Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES2233to2282 Page 25 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2233 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2234 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2235 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2236 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2237 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2238 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2239 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2240 From: Doug Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Model?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2241 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2242 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Model?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2243 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Will Dutch Capture Most?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2244 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Air Force Dreaming

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2245 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2246 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Model?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2247 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2248 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2249 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2250 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: AWE 2010 Conference Highlights (Stanford)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2251 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: AWE Conference report

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2252 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2253 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Hazards to birds

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2254 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2255 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Video without cut,noise (dynamic use),no noise (static use)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2256 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Video without cut

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2257 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: I NEED YOUR VOTE - GE Ecomagination

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2258 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Russia AWECS new wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2259 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2260 From: harryc11 Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Hazards to birds

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2261 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2262 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2263 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Replacing Paul MacCready- Ilan Kroo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2264 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2265 From: ufechner77 Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2266 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Replacing Paul MacCready- Ilan Kroo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2267 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Inside AWEC2010 & the AWE Consortium

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2268 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2269 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Low Density EPP Foam for Crashable AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2270 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass? [comparing with sailing]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2271 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: Low Density EPP Foam for Crashable AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2272 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: I NEED YOUR VOTE - GE Ecomagination

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2273 From: Doug Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2274 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Re: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2275 From: Muzhichkov Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Re: Russia AWECS new wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2276 From: Ugo Bardi Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: AWE: Good news from Italy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2277 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2278 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Raised VAWT farm element scheme

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2279 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Few days left...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2280 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: GE Posts top 100

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2281 From: Doug Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2282 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2233 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Updated front page

To celebrate the graduation of the AWE community,

some updating has been done on the front page:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/

Let me know of your video preference; send URL to

Editor@
UpperWindPower.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2234 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
Joe,
 
Well, you asked for feedback- The old page was superior.
 
My personal sense is that the front page has tragically lost all sense of being the massive central portal of AWE. It will be confused with all the endless sparse AWE pages that do forced minimalism out of desperate scarcity. Who would guess this was the original busy "cradle" site, where the AWE web community began.
 
Everybody i have ever told (many) that this address is the place to instantly see the breath of the exploding field will surely wonder what was meant. The top link is to a skeletal abstract outline, not the old vast content as itself. The second link is to the annoying password section i have only once ever bothered with & most vistors never will. Secrecy is the worst thing we can copy from the AWE stealth actors, its killing them. Only the buried third link finally leads the anything impressive, the exploding community, but in a newly-diluted layout.
 
Darin's art is nice, but scarcely expresses the breadth of the field like the old page's varied graphics. A lot of good people will even think we have no aerospace or utility-scale game & navigate to the military-industrialist AWE clutches. The loud blue background competes poorly with the rich dark look from the pro art depts of the rich VCs.
We could even loose the Geomagination prize if this link address was to be the overwhelming "trump card" to beat 1000-to-one odds. Surely tired judges will likely fail to navigate down a tree where before the grand was laid out on one page.
 
Wish i was wrong, Joe, but please restore (& even augment) the original evolving super-portal page layout or migrate the "New Coke" to a separate domain.
 
daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2235 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
Changed back with some changes. But you once noted that you may not be seeing video. I have on the front page 24 YouTube image starts.
 
Thanks, DaveS.


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2236 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
AWE Sector is no longer passworded.
 
Thanks, Dave.
Glossary should serve without passkeying, etc.


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2237 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page

All files are open.

http://EnergyKiteSystems.net

If you are represented in some way that needs attention, please get with me; thanks.

Further face change. There are 24 videos started on the front page.

thanks for feedback given

JoeF.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2238 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
I'm sorry Joe, but since you asked, I find the home page intolerable. Long home
pages are bad enough "per se", but filling one with lots of video is definately
not on. Anybody without a fast connection and a working Flash-Plugin (and they
often don't work) is left out. I have both and I still gave up after waiting
fives minutes for the page to finish loading.

Put the videos on subpages and/or link them from static thumbnails which do not
have to load the player.

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2239 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
Special thanks to Uwe of TU Delft, DaveS of KiteLab Group, and Theo of kitesailing.
  • Each of your items has effected changes. Thanks.
    • More feedback is encouraged.
    • The front page now loads quickly.
    • Videos are on separate file. 
    • Full AWE Sector is reached now without passkeys.
  •  Organizing the rapid growth of entries is continuing for the front page.
Lift to you and yours,
JoeF

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2240 From: Doug Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Model?
Dear Dave:
Clearly you are a "global cooling denier". :)
As you are well aware, it would be a classic mistake to confuse weather and the occasional statistical excursion outside the norm, whether upward or downward, on any given day, for a long term trend.

Los Angeles has had the 3 coolest summers in my memory, and this summer qualified as a record, if not THE record for a cool summer in California.
Additionally, nobody has surfed all summer cuz the water has been 58 degrees - normal for winter, not summer.
Last year we were skiing later than most resorts were open even in Colorado or Maine, looking down on the palm trees, cacti, and tarantulas of Disneyland (good name for a band).
Dude: look up "decadal oscillation" also google the terms "sea ice" and "insulator".
People can "cook" the books with regard to some temp data, but they cannot create or fake their missing promised "severe hurricanes" that never occurred, nor can they fake water warm enough to swim in. Look at factors that they cannot fake, judge the results by their own standards (severe hurricanes) and you will see the truth.
Oh did I say a bad word? truth? Oh sorry.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2241 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Updated front page
Thank you Joe, much better IMHO!  Now maybe we want just a single picture (perhaps in addtion to the patent) as an eye-catcher. This could be changed now and again. It shouldn't be too big. Or maybe a few smaller thumbnails side by side. But it's not important, the main thing is to find the content quickly and you have done a super job assembling so much info! Thanks also for the search link for me. I had no idea there was so much around!

