Does the following fit this thread?  Click through image for full instruction:

Doug,   Perhaps you missed the old posts explaining that a high-speed cable loop with a given "static" pull carries far more energy over time than a slow speed loop of the same pull. The colorful example is that "sewing thread" moving at 200mph rates near a horsepower. Yes, its tricky to handle line like this, you need shock-absorbing & tensioning mechanisms, but the power is there for the new helicopter to overcome static pull from below.   Not all designs suffer the Cubic Scaling Penalty equally. String & membrane are quasi one & two dimensional objects & postpone the penalty. Adding a mere 1/100 of an inch in thickness to a 1/100 of an inch thick membrane doubles its weight. KiteShip succeeded in making ~5000sq ft kites rated at about a megawatt with the same thin fabric a small kite is made from. A stiff tube, on the other hand, is fully 3D & in scaling-up, to maintain stiffness ratio, soon becomes massive. This is why i could only find massive long driveshafts, requiring close-spaced bushings, in the engineering universe (ship drive-shafts & dam spillway actuators).   Small developers like us should band together to out-compete the early VC bets, especially for a much-needed major comparative study to vett ideas, & go with the identified winners. If USWindLabs shines in that pool it would then easily out-compete any well-funded over-hyped vanity-engineering start.   I do have a sense of humor, anything not tragic is hilarious,   dave

An amazing thing about this design is the fine solution to launching & landing a high-speed glider from a turret.   As now applied to AWE, its a nice little bit of cool IP, Joe.   ====================================   Note: "CoolIP" is a catch-all for shared AWE knowledge (fairIP/coopIP) that combines high open-source freedom with "honor-system" consideration for the creators, as that knowledge proves commercially valuable to big business. It is a work-around to the "broken" global patent system, for small inventors. The AWE Consortium has been challenged in writing to accept cool/fair/coop AWE IP, but has not yet responded. It will be very hard for AWE companies to comepletely avoid the many good ideas gathered under the CoolIP banner. AWEIA is proposed to arbitrate eventual fairness disputes related to the new IP vehicle.

Pierre,   Bravo for a nice simple experiment with good support analysis. It fills a gap in the spectrum of demos between KileLab's "plodding low-tech" flygen turbine hung under a lifter & the small fast complex rigid-wing flygens by Joby & Makani.   Consider flying your parafoil flygen thru a ring held up by a pilot-kite's line, if crashing is a problem. Its possible to attach a pilot-kite on a long leader to a parafoil wing-tip, with swivels & rotary-contacts added where required, & let the flygen loop passively. You can also stake-apart the two lines & set up fairly stable dutch-roll oscillations.   Hope your presentation at the "world congress" went well,   dave

• Rotokite  (non-crosswinding)
• http://www.sequoia.it/media/rotokite-presentation.pdf
• http://www.sequoia.it/en/brevetti.htm
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ilG78cBLg
• 
  
• Basic reel-in-out with and without crosswinding for power generation is in public domain. Which aircraft is used to attain AWECS is a competitive situation presently. Use of rotary aircraft (powerable, unpowerable, strictly unpowered, etc.) to achieve the generation is an exciting field.    Distinguish flygens form groundgen on this matter.   And distinguish whether the system allows crosswinding or not during the power-gain reel-out opeation sector.
  
• Related would be the many patents on kites. Most any kite could become part of a reel-in-out scheme.  Effective bladed or sailed rotary kites with or without lifter kites or kytoons play to bring a wide selection of exploration.

The general AWECS classification challenge remains open for description.

http://carolinaunmanned.com/about-us

 

Dissertation in 1997:

GPS Pseudolites ,
Theory, Design, and Applications
by H. Stewart Cobb

===========================

Advanced AWECS farm control?

 

 

 

This term seems to refer to a miniature, local GPS system to determine kite position.

"Any vehicle which requires centimeter-accurate navigation within a sphere of 20 km radius or less can now achieve it using CDGPS navigation assisted by pseudolites."

