Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 20283 to 20334 Page 299 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20283 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Beautiful Long Line AWES Image (Enerkite direct ground control)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20284 From: Rod Read Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20285 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20286 From: gordon_sp Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20287 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20288 From: Rod Read Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20289 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20290 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Powered Kiting by Polygonal Centroidal Cyclic Winching and Glidi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20291 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Fusee (horology)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20293 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: FORUM WRANGLINGS MUST NOT RESURFACE PLEASE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20294 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Minesto goes public and attracts more R&D capital

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20296 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Moderator reports

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Joseph Coleman

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20300 From: Rod Read Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20301 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Moderator reports

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20302 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20304 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20305 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20306 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Joseph Coleman

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20307 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Switching Arch Loading Directions :: Wing Size Matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20308 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20309 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Switching Arch Loading Directions :: Wing Size Matters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20310 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20311 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20312 From: gordon_sp Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20313 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20314 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20315 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wind e

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20316 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2016
Subject: Re: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20317 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2016
Subject: 2002 Balloon AtmoSat with KitePlane Guidance

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20318 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2016
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20319 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2016
Subject: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20320 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20321 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20322 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20323 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20324 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20325 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20326 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: L/D ratio of kite and corresponding wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20327 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20328 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20329 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20330 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20331 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: L/D ratio of kite and corresponding wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20332 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20333 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20334 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20283 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Beautiful Long Line AWES Image (Enerkite direct ground control)
This image well espresses easily tapping high wind by a standard power kite on long lines. Control is done quite effectively to thousands of feet high by skilled ground operators. Control Pod comm-link dependence aloft contends conceptually with this established baseline method of direct ground control, which is immune to RF jamming. This is a key Enerkite and KiteNRG's advantage over control pods.

wolken
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20284 From: Rod Read Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

I'm grateful, I can rely on the support of this AWE forum to tell me how to think.
I wish Leo all the best with developing this. He's a nice guy.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20285 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Leo is a mystery to us here in Austin. We don't get to meet him, as apparently he is not eager to review patent claims that kPower thinks prior art applies to, nor is he intent on field testing. We go with Rod's opinion he's a nice guy, but also intent on the patent ethos. It would be interesting to know who did Leo's generous Wikipedia AWE coverage. If it was Leo himself, Rod may need to revise his opinion.

Rod was once a critic of AWE patent efforts, but seems here to make exception for the AWE patent thicket growing as much by individual "nice guy" patent filers like Leo as by large players like Makani and Joby. Rod stops short of actually wanting to help Leo in experimentally exploring the claimed method, merely wishing him "all the best". kPower offers its help, valid claims or not.

Rod is only specifically asked to think clearly and consistently, but not not told how this is done. Diligently testing AWES transmissions other than the torque ladder, like Leo's and similar "high-speed motion" ideas, is only proposed as a pro "no brainer" comparative evaluation. "How to think" is best based on the results of as many such experiments as possible, rather than just being told how.


On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 11:19 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I'm grateful, I can rely on the support of this AWE forum to tell me how to think.
I wish Leo all the best with developing this. He's a nice guy.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20286 From: gordon_sp Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
I think that "fanbelting" is the same as "rope driving".  There is a lot of prior art with this concept.

Gordon
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20287 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Leo has been one of the most prominent advocates of belts in AWES drives, and kPower has probably used belts in its prototypes more than any other party. Just as Gordon suggests, belt drives have a long history as mature prior art.

While they are both flexible drives, ropes and belts offer specialized properties in practice. What belts specifically offer AWES is higher load velocity at higher power by wrapping with more friction around a tighter radius without bending damage, compared to rated load-equivalent ropes. Further, kPower wraps belts (and return bungees) on capstan spools in a spiral for a progressive mechanical advantage when kite pumped (fusee mechanism).

"Fanbelt" is of course an informal label for a broad variety of belt types. Toothed belts (aka "timing belts") are favored for high-power transmissions.


On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 7:50 AM, "gordon_sp@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I think that "fanbelting" is the same as "rope driving".  There is a lot of prior art with this concept.

Gordon


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20288 From: Rod Read Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

In a way rope driving the circular track of a bike crank... Chain driving... That's kinda fan belting.
It was all covered prior to the patent date.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20289 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Dave Culp has long explained that many patents are minimally applicable as protecting specific designs, rather than being real break-through invention. We know of many AWES fundamentally similar in function to Leo's patent here (like KiteMotor1), but none identical. 

In theory, design copyright and moral rights cover the same ground, but a patent is thought to offer greater enforcement. In practice, patents hardly ever matter, especially with kites (only a few rare actions, like the LEI kite patent war and Baseload Energy v SkyWindpower breakup).

Rod rightly sees a chain-drive as a ready workaround option to a claim based on a belt. Chain, however, is more mass and cost for equivalent power, but gives longer duty in compensation.


On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:33 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
In a way rope driving the circular track of a bike crank... Chain driving... That's kinda fan belting.
It was all covered prior to the patent date.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20290 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Powered Kiting by Polygonal Centroidal Cyclic Winching and Glidi
[[[Exploratory note:  dancing kites, twin kites, Goldstein fan-belting:  http://tinyurl.com/SummaryGoldsteinFanBelts  Notice the value of lock-outing when pulling to central point during polygonal flight.]]]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20291 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

However the generator would be in a peripherical zone in regard to the main central anchor, making some difficulties for wind changes.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Fusee (horology)
Fusee (horology)
and its uses in energy kite systems
===============================================
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusee_(horology)
===============================================
Topic may receive reports of uses. Analysis of purposes and effectiveness?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20293 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: FORUM WRANGLINGS MUST NOT RESURFACE PLEASE
Just when we are breathing some fresh air of relive, it is important to insist now on NO FORUM WRANGLINGS, please.
For the records, DaveS remains the de-facto CTO on the forum and his word will be taken as final on any matter he emphatically concludes.
Please comply in the overall interest of the global public.
 JohnO
President, AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
It was clear from his prior post that Doug was unaware of the public visibility of the M600 test program. This large dangerous aircraft program is being watched closely by the FAA, AOPA, EAA, and so on. NOTAM must be filed. He overlooks our own Makani reporter network. for example, my astronomer uncle lives a few minutes drive from the Parker Ranch site, and friends on Alameda Island watched adjacent develoments over years. Doug is confused to think Makani tower dependance applies to AWE generally. Engineering (or business) delay is in fact common, including any reasons Doug himself invokes. Rapid corrections of anyone's posts are consistent with the Forum RAD mission. Doug should form new topics when he writes at length off-topic. 



