Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 23177 to 23226 Page 356 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23177 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Re: Chanute's treasury of early flight dreamers and tinkerers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23178 From: dave santos Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Concept Refinement for a Looping Turbine-on-a-Wing FlyGen under a Pi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23179 From: dave santos Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Re: Concept Refinement for a Looping Turbine-on-a-Wing FlyGen under

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23180 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/4/2017
Subject: Raised in the air above Cologny hanging on a kite (1844)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23181 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Translating Kites XC across an Anchor-Field

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23182 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23183 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Giant Kite-Flying Androids

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23184 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Giant Kite-Flying Androids

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23185 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Kite-Train Lattice Waves (video)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23186 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23188 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23189 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23190 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23191 From: andrew@airhes.com Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Air HES http://airhes.com/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23192 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Cloud albedo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23193 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Cloud albedo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23194 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Cloud albedo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23195 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Cloud albedo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23196 From: dave santos Date: 11/10/2017
Subject: Re: Cloud albedo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23197 From: benhaiemp Date: 11/10/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news :

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23198 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/11/2017
Subject: Sebastien Gros

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23199 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/11/2017
Subject: The Kite Experiment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23200 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/12/2017
Subject: Back to wire energy transfer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23201 From: dave santos Date: 11/12/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23202 From: dave santos Date: 11/12/2017
Subject: Re: Back to wire energy transfer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23203 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23204 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23205 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23206 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23207 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23208 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23209 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23210 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Yet another AWE market analysis mash-up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23211 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23212 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23213 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23214 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Fort Felker's AWEC2017 presentation video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23215 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23216 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Fort Felker's AWEC2017 presentation video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23217 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Kite Plant Operating for One Continuous Year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23218 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: How Might Small AWES Significantly Impact World Energy Supply

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23219 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Tidal Stream Generators

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23220 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: Re: Kite Plant Operating for One Continuous Year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23221 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: Re: How Might Small AWES Significantly Impact World Energy Supply

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23222 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: Fort's "Valley of Despair"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23223 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: TUDelft video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23224 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: Some critique of conventional wind and a nod for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23225 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: Nice Skysails Presentation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23226 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/15/2017
Subject: New TUDelft student concept




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23177 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Re: Chanute's treasury of early flight dreamers and tinkerers
Rick Masters forwarded  an excellent resource on Chanute's book:
Progress in Flying Machines
One may start at page 1
https://www.loc.gov/resource/gcfr.0069/?sp=1
There are over 300 pages of Chanute's good work.
About:
Personal name
Chanute, Octave, 1832-1910.

Main title
Progress in flying machines, by O. Chanute, C.E.

Published/Created
New York, The American Engineer and Railroad Journal [1894]
==============================
Full book with allowance to download individual pages as needed for study and public sharing!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23178 From: dave santos Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Concept Refinement for a Looping Turbine-on-a-Wing FlyGen under a Pi
This is not a new idea in Open-AWE, since KiteLab Ilwaco came up with the concept over 5 years ago, actually testing a crude prototype, but using a friction-brake on the wing-turbine to stand in for a flygen electrical load. This was not considered a primary contender for an AWES solution, but as a radically simplified version of Makani's turbine-on-a-wing down-select. The basic idea dates back to Payne, Loyd, and others, but endless variations are possible. Since Makani continues to insist its still on track with its M600, despite all outside doubts, this concept space remains in play.

In this case, of the Open-AWE workaround is to create an even hotter "cleaner" wing than Makani, with a single flygen turbine. Its reasoned on various grounds that a smaller scale ~10kW is the unit-scale sweet-spot (if any) for this sort of AWES, but with denser network packing in airspace to compensate. Only the flygen and controller, and perhaps an AoA servo channel, is needed on the wing. Electrical power is carried down a conductor by a swivel slip-ring contact to islolate tether from looping twist. The pilot-kite provides the autopilot capability, and the rig is flown by conventional kite methods by the pilot-in-command. The short bridles are worth fairing.