Dave S:
With all due respect, at least one venture outfit, Google Ventures, disagrees. Here is the e-mail I received back from them the other day after I talked to the Google people on recommendation of Eric Schmidt CEO of Google, after he saw my package.

Ironically, I was not even really trying to sell them on my airborne stuff. Superturbine(R) has the potential to cut the cost of terrestrially-based wind energy in half anyway - the airborne aspect is just the high-risk/high-reward aspect of Superturbine(R), not the whole package.

It just goes to show that there is really no way to penetrate the wall of non-comprehension other than to create it so that nobody can deny it. Luckily it cone be done on a shoestring anyway - it doesn't require that much money! Text of Google Ventures e-mail below - read and take heed:

Doug,

Thanks for reaching out. As you may have heard Google.org is no longer making venture capital investments. Instead that function has been transitioned to Google Ventures, which has a slightly different mandate. I was able to review the material you send and I must say that your ideas are certainly unique and prolific. I was quite impressed with the Popular Science article and the prototype you created. Unfortunately, however, the risk profile does not fit well with the Google Ventures portfolio. While Google Ventures will occasionally take opportunistic positions in late stage cleantech endeavors such as Silver Spring Networks, the combination of early stage and high capital intensity pushes the Superturbine out of our comfort zone.

As you may have discovered many venture capital firms have adopted a similar position when it comes to airborne wind technologies. In my experience the space is better suited to investment from high net worth individuals, who can afford a longer time horizon. Given your relationship with Messeurs Gates and Schmidt it seems you are already in contact with the right type of people. We do wish you the best of luck in your efforts to help solve our country's energy problem.

Kind regards,
Ken


Kenneth Davies
Program Manager, Energy & Infrastructure
Cleantech Advisor, Google Ventures
Google, Inc.

Doug,   I don't see any particular disagreement between the letter you got & the need for informed investment. Ken is right about those high net-worth investors & they need good info too.   You might do even better with the Bills & Erics pitching a diversified AWE R & D investment, for a lowered "risk profile". Betting on one idea at this stage is very risky,   dave santos   AWE Investment Advisor

I'd place it all in "talking to a wall" territory.
It seems that anything worth investing in seems "too good to be true", or else they don't really have time to look at what you put in front of them. This is a typical example. Exactly as you say, Superturbine(R) a package of related technologies that includes a world IP package that has already cost nearly a half million dollars.

It shows the capability to possibly cut the cost of utility-scale wind energy in half. One could ignore the airborne aspect and it's a great revolution already. No matter - nobody cares. The visionaries are blind. Nobody cares about it till they see their neighbor having a zero electric bill, or see someone making millions of dollars. Then suddenly after it;s all worked out, they'll offer to come in and play some "indispensible" role.

Pierre: Thanks for your vote.
you just said it all: The "Greatest Experts, the Scientific Minds"...
or are they?
If they are so great, so expert, so scintific, and let's say High Altitude Wind POwer or even Airborne Wind Energy takes a significant position, then they will turn out to have been ignorant and blind.
You know what I wonder?
For 3 years now the "climate experts" have been using warnings of severe hurricane seasons as examples of their accuracy in predicting the weather, at least at a crude scale.
Only thing is: almost no hurricanes for year.
Even Al Gore used Katrina as an example of "the new normal" cause by us burning things.
Well I can tell you the water in the Pacific has been too cold to surf all summer, and that is the multi-decadal oscillation at work.
We're heading into a La Nina. It will be a cold winter with little snow here.
Here's my question:
If it gets colder again for a few decades, will a concensus of scientists resign as useless and inaccurate, admitting that for them, "science" is a supermarket tabloid exercise in going along to get along, not fact-based?
He he he he
I'll be at the AWE Conference at Stanford if anyone else will be there.
I'll have free T-shirts with my patent claims for buoyant blades, and pix from my patents of flying wind turbines, buoyant and gyrocopter style, printed on them. And cool logos for Selsam, USWINDLABS and Superturbine(R).
Come and get a free T-shirt.
:)
Doug Selsam
714-992-5594