On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 12:50 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
You know, I'm more than a little tired of having every post of mine immediately "corrected".
I said maybe their plane crashed.  That's a maybe.  A hypothetical.  I think we can safely assume if daveS knew about a crash next to a major highway, we would have heard about it.  Alternatives could be that it crashed somewhere else, or they are afraid to fly it because they think it will crash, etc.

daveS says: "No M600 has yet been seen to crash next to the one major highway across the Hawaii Big Island.
Predicable engineering delay accounts for schedule delay without real mystery."

*** Doug Replies: you mean a "delay" like your "AWE-powered concert" or "powering a remote village in Alaska", or "power to the grid in Hawaii"?  Since he doesn't really know, does He really mean "accounts for", or should he have said "might account for", or "could account for"?  Is not "predicable delay" an oxymoron in the sense that if a delay was "predicable" it would not be a delay?

===========================================
 He goes on: "The erection of the large M600 launch tower will be the public signal a test is near."

***Doug Replies:  1) So much for AWE dispensing with the dreaded tower...
                               2) The above statement assumes the erection of the tower is publicly known...  They could have changed venues again, but this time they didn't tell everyone.

===========================================

daveS continues, just to make sure every detail of what I posted is "corrected"...
"Alphabetic stock listings are not a serious business factor"

*** Doug Replies: Yes it is.  It is well-known that list of stocks are normally alphabetical, and that even investors are only human and tend to get weary before reaching the bottom of the list.  It's well known to have a ticker near the top of the list is advantageous.  Have we found a new subject for which He is "an expert"?  It's the same idea as naming your plumbing company AAA Plumbing to get first placement in the phone book.  Even big corporations are subject to human nature.

===========================================

As evidence He claims "(Google grew better down-list)." 

Doug replies: but this could also prove my point since stagnating prices would be a catalyst for such a change.  The stated reason was to spin off money-losing blue-sky projects. The real reason emerges when you consider the letter "L" is just ahead of the letter "M":  If you were wondering why they chose a seemingly incongruous name like "alphabet", consider that it would fall out naturally if the directive was "choose a name ahead of Amazon", in which case a name that started with "AL" instead of "AM" would fit the bill - mystery solved!

===========================================

Next, I am baffled: He states that I could have been right about something: "but Doug is right to note that [Google/Makani] "generated the most hype" can also account for the wrongly skewed search pattern (not just direct cooked-search).

Doug replies:  Think about this though: Doesn't the fine print allow them to read all our e-mails?  They can watch everything you search for and everything you say.  The paranoid among us have probably already taken steps to avoid them constantly looking over our shoulders.  Personally I could care less.   If you can't convince people you have good ideas, why pretend they are trying to steal them?

===========================================

daveS continues: "The over-hype was hardly respectable either, nor are search engines that fall for their own self-serving hype."

Doug replies: How many years can lackluster results be blamed on the bureaucratic quicksand of others?

===========================================
daveS summarizes:  Makani hype has lately abated into suspenseful calm before a seemingly looming storm.

DougS replies:  The above is stated as a fact, though I surmise it is mere conjecture.  What evidence do any of us have of a looming Makani storm, versus they simply cannot make it happen?

===========================================
daveS concludes: "What an amazing tech story we are all players in."

DougS replies: We are?  We?  Because nobody has heard anything from Makani lately?  Well, OK, if you say so...  Is Magenn "a player"?  Were they ever?  Or were they a distraction?  Just sayin'...
===========================================




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20294 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Minesto goes public and attracts more R&D capital
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20296 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
A decade ago kPower found a solution to keeping the generator in the center of the field with a downwind PTO. The "main" kite tether is simply set at the extreme upwind border of the field unit, along an "anchor circle". As the wind changes its prevailing direction over hours or days, the human crew easily keeps relocating the upwind tether to the upwind anchor. This is a big question in AWE- how to turn a large system to stay crosswind. How to do it by existing practical means has been answered in great detail in past posts.

Many AWES designers only see an AWES as worthwhile if its like a self-driving car, as if self-driving cars already were the norm. This is why they can't anchor optimally at the upwind end to do PTO optimally from the center. kPower intends to work its FAA-required kitefarm PICs, VOs, and roustabouts very hard, as industrial riggers, but as a well-paid adventurous career. Ropes, belts, sails, and so on depend on real people still. Let automation be added in due time.

For years I have pondered why most AWE developers do not consider kite systems rotated actively by humans moving industrial cables from anchor to anchor (belay) in a normal way. Certain professions do this all the time, from construction riggers and crane operators to climbers and sailers; these folks move cables and anchor-points as a way of life. My personal bias is from having practiced all these disciplines over many years. Most old post windmills were turned by hand; only a few, later on were rigged to auto-rotate. Sailors and pilots have always adapt to wind conditions by hand-work. At kFarm, with Mothra, it was confirmed easy to shift anchors manually, the same timeless way of life.

Leo's "fanbelt groundgen" is just the sort of design that really needs simple rigger's and soft-kite solutions more than complex automation; simple solutions like anchoring from the upwind side of the field to keep the generator centered, and scalable soft-kite elements, like pinched crowns for bull-wheel drives. Let these sorts of methods be tested against all comers.




On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:37 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
However the generator would be in a peripherical zone in regard to the main central anchor, making some difficulties for wind changes.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Moderator reports
The AWES forum AirborneWindEnergy
has no de-facto final technical authority. 
Participating posters are ever encouraged to advance energy kite systems in any of its manifestations and applications while respecting the best science and engineering that one might muster. 

Please delete "tails" before posting. Copy and paste former quotes that might be in one's focus for a message. 

Please search carefully for topics already started; discern whether or not one's new message belongs in a former topic or not; if not, carefully craft a new topic title.  And may we all keep to a topic within a given topic. 