Its worth repeating that a pilot-kite supporting a power wing not only saves money and radically simplifies control and safety of a hot wing, but also adds to the power capacity by offsetting the parasitic cost of the extra mass of a hot rigid wing. The looping path can also be quite tighter and higher-on-average, with a desirable higher-frequency cycle. This may the ideal 100W AWES, since small flygens are not so scaling-law challenged as large.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23179 From: dave santos Date: 11/3/2017
Subject: Re: Concept Refinement for a Looping Turbine-on-a-Wing FlyGen under
Remarking the interesting potential to also drive this AWES in motor-mode, with no wind. It could in principle motor around aloft like a powered paraglider during lulls, and also somehow launch and land under power, using prop-guards and wheels like powered paragliders do. The hybrid of fabric soft-kite tethered to rigid motor-glider may prove a practical realization of the classic two-kite dream. Many unusual flight modes are possible, like VTOL of the motor-glider (turbine-on-a-wing) also surface-parked while the soft-kite (pilot-kite) stays ready aloft. In effect, a powered kite vehicle may do almost anywhere what kite surfers do along shorelines.

If the turbine-on-a-wing is really a useful aerospace idea, it should also compete on a tower as an alternative HAWT.



 

This is not a new idea in Open-AWE, since KiteLab Ilwaco came up with the concept over 5 years ago, actually testing a crude prototype, but using a friction-brake on the wing-turbine to stand in for a flygen electrical load. This was not considered a primary contender for an AWES solution, but as a radically simplified version of Makani's turbine-on-a-wing down-select. The basic idea dates back to Payne, Loyd, and others, but endless variations are possible. Since Makani continues to insist its still on track with its M600, despite all outside doubts, this concept space remains in play.

In this case, of the Open-AWE workaround is to create an even hotter "cleaner" wing than Makani, with a single flygen turbine. Its reasoned on various grounds that a smaller scale ~10kW is the unit-scale sweet-spot (if any) for this sort of AWES, but with denser network packing in airspace to compensate. Only the flygen and controller, and perhaps an AoA servo channel, is needed on the wing. Electrical power is carried down a conductor by a swivel slip-ring contact to islolate tether from looping twist. The pilot-kite provides the autopilot capability, and the rig is flown by conventional kite methods by the pilot-in-command. The short bridles are worth fairing.

Its worth repeating that a pilot-kite supporting a power wing not only saves money and radically simplifies control and safety of a hot wing, but also adds to the power capacity by offsetting the parasitic cost of the extra mass of a hot rigid wing. The looping path can also be quite tighter and higher-on-average, with a desirable higher-frequency cycle. This may the ideal 100W AWES, since small flygens are not so scaling-law challenged as large.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23180 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/4/2017
Subject: Raised in the air above Cologny hanging on a kite (1844)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23181 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Translating Kites XC across an Anchor-Field
In early Forum posts the idea was posed that a kite could travel anywhere by sending out glider-drones to establish new surface anchors, including sea-anchors,  to haul against. An ideal system would of course tap AWE, but could be driven many other ways. This concept was playfully called "seven-league-boots". Bolonkin has the closest patent IP for a static-legged scheme, and Pete Lynn shared a sort of one-legged version. Steerable tether-dragging developed for arctic ballooning is also prior art, but the general field is still quite virgin.

To update the foundational architectural analysis, lets add kite translation across an established anchor field, where drones might fly up to the translating kite with the new tethers. Lets class boots-mode as "Spider-Man", and anchor-field tether-mode as "Tarzan", as intuitive models. Note also the potential of complex XC mixed modes, and also a single pick-and-place link, like a kite-ferry to cross a river crosswind from a single upwind anchor. This general method of translation could move unprecedented massive bulky payloads through the air.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23182 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Multi-span Kite Arches
Once again, an overlooked major AWES topology surfaces to formal analysis, since we are apparently still in early phases of AWES classification. There are a few partial or weak precedents for the rotating multi-span kite arches identified here, like non-rotating barrage-balloon arrays, and a few hobby-kite multi-spans. Multi-span kite arches have not been specifically identified before in AWE, to my best knowledge, but may be a key scaling means. Just picture a wider regular arch with anchor-tethers added all along it between the end-anchors.

