betz_limit_applied_to_Airborne_Wind_Energy. This paper suggests and shows that " Loyd's lift power AWE devices during the reel-out phase can harvest up to 4/27≈15% of usable power available in the wind, i.e. exactly 1/4 of the theoretical limit of the horizontal-axis turbines and AWE drag power systems with ideal airfoils.".

An AWE drag power system is a kite with turbines aloft like Makani' wing or FlygenKite.

In my opinion the FlygenKite configuration is both a promising system and the easiest to be built from my concepts. Soft wing scaling is not an insurmountable task (see SkySails' wing), and turbines scaling could be overcome by using numerous small turbines. 

So I am returning towards the FlygenKite configuration in order to try to improve it. Help and observations are welcomed.

Perhaps a company can be created in order to better investigate this system.


PierreB

 


  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24088 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Re: Tyrus Wong
Google's Search today featured a cartoon video
celebrating Tyrus Wong's 108th birthday. 
Such gets the "kite" message out in a big way. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24089 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/25/2018
Subject: Human body as the tether wing A new attraction at Dubai's Kite Be

Human body as the tether wing


A new attraction at Dubai's Kite Beach

has the human body as a kite-system's wing. 

The tether set is a set of stretched bungee cords. The anchors are two towers.

Upon launch the low L/D human body flies as you will see HERE.

"XDubai has announced that its new attraction, the XDubai Slingshot, will be open to the public on October 26, 2018 along Kite Beach"


We have had prior mentions of items in a similarity space. 

One was in retrieving a human off land by a passing powered aircraft  via a long tether and catch. 

Others are body-dragging in water.  And kiteboarding is a cousin where the human body is a wing in a kite system.   More generally traditional kiting may see the human string holder anchor system as a kited human. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24090 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24091 From: Rod Read Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
Hi Pierre and AWES forum, 

There is an obvious design synergy available between drag based flygen concept space (FlyGenKite / Makani) and the kite-turbine-network space (Daisy).

Adding an onboard generator to each blade of a kite-turbine-network is a "simple" way to maintain smooth control of a fast path.
But why soft kites?
With a networked array of blades... whilst the scale of individual blades can be kept relatively small to avoid mass penalties, the performance of each blade can be kept high, the overall networked blade area and the swept area can be very large.

The further potential (if ugly) advantage over standard Daisy performance is instead of reversing & driving the complete net from the ground (to maintain rotation and gain altitude & tension), The repellors / propellors could be used powered to maintain rotation, lift and tension.

ps nice to see you all talking politely.
pps Just got back from a month in China.
ppps My phone couldn't authenticate while there and I think that got my Twitter account blocked. 
pppps Oatcake and cheese for lunch at last

Rod Read
http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk
Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



    


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24092 From: dave santos Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
My recollection of the US Hawks analysis was not that 40mph was claimed as a theoretic minimal efficient flight velocity (its not), just simply the sum of two 20mph solo-tow efforts, with 20mph standing as close to minimal safe flight speed of a single wing.

As such, 40mph wing velocity assumption would reduce L/D and wrongly skew the feasibility calculation, since it would entail either higher wing-loading or a larger heavier wing than actually needed. We are including PGs here, as soft-wings, and disregarding the fastest hottest HG's, which are rather exotic and less suited to a real demo. A flight velocity of 30mph seems like a good rough assumption for an efficient distance-made-good glide somewhere between the slowest and fasted velocity ranges. One could also reason from minimum sink-rate as the efficiency metric, for expanded comparison.

Metric-units-only is indeed more scientific and consistent in use, however, units in feet, miles, etc., remain in standard use in regulated aviation, and physics has many such anachronistic unit traditions, so we maintain proficiency in all kinds of physical units, interchangeably.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24093 From: dave santos Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
Agreed that the soft wing and turbine combo is a validated synergy of soft-and hard wing, not just in our AWES prototypes, but also in Powered ParaGliders, which are the simplest cheapest form of powered human aviation. Even the Space Shuttle relied on a soft drogue, as the most extreme rigid-soft aero case.