Best, 
Moderator  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Joseph Coleman

Joseph Coleman

"research engineer in the Mobile & Marine Robotics Research Centre at the University of Limerick, working in a multidisciplinary role for airborne and marine robotics research and airborne wind energy systems development. This role involves the design, development and rigorous field testing of robotic systems."

 See: MMRRC Redirect Page


Welcome.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20300 From: Rod Read Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Leo's designs can weathercock with a ground rail mounting circle. Heavy infrastructure.
or
Adjustable anchor rigging pulley circles can also be automated.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20301 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Moderator reports
JohnO's assertion about a de facto Forum CTO should not be taken too strongly. If I were asked who best embodies the role, I would say JoeF.

Can anyone suggest a mailer-fix to Yahoo lately including message tails automatically? Burdening the users with manually patching this seeming bug is no real fix. Conserving storage is no longer the issue, since compression deals with redundant strings efficiently and Moore's Law has made memory dirt cheap. The entire text content of the AWES Forum is far less than many a silly video online. 

I cut this tail, but without a real fix can no longer post as freely in response to back-and forth discussion, and I will curtail technical discussion proportionally, in favor of other work. Folks will forget, and the tail cutting will mostly burden those most vulnerable to relentless pesky digital media shortcomings (or delight those who find hidden messages surfacing).

A big thanks to Joe for his tremendous work moderating us.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20302 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Rod rightly suggests that circular infrastructure like rails/tracks/berms are the ultimate kitefarm civil-engineering solution. Major structure is even lowest cost given time, as accumulated saved labor cost finally exceeds extra capital cost. Who knows, an AWES installation might serve for centuries, just as many a Netherlands windmill.

On the other hand, a simple anchor anchor circle worked by roustabout labor using standard rigging gets us started big at minimal cost. Mothra at kFarm in 2013 was the hands-on validation that shifting a large kite across anchors is just as practical as expected by the rigger. 

Crosswind arches use the earth itself as a spreader spar with no extra mass aloft, which greatly facilitates operating serpentine rope or belt drives. Another great arch rotation method is to briefly depower the arch and fly it just from a center anchor. It can then be rotated at very low force and easily reanchored crosswind. Another belay method is to recycle force from easing the leading side to haul up the trailing side, without needing a center anchor. This pretty much summarizes past posts on arch rotation in the Open-AWE_IP-Cloud.

A good rule of thumb for our serpentine drives is that drive wheels in the must well exceed passive pulley drag, since each pulley imposes about 5% drag loss (rough estimate). Most of the loss is bending loss in the rope or belt, not the rolling friction of pulley bearings.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20304 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
What a strategy - go public before your system is even up and running.  Well, "strike while the iron is hot" as they say.  In the investment world there is a saying: "Buy on the rumor, sell on the fact", meaning a stock can be worth more in the hype phase than it turns out to be worth later, when the hype begins to wear thin and results begin to emerge.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20305 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Too bad Dr. Seuss isn't around anymore.  He'd probably say "I've got this!"...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20306 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Joseph Coleman
Did someone say "Limerick"?  There was once a researcher named Coleman...
Nah, kidding.  I was just going to say, if you follow the link, for anyone who is interested, there are a couple of great group photos from AWESCO.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20307 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Switching Arch Loading Directions :: Wing Size Matters
Consider a huge wing on an arch load line; have the attitude set for the wing to drive to the right of the ambient wind. Then alter the wing/bridling for an attitude change to achieve drive to the eft of the ambient wind.  It takes time T to effect the direction change for the wing. Let the wing W settle into crosswind pulling to the right (or left) at load L.      Now differently have an arch with 100 wings set to drive on an arch to the right (or left) with a net driving load L to match the former one large wing scene. Notice that the time to alter from right loading to left loading for the set of 100 wings in an arch format has the potential to be much shorter than T, say t.    t<<T  beckons some attention by arch AWES designers, IMO.   Handling and repair for 100 smaller wings might be more appealing than the same for one large wing.    Since L is assumed to be the same in the two above cases, the set of smaller wings has more time to drive with L; such would make the most of the available wind event as to PTO. There are potentially other advantages of having the set of smaller wings (mass production, swapping ease, shipping means, handling units, control to "off" and "on" time shortness, safety, repair time, scheduled size of L (60 wings instead of 100 for site X (etc.), modularity,  ...). 
  kPower, Inc. 
JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20308 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine
This surprise video link came in today from Windpower Engineering Magazine:
Featured Wind power videos

 

==============
==============
Congratulations, Doug Selsam, for being so featured in that video!   
Sweet for you!  

Now, let those among us who so wish:  consider the AWE ramifications of the content of the video.
The Yang tracked attitude-changing wings are with similarity cases in some AWES concepts. 
The multi-rotor AWES has historical roots and contemporary team projects.   The two-tri-blade affair could be lifted by kite systems and do the groundgen fanbelting as we know. 
   There are things in any wind turbine for kite-energy consideration. Finding the effective sweet formats for specific applications challenges and invites clever progressive explorations. 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20309 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Switching Arch Loading Directions :: Wing Size Matters
Good point- Turnrate on a crosswind track is proportional to kite size, and many small kites can turn at once far faster than any single larger kite of equivalent power.

Another fast-turn idea is a vertically oriented high-AR wing that shunts*. Shunting frequency is fast with a narrow chord wing and the wingtips don't have to wheel around ponderously.

----------

* shunting (reversing forward end) like a proa hull, not its rig, which normally does a sort of tacking-like flip-over.


On Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:37 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Consider a huge wing on an arch load line; have the attitude set for the wing to drive to the right of the ambient wind. Then alter the wing/bridling for an attitude change to achieve drive to the eft of the ambient wind.  It takes time T to effect the direction change for the wing. Let the wing W settle into crosswind pulling to the right (or left) at load L.      Now differently have an arch with 100 wings set to drive on an arch to the right (or left) with a net driving load L to match the former one large wing scene. Notice that the time to alter from right loading to left loading for the set of 100 wings in an arch format has the potential to be much shorter than T, say t.    t<<T  beckons some attention by arch AWES designers, IMO.   Handling and repair for 100 smaller wings might be more appealing than the same for one large wing.    Since L is assumed to be the same in the two above cases, the set of smaller wings has more time to drive with L; such would make the most of the available wind event as to PTO. There are potentially other advantages of having the set of smaller wings (mass production, swapping ease, shipping means, handling units, control to "off" and "on" time shortness, safety, repair time, scheduled size of L (60 wings instead of 100 for site X (etc.), modularity,  ...). 
  kPower, Inc. 
JoeF



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20310 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine
Congratulations to Doug for fresh buzz.