Ever since Payne proposed a mile-wide AWE arch almost fifty years ago, we have been overawed by that bold unit-scale assumption. Its likely km unit-scale is closer to the design sweet spot, given ground-handling challenges and FAA 2000ft altitude limits. Years of kite farm architectural study suggests that AWES arrays should rotate in a thin line, to conserve resources and avoid wake loss/interference effects. Its proposed that active belay from anchor to anchor is as workable as all the established industrial cases of trains hitching, cranes hooking, and so on. Given these assumptions, a multi-span kite arch topology seems desirable, much as multi-spans are an ancient bridge lateral scaling means. The advantages are obvious- redundance, scalability, etc.. The disadvantage is if some single-span economy of scale is missed.

Once again the question is whether quasi-heroic "rag-and-string" sailing-in-the-sky methods can beat the fancy aerospace concepts under development. What an exciting engineering contest between two impressive contenders. Even as the high-complexity teams double-down on their high-tech faith, multi-span kite arches hereby enter the low-complexity AWE school quiver, double-down on reliance on simple belay. Reminder that the low-complexity AWE paradigm abstracts high TRL COTS components as "simple", to the degree they are ready solutions, like say an electric car based AWES. Nothing in AWE is simpler than rag-and-string; porototype kiteplanes, by contrast, are bleeding-edge complex.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23183 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Giant Kite-Flying Androids
Here is a cool AWES concept, fully workable in principle; honoring Wubbo's vision that we can create whatever kind of AWE we choose, rather than be enslaved to boring industrial-utilitarianism-

Giant Kite-Flying Humanoid Robots could imitate human kite-flyer dynamics, which are still superior to all our crude AWES dynamics. Yes, android kite flying is definitely a high-complexity approach, however, humanoid robots developed generally are in principle able to fly kites, and duplicate many other human behaviors (young Pocock marveled that even rocks somehow know how to fly kites, if not at kite-pro level)

Our unique challenge as kite technologists is not the giant android, but its kite, with associated unicorn-garden :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23184 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Giant Kite-Flying Androids
Proof that the hobby kite world is far in advance of any AWE venture-









 

Here is a cool AWES concept, fully workable in principle; honoring Wubbo's vision that we can create whatever kind of AWE we choose, rather than be enslaved to boring industrial-utilitarianism-

Giant Kite-Flying Humanoid Robots could imitate human kite-flyer dynamics, which are still superior to all our crude AWES dynamics. Yes, android kite flying is definitely a high-complexity approach, however, humanoid robots developed generally are in principle able to fly kites, and duplicate many other human behaviors (young Pocock marveled that even rocks somehow know how to fly kites, if not at kite-pro level)

Our unique challenge as kite technologists is not the giant android, but its kite, with associated unicorn-garden :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23185 From: dave santos Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Kite-Train Lattice Waves (video)
A kit- train in a fresh breeze will develop strong lattice waves. Here is a nice video of two trains side-by-side. These hobby kiters have to know what they are doing, one of their trains even known to have uprooted a fire hydrant, nevertheless, many toy kites can be tamed as one easier than a single kite of comparable area.

Note how the waves travel down the train from the most-excited upper region. Consider how these trains would synchronize if cross-linked, and how elastic side-guy lines could maintain anti-braid stability. Each kite is sweeping an eight pattern in perfect coordination with its neighbors, the same lattice dynamics of perfect crystals made of identical atoms. Consider how periodic side PTO tag lines along the train could extract low-complexity crosswind power. Power is far trickier to extract at the anchor, since the multiple waves sum to nearly constant tension, however, the kites could be phased to pump at the base by various means.