Cheers, Theo

Joe Faust schrieb:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2242 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Model?
Doug schrieb:
Swiss and German newspapers yesterday featured Los Angeles as having
45°C, the highest temperature ever recorded there...

Here where I live in Switzerland the glaciers are retreating rapidly. We
need to get wind and solar competitive with coal ASAP in order to avoid
possible catastrophic runaway effects of global warming.

Cheers, Theo Shcmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2243 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Will Dutch Capture Most?
 


Click photo for recent news article.

Michael Kanellos : September 28, 2010

Will the Netherlands Rule High-Altitude Wind?

The country has three key ingredients: advanced technology, a cooperative government and really bad weather.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2244 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Air Force Dreaming
http://www.opednews.com/articles/From-the-Air-Force-The-Fi-by-willem-
malten-100928-329.html
The Air Force wants to train for wars where there are no windmills.

Bob
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2245 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2246 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Model?
Oh well maybe you're right Theo.
I just like to play devil's advocate sometimes to keep it all interesting. :)
Doug

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2247 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen
Nice job - I saw the meter move!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2248 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen
Inviting more and all.
 
Congratulations, Pierre, your input shows right now at the 50th video.
 
I am sure thre are missing videos. Send in URLs for the collection. Thanks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2249 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen
Very Cool Pierre. On par with the videos shown at the Conference this week. Can you provide an explanation of what we're seeing?
- Dimitri

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2250 From: Doug Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: AWE 2010 Conference Highlights (Stanford)
Hi guys:
I promised I would report back on what transpired at the AWE 2010 Conference at Stanford.

Well the first thing that hit me upon arrival in Palo Alto was "Hey wasn't that the building where I was offered 20 million for Superturbine(R) a few years ago and turned it down? What was I thinking?"

It was an exhausting drive, first through Los Angeles in a truck with no AC on the record heat day +113 degrees after a cool cool summer, then across the vast agricultural heart of California complete with all the fertilizer smells and boring scenery. I was already exhausted from an installation near Death Valley over the weekend that ran into Sunday evening...

Next, driving to the conference, I heard 2 interesting facts on the radio:
1) The old small houses I was driving by were expensive - Palo Alto rivaled Newport Beach for the most expensive homes in California.
2) They are putting up signs along the train tracks with a hotline phone number, because people keep jumping in front of trains to kill themselves.

I noted that in Southern California we do not seem to have this problem. Maybe the sunny weather? Less homework? More movie stars?

Anyway, the conference:
Well there were a new teams from around the world flying kites about the size of windsurfer kites, some larger, some smaller, pulling reels of cable and running generators off the reel.
They shows graphs of times when power was being produced, and times when power was being used. Sound familiar?

Then you had the McCarney - Oh OK Makani for those who don't live in Boston, and Joby: they're still flying the kite-planes with dual-use propeller/wind turbines running motor/generators. Makani is still a Monoplane and Joby is a Biplane - they are from Northern California so they are bi? - C'mon now, don't jump in front of a train, OK? kidding! Nice people and I like them. They showed some videos where they take off and land, and I think maybe where they made some power.

We saw some interesting footage from the wingtip cameras. Some compelling photos from aloft.

They are starting to realize that high relative wind speeds, combined with reasonably high tip speed ratios for their propellers, means tip speeds at a significant Mach number, meaning they get NOISY.

They had Ira Ehrenpreis the venture guy speaking. I had a brief conversation with him as he was leaving, reminding him that I've been trying to tell him about AWE as a subset of Superturbine(R) for years.
I related a conversation I had had with Bill Joy and John Doerr (Kleiner Perkins) warning them that the FloDesign turbine they have funded had questionable merit. Ira told me he is on the board of advisors for this turbine called Flodesign that combines many classic flaws (my opinion). He told me basically that the quality of the ideas hardly matters at all - it is all about paperwork and filling out the right forms. A point I already knew and a pet peeve. I guess it depends - some groups really DO care about the quality of the actual ideas more than paperwork, which is standardized and easy to generate.

The dude from NREL - Fort Felker - gave a refreshing dose of reality discussing issues like icing, high wind events, O&M costs, shutdown decisions and procedures, indemnification (insurance) against failure, non-production, and insurance for ancillary damage to property etc., and the fat that windfarms are built using only certified turbines, and that certification is a rigorous process - issues windfarm developers and operators must face daily to first build wind farms then to provide reliable power at low cost month-in and month-out, year after year, hopefully at a total cost of a few pennies per KwH. It was refreshing to hear someone speak with experience in wind energy, which is MOSTLY about what can go wrong, with the actual challenge of power production being routine and simple by comparison.

SkyWindPower - I still see nothing wrong with their device except it is not flying - not sure why, as it seems like a solid idea. Len told me it's because they need to do it at a higher altitude. OK well any altitude is better than no altitude. c'mon guys I'm rooting for you! I think they are just too busy, and it goes to show: if the agencies that claim to be so serious about exploring advanced clean energy concepts were SERIOUS, they'd contact companies like SkyWindPower (as just one example) and offer to help. Imagine that. Hire some enthusiastic kids and start buying parts from Hobby King like the rest of them.

I passed out DVD's and T-Shirts while forgetting to bring business cards.

Christina Archer & academic friends reminded us of the vast resource available, and characterized it further for the audience.
As a group we verified that there is a lot of wind as you go higher.