Congratulations, Rod, for your status as the face of Chinese Twitter trolling :) Did you tour Weifang's kite industry? That's the very heart of the soft-wing world.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24094 From: tallakt Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
40 mph ~ 18 m/s
weight of human: 80 kg
glide ratio: 10

minimum power for sustained flight: P= 18 * 80 * 9.81 / 10 ~ 1400 W

1.4 KW ~ 1.8 horsepower

The power of lifting the same person depends on the speed he is travelling upwards:

P_2 = 80 * 9.81 * v

so approx 800 W per lifting speed 1 m/s. which is quite quick imho.

As there are no other losses here, assuming constant flying speed, a winch delivering more than 3 kW would not be effective for this purpose...

Tallak
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24095 From: tallakt Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Oh, and tether force incurs a loss similar to that of keeping the person flying; with a tether force T, the power needed for the wing to sustain it would be:

P_3 = T * v / 10

To make things simple for 80 kg worth of tether tension, the power lost is 1400 W like my calculation above.

This force T could be very high if the tether is aligned more horizontally during eg. launch
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24096 From: dougselsam Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Also consider the weight of the 10:1 glider is 70 lbs = 32 kg
So two (2) gliders would weigh 140 lbs.
And
the two (2) harnesses with parachutes have a significant weight
And
one person has stated a low-performance glider must be used (6:1 glide ratio), although no evidence was given
BUT
there are two (2) gliders and two pilots (so double the weights)
AND
The weight of the winch, tether, motor, batteries will be significant
Just ballpark reasoning here, but if you add the glider weight + harness weight + winch+tether+battery weight, then double the glider weight and pilot weight and harness/parachute weight (for two (2) gliders), the power heads up toward more than 10 HP, unless I'm missing something, which would not be unusual.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@... weight of human: 80 kg
glide ratio: 10

minimum power for sustained flight: P= 18 * 80 * 9.81 / 10 ~ 1400 W

1.4 KW ~ 1.8 horsepower

The power of lifting the same person depends on the speed he is travelling upwards:

P_2 = 80 * 9.81 * v

so approx 800 W per lifting speed 1 m/s. which is quite quick imho.

As there are no other losses here, assuming constant flying speed, a winch delivering more than 3 kW would not be effective for this purpose...

Tallak
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24097 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/26/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Hi Rod,

 

Soft kites can scale better and fly with lower wind in order to save partially take-off and landing operations. And my experiments showed that their manual control is easy: FlygenKite is very stable. In the other hand as Makani rigid wing fly faster the turbines aloft can be smaller.

Indeed if several soft or rigid flygen kites are used for the same circular path (in a same way as the blades of a horizontal-axis turbine) Daisy design is approached.

If rigid kites are used as blades the turbines can be settled in the tips of the wings. But I have a question: by taking account of different forces (of which centrifugal force) up to what diameter can the ring (carrying the rigid or soft wings) achieve?

PierreB

 

 

 

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24098 From: dougselsam Date: 10/27/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Tallak I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly.
Either I am misunderstanding your meaning, or you don't understand physics.
Tension in a line, by itself, does not use power.
Even if the line is moving.
The line TRANSMITS power, it doesn't USE power.
Power in at one end = power out at the other end.
In the reference frame of the tether, it is not even moving.
One person here has discussed this in the case of a boat towing another boat, calling it a "paradox" that the line itself doesn't heat up.  Whew - off the rails, sorry.
This is where I can only say no real engineering discussion is possible without understanding even basic high school physics.  "Step away from the pencil"...


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@...
P_3 = T * v / 10

To make things simple for 80 kg worth of tether tension, the power lost is 1400 W like my calculation above.

This force T could be very high if the tether is aligned more horizontally during eg. launch
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24099 From: tallakt Date: 10/27/2018
Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
Hi. I can assure you that I understand basic physics well, dont worry.

To provide a tether force (in addition to carrying the weight of the wing and the pilot), the wing need to create a lift force. This creation of force is not lossless, and this is why my previous calculation should be (I believe) valid. I am open to having done mistakes though.

So the power that must be added for a tethered wing should equal the drag of the wing and tether combined (effective total drag) for the part of the lift that constitues the tether tension force. If the power is not added, we will lose height or slow down, and eventually return to the ground.

To be even more precise, The tether force should be multiplied by a factor (in a very simplified mental model of tether drag for a kite) to compensate for the fact that the tether is stationary at one end, and moving with the wing at the other end. (My simple mental model of line drag is based on a stiff rod attached to the kite and anchor point with a joint at either end).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24100 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Hi Pierre, I agree 

Soft kites can scale better and fly with lower wind in order to save partially take-off and landing operations. And my experiments showed that their manual control is easy: FlygenKite is very stable. In the other hand as Makani rigid wing fly faster the turbines aloft can be smaller.