Obviously a prime spacious kite field with cool smooth air; these are real kite folks practicing at a high level. Kevlar tether is commonly paired to the cheapest kites by this global kite-train subculture of perhaps a hundred or so souls-






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23186 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches
Early in forum we had mention by me of a surround-earth multi-span kite system; I had a drawing; you commented that you thought also that it was feasible. 

For years I've had the following as index.html matter:
"Kite energy systems are machines performing practical works, producing energy for tertiary uses, or otherwise enhancing the universe. Technical energy kite machines consist of cooperative sets: anchor set, tether set, wing set. The anchor set and tether set may also be viewed as wing sets.  Such machines are studied at all scales from very tiny to world-surround."     

The "world-surround" is because we covered some multi-span kite system concepts that indeed proposed full earth-surround. 

Also, we have had coverage toward "fences" that have multi-span; the count of posts of the fence was left unlimited; the count of rungs or runners of wings in the fence kite system was left indefinite; such fences are multi-span kite systems. PTO varies. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches
See all notes on 
as part of the early work; see comments at the bottom of that page. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23188 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches
See all notes on 
as part of the early work; see comments at the bottom of that page. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23189 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches
That page featured a second kind of surround-earth where the multi-span occurred without tethers to the ground. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23190 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/5/2017
Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

Joe Faust <Notes@energykitesystems.net

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23191 From: andrew@airhes.com Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Air HES http://airhes.com/
Dave, thanks for your remarks.
BTW, about albedo: we suppose that the AirHES will use only bottom part of clouds in order not to influence on integral albedo of clouds that defined by the upper parts of clouds.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23192 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Cloud albedo
​Cloud albedo
======================
Teased by a post by AirHES
this topic thread may hold a study of cloud albedo and AWES.

=======================
Start:
1. See AirHES post that teased:  HERE at message 23191.

=======================


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23193 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
Subject: Re: Cloud albedo
​An abstract of a related paper by Anne Kite

The albedo of broken cloud fields

Authors

    1. Meteorological Research Flight, RAE, Farnborough
    2. Current affiliation:
      1. Systems Designers Scientific, Pembroke House, Pembroke Broadway, Camberley, Surrey
      Search for more papers by this author
    3. =======================================

    If someone finds the full article, please post the link; thanks.
    ============================================

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23194 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
    Subject: Re: Cloud albedo
    Found it:
    by Anne Kite in online issue of
    =======================================


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23195 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/9/2017
    Subject: Re: Cloud albedo
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23196 From: dave santos Date: 11/10/2017
    Subject: Re: Cloud albedo
    Keep in mind daylight albedo cools the planet by reflecting sunlight back to space while night albedo traps surface heat. Therefore night cloud harvest is favored to reverse global warming. The same principle applies in reverse with cloud creation, including jet con trails.
    --------------------------------------------
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23197 From: benhaiemp Date: 11/10/2017
    Subject: Re: Minesto news :

    Relevant Dave's analysis. 1300 tons anchor is a quite huge value. Another water turbine, Sabella D10 (1 MW) http://www.farinia.com/sites/default/files/Ballast%20for%20Tidal%20Power_0.pdf, has gravity masses for about 200 tons.

    Perhaps the moving (air or water) crosswind kite requires a far heavier anchor, especially as the strength on the anchor moves with the kite.

    So concerning the anchor static AWES could be favored but other studies would be useful.


    PierreB



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23198 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/11/2017
    Subject: Sebastien Gros

    For research on Sebastien Gros and his contributions to AWE, the following two links may be helpful:


    HERE

    and

    Research Gate

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23199 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/11/2017
    Subject: The Kite Experiment

    This topic thread invites ever notes on the Benjamin Franklin

    kite experiment. The realm has AWE interface which may be discussed along the way.