Its not surprizing that Dvorak is open to unusual concepts, since most experts of are sympathetic to such efforts. For a real Texas opinion on size for Dvorak, Yang's starting concept for an Indy 500 sized SuperTurbine could scale far larger and fly into superior high wind as a soft-kite version of Wayne's Vertical-Blind Affair AWES concept.

Windpower Engineering has covered actual AWE before, in a brief article-






On Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:43 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
This surprise video link came in today from Windpower Engineering Magazine:
Featured Wind power videos
 
==============
==============
Congratulations, Doug Selsam, for being so featured in that video!   
Sweet for you!  

Now, let those among us who so wish:  consider the AWE ramifications of the content of the video.
The Yang tracked attitude-changing wings are with similarity cases in some AWES concepts. 
The multi-rotor AWES has historical roots and contemporary team projects.   The two-tri-blade affair could be lifted by kite systems and do the groundgen fanbelting as we know. 
   There are things in any wind turbine for kite-energy consideration. Finding the effective sweet formats for specific applications challenges and invites clever progressive explorations. 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20311 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Correction Minestos's system has been "up and running" in the normal process of major extended field trials, for some years now. The pace of progress is faster than Doug implies.

Whether or not investors make money is a separate question, but at least the principle is sound and SAAB engineers have a long trackrecord of successful engineering. Minesto is no fly-by-night outfit, and there is a betting chance that investors will be lucky, like "buying Microsoft early"*. Minesto could even move into AWE and dominate, on the heels of paravane success.

----------

* This is a high-stakes game for qualified pro investors, not the place for grandma's life savings.


On Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:20 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
What a strategy - go public before your system is even up and running.  Well, "strike while the iron is hot" as they say.  In the investment world there is a saying: "Buy on the rumor, sell on the fact", meaning a stock can be worth more in the hype phase than it turns out to be worth later, when the hype begins to wear thin and results begin to emerge.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20312 From: gordon_sp Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
I would be interested to know the projected cost of power of the Minesto system.  Verdant Power with single fixed turbines in the East River, NYC  claims 7-8 cents/kWh.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20313 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Control
A kite is a tethered aircraft with inherent mixed pitch-roll-yaw-heave-surge-sway motions.  For stable flight, these motions are geometrically constrained by active or passive control features, typically including bridles, fabric darts, and multi-lines from spread anchor points (eg. guy tag-lines, or the ends of a kite bar). Common wind interactions destabilize kites lacking adequate stabilization. Any kite can in principle be fully stabilized in flight by running guy-lines every-which-way ("staked-out"). Pitch-roll-yaw-heave-surge-sway motions still occur by elastic (spring-mass dynamics), but usefully reduced to higher-frequency low-amplitude motions that interact less with the major harmonic modes of the kite. 

AWES also exploit harmonic modes to varying degrees in order to add WECS capability to basic flight capability.  A common Open-AWE stability principle for AWES WECS is passive dynamic stability of a harmonic oscillation (pumping). Tethers have their own strong harmonic dynamics mixing with the kite's basic aircraft flight dynamics. All these dynamics are aeroleastic modes.

Reliance on a specific mix of active or passive AWES kite control is a crucial design choice. Active control requires a human pilot , autopilot, or a mix of the two, but with many added human and machine factors of active sensing, decision, and actuation. There are many trade-offs to consider, for example, a human pilot or smart autopilot can perform sense-and-avoid action in the presence of other aircraft that a simple kite cannot. On the other hand, simple kites fly effectively without the cost and complications of active systems with many hidden (non-areoelastic) instability sources (like dead batteries). Simple kite methods are closest to the heuristic KIS engineering ethos.

Over the years, in numerous field experiments and on the AWES Forum, for the purposes of Open-AWE, a clear understanding has emerged that a large collection of kite units can be interconnected aloft (anastmosis) to act as one control object, with one control thread. Each kite unit suspended within an anastmosic lattice is passively fully stabilized. Far denser kite unit spacing is enabled with far lower control overhead. Autopiloting of the whole formation can be layered in due time on the passive stability foundation.

Outside of Open-AWE, the stealth-ventures all made a different bet on active AWES stabilization. Hardly any of these complex proprietary designs will fly passively if active controls fail. These ventures must race to prove they can meet essential reliability needs more effectively and economically than Open-AWE passive means. This looks like a losing race in the near- to mid-term venture timeline. Passive control based Open-AWE has a large window to take root, grow, and prevail, to maybe even cut its cradle strings in due time to become vast flocks of IFOs with perfected active controls.

---------- 





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20314 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
The most certain cost projection from novel energy prototype to mature technology is that cost falls drastically, by orders-of-magnitude. Another certainty is that cost will be strongly dependent on the quality of the marine current resource (velocity and constancy). Major sources of cost uncertainty abound, like energy taxes or incentives, including "the cost of doing nothing" in the face of global risk. One must define the problem very clearly by explicitly including or ignoring such factors.

Virtually all cost projections of novel energy tech are almost worthless, especially when made by the often desperate ventures developing them, with no third-party validation of claims. Most economic claims by engineering starts are by their marketing staff, rather than by serious economists. Only hindsight and general heuristic assumptions are reliable. We used to get lots of AWES energy cost projections around ~.02 USD kWhr, but these folks seem to have wised up. KiteLab has long proposed early AWE pricing will be very high, like fine wine. A paradox is that such a price structure might still be cheapest in a poor market with very high energy cost (like Solomon Islands).


On Friday, June 17, 2016 8:35 AM, "gordon_sp@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I would be interested to know the projected cost of power of the Minesto system.  Verdant Power with single fixed turbines in the East River, NYC  claims 7-8 cents/kWh.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20315 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wind e
Please use this identifier to cite or link to this item: 
Author:  Wilhelm, Stefan


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20316 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2016
Subject: Re: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wi
Stephan's AWE LCA (life cycle assessment) is a fine early effort to predict the GWP (global warming potential) of the technology. His understated conclusion is that AWE would have less than 1% (0.87) the GWP of Germany's current energy mix. This is not an economic study resulting in a LCOE (levelized cost of energy) result, so its not subject to high energy market price and regulatory uncertainties.