Then I drove home - Los Angeles 405 miles! Whew I had to pass up 6 In-and-Out Burgers because if I had stopped they take 20 minutes to deliver "fast food" - "Somebody ordered what? a hamburger? (Not a fish sandwich?) Whoa - better start cooking one of those! A hamburger you say... Tell the customer to have a seat - we are not prepared for a surprise HAMBURGER order - it will take some time to prepare this unusual request!"
Then I woke up...
Home sweet home.
OK what's the next emergency?!?!?!?!?
Oh my gosh - the energy crisis!
All in all, if you missed it, use your imagination - whatever you probably think was presented was what was presented - no big surprises.

Press coverage & demo flight:

This year I don't think it got the level of press coverage it did last year, when we had a demo flying that made the front page of a few newspapers, and SkyWindPower was on the cover of the SF Chronicle.

It seems to me that because this field is so new and exciting, yet unproven, that such a conference might be more exciting and meaningful if it had at least one working demo up and flying. Then the press has something to photograph and record.

An idea that I've seen discussed is a flyoff that would bring actual working systems together to fly in a windy area.

All in all it was good to see everybody.
Everything seemed (to me) to be at about the same stage - kind of a "getting ready to get ready" - (what a saying), and I don't think if you missed it, your effort will suffer irretrievably. (pun)

Joe Faust has done a great job of providing all the links and info including everyone who was there, and you can see what's being done by following Joe.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2251 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: AWE Conference report
I attended the AWE conference in Stanford this week. As an AWE system developer, it was often clear to me that many of the speakers, sessions and panel discussions in particular, were targeting their messages at someone other than me. However, the room was filled with enough non-developers and industry-outsiders with only a rudimentary understanding of AWE, that overall the information and discussions seemed to benefit everyone.

Lots of videos of flying vehicles and some producing enough electricity that even Doug Selsam was impressed. ;-)

Demographically, it was perhaps 98% men, with the majority of people under 30, an almost equal-sized group 30-50 and a handful of white hairs like Dave Lange, Mario, Professor Park and Gaylord holding their own. The group was also nearly evenly split between Europeans and North Americans.

Perhaps most importantly, the discussions in the hallways and many opportunities for mixing it up allowed many of us developers to compare methods, issues, problems and solutions. Beer and ideas were pouring out late into the night.

As many of us discussed, the next twelve months will be very exciting and our next meeting (perhaps in Belgium) will undoubtedly have demonstrations of much more success.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2252 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report
Thanks, Dimitri & Doug, for the reports, it really helps all those who could not attend feel part of the scene.
 
Its clear that the AWE R & D field is now robust & will not be easily monopolized or harmed by the fortunes of any single player. Doug is right that the team-members of the capital-elite companies like Makani & Joby are nice folks. Its vanity, greed, stealth, & bossism at the exec level where it has been ugly.
 
Doug is also right about the "disruptive" value of demo-based activity at these events, but it was not planned for obvious reasons. A small developer like Pierre might humble the wealthy starts in front of the investors with a convincing COTS-based performance (AWEC rejected KiteLab's request that demos somehow be featured).
 
Its great that Fort Felker provided a much needed counter-balance to the AWE hype machines. Doug is once again right that engineering progress is based on facing the hard problems honestly.
 
Its very exciting that the next event might jump to Europe. Drachen Foundation & the World Kite Museum should also be considered as great future hosts.
 
Anybody else got an event report?
 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2253 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Hazards to birds
I finally found a nugget of useful information from the ravings at Ecomagination.  Birds and bats are not getting hit by windmill blades; they fly through the extreme low-pressure zone near the foils, and their capillaries explode.  Bats are more susceptible to this than birds.  Knowing this, we may be able to change designs easily for greater safety, perhaps by making a biplane, with the thin upper foil not lifting, just warning off critters.  Bats, especially might also be warned off 
by ultrasound, either by mimicking a warning signal, or be jamming their navigation.  For more, search on "barotrauma +bats"  

Best,
Bob Stuart


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2254 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Re: Provisional video on youtube of manual flygen
The paper on

http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/OptimizationOfAManualFlygen.pdf provides explains.The video schows some sequences:
1) with a propeller 13x10,low output (5 to 10 % Betz limit);
2) the multimeter is linked to the generator with an electrical cable which the length is 18 m,no loss for V but many losses in amperes (between 50 to 70 % of losses for an standart cable);the multimeter is used only for measures with the the losses due to the length of the electric cable (note:the cable slows down the kite);
3) wind speed is between 6 and 8 m/s,the used propeller has an exceptional output,30 to 80 % Betz limit according to wind speed;the noise is high with dynamic use,and low with static use (another video without cut will be provide on youtube);
4) wind speed is between 4 and 6 m/s. 

PierreB

 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2255 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Video without cut,noise (dynamic use),no noise (static use)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuor4cYQSg Propeller with very high output (30 to 80 % Betz limit).Wind speed is 6 to 8 m/s.With a good machine the variations of power could be deduced according to the noise.This video is without cut.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/OptimizationOfAManualFlygen.pdf Study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DPVH2wFRsU Precedent video with some different sequences:1) flight 2) measures 3) noise 4) flight

PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2256 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Video without cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuor4cYQSg Propeller with very high output (30 to 80 % Betz limit).Wind speed is 6 to 8 m/s.With a good machine the variations of power could be deduced according to the noise.This video is without cut.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/OrthoKiteBunch/OptimizationOfAManualFlygen.pdf Study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DPVH2wFRsU Precedent video with some different sequences:1) flight 2) measures 3) noise 4) flight

PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2257 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: I NEED YOUR VOTE - GE Ecomagination

Working link to vote for Bob's paravane mooring direction:

http://tinyurl.com/BobVotePage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2258 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Russia AWECS new wings
Russia
AWEIA rep
 
New AWE site with big plans!
Russian Federation    as posted in AWEIA Nations.
 