    ============================================================

    Starting:

    https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-04-02-0135

    The Kite Experiment, 19 October 1752
    The Kite Experiment
    I. Printed in The Pennsylvania Gazette, October 19, 1752; also copy: The Royal Society. II. Printed in Joseph Priestley, The History and Present State of Electricity, with Original Experiments (London, 1767), pp. 179–81

    ================================================================

    Wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_experiment

    ================================================================

    Franklin Institute

    https://www.fi.edu/benjamin-franklin/kite-key-experiment

    One of their comments: "To dispel another myth, Franklin’s kite was not struck by lightning. If it had been, he probably would have been electrocuted, experts say. Instead, the kite picked up the ambient electrical charge from the storm."

    ==============================================


    Anyone over time may advance this topic and also relate comments of topic to AWE.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23200 From: Muzhichkov Date: 11/12/2017
    Subject: Back to wire energy transfer

    Hallo everybody!


    Maybe I will seem a bore, but I would like to raise the topic again with the transfer of electricity from the aeroborn down. As you know, I've made a online calculator (http://www.enornis.com/webapplication/) to make estimation of a system with electricity generator upstairs. So, if I choose:

    Aluminium as material for cable,

    500m high (with 30grad incline means 2000m),

    1,5 mm2 wire cross-section,

    generator power 3,8kW (for example V=15m/s, D1=3m,

    and 600V voltage (it's possible for standart isolation for such a thin cable)

    I become just 40% losses of voltage and energy,

    and this is with just 8,1kg weigh of cable (without insulation)

    With such parameters it is possible to live!!!



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23201 From: dave santos Date: 11/12/2017
    Subject: Re: Multi-span Kite Arches

    Agreed; many multi-span kite cases and concepts are known. This thread is specifically to identify multi-spans as a powerful scaling topology for large kitefarms, where single arches are not enough to span the available crosswind extent.

    Since AWES topology is still a new study, we are still defining basic terms, so we start with "brush", "comb", "drop-stitch", train, arch, etc., topologies, and multi-span arch is a natural extension of the basic set. JoeF invokes here a major Fence Topology, which we can define as commonly multi-span, but still distinguish from arch spans by stating that a kite fence's spans intuitively follow close to (skirts) the surface like any common fence, while an arch spans (soars) over the surface, with large empty spaces. In AWES design, an arch targets upper wind, while a fence also engages surface flow. Usage of "fence" to describe an upper arch or line-run may now be superseded.

    These are fuzzy classifications, with intermediate cases; not to be applied too strictly as we assign semantics to our kite architectures.


     

    Joe Faust <Notes@energykitesystems.net

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23202 From: dave santos Date: 11/12/2017
    Subject: Re: Back to wire energy transfer
    Hi Alex

    Its only boring if you do not write. 

    What is your insulation mass fraction estimate? Many common wires weigh more in insulation than conductor. Separate conductors are natural for networked kites with many lines. One massive pair of conductors with its own kite-lift could serve a large array. kPower has lifted conventional extension cords to raise AC power up, which can tolerate some overvoltage. Naked electric fence wire is a good balance of strength and conductance. Keep in mind cold temperature allows more current, and its colder high up.

    Did you mean 5000m high or 200m tilted?

    daveS


    On Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:44 AM, "muzhichkov@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Hallo everybody!

    Maybe I will seem a bore, but I would like to raise the topic again with the transfer of electricity from the aeroborn down. As you know, I've made a online calculator (http://www.enornis.com/webapplication/) to make estimation of a system with electricity generator upstairs. So, if I choose:
    Aluminium as material for cable,
    500m high (with 30grad incline means 2000m),
    1,5 mm2 wire cross-section,
    generator power 3,8kW (for example V=15m/s, D1=3m,
    and 600V voltage (it's possible for standart isolation for such a thin cable)
    I become just 40% losses of voltage and energy,
    and this is with just 8,1kg weigh of cable (without insulation)
    With such parameters it is possible to live!!!