Doug,

It is not a specialized Congress in AWECS or HAWE but a multi-energy forum.Some of theese experts approve the idea of harnessing HAWE but HAWE has not yet a valid passport in this Congress.I hope to have done that it is possible for a good photo the next Congress will can place on HAWE and AWECS passport.And I do not tell that it is a right and correct thing that official projections towards 2050 for wind energy consider only conventional wind turbines but it is a simple constatation.Note:for the official projection the expert is not the experts who approve (unofficially) the "idea" of harnessing HAWE.

Pierre
   

Carousel method closeness ...approved this day 100 years ago on Sept. 20, 1910:

US Pat. 970616    Click image for full instruction.  Then just think in reverse.

 

Welcome to

 Uwe Ahrens.

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2008006413  for full applicaton documents including drawings.

Wind operated power generator

NTS Energie- und Transportsysteme GmbH  
 NTS Energy & Transports  

Berlin.

 Click image for full instruction:

Thomas A. Edison:more than 1000 patents or inventions!

PierreB

Go for it. The wording is crucial to be successful in a claim of this sort, pour over all of their press releases and brochures, to find claims that are worthy of litigation. You need better grounds and writen proof.


---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Dave:
Let me tell you from experience: you are getting all worked up over nothing. Conferences are nothing but "the all-talk format" on steroids. In this case it is groups of people who sit around and do nothingh individually, forming groups that ist around together and do nothing, all having a conference where all the groups can get together and all sit together in a big room and REALLY do nothing, but more talk-talk-talk.
Nothing at the conference will make a good idea not work, or a bad idea work. Nothing will advance this field but working models for sale that are proven and can be relied upon to provide economical power.
If that;s not what you have, then it needs work to get it to that point.
I only VERY RELUCTANTLY attend these conferences anymore, since, as I've pointed out, all conferences are really just one more chance to sit doing nothing whil a (nice enough) guy named Ira Ehrenpreis speaks, everyone hopes he wioll give them money, he doesn't, and when you go home you missed out on a week of progress, while spending a thousand bucks on the conference lodging and transportation.
If anything actually happened there that affected you, I'd be real surprised.
I've been promoting advanced wind energy technology for years now and manufacture and sell working wind turbines. Even then, your work has just begun. Getting frustrated at the conferece level - at the "all-talk" stage is not worth getting your blood pressure elevated.
If anything significant happens at this shindig, I will be happy to at least informally represent this group and report back on what transpired that may affest us all.
Most likely I will return with disappointing yet hopefully humorous anecdotes 4 U!
Doug Selsam
http://www.TheSolutionToTheEnergyCrisis.com

Doug,   Be very clear on this- i don't want to attend these events to attract money, but to meet a few fine people, learn something, & share as mcuh as i can. Its knowledge starvation i'm complaining about, not capital starvation, which also exists.   If AWEC manages at least to share knowledge in proper conference "proceedings" & also share participation lists, i'll be content. Sorry you had to give those folks your money, they don't deserve it. It would be unbearable to give over any of KiteLab's modest research budget to these over-valued insiders,   dave

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

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Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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wooo, another company pretending the answer is not clearly delineated in U.S. Patent 6616402.
Why did I spend so much time carefully spelling out how to do AWE with over 100 drawings?
As I like to say, "How many "experts" does it take to completely ignore major breakthroughs like Superturbine(R)?" answer: "All of them!"
It's a case of infinite density - not good for AWE!
Maybe I can wake them up.
Doug Selsam
http://www.TheSolutionToTheEnergyCrisis.com

Doug,   Please stop turning other folks threads into repetitive SuperTurbine promotion. This thread is about the political leadership of our industry. Admit at least that Ampyx shows a more open mind about non-SuperTurbine solutions.   If we get leaders that can create a sound comparative research framework, then your SuperTurbine claims can be fairly tested alongside all contenders. No one should trust any claim to superiority (including KiteLab's) until that due diligence is done.   Treat the AWE field fairly & you might get elected our president,   daveS

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@... It would be illuminating if all of the information sources for the "militarization" claims being made about ARPA-E and a number of companies involved in designing AWECs were cited so that it could become apparent where so much inaccurate information originated.

