Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 18703 to 18755 Page 268 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18703 From: dougselsam Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18705 From: dougselsam Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18706 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18707 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18708 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18709 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18711 From: dougselsam Date: 8/16/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18712 From: dave santos Date: 8/16/2015
Subject: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18713 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18714 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18715 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18716 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Small OL Traction Kite drags loose two Gomberg Sand Anchors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18717 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18718 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18719 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18720 From: dougselsam Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18721 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18722 From: Andrew K Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Inflatable tower - farfetched?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18723 From: Rod Read Date: 8/18/2015
Subject: AWES forum: perceived lazy moderation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18726 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Publish in AWES forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18727 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18728 From: Rod Read Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18729 From: Rod Read Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18731 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18732 From: Rod Read Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18733 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfredo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Atmospheric electrical generator by Mark Ellery Ogram

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18736 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Edward Jones

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18737 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18738 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: Edward Jones

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: atmospheric thermal energy conversion by Jens O. Sorensen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18740 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Dong Ho Kim of Los Angeles, California

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Blogger suggests structure

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18742 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Methods of setting arch kite anchors in face of a barrier

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18743 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 8/20/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfre

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18744 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18745 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: LAGI, source of AWE meditations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18746 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Campos Yamila Zynda Aiub Architects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18747 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Wind Wheel (conception, part of LAGI portfolio)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18748 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Kited Sky Nets

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18749 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: KiteGen photos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18750 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: KiteGen Venture

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18751 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: AWES Demos at WSIKF2015

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18752 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18753 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Re: Blogger suggests structure

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18754 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18755 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
Subject: Re: LAGI, source of AWE meditations




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18703 From: dougselsam Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.
I still don't see any question even being asked, except for adjustments of a definition of a phrase "cross winding" OR "crosswinding" OR "cross-winding".
You know the wing is deflecting air downward. 
What is there left to "prove"?
I'm really baffled that you guys could go on like this about (in my opinion) absolutely nothing.  I do not see any meaning to this discussion.  Joe talks about getting his definition from aviation - I bring up the point that "crosswind" in that context applies to sideways winds, and that the wing would be seen by any pilot as steady forward flight directly into a headwind, with no crosswind component involved - no response, as though I had said nothing.  What happened to wanting to explore the world of aviation for the answer?  Suddenly a simple answer is pulled from aviation and the answer is unwanted.  Joe, I don't think you WANT an answer.  It really appears that there's some strange dynamic at play, almost as an excuse for no progress, that paralysis-by-analysis forms some sort of running-excuse or valid substitute for exploring anything that works or developing any solutions.  It's reminiscent of delaying tactics such as "Wait, this is quantum physics! (Well then of COURSE we can't expect any progress - it would be too complicated!)
I have not heard any valid response to my assertion that this entire exercise (in futility - my opinion) as anything more than adjusting a desired word definition to obtain a desired outcome, except Joe, you are not even acknowledging that you CAN get a simple "yes" or "no" based on how you want to define your term.  And the idea that there even IS a DESIRE for an answer seems to be evaporating.  It seems what is desired is an endless mystery, and a fake one at that.  If there is a mystery, what exactly is the missing information?  It's almost like you're worshiping a series of letters as a god at this point, and we're discussing it as though "nobody really knows the ways of this god - it is above us, so we can never really know" or maybe "we need years of study".  Well, I think I answered the aviation angle.  No response.  No answer wanted. Oh well.
Please tell me, what information is missing at this point?
What is preventing you from nailing this down, right now?
Or do you really even WANT to nail anything down?
Is it more comfortable to be pretending there is some mystery here? 
The only mystery I see is the mystery of "what is the mystery?"  If you don't like the word "fixation" or "endless fixation" how about "attention to this" and if it is not "endless", tell me where the end will be.  What is the point of starting with a simple example where you define every aspect, then treating it like there is some unknown, when there IS no unknown?

Also, regarding Pierres(?) assertion: "Now generally in AWE universities or companies "crosswind kite power" does not appoint rotating kite as such."
My response to that is that all these universities are disappointingly (again, my opinion) showing very little expertise or understanding of the space, approaching wind energy from a beginner angle, and, if what you say is true, that would be just one more example. (moves hand over head - shoom!)  :)

By the way, "committee"?  What the heck?  What committee?  Is this a new career now?  For several people?  To define one phrase, as though defining that phrase some new way will change anything?  It seems you're not even aware that defining, or redefining that phrase is the only thing going on here.  I have to say I am completely baffled.  This whole line of discussion, to me, is not only from another planet, the entire stream of logic is from another universe!