 
 

Alexander Muzhichkov

This folder of files is reserved for the contents, images, announcements, etc.
of Alexander Muzhichkov

 
Questions?
Encourage Alexander Muzhichkov !!!
 
Top flying to you and all Russia's AWECS projects !
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2259 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
Oh yeah Dmitri and I were hangin' out and he is a good guy. No foreign accent or anything! Not that foreign accents are bad per se, unless the person with the strong accent is making absolutely no sense, in which case it is beyond annoying. But I digress...

OK now I'm gonna play devil's advocate (again) here for a minute and point out an aspect of the current state of this art, as reflected in the recent conference:
A half-full glass may also be described as half-empty, and this analogy is often used to illustrate how the same situation can look completely different (encouraging or discouraging) depending on our attitude. Is the glass "half-full" or "half-empty"? Or is it dry?
I just have to point out a couple of things:

1) In an art where NO federal dollars are going to come and find us innovators, and where we can make more progress on a shoestring in less time than it will take to abandon all progress while generating the mountain of paperwork required to even be CONSIDERED (most likely turned down) for funding, its become apparent that an innovator's time is best spent innovating rather then trying to convince people on paper. This is where I've noticed consistently "the only thing slowing me down are the "people who are going to help"", and that includes people putting on conferences, in the sense that all progress must be abandoned for "just one more week" which is how much time it takes to prepare for, attend, travel etc.

That was one reason I did not bring a demo this year - stop development to show the same system again - besides the fact that, as Dave S. points out, maybe demos are not wanted when the billionaire-funded teams can't seem to outperform the garage-builders. (Wright Bros. vs Langley?)
You will note that this year there was no attempt or request for demos of any kind and no place to fly one. Coincidence?

Just as religious cults prefer buildings without windows for full indoctrination without that pesky light-of-day ruining the ambience (shattering the lies), the all-talk format decrys the presence of reality in its midst.

2)We COULD say that what we're seeing is very promising - systems are seen flying and producing occasional power. However, here's what's missing:
There is NOTHING shown that makes reliable power, NOTHING that can run continuously for even a few hours, let alone day after day. NO SYSTEM demonstrated can produce a truly useful amount of power, FOR ANY PURPOSE, No SYSTEM can produce steady-state power, NO system has any customer that would want one, or get any use out of one, NO system has even BEGUN to address issues like foul weather, icing, hail, longevity, overspeed protection - and why would they? These systems are only flown for brief periods during fair weather, mitigating the need to address any of these realities.
All in all, I'd have to say, we're still at the stage of demonstrating failure more than success.

"This is how OUR TEAM can produce almost NO usable power and cannot keep our system in the air more than a few minutes even using a human babysitter (pilot)"

"Oh really , well THIS is how WE make no usable power, and here is our system that nobody could, would, or should buy!"

"Well WE'VE demonstrated that we can USE more power than we make!"

"Aha, well you think THAT's bad, look at how OUR HYPOTHETICAL billion-dollar system makes and a no power: All we've gotta do is build a special ship, attach tons of generators, and an industrial-scale electrolysis system, and tow it around with a kite, producing hydrogen, compress and bottle that hydrogen, and deliver it to market, and when the economics don't work out, take heart - we'll extract rare minerals with the seawater - so you see we DO have everything worked out after all!"

"Oh, well OUR system DOES stay in the air as long as there is calm weather (?), but we don't WANT to show a video, since our system actually has one little problem - it makes almost no power!"

Imagine a sales conference where people showed videos of how they ALMOST closed a deal.

How about a crane convention where people talked about their projects to lift heavy objects, showing videos of how they were briefly able to lift a light object for a few seconds before the crane tipped over or collapsed?

How about a wind energy convention where people brought videos showing how they got a rotor to make 1/2 of a revolution, then had to be stopped, reversed, then restarted, and there was trouble keeping the thing deployed correctly?

In short, at this stage, it's kind of a case of:
"This is how we failed"
"and THIS is how WE failed"
"Well WE'RE failing like thus-and-such"
"Oh you think THAT's great? We have a whole DIFFERENT way to fail - check THIS out!"
"Oh well forget YOU guys, WE have the MOST EXPENSIVE way to fail!"
"Well WE have the most ELEGANT way to fail"!
"Well WE'RE far more sophisticated - WE'RE doing computer simulations of failing systems!"

That is what is, to me, EXCRUCIATING. Sitting in a chair as though bound and gagged - no way to make any progress at all, while listening to others making no progress, relating the stories of how they can't really get anything to work.

"THIS is how many people WE have on OUR team that can't make any reliable power!"

"Oh really? Well HERE'S how much money WE'RE spending to get essentially no results! And boy do we have a hefty burn rate and some neat logos!"

"Ah your team cannot COMPARE to the amount of money WE'RE wasting to get nothing done - we hired a whole schoolroom of students who are VERY ENTHUSIASTIC (about their paychecks that is)."

And another thing I noticed:
STEALTH PLAYERS:
A few people there who have NO logos, NO "corporate presence", just a few extra bucks and a willingness to try, and THESE people are just as far along as the names you all know, with their reeling winches etc.

Here's what I gotta say:
Take a regular wind turbine for generating electricity. Say 5 feet in diameter. These were produced by the millions in the 1930's. There were also selected MEGAWATT machines produced even back then. It was decades of experience with these millions of small turbines, combined with the added track record of the few large ones that had been built, that allowed today's wind energy industry to go forward with (some limited) confidence.

Even then, the largest U.S. windfarm-scale turbine manufacturer, Kenetech, finally went bankrupt from their turbines failing in strong winds.