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23203 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?
    It was thought Magenn was content to fade away, having raised millions for an impractical AWES concept, but in reviewing AlexM's AWE app, this odd rumor stood out- "Magenn, the financial director committed suicide". A quick search did not hit on any confirming source, so maybe AlexM can point us in the right direction. That's just one mystery; search did turn up current Magenn data, further confusing the picture-

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23204 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?
    ​Chief Financial Officer
    Company Name:    Magenn Power Inc.
    Dates Employed:    Oct 2005 – Present
    Employment Duration:    12 yrs 2 mos
    ===================================
    Highlight green on "Present" is mine.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23205 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?
    Looks like its auto-updated to calculate term from start to "present".



     




    On Monday, November 13, 2017 4:54 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    ​Chief Financial Officer
    Company Name:    Magenn Power Inc.
    Dates Employed:    Oct 2005 – Present
    Employment Duration:    12 yrs 2 mos
    ===================================
    Highlight green on "Present" is mine.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23206 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Re: Lingering Magenn Mysteries?
    ​Probably as you indicated.
    ==========================
    Dale George declares past:

    Dale George
    Production Manager
    Company Name
    MAGENN Power Inc. 
    Dates Employed
    Mar 2009 – Sep 2011  
    Employment Duration
    •2 yrs 7 mos  
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada Area     
    Go-to-guy on all design, build, proto-typing and deployment of the world's first high altitude wind turbine. see, "Infinite Winds", Discovery Channel, Planet Earth series​
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23207 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow
    Mass is defined in terms of inertia and gravity effects. Kites have a curious relation to mass. The normal part is a kite's rest-mass, in practice what the kite weighs on a scale. A kite in nominal lift mode pulls upward, reducing the weight a scale sees to negative-mass or negative-gravity values. A kite can also produce increased inertial mass readings, by a sort of virtual mass. A wing resists translation in heave dimension, as if it had added inertial mass, but does not resist so much in surge or sway dimensions. A tethered wing especially resists tethered to Earth. This is a remarkable extension of the Earth's own mass, by means of string. Another odd case is a kite parked on the surface by reversed AoA, as Revs are parked. They actually are pushing downward, in effect adding virtual mass to rest mass.

    An strict interpretation common in QM physics is to respect whatever is measured as such, and a kite truly produces exotic statistical mechanics, never mind how ordinary most folks consider kites. The Higgs Mechanism explains how mass accrues to particles. Since a Higgs Boson has recently been confirmed by the LHC, this is considered established science. How do scientists try to explain the Higgs mechanism to layfolk? In his book on the subject, Physicist Sean Carroll describes a vacuum chamber with "little robots...each...equipped with sail". Evacuated, the robots move about freely, but add air, and they acquire a mass effect. "The robots are particles," he goes on, "and their sails are their couplings to the Higgs Field, which is represented by air. My colleagues at Caltech in engineering and aeronautics (said) "that sounds awesome"".

    Just so, the kite has been leading us into the same analog particle physics, like knowledge miners connecting from opposite directions. Its never been a problem that some folks balk at any comparison of kites with particle physics; our pleasure is over the same dynamics as these Caltech folks admire. That AWES kite experts gained the same new insights at almost the same time as professional physicists is sweet. There is plenty of new engineering science to develop from the identification of the kite as a particle physics analog. QM even requires complex-mass effects, and its going to be fun to identify the kite's version. Its an open question if AWE will succeed by the limited engineering physics most developers presume, or if the vast intellectual edifice of advanced physics will prove decisive, as it has for semiconductors. We have barely begun to understand kites, and what they can do, but already different perspectives can agree, its "awesome".
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23208 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow


     "There is plenty of new engineering science to develop from the identification of the kite as a particle physics analog."  was added with dated credit to
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23209 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/13/2017
    Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23210 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Yet another AWE market analysis mash-up
    There is a proliferation trend of AWE market studies of generally low domain expertise. This one is fairly typical, excepting the odd prominence of Bruce Banks Sails, a seemingly non-AWE conventional sailmaker. Perhaps there is something new here-


    https://www.openpr.com/news/816510/Global-Airborne-Wind-Energy-Equipment-Market-Report-2017-Innovate-e-Kite-EnerKite.html
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23211 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Re: Curious Mass-equivalences of Wings in Flow
    To make Carrol's Higgs analogy as clear as possible; he is invoking a towed wing in air, and the air itself is the Higgs Field. The robotic sailing vehicle is a particle that excites the Higgs Field by it sail, to acquire mass. The analog Higgs Boson is the wind-in-the-sail. We have no problem seeing the kite topology implicit in this analogy. Earth corresponds to the tow vehicle for a sail or kite wing, and we can interpret the wind field as the static POV and Earth as moving, under Galilean Relativity. From the static-Earth POV, wind can be seen as a quasi-aether flow.