If I give some input, how about replying to my input?  I answered your question about deriving a definition (the only thing in question) from aviation:  Answer: straight flight into a headwind, NO crosswind component.  What is your answer to THAT?  Or do you ever WANT an answer?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Hold your horses, Doug. The PACE of response might not exactly fit your feelings. Things have been going along quite robustly for this topic.  I really do appreciate your careful attention on the topic. Indeed, look at the many times I have responded to your many of your points.  You have been working on some facets of the project and so have I. We have both posted. My time on respecting Pierre's contribution and yours has been continuing. I have not yet responded to your second to most recent post or your recent post, except now for this quieting remark.  Indeed, early in the project I noted to you that my target was to respond to your many points.   Indeed, it is a joy to see that you have spent respectful time and energy to face the topic command-voice string.   

         Appreciating your style and perspectives on the topic takes some meditation time for me; a pause is not any proof of ignoring a post. Letting things sink in while also attending to other matters results in pauses that seem to bring a little discomfort to you in a positive way in my take. I read that you think that matter got settled upon your fine posts; and maybe you have put forward a proof; I aim to assent to any proof that I see as sound, but it may take some checking for me to get to that point. It is well possible that checking a proof takes more time than the prover used in forming a proof. Sometimes in a flash someone sees a proof and gives a sound presentation. But to have a community see the soundness of the proof may not occur in a flash. I hear in the ether the excitement of some historical discoverer: "Eureka!"   Yet it might take the rest of the world a good amount of time before "seeing" what the discoverer saw.      We have the time stamp over your good contributions on the project, so we will be able to note any progress in a good timeline.  Hopefully you have solve the challenge, Doug; it seems that you feel that you have solved the topic by answering the command-voice: "Prove ...."   My guess is that you are close to resting the case as far as you are concerned and may be waiting for community confirmation over your good work; all of that seems appropriate to me. For my part, I have not combed two recent posts of yours yet up to the standard of how I want to comb them. You are not forgotten or skipped over; the vagaries of forum posting and schedules, etc. will result in some timing that is somewhat jumpy. In the end, it is hoped that a very succinct presentation will occur of sound proof offers. You have the option to let others "see" your offers and perhaps refined them to a tight proof; you would still get historical credit for the core sound proof, if you have presented one or more, if right is respected. 


Report:  Committee work on aviation's use of involved and related terms on topic has not been completed, else a robust report would be available in this topic thread. No such report has been issued.   It is noted that you have mentioned and I have mentioned some tidbits about aviation's use of the involved terms; but the target is to see robustly aviation's use of the involved terms to see if some careful workable definitions are in consensus that then might by consensus be the entry for this topic's challenge.   From my survey of your posts, my guess is that you think this matter is a done deal and you used such to provide the proof options you've written. Following the committee's work, it might end up in full match with what you have done; such cannot be declared yet, as the report is not completed or placed in the project's flow. If there is a strong good consensus aviation community definition for "cross winding" then that would be a preferred entry for the present project rather than forming any new definition.


There is no game here of holding some mystery forgone conclusion. The project is to reach clarity over whether or not the scenario kited wing is non-cross winding. Such exercise may help firm language in RAD when cross winding is or is not involved. It is then hoped that niche AWES in the non-cross winding arena and AWES in the cross winding arena will shows themselves more readily in their best mechanical selves.


I will now go study your two most recent posts. And continue to study your earlier posts, as some things in first reading were not fully digested and sorted into the larger project.  Then I will comment on the points of your post.   Thank you again for your time on this project; I hope that there will be rewards for your exercise and production.


Soon,

   Joe F.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18705 From: dougselsam Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.
OK Joe, I'm going to try a different tack to illustrate how ridiculous I think this entire subject is.
We've all heard the old joke: "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  Answer "To get to the other side".

Instead of a chicken, let's imagine Joe crossing a road.  "Why would Joe CROSS the road, instead of just STANDING in the road?"  Answer: "To avoid being run over by a truck".

Joe stands in the middle of a road.  On one shoulder, Joe hosts "Captain Reality", and on Joe's other shoulder sits our beloved "Professor Crackpot".  A large truck approaches.

Professor Crackpot pipes up: "Joe, I know it may LOOK like you're just standing in the road, but what you're REALLY doing is "cross roading", because your feet are pushing down in the road, and that force is perpendicular to the direction of the road, therefore you are "cross-roading", so you don't have to worry about that truck coming; by the time that truck gets here, you'll be safe by virtue of the "fact" that you are exemplifying a new term, "cross roading".

Now "Captain Reality" begs to differ, warning, "No Joe, listen to the good professor at your own peril - he's full-of it!  A truck is coming and what you need to engage in is called "road crossing" - there is not even ANY SUCH THING as "cross roading" since "road" is a noun, not a verb.  If you continue to rely on "roading" of any kind, you'll surely be killed!  There is no such thing as "roading" - it's just a mis-use of the English language.  No such abuse of language can save you - You need to CROSS!

The truck continues to approach.  Joe challenges Captain Reality: "Thanks for your advice, Captain, but can you PROVE I am NOT "cross roading"?"