Baseline assumptions used current AWES design specifications by the Northern EU circle, so we can realistically hope for an even better outlook for emerging Open-AWE AWE concepts like IFOs, giant SS kites, airborne lattice arrays, and converting legacy power plants to kite hybrids.


On Friday, June 17, 2016 1:06 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Please use this identifier to cite or link to this item: 
Author:  Wilhelm, Stefan




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20317 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2016
Subject: 2002 Balloon AtmoSat with KitePlane Guidance
Superior theoretic capability than Loon, and a bit ahead of its time, this LTA HALE AtmoSat concept includes a guidance kiteplane lowed into wind shear like an airship skycar, but develops propulsive force with wings, so its an AWES-



page link-






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20318 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2016
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Stephan Wilhelm's TUHamburg MSc is rich in useful details, like this direct comparison of soft v. rigid wing mass by area-

"The kites used by SkySails Marine have a weight per square meter wing of around 0.85 kg/m², including the kite control unit...But (with rigid wings) increased weight comes with the rigid material. A modern glider has around 25 kg/m², including the cabin and instruments."

Taken together with [Hardham AWEC2011] asserting a rough 10-to-one soft-to-rigid power equivalence by area, soft wings offer about a three-to-one power advantage by equivalent mass.

This is should be taken as a mean value at a medium AWES scale. Rigid wings can do somewhat better at smaller unit scale, but are simply unable to scale up greatly. Soft wings increasingly dominate over rigid wings at larger scales by power-to-mass. This is what KiteLab Group and kPower have long insisted, and now third-party data increasingly supports this picture.

The observation from TUDelft of an R&D trend toward rigid wings in its North EU circle runs directly counter to the wing scaling laws being described. It seems they are painting themselves into a corner with rigid-wing AWES down-selects that will cannot keep up with soft-wings in the coming race to scale up to the urgent global need for abundant clean energy.


On Sunday, June 12, 2016 6:56 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Pierre,

It seems that TUDelft simply neglected to cite soft-wing scaling advantage for lack of analysis and experience, without regard to AWES Forum large kite engineering debates. Several less-experienced Forum members also still nurse vague doubts about soft scaling superiority. Why would these skeptical parties keep secret any evidence that rigid kites might scale as well or better than soft kites?

KiteShip, SkySails, Beaujean (an industrial naval engineer), kPower, and others have all have posed strong cases in favor of soft-wing scaling superiority, both in practice and analysis. Galileo's original square-cube law remains the key scientific-engineering argument behind soft-kite scaling advantage, and the AWES Forum has done a consistent job presenting this law-


If this were not enough presentation, TUDelft must have read SkySails text on the AWESCO site and is aware of soft ship-kite scaling logic, but has not reacted with technical logic. There is no known TUD refutation of ship-kite logic, nor do they have known experience with larger rigid AWES wings than Ampyx's small rigid wing experience, nor soft kites any bigger than 50m2.

Diligent comparative testing and/or market success has to be the final word in the "Soft v. Rigid Wings" AWES scaling debate.

daveS

==================

SkySails on AWESCO site-

"...increasing the kite size to more than 1000 m2 which is necessary to generate reasonable power with high altitude kite wind power systems."

"SkySails kites are the key technology for capturing the vast potential of high-altitude winds and SkySails is the first company in the world that has succeeded in developing towing-kite technology into an industrial application.
SkySails GmbH has been working with traction kites for over 10 years. Since 2007 the complete kite design has been made at Skysails. Over 150 kites from wing surface areas of 6 m² to 400 m² were manufactured."


On Saturday, June 11, 2016 8:34 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS,
 
On your link Flexible structures mentioned advantages of soft wing do not include the scalability, perhaps due to their lack of assessment of predictive informations being on AWE Forum. Specific mega-upscaling of soft wing should be studied in regard to " basic scaling laws, based on the quasi-2D nature of fabric.".
Other concerns (soft vs rigid) are:
  • reliable control
  • lifetime
  • launching (depending on the implemented system)
  • global costs (material, land use)
Perhaps a decisive advantage of soft wing can be the acceptability of public in regard to safety (crashes) and birds. A huge rigid tethered rotor can be difficult for such an acceptability. The scalability you mention appears to be the main point, being not depending of technology as soft and rigid have the same respective problems for a long time. The four points I note above appear to be achievable with more appropriate technologies.
 
PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20319 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2016
Subject: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept

Dassault Systemes has launched a major promotional campaign (full page ad in Time June 13, etc.) based on the the concept of a perfected wireless LTA AWES resembling Altaeros' BAT, somehow made possible by its 3D VR modeling environment. Never mind the impracticality of microwave beam low-efficiency (based on the antenna shown), the artist's concept shows no means for the AWES to maintain station.

From its website-



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20320 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Life cycle assessment of electricity production from airborne wi

"Compared to a conventional wind energy plant that was modeled in comparable size and procedure, the AWE plant needed a 50 % bigger generator and gearbox.", probably assuming the implementation of pumping (reel-in/out) systems. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20321 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

DaveS,

 

Your argument is relevant. Adding also a long tether bounding a large space imposing the implementation of a big (so perhaps not rigid) wing. A debate with TUDelft and companies on the present AWE forum would be interesting and could save years of R&D. What is your advice about scalability of Tensairity (R) wings http://www.tensairitysolutions.com/ ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20322 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine
Not sure where the following text below my post came from, but my best guess is it was inserted by JoeF:
"The Yang tracked attitude-changing wings are with similarity cases in some AWES concepts."
***Doug Replies: Just one more sideways laddermill.  At some point you boys may begin to note the redundancy of supposed "new" wind energy concepts.  They call it a "SuperTurbine".  Hmmm, as I informed Paul Dvorak, technically-speaking, that is a registered U.S. Trademark.

The multi-rotor AWES has historical roots and contemporary team projects. 
***Doug Replies:  Thank you.  Yes It is called SuperTurbine(R).