This I see as a good argument for using soft kites as lifting devices, However, We can't lose sight of the scale, safety and stability benefits made possible by networks of kites. 
As for control, there should be no need to manually fly a generating kite. Either type (rigid or soft) can be assisted to take off and land by drone through marginal conditions.

Indeed if several soft or rigid flygen kites are used for the same circular path (in a same way as the blades of a horizontal-axis turbine) Daisy design is approached.

Yes. Daisy as so far demonstrated is very low solidity. There is room for thousands of kites to work together in a single turbine. As the ring between two consecutive kites goes into tension when spinning, The link between 2 consecutive kites can be soft. Kite spacing on the ring can be expanded.

If rigid kites are used as blades the turbines can be settled in the tips of the wings. But I have a question: by taking account of different forces (of which centrifugal force) up to what diameter can the ring (carrying the rigid or soft wings) achieve?

With Dasiy blades being used as flygen. Put the repellor axis around the fuselage root connection to the ring not the blade tip ... It's much more balanced there.

It's impossible yet to say how wide an expandable diameter hollow tilted axis turbine diameter can become... Other than stating some obvious limits based on altitude, line reeling limits on layer separation, aspect configuration and weight needed.


As ever loads of work to do


Rod Read
http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk
Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



    



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24101 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite

Hi Rod,


Like this?

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24104 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/28/2018
Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
Attachments :

    Hi Rod,


    Like this?


    (I try again to attach the files.)


    PierreB


      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24105 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
    Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
    Tallek:
    So are you talking about just aerodynamic drag on a tether?
    I have to say, sorry, but from the way you write, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning.
    I realize sometimes it is difficult to squeeze what is in our heads out in the form of mere words.
    Thanks for understanding my confusion, and thanks for trying to get your message across.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24106 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
    Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
    Wiindmills using rings to support blades in a daisy configuration have been around for at least a couple hundred years:
    In fact, most water-pumping windmills have this "daisy" configuration, where the blades are arranged in a daisy-petal circle, using rings for support, so it is a proven winner.  Perhaps most working wind turbines, worldwide, use this daisy configuration. (?)

    The solidity of such a daisy configuration, as currently practiced, is usually considered too high for efficiently generating electricity.  Overall I believe the concept has many very promising possibilities.  Untested, of course.  So funny, out of the many many possibilities, how few ideas have actually been built and tested.  I looked online to see if I could find a flower that looks like Roddy's flying wind machine.   Roddy, how about calling your rotors "plumeria"?
    OK, OK, I'll keep looking.
    Note: Roddy built an AWE device capable of unattended operation using no computers, no group selfies, (no "group" required, in the first place), just a little ingenuity and elbow-grease.  :)

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24107 From: dougselsam Date: 10/28/2018
    Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
    My new candidate for visual similarity to Roddy's rotors:
    Canadian White Violet:Viola canadensis
    Violet family (Violaceae)

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24108 From: tallakt Date: 10/29/2018
    Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
    Attachments :
    I will try to make a more thorough explanation.

    We have a system consisting of a ground anchor point, a lifting wing, a tether and a human hanging from the wing. We are interested in the amount of power necessary to keep the human afloat. For simplicity, we'll add that the human has no drag loss, the anchor may provide any tether force without loss. This leaves us with a wing only and we disregard the tether. Only the human has mass. Also, we simplify the system consisting of wing and tether to be a lifting system with a total lift L and a total drag D, both scaling with wind speed [v] squared.  The ratio L/D is constant k, or the glide ratio. Please look also at the figure. The persons mass is m, and the gravitational acelleration g is 9.81 m/s/s. Also note zero wind is assumed - energy must be instilled into the system via a motor of some sort.

    We can agree that the tether force T is the same at the anchor point and at the wing.