Captain Reality is now pulling his hair out, knowing that if Joe doesn't cross the road soon, all 3 of them will be road-pizza.  "Joe, I TOLD you THERE IS NO SUCH THING as "roading", let alone "cross roading", you're somehow confused with a twisted vocabulary game while your life is at stake!  Even the good professor will be killed if you don't start listening to me!  Please, CROSS THE FREAKIN' ROAD!!!

Joe calmly replies: "Well I'd really like to take some time, do some research you know, and I really don't have time to do it now, but I want to check some references online, just to make sure someone from the field of transportation hasn't ever used the term "roading" or "cross roading" because without some sort of "proof" I really am paralyzed - paralysis by analysis, doncha know..., darn it, my feet won't move.

"Honk Hoooooooooooooonk", blares the approaching truck.  "Quick!" screams Captain Reality, "You GOT to CROSS the ROAD - NOW!"

"Nonsense!" Professor Crackpot interjects "You're "cross roading" by virtue of your weight on the road, perpendicular to the direction of travel of that truck, so you are safe with me and my calculations!  Remember, I've got a PhD and I'm going ON RECORD right now: You are definitely "cross roading!"

Needless to say, within seconds (SPLAT!)  Joe and his two imaginary friends are indeed "road pizza", complete with tire-marks through the center of the mess, but miraculously, for a few seconds, Joe's head is still alive.  Looking closely, one can barely see Joe form the words on his lips "But can anyone "PROVE" I am not "cross roading"...?"

The End   :)

Moral of the story:
There is no such thing as "cross winding" because there is no such thing as "winding".  "Wind" is a noun, not a verb.  The proper term would be "wind-crossing" as in "a wind-crossing wing."  And unless one MOVES across the direction of the wind, one is not "wind crossing".  God forbid Joe would use the English language as intended, leaving no ambiguity, saying for example "crossing the wind".

Oh wait - the story goes on for a few more seconds:  "Professor Crackpot" is still barely alive!  he has one more thing to say before expiring:  He manages to adjust his bowtie and push up his dandruff-encrusted glasses one last time before victoriously declaring "See!  I told you so!".  (?????)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18706 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

From personal email studies, Dave Santos, CTO of kPower, Inc here below is quoted (with permission) on this topic. Here is the quote:

=====

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 9:20 AM, dave santos wrote:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18707 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Super Doug!  Classic.  LOL.  Well done!  

While committee is still at work, while I am still working on now all three recent posts of yours on topic, the third post, just above, shows some neat things to consider while giving a fun and interesting presentation. Enjoyed and will enjoy for years to come!  You have starkly introduced some facets that will need to be fielded to reach clarity on the topic.

    The engineers that are surveying for construction of cross roads may be doing cross roading, not sure. Roading the world without any cross roading has shown to be an expensive way, I would guess.


Gerund: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund     This facet might be incorporated in this topic's project, not sure yet.

wind

winding 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18708 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

Perhaps the gerund form might function better:  The ball is doing greening.   Etc.   Or the ball is greening.

==============================================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18709 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/15/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.

We have not yet mentioned how much the scenario wing is fixedly veering off wind streamlines.        Such might shake up the discussion some.


=============================

The committee on aviation culture using crosswind offer the following for some practice:

Ultimate Crosswind Landings Compilation 2015

Sense what might occur if a cross winding landing aircraft meets a wind of such direction and magnitude that the aircraft makes zero ground headway in any direction for say 2 minutes duration.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18711 From: dougselsam Date: 8/16/2015
Subject: Re: Prove a particular kited wing as non-cross winding.
I'd like to put an end to this confusion.
First of all, the aviation word "crosswind" is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORD than "crosswind" in AWE:

1) In aviation "crosswind" is a NOUN, referring to a WIND (noun) blowing (verb) ACROSS (modifier) the direction of the runway or flightpath.  It is NOT a VERB.  WIND is not a verb, and WINDING (in that context) is not even a word, in the sense you're talking about, nor is "crosswinding" even a word.

2) In AWE "crosswind" is a preposition or adjective - a MODIFIER, which MODIFIES (describes) the MOTION OF A KITE, communicating the fact that the KITE TRAVELS ACROSS THE WIND.

The fact that there has been any confusion about this, from the start, is one more artifact of "word-worship" where someone assumes that a mere WORD (collection of letters) IS the main thing to study, (an object of worship, not to be questioned or recognized for its role in any way, but simply put on a pedestal then misused) with any related reality coming as a secondary consideration, treated as nothing but an annoyance.  (Yeah, I'll get to that at some point - who cares, right now I'm just abusing a word to create confusion!)  This is where Joe can make such statements that consider "crosswind" as a VERB (which it is NOT, either in aviation nor AWE).  It's an inappropriate and incorrect use of language.