 The two-tri-blade affair could be lifted by kite systems and do the groundgen fanbelting as we know.
*** Doug Replies: They keep coming up with this idea over and over.  It seems to often emanate from Korea.  They index the second rotor by 30 degrees to avoid interference between the blades.  OMG!  That would work great as long as the thing is not turning.  Otherwise the second rotor could slow the thing down at best.   Amazing how many wannabe designers design turbines as though they are stationary.  Design a turbine for being stationary, and stationary it will be... it shows absolutely zero understanding.  What-everrrrrr....

"There are things in any wind turbine for kite-energy consideration. Finding the effective sweet formats for specific applications challenges and invites clever progressive explorations."
*** Doug Replies: That's where "AWE experts" come in, right?

===============================

JoeF notes:   Yes, the tail was mine. Thanks. 
There are historical roots of multi-rotor AWES prior to your SuperTurbine (R) matters. 

AWE workers are on task. 


Best, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20323 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
daveS said: "Correction Minestos's system has been "up and running" in the normal process of major extended field trials, for some years now. The pace of progress is faster than Doug implies."
***Doug Replies:  I am so grateful to have someone always there to instantly "correct" anything I may say...  You are talking about a scale prototype, right?  As an "AWE expert", can you provide any performance or energy generation data?  Continuous operation?  Reliability?

Whether or not investors make money is a separate question, but at least the principle is sound and SAAB engineers have a long trackrecord of successful engineering. Minesto is no fly-by-night outfit, and there is a betting chance that investors will be lucky, like "buying Microsoft early"*.
***Doug Repies:  So it can't "fly" after the sun goes down?  Kidding.  It does seem that they have a serious effort, which may work out or not.  Not sure whether it can be characterized as "not a fly-by-night effort" before the outcome is known.  Beware of accomplishments stated ahead of the fact in the field of clean energy.  In fact one might note that in this field, virtually ALL "accomplishments" are mere futuristic wishful statements, framed as established fact.  Consider the odds.

Minesto could even move into AWE and dominate, on the heels of paravane success.
***Doug Repies:  I think Joe has stated that Minesto is AWE.

----------

* This is a high-stakes game for qualified pro investors, not the place for grandma's life savings.
*** Doug Replies: maybe we should either invest or not, since all this chit-chat will not really do anything.

===============================
JoeF notes: 
        Yes, paravanes are AWE.    The forum preamble has water as media for energy kite systems. Jalbert is followed on this matter.  My guess is that DaveS intended to note that Minesto may enter energy kite systems where the air is the primary media.    Of course, we have many energy kite systems that employ two media:  water and air,  soil and air.   And we have rehearsed how three-media energy kite systems have a potential play: soil, water, and air ... all employed in one energy kite systems. 
Best, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20324 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Doug,

Your are patiently corrected on the AWES Forum, and thank you for appreciating the knowledge and effort required. Where else would anyone reliably spot your absurdity in patenting a Darrieus turbine in slow surface wind with a long driveshaft into faster wind, with rotors that turn would faster than the Darrieus can function?

"Up and running" does apply to "scale prototypes" in engineering.  For example, the Wrights' Flyers were the up-and-running grand prototypes of the fixed-wing aviation revolution that followed. Similarly, Minesto really is progressing the underwater kite space, and SAAB, as an aerospace giant, really could move back into its aviation core expertise via AWE. Your confusion seems to be based on not understanding the common fluid-dynamics involved.

In fact, fluid-dynamic expertise on the AWES Forum offers you the design option to develop your ST underwater where supporting your massive driveshaft by buoyancy is practical (but reaching upper wind by driveshaft is not). Otherwise, expect all the big players like SAAB, Mitsubishi, GE, and so on, to eventually get the job done without USWindLabs, in water or air, counting at all,

daveS


On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:08 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
daveS said: "Correction Minestos's system has been "up and running" in the normal process of major extended field trials, for some years now. The pace of progress is faster than Doug implies."
***Doug Replies:  I am so grateful to have someone always there to instantly "correct" anything I may say...  You are talking about a scale prototype, right?  As an "AWE expert", can you provide any performance or energy generation data?  Continuous operation?  Reliability?

Whether or not investors make money is a separate question, but at least the principle is sound and SAAB engineers have a long trackrecord of successful engineering. Minesto is no fly-by-night outfit, and there is a betting chance that investors will be lucky, like "buying Microsoft early"*.
***Doug Repies:  So it can't "fly" after the sun goes down?  Kidding.  It does seem that they have a serious effort, which may work out or not.  Not sure whether it can be characterized as "not a fly-by-night effort" before the outcome is known.  Beware of accomplishments stated ahead of the fact in the field of clean energy.  In fact one might note that in this field, virtually ALL "accomplishments" are mere futuristic wishful statements, framed as established fact.  Consider the odds.

Minesto could even move into AWE and dominate, on the heels of paravane success.
***Doug Repies:  I think Joe has stated that Minesto is AWE.

----------

* This is a high-stakes game for qualified pro investors, not the place for grandma's life savings.
*** Doug Replies: maybe we should either invest or not, since all this chit-chat will not really do anything.

===============================
JoeF notes: 
        Yes, paravanes are AWE.    The forum preamble has water as media for energy kite systems. Jalbert is followed on this matter.  My guess is that DaveS intended to note that Minesto may enter energy kite systems where the air is the primary media.    Of course, we have many energy kite systems that employ two media:  water and air,  soil and air.   And we have rehearsed how three-media energy kite systems have a potential play: soil, water, and air ... all employed in one energy kite systems. 
Best, 
JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20325 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Three Unusual Turbines from Windpower Engineering Magazine
Joe is right. The AWES Forum has been the place that gathered centuries of multi-rotor-on-one-shaft prior-art, and we count Rudy Harburg and others as having clear priority over Doug's SuperTurbine, except for Doug's apparently original idea of a massive rigid drive-shaft to upper wind, which we have been able to predict cannot scale effectively, based on basic scaling-law. Given this expert conclusion, we can see Dvorak is at least on solid ground in not identifying Doug's idea as airborne-based at all, only presuming it to be tower-based.