    While aether is specifically discredited as a static medium for 19th century light propagation physics, it lives on in wonderful mythological and misc scientific discourse, and is worthy of its own Forum topic in relation to theoretic AWE, since aether's primary ancient physical meaning was "upper wind" (Wikipedia). We now know the solar system is filled with rarified gas/plasma, including solar wind for solar kites, and there is no such thing as a true classical vacuum, nor any definite kite boundary between our atmosphere and space.






     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23212 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory
    Here's the Wikipedia Aether line-up. Note the many rich intuitive correspondences with AWES theory, which will be discussed in follow-on postings-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23213 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Re: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory

    Setting the links:  

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23214 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Fort Felker's AWEC2017 presentation video
    Lots of new details but no big revelations-

    http://www.awec2017.com/presentations/fort-felker
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23215 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Re: Quasi-Aether in AWES Theory
    Sorry, but my full-featured Yahoo mailer has bogged down my dinky CPU with ads and features, so I am resorting to basic mail mode and my links are not hot meanwhile.


    --------------------------------------------
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23216 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Re: Fort Felker's AWEC2017 presentation video

    My first viewing notes:

    1.  Still Fort does not recognize the several conferences before 2010.  Why is that?

    There were others before that. Even he big one in 2009 in California, USA, was not the first.


    2. Go after knowing a full spectrum of load cases for one's AWES.


    3. One-year continuous autonomous operations:  BABY-STEP GOAL


    4.Fatigue optimization will come in time, not during prototyping and learning ...


    5. Recognize and respect human fatigue also. 


    6. He does not believe small scale can have significant impact on "global warming" (he favored that phrase over "climate change".


    7. He'd have us say "kite plant" to our buyers of MW systems.


    8. Business Challenges at MW scale ==============

    High cost of product development
    Typical low margins in energy business
    High Cost of initial low=rate production
    Achieving Bankability
    Environmental Impact
    Expectation of warranties on performance and reliability
    Certification


    9. Makani:

    Next year: Hawaii  2018
    =======================
    10. We heard a bit more about crashes and crashing.

    11, Stay testing small ...

    ===========================.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23217 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Kite Plant Operating for One Continuous Year

    Kite Plant Operating for One Continuous Year

    Preliminary Draft of Rules:

    1. Autonomous landings and launches during the year. The kite plant might need to land and launch many times during the year.


    2. Produces average of 1 MW of energy for 1000 hours in the base year.


    3.  ?

    4.  ?



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23218 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: How Might Small AWES Significantly Impact World Energy Supply

    How Might Small AWES Significantly Impact World Energy Supply

    =================================================

    Fort does not want to work on less than 1 MW kite plants. He believes small AWES cannot have a significant impact on world energy supply, if I heard him correctly.  In any case, this topic thread welcomes arguments for how small AWES might significantly impact world energy supply.