IF, and I say only IF, someone is actually INTERESTED in using the English language properly to COMMUNICATE with people, rather than to obscure what is simple and create confusion where there was none, the way to use such terms PROPERLY would be as follows:

The AWE version of "crosswind" combines a noun "WIND" and a modifying preposition "CROSS" (short for "across"), to describe the DIRECTION of MOVEMENT of a kite.  Keyword: MOVEMENT.  Since the word "crosswind" describes "movement of a kite across the wind", to ask whether a kite that is NOT moving across the wind is "crosswinding" makes no sense from two (2) aspects:
1) Crosswind is NOT a verb, so there is no such thing as "crosswindING", based on there being no such word as "winding" (in that context) with a meaning of traveling in some direction related to the wind.
2) The kite was defined as NOT moving across the direction of the wind, in fact not moving at all.

The REAL words to use, in real English, would be to say a kite is "crossing the wind" (with "crossing" being the verb (action word) and "wind" being the noun (thing) that the kite crosses,

It could also be said as "wind-crossing" preserving the idea that "crossing" is the main action word (verb) here, again, describing the motion of a kite, and using "wind" as the modifier indicating WHAT is being CROSSED.

To first define a situation where the wing is NOT crossing the wind then ask whether the wing IS crossing the wind is confusing enough.  But to then misuse the English language by using a noun as a verb (winding), rather than using the verb as a verb ("crossing") is to simply inject incomprehensibility into an otherwise straightforward scenario.

Thus, an artificial question is created: one that has no answer, and CAN have no answer.

This, really, in my opinion, is a perfect illustration of exactly why there is such a lack of progress in AWE: COMPLETE CONFUSION - confusion over what words even MEAN, over what TYPE of words one is using, thinking a NOUN (crosswind) from aviation is somehow equivalent to an ADVERB or MODIFIER  from AWE (crosswind in AWE modifies (describes) the flight of a kite, rather than describing the wind by naming its direction).

(Not to mention confusing words with reality, as though endless word-confusion offers any new insights or suggest any useful configurations)

Therefore, Joe, I do not think this entire direction of inquiry is even a VALID conversation.  It's really a treatise on nothingness - more nothingness masquerading as somethingness.

The word you should be using is "wind-crossing", and you can then ask if your stationary, tethered wing, flying in a steady headwind is "crossing the wind" ("windcrossing, if you insist) or not.

No it is not "crosswinding" because, just as a start, "crosswinding" is not even a word.

If you want an actual answer, it would be "no, but the wing is deflecting the wind" because it is not moving across the wind, since you defined it as not moving at all.

If you want to examine whether the wing is traveling across the wind under a frame of reference of the wind itself, then again, no, the wing is not traveling across the wind (not crossing the wind, not "wind-crossing") since the relative motion of the wing to the wind is PARALLEL to the direction of the wind.

And if you want to use the frame of reference of the deflected wind, the wing is STILL not crossing the wind, because within that small area, the deflection of the wind follows the pitch and camber of the wing, so even from that strained interpretation, it would be difficult to make a case that the wing was "wind-crossing", (let alone "cross-winding, which doesn't even exist) BUT, if you DID want to make that case, the ONLY thing you'd REALLY be doing is DEFINING your own use, in that single context, for the word "wind-crossing".

Therefore, I think this entire conversation is more absurd than it even appears at first glance, beginning with the word "wind" being a noun, not a verb, and ending with the word "crosswind" having a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANING in AWE (modifier to the motion of a kite) from its meaning in aviation (noun describing a wind with a particular direction "across" the direction of a runway, or across the direction of a flight path).

I believe it is EXACTLY this sort of COMPLETE CONFUSION, where your feet COULD BE firmly on the ground (so to speak) but instead you do not even recognize the TYPES of words you are using, let alone their meaning or proper usage, confusing two completely different words that sound alike and are spelled alike, then further MISUSING the word in a context for which it was never intended (using a modifier as a verb), and in which it makes no sense.

This "theather of the absurd" is, to me, a complete waste of time, and in no way leads to any new thinking, but instead serves to bog down thought in a quagmire of artificially-created confusion.  This leads to SAD (Slow Airborne Wind Energy Development) (or how about "SLAWED"?)

To me, if the government (let's just say) wanted to find a way to SLOW the progress of AWE, and to make it seem as confusing as possible, they could  do worse than to hire a JoeF and a daveS to obfuscate any and every aspect of public discussion on the topic, starting with endless injections of complete nonsense and off-topic musings, to shifting every conversation to personal attacks and insults, to finally abandoning the English language as it is commonly understood, and instead abusing the language to the point of artificially crafting meaningless questions that can serve only to add confusion of a meaningless and inappropriate nature, to a nascent art which, by ITS nature, already has ENOUGH uncertainty and confusion, without artificial injections of absurdity in the form of misuse of language.  Enough is enough.  I say if someone can't understand the meaning of simple words, stop trying to use them.  The world doesn't need more confusion.  If you are that confused, I say it would be best to keep it under your hat and not spread it around - the world doesn't need more confusion based on the mere abuse and misuse of words.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18712 From: dave santos Date: 8/16/2015
Subject: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Its been proposed on the AWES Forum that a classic symmetrical yacht spinnaker can be flown without a mast, with only a pilot-kite to hold up the head of the sail. To validate this idea and then apply it to drive a crosswind cableway is the goal of a concurrent set of tests in Austin, Texas and Ilwaco Washington. kPower has just taken delivery on the sails and will share test results and videos as they happen.