We do see Yang's superturbine as sharing the essential quality of a "horizontal laddermill", but that it must be soft-kite based to scale up and fly high. This specific fix of Yang's concept seems the best hope remaining for Doug to be proven correct in AWE that "all roads (might in fact) lead to the superturbine"


On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:00 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Not sure where the following text below my post came from, but my best guess is it was inserted by JoeF:
"The Yang tracked attitude-changing wings are with similarity cases in some AWES concepts."
***Doug Replies: Just one more sideways laddermill.  At some point you boys may begin to note the redundancy of supposed "new" wind energy concepts.  They call it a "SuperTurbine".  Hmmm, as I informed Paul Dvorak, technically-speaking, that is a registered U.S. Trademark.

The multi-rotor AWES has historical roots and contemporary team projects. 
***Doug Replies:  Thank you.  Yes It is called SuperTurbine(R).

 The two-tri-blade affair could be lifted by kite systems and do the groundgen fanbelting as we know.
*** Doug Replies: They keep coming up with this idea over and over.  It seems to often emanate from Korea.  They index the second rotor by 30 degrees to avoid interference between the blades.  OMG!  That would work great as long as the thing is not turning.  Otherwise the second rotor could slow the thing down at best.   Amazing how many wannabe designers design turbines as though they are stationary.  Design a turbine for being stationary, and stationary it will be... it shows absolutely zero understanding.  What-everrrrrr....

"There are things in any wind turbine for kite-energy consideration. Finding the effective sweet formats for specific applications challenges and invites clever progressive explorations."
*** Doug Replies: That's where "AWE experts" come in, right?

===============================

JoeF notes:   Yes, the tail was mine. Thanks. 
There are historical roots of multi-rotor AWES prior to your SuperTurbine (R) matters. 

AWE workers are on task. 


Best, 
JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20326 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: L/D ratio of kite and corresponding wing

L/D values of soft kites are roughly 3 or 4, and that of rigid kites (Makani, Ampyx) are 8 to 15. Why not more? Indeed L/D ratio of a paraglider is rougly 8 or 9, and that of a rigid glider is 45 and more.

Both tether drag and needed higher angle of attack of a kite prevents higher L/D values (point for discussion). 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20327 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept
Yeah, funny how renderings magically "do" whatever the artist or promoters say they do  Renderings are like a dream.  You wake up and think "what a cool dream", but then you start to consider the details, and you find yourself saying "dreams don't always make any sense".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20328 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr
daveS said: "A kite is a tethered aircraft with inherent mixed pitch-roll-yaw-heave-surge-sway motions."

*** Doug Replies: OK I'm confused now.  I could have sworn Joe said an underground rock is a kite.

JoeF replies:
        Never said such, Doug.   For months in PM, you kept misrepresenting the rock thing; very many corrections did not achieve a fair respect of the rock thing from you. You now press the unfair misrepresentation.   Again: A rock in the ground or air or water or ice may play the role of a wing of a kite when tension in the tether exists.   The wing of a kite is not the kite itself at first dimensioning of a object in careful mechanical exposition.     And for some reason you persist to avoid recognizing that in common parlance the wing of a kite is often taken into default as "kite" while mechanically such wing is strictly mechanically a non-complete subpart of a kite; a kite requires all of its essential parts to be kite:  wing set, tether set, resistive wing set; common parlance says kite, string, anchor; but we have a technical forum with needs for capturing opportunities.    Use the common parlance or abbreviatory nomenclature where the wing obtains the label "kite" but false misrepresentation of the system that has kite as necessarily an object that is a collection of sets (W, Tw, Wa) [Wing set, Tether set in tension which is also a form of wing set, Anchor wing set].   A rock or wing are not of themselves technically a kite.  If one finds a rock tethered by a tensed tether, then such rock is a wing of a kite; and in common parlance in that situation, the rock is a kite.   Please distinguish matters when representing what you swear Joe said.   Underground rocks are not kites, but are potential wings of kites. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20329 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Similarities noted to the concept of screwing in a light bulb by holding it still and rotating the building...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20330 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dassault Systemes' exaggerated wireless AWE concept
Doug opines wisely from direct experience; his own concepts having been beautifully rendered by Mike Sanchez in pop media, but not expected to be realizable, on technical grounds. The flip-side of his experience are the many famous artists' conceptions where the dream image relentlessly came true, by sound technical foundations. Many top aviation and space-exploration concepts are preceded by fine renderings. We see designs like the Boeing Dreamliner first in artist's concept form We count on that tradition to generally hold in AWE, never mind some expected bloopers.




On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 7:48 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Yeah, funny how renderings magically "do" whatever the artist or promoters say they do  Renderings are like a dream.  You wake up and think "what a cool dream", but then you start to consider the details, and you find yourself saying "dreams don't always make any sense".


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20331 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: L/D ratio of kite and corresponding wing
Pierre,

Modern pararfoils achieve L/D  
L/D values of soft kites are roughly 3 or 4, and that of rigid kites (Makani, Ampyx) are 8 to 15. Why not more? Indeed L/D ratio of a paraglider is rougly 8 or 9, and that of a rigid glider is 45 and more.
Both tether drag and needed higher angle of attack of a kite prevents higher L/D values (point for discussion). 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20332 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr
Joe,

The facts of course support your view that a rock anchor in soil acts as a kite. Particularly if the rock is rigged like a standard soil kite, the pitch-roll-yaw dynamics are obvious. Less obvious is that all objects that orient directionally have these motions, and that soil has fluid mechanics, in real life.

Doug is not just "unfair", but factually mistaken to only see kite principles in narrow layman's terms, rather than the actual physics common to broader kite definitions by the domain experts. I will carve a stone to act as kite in soil*, to add an empiric proof to your deep insight,

daveS

------------
* the test is for the rock kite to develop a lift force orthogonal to its tether axis in soil, when pulled.


On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 8:11 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
daveS said: "A kite is a tethered aircraft with inherent mixed pitch-roll-yaw-heave-surge-sway motions."