    If everything is aligned vertically, we see that the vertical forces, assuming no change in height, is:

    L = T + G

    And in the horizontal plane only drag is working. As drag is the only force doing work, we find the power loss due to drag given by:
     
    P = D * v = L / k * v = (T + G) / k * v = T / k * v + m * g / k * v


    We can see from this formula that the power needed to compensate for this loss has a component dependent on the weight of the human and the tether tension. Choosing the mass of the person to 80 kg, the glide ratio k = 10, and the speed of the wing flying through the air 10 m/s, makes the portion of the power necessary to keep the structure afloat:

    P_human = m * g / k * v = 80 kg * 9.81 m/s/s / 10 * 10 ~ 800 W ~ 1.1 hp

    If the tether tension was "80 kg worth of force", the power loss for generating that force with the wing would also be 800 W. The wing would have to generate 160 kg worth of lift to provide both the lift and tether tension.

    Looking at energy conservation, we assume that the motor power P is such that the human is flying at a constant speed v, I believe in more general terms, with any angle of the tether, we could say that (with h' being the derivative of height above ground, and D being the combined drag of wing and tether):

    P = m g h' + v * D

    I wont go into further detail here, but it seems in the more horizontal tether case, most of the drag stems from the need to create a larger tether tension, while when vertical, the tether tension could be small or almost zero without any negative effects, and thus flying with minimum instilled power.




      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24109 From: Rod Read Date: 10/29/2018
    Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
    Doug, Thanks for the old Daisy farm pump turbine link http://totaralodge.tripod.com/totaradaisy.htm . It's ace!
    OMG I've been in Kaitaia. Friends from Lewis used to live there. They're now on super remote Pitcairn Island... Might be my ideal clients.

    Daisy, (Capital D, I like talking to them.) are named after the daisy flower because the petals do not join the center. https://goo.gl/images/ZrwFX4
    Instead, they are arrayed around a central minimal perimeter. I also like the coincidence of daisy chains and kite ring stacks being very similar.
    Further, while picking petals from a daisy flower (Dave S loves me, Dave S loves me not ...) You can rearrange the petal array with a wider diameter.

    The whole point originally was that the blades (petals) tether lines would expand to fly larger diameter paths.
    Control of a Daisy set and this expansion possibility are now easier using networks of tethers.
    A set of simple reels at the blade root, where there is a ring segment fuselage, will allow the mix of compressive and tensile parts of an active ring to expand dynamically.

    Controlling it ... is going to be ... well who knows... fun, interesting and impressive probably.

    Since we have a solid ring segment fuselage part... Well control may not be too tough if wee add repellors on the wing and maybe a folding prop to aid lift.
    I am intending to develop a new drawing soon to explain massive set deployments. There are quite a few possibilities there.


    Rod Read
    http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk
    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



        


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24110 From: dougselsam Date: 10/29/2018
    Subject: Re: Winch-powered Flight of Tethered Wing Pairs
    Tallak:
    Sorry you lost me again.  First, my computer will not open the image.  Seems to happen a lot with Yahoo - maybe some setting on my computer is at fault.
    You started by carefully outlining a scenario of a single glider and winch, and it sounds like you were considering a case with a weightless glider pulled by a weightless tether, straight overhead?  Is that what you mean by "everything is aligned vertically"?  If everything is aligned vertically, I don't see how the tether could pull in any direction except straight down.
    You defined your symbols, giving us a small g for the acceleration of gravity, but then your first equation is "L = T + G" - what does (capital letter) G stand for?  I did not see "G" defined.  Was it in the diagram I could not open?
    I thought we were considering two gliders winching toward each other, where "everything is arranged" horizontally... You're talking about a single glider with a winch on the ground.
    A 10:1 glider weighs about half of a pilot's weight, by the way, which is not negligible.  Add the weight of the harness, helmet, glider bag stowed in the wing, food, water, parachute, survival gear, winter clothing, parachute, radio, phone, firearm, maps, beads to trade with the natives, kitchen sink, dog, etc., and you could come close to double the pilot's weight, total.  OK I was kidding about the kitchen sink...


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <tallak@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24111 From: dougselsam Date: 10/29/2018
    Subject: Re: R&D for a soft wing carrying turbines like FlygenKite
    Hi Roddy
    You are getting a laugh out of me.
    Yes I too think there are so many promising possibilities.
    So many - few see them, nobody tries them.
    Funny to see how people with millions and millions to spend seem to have so little imagination, taking ten years to decide a circle is better then a figure-8, while creative individuals can proceed on at least a limited basis with a near-zero budget.