Hi Folks,

After observing all the action over at the site Doug found, I
couldn't resist entering an entry somewhat inspired by this site, but
not competing because it gets located underwater, where many things
are simplified. I first thought of such arrangements when I was
contemplating living on a houseboat, but it scales up well. I'll not
have the energy to pursue it myself, but just get totally irritated
when people try to bolt standard windmills to the seabed. A mooring
is far cheaper, and lets the turbine follow a reversing flow, surface
for service, or dive to avoid shipping.

Kite-based collectors in flowing water:
http://challenge.ecomagination.com/ct/ct_a_view_idea.bix?c=12EB3117-
EA0C-41EB-B657-5A60BD78BD2A&idea_id={04348485-3BBD-4315-94AD-
F7DC0B898A24}

Best,
Bob Stuart

"In 2009, Rogers was honored with EnergyBiz magazine's CEO of the
Year EnergyBiz KITE Award (Knowledge, Innovation, Technology,
Excellence). "



Perhaps the acronym is more on target than some know.

Clip from the past:

"Several attempts had been made on the part of the aircraft man-
ufacturers to get together, but patent litigation, personal jealousies,
and a lack of an appreciation of the true value of co-operation had
made the welding process a slow one.

Finally, however, in February, 1917, during the Aeroplane Show
in New York City, Harry Bowers Mingle, the president of the
Standard Aircraft Corporation, sent out letters inviting the various
aeroplane companies to send representatives to form a committee
to discuss the situation. His invitations were accepted. The com-
mittee met and the Aircraft Manufacturers' Association was formed
on February 13, 1917. Most of the important aircraft manufac-
turers joined. "

AWEIA Airborne Wind Energy Association international

KiteLab Group KG

Open folder in this groups Links section may receive your links on topic:

http://tinyurl.com/WarKiting

Preamble re: Basant Day :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0mjufSMjrk

 

 

I think this constant comparison of the present AWE space to aviation 100 years ago may be somewhat misplaced and a waste of energy.

Back then they all were basically imitating the structure of a bird, and all were pursuing versions of that same basic design, that was proven useful and proven to work. Additionally, there was a strong national defense component.

In this case there is no such basic design that all are pursuing together, there is nothing yet proven useful, and there are a multiplicity of mutually-exclusive basic approaches to the problem(s), from low altitude to high, helium vs. exclusively aerodynamic lift, rotating vs figure-8 etc, etc, etc.

To suggest that this effort would benefit from forced sharing of pooled IP is, I think, absurd, and you might note is constantly promoted by those who have not bothered to secure any IP or don't have any to secure in the first place - the handwavers and handwringers. They just know something is happening and they know they won't be the ones to make it work.
If someone walked right up to these people and showed them something that DID work, they'd be in denial anyway if it didn't resemble the recreational kites they were used to flying, so why even say to cooperate with the IP anyway? silly silly silly.

Yesterday I spent 12 hours at over 100 degrees in the sun putting up a Grid-Tie SuperTwin(TM)running through a WIndyBOY inverter, at our USWINDLABS test facility in Boron, CA, near Death Valley.

This machine will probably make more energy than all the AWE in histopry combined the first day the wind blows. And people keep using the term "industry" - an industry with no sales? No customers? No Manufacturers? No product? No output? Yet that is the blog-o-spere world we live in today - reality has lost its place - it's all fantasy all the time.