Its expected that, ultimately, a bi-axially symmetric (or nearly so) SS power kite concept will fly (gybe) just as a spinnaker, as described above, but with higher L/D to sweep crosswind better. Predicting ~30MW units feasible in current <2000ft FAA allowance, so ~thirty units ganged on a crosswinding cable-way comprises the latest GW-scale AWES conceptual contender.

Pro Tip- For best crosswinding performance of a downwind spinnaker, tilt it sideways into the wind to fly a higher crosswind sailing angle.

Open-AWE_IP-Pool


---- personal note ----

Thanks to the AWES Forum Moderation team for addressing complaints in moderation enforcement standards.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18713 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
by
Pro Tip- For best crosswinding performance of a downwind spinnaker, tilt it sideways into the wind to fly a higher crosswind sailing angle.
I assume you intend to take a pulled line towed PTO at the sides of the wind window... Holding the spinnaker tight and taking pulled motion output phased with alternate gybing course change.
Would this tilt be by flying the lift kite ahead of the spinnaker? So the lift has to be faster than the spinnaker ... In which case why use a spinnaker?
A lift kite is necessary for this endeavour as the leading edge of a spinnaker has to be kept very taught.
A downwind symmetrical spinnaker isn't so fast across the wind. It would be simpler to operate in this kited configuration granted. But a better performance could be gained by gybing an asymmetric spinnaker which flies closer to wind.
This would however need more control from the sides. And the controls would have to be moveable with wind direction change, well anchored for tension requirements, and well lubricated and rolling for energy take off.

Sound possible and useful if applied where there are appropriate circumstances.
I had enough trouble with inconsistent winds flying a flag under a kite on the weekend.

Nice to see you back on forum. Hope you enjoyed a nice break.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18714 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Rod,

That was no break for me, but a desperate escape from trolls run amok. Many factual posts composed simply did not get posted, and will take some time to catch up. Glad you are back on the moderator job.

There are many immediate tactical research advantages to symmetric spinnaker tests. One is the dirt-cheap pricing of old yacht sails, even below-fabric-cost for finely made sails by the world's best sailmakers. Another is that the symmetric spinnaker does not change faces when it changes tacks, but merely shifts a bit relative to the boat, which matches my operational design need for a 30,000m2 wing based on SS Power Kite construction. 

The SS power kite is to be flown sideways on its ends without a pilot, able to fly over to the other side of the cable to double the wind directions a given cable run can handle. Lets call that shunting. 30 such wings hauling on one crosswinding cableway comprise a GW AWES concept fitting under the 2000ft FAA altitude allowance. The farm design is suited to create a kite hybrid of many legacy power plants, adapts easily to wind from any quarter, and cuts land need almost in half over prior high density designs.

By simple comparison, an asymmetric spinnaker is the better wing, but its harder to gybe (not counting spinnaker pole, which is eliminated in the AWES concept). A bi-axially symmetric SS power kite should combine the best of both wings, and kPower's plucky little Peter Lynn SS power kite will follow in the crude spinnaker design pipeline. The sketches will explain better just how handy this rig will be.

Symmetric spinnakers will also be ideal for Aerotecture experiments, but that's another app.

daveS



On Monday, August 17, 2015 3:07 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
by
Pro Tip- For best crosswinding performance of a downwind spinnaker, tilt it sideways into the wind to fly a higher crosswind sailing angle.
I assume you intend to take a pulled line towed PTO at the sides of the wind window... Holding the spinnaker tight and taking pulled motion output phased with alternate gybing course change.
Would this tilt be by flying the lift kite ahead of the spinnaker? So the lift has to be faster than the spinnaker ... In which case why use a spinnaker?
A lift kite is necessary for this endeavour as the leading edge of a spinnaker has to be kept very taught.
A downwind symmetrical spinnaker isn't so fast across the wind. It would be simpler to operate in this kited configuration granted. But a better performance could be gained by gybing an asymmetric spinnaker which flies closer to wind.
This would however need more control from the sides. And the controls would have to be moveable with wind direction change, well anchored for tension requirements, and well lubricated and rolling for energy take off.

Sound possible and useful if applied where there are appropriate circumstances.
I had enough trouble with inconsistent winds flying a flag under a kite on the weekend.