The realities of the requirement for steady-state operation, and an economical structure that was simple enough to run unattanded for months or years was seen early on. The requirement that the machines be simple, meaning reliable, and able to automatically protect themselves from overspeed was taken into account. The past 3000 years of wind turbine design was recognized and taken into account - no drag-based machines were part of the picture, no oscillating cycles, no attempts to extract power 24/7/365 using wear-prone winches etc., just the simple reality of how to make reliable, steady-state power from wind, using the fewest moving parts possible, which is well-known in the right circles. If all wear parts are hardened steel, and your system has been perfected for years, you MIGHT stand a chance to not be destroyed the first time it gets truly windy.

Anyway, that is what I want to say. It's hard to listen to takes of failure masquerading as tales of success - from the glass standpoing, if a full glass is reliable power 24/7/365, even the regular wind energy industry is in a 1/3 full position: A capacity factor of 30% in a windfarm location.

The AWE effort - and note I did not call it an "industry" - that would be premature - (the "industry", as it stands, is holding conferences, not generating power) this area of endeavor, takes great note of this limited capacity factor of 30%, touting the promise of filling this glass to perhaps 70%, since at higher altitudes, winds are more consistent.

However, the REALITY is that ALL losing wind energy systems talk about the vastness of the resource, since it is only by focusing on the RESOURCE rather than their SYSTEM that they have anything truly promising to discuss, since the systems themselves are as yet UNABLE to take advantage of the vastness of this resource.

Like ALL losing "revolutionary" turbine designs, the fact that the status-quo does a FAR BETTER job of approaching a reasonable capacity factor (glass 30% full) than the new "revolutionary, improved" design is not the fun thing to talk about - it's more fun to talk as though some sort of airborne system actually WORKED, continually repeating the fact that there is a lot of wind up there.

I've found that turbines that work simply state how much power they make at what average wind speed. They don't need to discuss the vastness of the resource, which is already well-known.

So, if this is a new and growing field of endeavor - an area of active research, a promising direction of exploration (not yet an "industry"), then what I'd like to see is the first SUCCESS story. A pile of failure stories is perhaps the best we can do so far, and obviously we don;t want to stop trying becuase of no initial success, but overall at this time I don't see any success in the sense of any useful turbine to run anyone's house or even power a water well, radio repeater - nothing. There is no successful product yet, nothing useful.

Which brings to mind the concept of Magenn. It seems that this ubiquitous image of the rotating balloon has become almost synonymous with AWE. Magenn was listed as a sponsor of the conference, with images of their rotating balloon and logo prominently displayed.

Yet I do not remember them presenting anything. It seems to me that they've been around long enough that if their machines were useful for anything, someone would be using one by now, one would be flying somewhere. If Magenn were making any kind of useful levels of power you can be SURE they would be promoting videos of the power meters.
Instead we have the cycle of "press-release/silence", where promising press releases are followed up by NO verification of true usefulness or performance. So Magenn, you've been on the map for years now, we're heard the claims, we've seen how much money you've spent - now please: WHAT is the performance of your system? What's the matter? Cat got yer tongue?

I'd have to identify Magenn as a MATURE AWE technology - looks about the same as it did years ago. magenn YOU started this conversation, claiming a superior product. years have passed. Now please, for the rest of the class, please tell us the answers that ANY wind turbine customer wants to know:
How much does your system cost?
How much power does it make at what wind speed?
How does it handle extreme wind events?

This illustrates how illusionary / delusionary this field is:
NOBODY is held to ANY standard of success whatsoever.
ANYBODY can make ANY claims NO MATTER HOW ABSURD and are NEVER CHALLENEGED and no matter HOW MANY YEARS go by, are NEVER asked for ANY results AT ALL.

My gosh I gotta get back to work - sheesh!
:)
Doug S.
http://www.TheSolutionToTheEnergyCrisis.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2260 From: harryc11 Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Hazards to birds
I recall an experiment several years ago where a kite shaped like a bird-of-prey flew over a poultry farm. The siloutte of the bird-of-prey (eagle, hawk, falcon)caused mass panic amongst the chickens and ducks.

Perhaps an AWE kite that presented the profile of a large bird-of-prey to other birds, would keep the other birds away.


Harry


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2261 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
Doug,
 
Its the wonderful problems to solve that make AWE such a great field. You are right about most players being doomed, but the resource is real. Tapping Upper Wind is the best monkey & banana test ever.
 
Do not equate kite flying with baby-sitting. Its a high art done out of passion & the kite is a teacher. Anyone who learns to love it can make a lot of power. Icing*, windstorms, grid-specs, & aviation regs are all part of the fun.
Never give up, its worth the chase...
 
daveS
 
* soft kites shed ice like a dog shakes


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2262 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
Dave:
Give up? Heck no not me. Of course the resource is real.
That's the problem - I keep saying it - the best anyone can do no matter HOW much money they are given is to repeat this fact, well-known for a century.

I believe my designs can easily deliver a decent amount of reliable power for at least times when winds are not extreme, and the simple versions using a blimp will still be there the next day without overnight babysitting. That's just one example. I think I showed ONE simple way to fly a string of propellers and get the power at ground level using no computers, winches, or advanced futuristic controls and schemes.
So I am not pessimistic that it is possible.
I'm not pessimistic - I'm optimistic which is why I bother to patent and build systems that work.
The funding agencies only care about paperwork and no results.
The players have no background in wind energy, and do not recognize the patterns in AWE that mirror the endless string of failed turbines in the existing world of wind energy.
Historically-noted signs of past future (failed) wind energy companies:
1) Any company with "flo" or "vortex" in their name, in any way
2) any company with a logo that has arrows showing the wind blowing
3) any company that touts the vastness of the resource
4) any company that advertises the advantage of fewer bird strikes
5) any company citing a drastically low cut-in speed
6) any company that adds solidity to their rotors
7) any company that uses a duct, diffuser, or concentrator
8) most any company with a vertical-axis turbine
9) any company claiming to "beat the Betz coefficient"
10) any company claiming their turbine is too expensive for developed countries but instead targets undeveloped countries
11) most any system relying on combining some other breakthrough such as energy storage, placement near freeways, etc.
12) any turbine with a reciprocating cycle
13) any turbine using drag rather than lift
the list goes on and on...