Today I get to drive all day to get up to Stanford for the big talker convention. This stuff drives me nuts as I COULD be getting something done... - but ya know, how could I miss such a "important" event!

Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

The early aviation patent pool sponsored by the US gov ended a lot IP uncertainty & helped make everybody's complex systems finally "defensible" (to extend the VC "defensible IP" concept). These pools are to speed things along faster than the patents can be proved over time by courts & markets. They lump together good & bad IP to clear the patent thicket. Its a shame Google doesn't create a pool, they have the moolah. Rogallo should be honored for how he released his patents to encourage developers.   USWindLabs, for example, might find it attractive to join a well capitalized patent-pool to secure the certainty of a profit v. fighting patent battles with pirates, getting beat by free ideas, or seeing the patents expire before they ever take hold in the mass-market. Anyone wanting to use a USWindLabs patented idea without paying royalties demanded would be freed to found a biz without constraint, instead of avoiding the idea. In the absence of an IP pool buy-out, anyone who thinks they have "secured IP" in AWE by spending on patents may find they wasted the money.   A new twist is coolIP on the honor-system. PR-sensitive AWE companies face an interesting challenge if they try & use a coolIP idea & get slammed in public as cheap thieves. Such a test is likely as we have done a pretty good job of blocking potentially killer patents with mass coolIP disclosure.   Regarding whether a single superturbine will in one day exceed all the power ever made by kites should account hauling ships around. The kite wins, even though comparing tower-based HAWT output with experimental AWE is as misleading as comparing a old weight-lifter to a baby. The SuperTurbine needs to beat the big stock HAWTs instead of infant upperwind tech.

Attachments :

Attachments :

varidelta.jpg

---

CMNA

---

Timeline note:  
" CMNA Power was formed as a Texas LLC in January 2008,
but development of its wind energy technology began in July 2007 "

OK Dave why don't you start by putting all your IP in a pool and we will see what's there to add to, once we see how well your machine is running over time.
Wait no I've got it: pool the ideas that work with the ones that don't work at all and come up with a machine that one person designed that all can take credit for! From each according to his ability and to each according to his need! Where have I heard that before?
I'm late to see Ira Ehrenpreis speak (again)...
Nice motel though

Doug,   OK, so you will never cash-out or license to any AWE patent pool & think the early aviation pool was a historic mistake.   Kitelab Illwaco's voluntary sharing is hardly the mandatory California-style communism you are accustomed to, so please don't gripe. At least the effects of climate change here are more tolerable. Its sad to see LA once again broke its heat record yesterday. The upside is the slap at simplistic denialism.   Regarding freely given IP, Rogallo, & whoever invented the wheel, neatly escaped your fate of constant railing against uncomprehending experts. We can agree that Popular Science is not where the experts are, since they clearly liked the SuperTurbine.   Remember, you are always welcome to visit KiteLab to inspect & fly prototypes. Bring your mysterious talked-about devices that tap Upper Wind, to compare with. Let us never confuse AWE foundational inquiry with the hawking of tower-based backyard HAWTs.   You may prefer the AWE Consortium Industry Model & after-all voted for them with your cash. This free forum, on the other hand, finds nice work-arounds to paying royalties to privileged but poorly-deserving (Californians) who can afford global mine-field patents,   daveS

Airborne Wind Energy Industry Industry Association (AWEIA) has now
made on behalf of the entire Airborne Wind Energy Industry an entry in
the GE Ecomagination challenge. The entry made by John Oyebanji AWEIA
President protem is tittled Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) / UpperWind
Power
Thanks for your vote in our mutual interests.
Best of lifts.
JohnO

Airborne Wind Energy Industry Industry Association (AWEIA) has now
made on behalf of the entire Airborne Wind Energy Industry an entry in
the GE Ecomagination challenge. The entry made by John Oyebanji AWEIA
President protem is tittled Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) / UpperWind
Power
Thanks for your vote in our mutual interests.
Best of lifts.
JohnO

Hi  Folks,

I voted

PierreB