Nice to see you back on forum. Hope you enjoyed a nice break.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18715 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Cool,
can't wait to see the sketches to better understand the full layout.

I assume there is some grouped stability function inherent from the combination of spinnakers you intend to join.
Sounds tricky to join each one so that each is set well for all firing in 1 direction along the cable. Does it make a v large mega spinnaker / arch / skin. Yes with combining cascading bridling... why not...? (got to be a reason there somewhere... )

Keen to see the shunted line end anchoring you suggest. I'm imagining the PTO ends are able to be moved to new anchors when the sail is away at the far end?
Spinnakers combined to 30,000m2 is many x bigger than a PL skin.
Was flying (and teaching with ) some of the 4 line Peter Lynn Single Skin "Skin" kites on the weekend. On it's own a single PL skin has demanding control needs.

Some of the kids "got it" ... even the very awkward backwards modes...
Needless to say some of the adults didn't "get it" and got hauled along the beach face first.

I also re-flew my multi windsurf sail arch, this time with a large windsock tail to keep it more steady... However I did find it managed to get a twist mode where one of the sails had flipped over on the loadpath... Said sail now has a rip in the window.

Single skin kites fly more efficiently without biaxial symmetry... I'm sure you know that... Is the symmetry there to avoid ground infrastructure?


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18716 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Small OL Traction Kite drags loose two Gomberg Sand Anchors
kPower's  8m2 KiteShip OL yesterday dragged loose its two anchors in a 15mph breeze on Long Beach, Washington. These Gomberg anchors normally hold secure large show kites, and are rated at one-ton. The dry sand was loose, and there was a 45 deg rigger's angle between anchors and load, so the estimated tear-out pull was only around 500lbs; still well above normal human strength, by just a kilo of nylon in a fresh breeze.

The actual experiment was a new anchored control bar with a spreader-bar (rope in a tube). One sits lazily reclined in the sand, with the control bar nicely at hand. By just a light touch, a large powerful kite flies tame ballet. This DIY KIS rig is to serve for piloted load-pulling, by adding a PTO.

What actually happened first, by a bit of set-up negligence; the OL launched inside-out, causing control reversal, and a slapstick struggle to maintain control as the sand anchors downwinded along. The kite-kill was a gloveless ad hoc affair, since a proper killer was not yet rigged. The good news is basic pilot comfort and control was briefly confirmed, and next time the anchors and set-up will be better.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18717 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
As introduced in previous posts, each mega-sail would operate on its small stretch of cableway, hauling bi-directionally. The units do not have to all be working together, but coordinated enough as a group for smooth load velocity. The scheme also tows in lulls. Its closest to Joe Hadzicki's cableway, as documented by DaveL in 2004, but multiplied by many units ganged on one cableway (arrayified at megascaled).



On Monday, August 17, 2015 11:54 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Cool,
can't wait to see the sketches to better understand the full layout.

I assume there is some grouped stability function inherent from the combination of spinnakers you intend to join.
Sounds tricky to join each one so that each is set well for all firing in 1 direction along the cable. Does it make a v large mega spinnaker / arch / skin. Yes with combining cascading bridling... why not...? (got to be a reason there somewhere... )

Keen to see the shunted line end anchoring you suggest. I'm imagining the PTO ends are able to be moved to new anchors when the sail is away at the far end?
Spinnakers combined to 30,000m2 is many x bigger than a PL skin.
Was flying (and teaching with ) some of the 4 line Peter Lynn Single Skin "Skin" kites on the weekend. On it's own a single PL skin has demanding control needs.

Some of the kids "got it" ... even the very awkward backwards modes...
Needless to say some of the adults didn't "get it" and got hauled along the beach face first.

I also re-flew my multi windsurf sail arch, this time with a large windsock tail to keep it more steady... However I did find it managed to get a twist mode where one of the sails had flipped over on the loadpath... Said sail now has a rip in the window.

Single skin kites fly more efficiently without biaxial symmetry... I'm sure you know that... Is the symmetry there to avoid ground infrastructure?


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18718 From: Rod Read Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Sorry I've not caught your references there Dave S.
Look forward to seeing whether it is lots of single units with single unit ground control needs..?
Or grouped control?

and as for the cable way ... same sorta question
is it 1 big ground loop with many sails controlled on the downwind side from a central point?
Is it arrayed triangular cell loops with combined nodal PTO with free-wheel & fly wheel?
Is it 1 large triangle with each spinnaker flown from inside or outside the triangle on a combined gang line?
Or some other..

Don't worry... I'm sure the drawings / plans will make it clear.
Very exciting sounding.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18719 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Rod

As usual, we rely on the semantic description to ultimately make sense when the graphical media comes out. It sets a priority date, and the temporary uncertainty often triggers new thinking that an overdefined fait accompli would not.