As I have pointed out, if anyone were really serious about a machine that worked TODAY they would simply buy an off-the-shelf kite and hang an off-the-shelf turbine from it, as at least one low-cost, workable, viable starting point.

L8R
Doug

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2263 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Replacing Paul MacCready- Ilan Kroo
 
When Paul died we lost the probable global research leader for AWE. Its been hard to imagine who would have the respect, wide experience, & large imagination to take his place, but there are a few folks around worth considering. Ilan Kroo is one, a bit young maybe, but a Joe Faust "top pick" too, for his amazing work in high-performance hang-gliding. Kroo's summation remarks at the recent NASA Green Aviation Summit contained very wise advice for all would-be AWE developers; looking for the video...
 
 
Dr. Ilan Kroo
Professor, Aeronautics and Astronautics,
Stanford University
Dr. Ilan Kroo is a Professor of Aeronautics and Astronautics at Stanford University. He received his B.S. degree in Physics from Stanford in 1978, then continued studies at Stanford in Aeronautics, leading to a Ph.D. degree in 1983. He worked in the Advanced Aerodynamic Concepts Branch at NASA's Ames Research Center for four years before returning to Stanford as a member of the Aero/Astro faculty.  Prof. Kroo's research in aerodynamics and multidisciplinary design optimization includes the study of innovative airplane concepts. He has participated in the design of UAV's, flying pterosaur replicas, Americas' Cup sailboats, and high-speed research aircraft.  In addition to his research and teaching interests, Prof. Kroo is founder and chief scientist of a small software company and is an advanced cross-country hang glider pilot. 
Professor Kroo has authored several publications and reports to include, "Flight Control with Distributed Effectors," S. Bieniawski, I. Kroo, and D. Wolpert, AIAA Paper 2005-6074, Presented at the 2005 AIAA Guidance, Navigation, and Control Conference, San Francisco, CA, August 15-18, 2005; Framework for Aircraft Conceptual Design and Environmental Performance Studies, N. Antoine and I. Kroo, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, AIAA Journal, Vol. 43, No. 10, October 2005; and Nonplanar Wing Concepts for Increased Aircraft Efficiency, I. Kroo, VKI lecture series on Innovative Configurations and Advanced Concepts for Future Civil Aircraft, June 6-10, 2005.
In his spare time, Ilan enjoys hiking, skiing, windsurfing, hang gliding, and songwriting with Sharon and Elliot, Laurel, and Annie.
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2264 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?

 System Success Stories
Send SSS to Editor@UpperWindpower.com

Editor
@
UpperWindpower.com

Incremental steps are welcome.

 

Thanks, Doug!

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2265 From: ufechner77 Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass?
Hello Doug,

I don't understand, why you are so pessimistic.

The nuclear fusion researchers claim, that they MIGHT produce power in 40 years, if they get another
7,2 BILLION euros (about 10 billion US dollar) for their research.

I think, the situation of high altitude wind power is much more positive.

One goal of my PhD studies is, to get a kite generator to work for at least 24 hours without any manual
control. I want to achieve that within 3,5 years.

Many small problems still have to be solved, to be able to build a HAWP generator, that is competitive to
the current wind turbines. But I think, that that is the way to go.

All the technical ingredients, that are needed to build such a generator are available. The only thing, that is
needed, is to put all the things together in the right way (and we don't know yet exactly, what the best
way will be).

Apart from implementing an automated control system, I am trying to optimize the winch efficiency in
the moment. And each day I learn more and get a better understanding on what needs to be done, and
my colleges improve the kite and the bridle and simulate new designs ...

Yes, there are a lot of things to be done, and we should share more of our results (so that not every group
has to make the same mistakes again), and we need more time and money for research and development.

I attended a workshop today, how to apply for research money from the 7th framework program from the
European union. I think, a joint effort of the European research groups together with some companies could
speed up the development. But to organize this will need some time.

I am confident, that we will be successful before I retire in 2025.

Best regards:

Uwe Fechner
TU Delft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2266 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Replacing Paul MacCready- Ilan Kroo
 Ilan Kroo    
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2267 From: Doug Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Re: Inside AWEC2010 & the AWE Consortium
I'll be passing out T-shirts showing patent drawings and patent claims for how to ACTUALLY DO AWE NOW.

I had stopped going to conferences. One thing I had noticed was EVERY SINGLE conference, of any type(!) I went to had a guy named Ira Ehrenpreis as the main speaker.
He's with "Technology Partners"
Noting that the conferences themselves were what was preventing progress by taking all my time, I wondered how this guy Ira Ehrenpreis gets anything done at all! All conferences, all the time!

It seems to me Ira has had the same response to Superturbine(R) (not just airborne versions) as most: "We don't normally invest in early-stage companies - get in touch with us when you are a little further along - good luck!"
THAT is what I should have printed on the T-shirts.

Anyway, suffice it to say, this situation of having the same speaker at EVERY conference got to be a running inside joke after awhile, from my persoective - (a joke on me, actually).

I was like thinking (and this was years ago) "How many more thousands of dollars, and otherwise productive days of BUILDING and TESTING, maybe SELLING turbines, will I give up, so I can sit in a chair and listen to people TALK TALK TALK, when I already KNOW what I'm doing and, usually, THEY DON'T.