    =================================================

    To prime the discussion, I'd put forward some points:

    1. Multiply the units as needed.

    2. The educational value of small AWES may be the decisive matter for having AWES adopted in the large.

    3. Have nearly everyone go outside and fly AWES  instead of burning units of energy on indoor appliances.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23219 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2017
    Subject: Re: Tidal Stream Generators
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23220 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: Re: Kite Plant Operating for One Continuous Year
    There is hidden economic bias in this test, in that GoogleX can prevail by brute spending, but still not count for much. A different sort of test is suggested by the Wright Bros. The major milestone for AWES architectures that ultimately prevail is the moment of proof-of-concept, and the key endurance milestone is survival-to-payback, which varies greatly between architectures. There is no magic one-year criteria; its a dumbed-down analysis.

    kPower's two-week all-modes looping foil session, only stopped due to schedule constraints, still seems to be the endurance record in AWE, but at ~25W prototype scale. It could have gone on for the four years since, had kPower been able to afford to buy kFarm when it went for sale (200k USD, pocket change for Google). What truly counts is potential, and little is lost by not doing a feat that reasonably could be done, as long as the lesson is learned. Sooner or later, R&D funding to loop a ship-kite as an AWES will be applied, and MW output is expected.

    Even if the M600 were heroically operated for a year, its expected net-power-out is dismally far from MW level. SkySails did in fact operate its ship-kite AWES at sea several years, and no disputes the MW scale boost to propulsion. "Kite Plant" does seem like a good term-of-art, suggesting AWE more than "kitefarm", the previous coinage.

    A diligent fly-off process remains best-practice to sort out winners and losers in aerospace, but don't expect GoogleX to willingly compete in that format, when its dominance is in capital and mindshare. Makani narratives as a whole seem aimed at somehow dumping the venture at a good price to any credulous new investor, as Google has done with other X turkeys. A diversified AWES testing program and sound milestone criteria are not expected.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23221 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: Re: How Might Small AWES Significantly Impact World Energy Supply
    Once again, dubious logic, that an economic kite-plant unit must be MW scale. Solar PV is based on solar cells with at most a few watts output each, aggregated into panels then arrays. Solar Thermal mirrors and collectors are not much higher in unit-power.

    Fort neglects to note that, in principle, small kites in vast networked arrays can aggregate into GW scale plants, just as solar units do.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23222 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: Fort's "Valley of Despair"
    An interesting commentary of Fort's at AWEC2017 regards the notorious "valley of despair" effect in technology development. Without saying so too bluntly, he was obviously referring to turmoil within Makani experienced first-hand. We have had previous indications, like an ex-employee anonymously reporting internal "angst" on an employment website. The despair is related to technical choice, in that high-complexity AWE is predictably high-risk AWE. We can imagine the soul-searching that may have resulted if M600's maiden flight crashed, ten years in. Makani has been so troubled that hardly anyone has lasted the whole ten years, except Andrea the photographer, whose cameras at least are robust.

    The funny thing is that Open-AWE is much less subject to technical despair, given its faith in KIS. Yes, there is some chronic pain to limited budgets, but in the long run cheaper systems result compared to over-funded "gold-plated" ventures, where folks jump out windows when everything crashes down. In countless DIY AWES experiments, joy is the general experience, since most experiments advance knowledge and get one out into nature. The occasional setback is more comedic slapstick than sad. Hope instantly returns for tomorrow's test. The faint shadow on DIY AWE happiness is the potential for death or physical injury, like skiing, say. Its still simply a great joy.

    Despair is healthy emotion when it leads to changing course from a doomed path to an open path. Its always an emotional distraction when bad outcomes happen. Surely Fort and team are consoled considerably by good salary and benefits, but such consolation also keeps them on the high-complexity "path of infinite pain", rather than radically change course. The lowly Wright Bros were never so happy as when they solved problem after problem, with no despair-factor (even as Langley and Maxim despaired). That's the "right stuff".
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23223 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: TUDelft video
    From: dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23224 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: Some critique of conventional wind and a nod for AWE
    Subject phrase composed by JoeF

    Link provided by:
    From: dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23225 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: Nice Skysails Presentation

     Nice Skysails Presentation

    From: dave santos
    Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:38 AM
    Subject: Nice Skysails Presentation

    They are using a quiver now, as predicted by kPower as optimal-

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 23226 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/15/2017
    Subject: New TUDelft student concept

    Subject: New TUDelft student concept

    From: dave santos
    Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:43 AM
    Subject: New TUDelft student concept

    Note John McGinnis entering via comment.