Maybe you figured out an even better scheme by guessing. No to all three guesses. Its a weathercocking crosswind cableway that is driven or drives kites bi-directionally. Imagine yourself pulling either way in turn, or being pulled either way, along your own small section of cableway run.



On Monday, August 17, 2015 1:31 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Sorry I've not caught your references there Dave S.
Look forward to seeing whether it is lots of single units with single unit ground control needs..?
Or grouped control?

and as for the cable way ... same sorta question
is it 1 big ground loop with many sails controlled on the downwind side from a central point?
Is it arrayed triangular cell loops with combined nodal PTO with free-wheel & fly wheel?
Is it 1 large triangle with each spinnaker flown from inside or outside the triangle on a combined gang line?
Or some other..

Don't worry... I'm sure the drawings / plans will make it clear.
Very exciting sounding.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18720 From: dougselsam Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
daveS said: "Rod, That was no break for me, but a desperate escape from trolls run amok."
*** 1) Not an "escape" because he spent the whole time harassing the "trolls" by e-mail, threatening them (us) with his promise of leaving us on this list without him, which I instantly flagged as just one more false statement.  Did he leave the list?  No.

"Many factual posts composed simply did not get posted, and will take some time to catch up. Glad you are back on the moderator job."
*** Factual?  Hah!  He "strategically" says Roddy is "back on the moderator job" to rationalize not leaving, since when he realized leaving would have left him with nobody to argue with, he qualified it with the disclaimer "unless Roddy moderates better", since I had flagged his promise to leave as unlikely (false).

"There are many immediate tactical research advantages to symmetric spinnaker tests. One is the dirt-cheap pricing of old yacht sails, even below-fabric-cost for finely made sails by the world's best sailmakers."
*** shouldn't they be called "makesailers"?  Better check with Joe...

"Another is that the symmetric spinnaker does not change faces when it changes tacks, but merely shifts a bit relative to the boat, which matches my operational design need for a 30,000m2 wing based on SS Power Kite construction."
*** This he will never build.  That is a real knee-slapper.

By simple comparison, an asymmetric spinnaker is the better wing, but its harder to gybe (not counting spinnaker pole, which is eliminated in the AWES concept). A bi-axially symmetric SS power kite should combine the best of both wings, and kPower's plucky little Peter Lynn SS power kite will follow in the crude spinnaker design pipeline. The sketches will explain better just how handy this rig will be.
*** You read it here first: "will be"...  when should we check back?

"Symmetric spinnakers will also be ideal for Aerotecture experiments, but that's another app.
daveS"
*** We'll hold our breath...  again...  Anyone taking notes?  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18721 From: dave santos Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Novel Megascale SS Crosswinding AWES Concept
Well, if Doug is not being moderated, as evidenced by his unhelpful posting on this topic, I'll stay off the Forum until he is.

Today was the first day of WSIKF, with long-planned daily AWE demos of varied kinds, but its not worth posting here with Doug unmoderated. Send me a private request if you want reports.



On Monday, August 17, 2015 6:10 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
daveS said: "Rod, That was no break for me, but a desperate escape from trolls run amok."
*** 1) Not an "escape" because he spent the whole time harassing the "trolls" by e-mail, threatening them (us) with his promise of leaving us on this list without him, which I instantly flagged as just one more false statement.  Did he leave the list?  No.

"Many factual posts composed simply did not get posted, and will take some time to catch up. Glad you are back on the moderator job."
*** Factual?  Hah!  He "strategically" says Roddy is "back on the moderator job" to rationalize not leaving, since when he realized leaving would have left him with nobody to argue with, he qualified it with the disclaimer "unless Roddy moderates better", since I had flagged his promise to leave as unlikely (false).

"There are many immediate tactical research advantages to symmetric spinnaker tests. One is the dirt-cheap pricing of old yacht sails, even below-fabric-cost for finely made sails by the world's best sailmakers."
*** shouldn't they be called "makesailers"?  Better check with Joe...

"Another is that the symmetric spinnaker does not change faces when it changes tacks, but merely shifts a bit relative to the boat, which matches my operational design need for a 30,000m2 wing based on SS Power Kite construction."
*** This he will never build.  That is a real knee-slapper.

By simple comparison, an asymmetric spinnaker is the better wing, but its harder to gybe (not counting spinnaker pole, which is eliminated in the AWES concept). A bi-axially symmetric SS power kite should combine the best of both wings, and kPower's plucky little Peter Lynn SS power kite will follow in the crude spinnaker design pipeline. The sketches will explain better just how handy this rig will be.
*** You read it here first: "will be"...  when should we check back?

"Symmetric spinnakers will also be ideal for Aerotecture experiments, but that's another app.
daveS"
*** We'll hold our breath...  again...  Anyone taking notes?  :)


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18722 From: Andrew K Date: 8/17/2015
Subject: Re: Inflatable tower - farfetched?
I'm skeptical to put it mildly.