Like last year's AWE conference - At a couple of points, I thought I had walked into "One flew over the Cukoo's nest" - "Just spit it out for God's sake" was my thought... "Is this almost over yet?"

Who had a turbine that flew for 2 days at the conference last year?
How much did it cost? $500 bucks? Built in my sleep, only cuz Popular Science had previously called and wanted to photograph something "Shocking" a few months earlier for their centerfold of June 2008.

I could have a home being FULLY powered by AWE for less than $50,000 right now. That's cheaper than a Bergey 10 kW unit.
(Oh sorry - for the rest of the group "Bergey" is the name of the leading manufacturer of 10 kW wind turbines - those ones that ACTUALLY WORK - you know the real kind, not internet vaporware & renderings? You may have seen one once, while driving through a windy area, but probably didn't notice or recognize it).
Anyway, yeah so I look on the agenda and who is giving the opening talk? Why it's Ira Ehrenpreis! What a surprise - go to a conference, listen to Ira Ehrenpreis.

See the dynamic - I get to listen to them, they get to ignore me - I know what I'm doing and I have the answer - they don't.
So why am I sitting listening to them talk about trying for the next few years to do what I can do right now? I must be nuts to keep going to these things.

OK I'll get to talk to Ira Ehrenpreis again, and I'll show him what we've got, and at the end of the conference, I'll say "NO MORE CONFERENCES!"
(hopefully not - hopefully it will be great, and lead to getting something economical and reliable UP AND RUNNING!)
Because I already KNOW what Ira Ehrenpreis will probably say:
"We don't normally invest in early-stage companies - get in touch with us when you are a little further along - good luck!"
That's what they all say.

Even at the Techonomy Conference, 3 days of hanging with the top CEO's of the largest corporations, Bill Gates, Eric Schmidt (CEO Google), Jeff Bezos (CEO Amazon), someone said to me:
"I know who you've gotta talk to - Ira Ehrenpreis!"
I slammed myself in the forehead and fell backwards to the ground.
It took them several minutes and smelling salts to revive me...
;)
I hope this freaking conference is not a TOTAL SNOOZEFEST. I get bored REALLY EASILY.

I CAN'T STAND sitting around listening to people lament "how they can ever get AWE to work?", or lower the cost of clean energy, or any of this anymore. Hello, I have the answer - is anyone interested?
Oh yeah - the answer! Did someone say they were looking for an ANSWER? Or is it more amusing to endlessly LOOK but never quite FIND an answer?

No I sit in silence listening to dweeb after dweeb project how they might someday get something working if only someone will give them $100,000,000 - hey I have something that works NOW!

And please GET A CLUE: if your idea WORKS, it will work at a small scale and you can do it for POCKET CHANGE! How do you think REAL windmills were developed? Started small and worked their way up! The first electric windmills produced by the millions in the 1930's were just 5 or 6 feet in diameter - a suitable size that could be developed on a shoestring by someone with their feet squarely planted in reality.

After listening to even the president declare that they'll find and develop all the great clean energy inventions that he KNOWS exist, all across America, while I seldom get even a phone call from any agency, and when I do, it is to give me another 30-page assignment, or ask me for money, I'm beyond jaded. I mean does the government ever tell the truth about anything anymore?

ARPA-E is as bad as the rest - nothing new there - they wasted weeks of my time to send back a form letter apologizing that they had too many submissions and could hardly even get to them all or read them all. They said it was "a learning experience" I say it was "another lie".

You know where I think the national effort to find new clean energy solutions is? Under the same rock as the last 3 years of severe hurricanes that never happened - it is all lies. Not that people CAN'T do it, just that they WON'T do it.

Don't worry - I WILL do it.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.TheSolutionToTheEnergyCrisis.com

PS I hope Ira Ehrenpreis has a compelling talk this time, worth driving for 2 days, and taking away another week of what could have been progress.
(As I always say. "I GOTTA stop going to these conferences!")
See you there Ira Ehrenpreis!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2268 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?

Just what might be the limits for AWECS (single or farm) based on the rotating-ribbon wing of the VAWT orientation with two tow anchors?

Start page toward this is available:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Kites/RibbonBowArchRotators/index.html

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2269 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Low Density EPP Foam for Crashable AWECS
There is one current kind of ultra-lightweight foam composite wing or turbine-blade construction that can take severe abuse- Low-density Expanded PolyPropelene (EPP) with internal tubular carbon fiber spars. EPP can be cut with a hot-wire from large blocks into good airfoils with minimal wastage. Such construction is very cheap compared to hand-laid monocoque composite shells. Mass production would be easy. Should a carbon spar break, its a COTS product, easily replaced. This sort of construction is ideal for small AWECS & might scale to about 100kw rated "crashable" wings, provided overall flying mass is kept very low.
 
Notes-
 
In the late eighties Brooks & i had early access to Ethafoam (expanded polyethylene) to make robust small UAVs years before EPP became available. Joel Sholtz turned us onto EPP, which is even better. EPP is revolutionizing model aviation.
 
A basic KiteLab AWE method is to separate lift & control from power harvest. A single-line soft kite acts as a pilot-lifter to safely suspend a hot airfoil that is allowed to "go nuts" in self-oscillation to drive a load. Normally the system lands gently in lulls with the hot-wing self-parked.  In turbulent conditions the hot wing could hit the ground at high speed (not yet observed). EPP hot wings take this sort of punishment without damage.
 
Conventional wind turbine blades are not optimized for AWE flying weight or crashing. EPP-based turbines would be far better.
 
coolIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2270 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Conference report: Dry Glass? [comparing with sailing]
Doug schrieb:
...
Thank you for your report and comments, very refreshing!