*** Doug Replies: OK I'm confused now.  I could have sworn Joe said an underground rock is a kite.

JoeF replies:
        Never said such, Doug.   For months in PM, you kept misrepresenting the rock thing; very many corrections did not achieve a fair respect of the rock thing from you. You now press the unfair misrepresentation.   Again: A rock in the ground or air or water or ice may play the role of a wing of a kite when tension in the tether exists.   The wing of a kite is not the kite itself at first dimensioning of a object in careful mechanical exposition.     And for some reason you persist to avoid recognizing that in common parlance the wing of a kite is often taken into default as "kite" while mechanically such wing is strictly mechanically a non-complete subpart of a kite; a kite requires all of its essential parts to be kite:  wing set, tether set, resistive wing set; common parlance says kite, string, anchor; but we have a technical forum with needs for capturing opportunities.    Use the common parlance or abbreviatory nomenclature where the wing obtains the label "kite" but false misrepresentation of the system that has kite as necessarily an object that is a collection of sets (W, Tw, Wa) [Wing set, Tether set in tension which is also a form of wing set, Anchor wing set].   A rock or wing are not of themselves technically a kite.  If one finds a rock tethered by a tensed tether, then such rock is a wing of a kite; and in common parlance in that situation, the rock is a kite.   Please distinguish matters when representing what you swear Joe said.   Underground rocks are not kites, but are potential wings of kites. 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20333 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
Correction: Doug's light bulb idea is not a good similarity-case, since it lacks a belt drive. Doug's established practice is to comment on technical matters in useless cliches like a concept being "on steroids" or resembling a light-bulb joke, rather than consistently pose meaningful technical suggestions or critiques (like comparing his AWES driveshaft to a belt-drive, by the numbers).

Far better similarity cases exist in the form of serpentine belts, ropes, or chains in machinery, where the method of a belt or cableway driving or being driven by multiple inputs and outputs is long well validated.




On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 8:14 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Similarities noted to the concept of screwing in a light bulb by holding it still and rotating the building...


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20334 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Quick Review of AWES Flight Stability by Passive or Active Contr
Sorry Joe, I think you are out in left field with your penchant for redefining words.  You do not control what the definition of a kite is.  The rest of the world gets a vote too.  Walk into a kite store.  Ask to see their kites.  They will show you kites, not anchors, not string, not reeling devices, kites.  (And not rocks.)  Then they might recommend a certain line weight, or a specific set of lines, to use with a particular kite.  They might tell you how much pull you can expect, so you can figure an appropriate anchor, or suitable object to tie-off to.  That anchor or object is probably not going to be "a wing" unless you happen to be at an airport.  To declare that anything you tie a kite-string to is "a wing" is a definition you have come up with, your pet set of word definitions, that I believe has no real basis.  What you are doing, in my opinion, is redefining the word "kite" after hundreds if not thousands of years of previous use, to have a certain meaning, and deciding that all the past use of the word "kite" was in error, and that "a kite" is "really" always "actually" a set of interconnected wings.  Not just a wing tied off to the ground, but the ground "has to be" "a wing" too.  Not that there is any reason for it, just that you like to think of it that way.  You're basically trying to say that a single "kite" (old meaning) does not exist, and that "kites" can ONLY come in multiples, because after seeing that kites CAN be interconnected, you want to mandate that ALL kites MUST be interconnected with other kites.  Only halfway through the process of redefining the word "kite", you realized you had to switch and use the word "wing" when you mean the "old definition" of "kite" (what everyone else thinks a kite is) because otherwise people would ask "if a kite must consist of multiple kites, then what are the kites that make up THOSE kites, leading to every kite "really" being a infinite number of kites.  And at this point I'm sure you will jump right on that, as you have in private e-mails with me, and agree that every kite is "really" an infinite number of "kites".  Some might note that could be a way of applying differential calculus to a kite.  Not sure how you might split it up further by the time you get to each atom of a kite being "a wing" or "a kite" or whatever you might claim at that point, but to me it quickly degenerates into a "theater of the absurd".
I simply do not agree that, by being a moderator of a group on the internet, you are suddenly "the dictionary" and can mandate word meanings for the rest of the world.  A rock underground serving as a kite anchor is NEVER a wing, never a kite.  Underwater, sure, you could make a case for it.  Although others might call it "a floating keel", resistive hydrofoil, etc., - labels are available for anything we can imagine.  The soil is not "flowing" around the rock creating "lift", even though YOU say it is.  The rock is held down by the weight and friction of unmoving soil, not by a dynamic flow of soil under the rock creating low pressure amounting to upside-down lift based on a change of inertia.  I would suggest you might take a college course or two in engineering and maybe fluid mechanics, or get up to speed on aerodynamics if this is confusing for you.  Start with the definition of static friction versus kinetic friction, as just a start.  Sure, flowing soil, as in a landslide or liquefaction during an earthquake, or maybe quicksand (really mostly water anyway) could be treated as a fluid in some ways, but soil or bedrock for supporting structures or serving as anchors is specifically tested for NOT acting like a liquid.  The idea that this is even a discussion is, to me, just 100% absurd and not worth the time it has taken to type this.  Anyone can go off into their own little world and claim anything "is really" whatever they want to say.  It's whether the rest of the world agrees that remains an important factor too.  At this point I would like to note that most of these discussions amount to a comical "I'd like an argument please" type of situation.  Fun sometimes, but what does it really accomplish?  We say "I want to pursue AWE" so we get on the internet and think "Oh, participating in discussions on the internet can be part of accomplishing AWE."  But at some point beware:  when the discussion degenerates into nonsense, and from there into whether the nonsense is nonsense, I think we've gone off a cliff.  There "is no there there" when all we can do is discuss "what the meaning of is is".  Have a fun day everyone!  :)
~ Doug Selsam
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JoeF replies: 
     Doug, it has been well noted in forum that one welcome to exercise the J-Model
or not.  The J-Model sits as an option for use by creative engineering.   It is clear that you do not want to exercise your explorations in energy kite systems using the J-Model for Kite; I have no problem with your choice.  

    Kite is better known today than ever; the improved set of insights has allowed the J-Model for Kite. When useful, the model is now available.  Pointing to non-users of the J-Model for Kite does not make less the potential good that may arrive from using the model. Within the model there can be statements that do not match statements constructed within some other model; such is natural logic, not proof of the utility of any certain model.  Any member or non-member is free to propose a model for "kite".  
    Readers may search the forum and akiteis for alternative perspectives.  
   To each human: "What is kite to you? 
    You put quotes over some phrases that are not my phrases. Please be careful about such presentation.
 ~ JoeF