This is such a new thing I'm not surprised that projects are not further. Also
that well-funded projects are no better or even worse than small private
projects. People tend to spend any money they get on things they like to do
(e.g. go to conferences, write reports, etc!) and put things off they don't like
to do. Here I am writing this message when I should be doing all sorts of other
things, like cleaning up my office.

Kite-*sailing* I believe is much more of a success than producing electricity,
but it also took quite a few years to get going (of course Pocock had already
demonstrated it long before). There are several reasons:

1) Cost is related to amount of material used. The once world speed-sailing
record held by Jacob's Ladder (Tornado catamaran powered by a stack of Flexifoil
dynamic kite) was achieved with relatively few materials, readily available
kites and lines. A standard Tornado sail and rig weighs much more and hence
costs more.

2) Sailing is heavily about sport and racing. A few hours or even minutes of
operation suffices. Human control no problem.

3) Sailing also has to do with commercial shipping. However shipowners will use
anything which cuts their cost, e.g. a kite system which can only be used part
of the time and reduces fuel costs just a bit as long as it is more than the
costs of the kite system.

4) Many of the costs of conventional sailing have to do with cantilevering or
otherwise managing large forces. Kites do away with much of this.


With power generation weight and cantilevers or other structures also cost, but
less in relation. Most of the materials are relatively cheap, steel and concrete
(or traditionally also stone and wood). There is no point in operating only for
a few minutes or hours, so automatic control is a must. Very high reliabilty is
also a must, as crashes can not really be tolerated. No sport application I can
think of. Therefore the task is more difficult and kite power generation is
still mostly in the inventing stage.

It takes both, people who work and people who talk, and both must think. Both
solar and wind turbine systems have grown into large industries with many
problems solved except the transportation and storage of electricity. There are
still conferences and there are still individuals who fill some niche more
effciently than the big operators. I would get one of Doug's units or something
similar immediately if it wern't for neighbours and planning permission. Where I
live solar has more potentional and more acceptance than wind in spite of the
relatively high costs of photovoltaics. I already produce more than I need with
PV but can't store it, I am forced to sell it. I keep thinking about flywheels,
but never get very far.

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2271 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: Low Density EPP Foam for Crashable AWECS
dave santos schrieb:
Yes. Several neighbours of mine fly model electric airplanes. The conventional
ones are painstakingly assembled in many hours and rather fragile. One of the
neighbours bought a model plane cheaply with very small components yet a
reasonable wing span made from such foam, outperforms the others and is much
more robust.
I still have one of the kits for turning a Flexifoil kite into a large model
airplane. I havn't flown it yet, but this too looks reasonably robust.

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2272 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: I NEED YOUR VOTE - GE Ecomagination
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2273 From: Doug Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?
Very interesting Joe! Very very interesting.
I might suggest my patented rotating cylindrical mesh of helium-inflated Darrieus blades for more efficient energy extraction in this general configuration. Or use a cylindrical mesh of non-helium-filled Darrieus blades, and support them some other way such as maybe by pure aerodynamics (no helium).
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2274 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Re: Ribbon-bow-arch-rotating AWECS ?

Some furtherings are evident in the file.
And this morning:

Bi-held rotating Magnus-effect snakes, ribbons, Darrieus complexes, Selsam cylindricals, Faust shaped-ribbed playsails ...

sided by mining generators.  Morphed rotating ribbon kites held at designed altitudes by lifter kites, kytoons, aerostat complexes, ...

Restarts after lull.  System may be made to follow wind directions.    

FairIp.      Depending on wing choice, some protected IP may be involved.

JoeF

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2275 From: Muzhichkov Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Re: Russia AWECS new wings
Thank you, Joe! I'll try to be a good addition on the way to AWECS victory!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2276 From: Ugo Bardi Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: AWE: Good news from Italy

http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/7014

-- 
****************************************
Prof. Ugo Bardi
Dipartimento di Chimica - Università di Firenze and
ASPO - Association for the Study of Peak Oil
Polo Scientifico di Sesto Fiorentino - 50010 Sesto F. (Fi) - Italy
Tel +39 0554573118 - ugo.bardi@unifi.it ******************************************
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2277 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model
KiteLab proposes that AWECSs will evolve into vast highly cross-linked string & fabric array structures accepting wind from any quarter & able to maintain flight in calm by "oscillation towing" in close back-&-forth or circular motions. Airspace & land footprint will be maximized & the applications will be endless. Many small experiments have proved the essentials. Stay tuned for a detailed report.
 
The image below of collagen skin structure is a close biological analog of such structure, with high dynamic similarity. Note the division of "lifting planes" & tensile capture-
 
coolIP
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2278 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Raised VAWT farm element scheme

Raised VAWT farm element scheme

EnergyKiteSystems.net would be glad to host your AWECS drawings, articles, photos.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2279 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/4/2010
Subject: Few days left...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2280 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: GE Posts top 100
Congratulations to Doug Selsam for making the first cut at the
Ecomagination Challenge. This is not necessarily good company,
though. I also spotted one of the perpetual motion machines in the
list, so I quit reading very early. Oh well, it was fun for a few
moments of hope.

Bob Stuart
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2281 From: Doug Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model
Can we bronze this message and place it on the mantle so we can keep reading it for the next 100 years?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 2282 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/5/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Lattice Arrays- Biomimetic Model

Done, Doug:    The brozing is installed: http://www.energykitesystems.net/CoopIP/FlyingLatticeArraysBiomimeticModel.html

All in AWE Community are invited to add CoolIP and FairIP articles. 

Also, our group's Files and Links sections are open for anyone to use to develop assists for all of us. Some folders are open for posts. One may form new folders.

And, all are invited to advance paragraphs for extant terms or for missing terms in the AWE Communicy Glossary:
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