Consider that the space shuttle weighs 78,000 kg (85 tons) empty and
lands at 300 km/hr (200 mph).
Now try and land on a 3 km long runway balanced on the top of a 20 km
inflatable tower?

The usual red flags are there, select an unusual unproven technology
(like an inflatable tower) and don't worry about fundamental physics
phenomena.
If inflatable towers were the way to go for tall permanent structures
perhaps radio towers would be built that way?
Inflatables are wonderful for quick installation and complex shapes.
They are not so good for highly stressed long lifetime structures.
Also the idea that the guy wire function will be fulfilled by
flywheels reveals a lack of understanding of the underlying physics.
While it's true that satellites use flywheels to position themselves
it's important to understand that flywheels only supply rotation, for
translation you need rockets.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's not practical.

Andrew in Ann Arbor
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18723 From: Rod Read Date: 8/18/2015
Subject: AWES forum: perceived lazy moderation
An apology,
As one of the Yahoo AWES forum moderation team,
I'm saddened that my tolerant approach to moderation has been questioned.
Rest assured, your email in-boxes will be quieter now that two protagonists have been put on moderation approval.

Primary school remedial class teachers don't have to put up with this nonsense.

Present reasonable AWES discussions, if you have one, now thanks.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18726 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Publish in AWES forum

Essays on kite energy systems are invited to be published in the AWES forum. Kite systems include the anchor system, the tethering system, and the wing system. Practical applications of kite systems are invited to be specified, studied, discussed, analyzed, compared with other systems. Drawings, photographs, and videos are welcome.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18727 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

RAD embraces both popular and less popular AWES R&D. 


Imaginary scenario:  

A remote village in Cuba may know a visionary kite-energy researcher bent on using local winds to operate sewing machines by using energy taken from flygen tumbling wings set on traverse-to-wind arch kite. She is determined to use dried epoxy-enhanced locally available plant leaves to form the tumbling-wing elements. 


Little lessons accumulated during the R&D effort may be communicated with others in the AirborneWindEnergy forum. Others in the world might be inspired to some twist on her explorations in order to advance some other corner of airborne wind energy, perhaps even more popular strands of kite-energy systems.  Her niche interest and perhaps less popular methods are pointedly invited to be shared and explored within our forum. 


And the synergy may be a two-way exchange. Study of popular AWES matters may inspire remote niche applications; those stories may make for memorable posted messages.   This forum aims to welcome minor and major kite-energy system explorations, popular and less popular methods, newbie and matured questions and answers.  An open clever senior scientist may see in a newbie remarks some things novel to our body of ways and means.  Rehearsing physics, design, and engineering matters may be opportunity for seeing a kite-energy challenge in fresh ways; helping even one researcher along his or her way may seed a growth that will later flower to effect severe grand kite-energy solutions for humans.


So,  consider bringing niche less popular kite-energy matters out into the open forum. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18728 From: Rod Read Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

In a not very scientific way, I have evaluated my own rating of various AWE schemes.
The result (a scoring matrix) was posted today on Windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Spolier alert
I came first
Doug came second
Makani got the wooden spoon

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18729 From: Rod Read Date: 8/19/2015
Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D
Attachments :

    Attached for your AWES comparison ease

      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/19/2015
    Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D
    What a great seed, Rod! Congratulations. Your exampling lead for such a tool should spawn further efforts. As such tools mature with refined data input and categories, etc., we may be in for a very helpful tool set. Nice that Daisy wins on the first round! I bet you have formed a spur that will provide a wide flowering showing as time roles forward. Down the time line will be standardized ways of getting data for matrix parameters. And comprehensive inclusion of more methods and projects will be the fare. Thanks for your evident work and enthusiasm! Fine leadership. Anticipate competition on getting the lowest score!
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18731 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D
    Notice to investors and researchers:
    The matrix tool presented gives a suggested structure of how AWES might be presented in some kind of comparative manner. The actual entries in the first presentation are far from being comprehensive. The set of parameters chosen have not been given consensus from the AWES scientific community. There has not been standard ways of arriving at measures. The fine author introduced the tool with "In a not very scientific way, I have evaluated my own rating of various AWE schemes."  Any investor would be wise to recognize that the first-level presentation holds numbers produced and parameter definitions that derive from "not very scientific way" by a respected researcher who has a known and accepted conflict of interest; the involved scoring of his own project is an inescapable format item; ultimately third-party evaluation would become the standard to effect a useful scoring matrix. There has not been open comparative standardized testing of two or more AWES by third parties. Many mega-scale concepts are not addressed in the first edition of the matrix.  The scoring matrix author came up with number entries out of his "noggin" in order to present the concept of the scoring matrix; such number-production quality that should inform investment; we have a very long ways to go before a scoring matrix would show comparative data fit for down selecting and investing. 

    So, my personal conclusion about the fine scoring matrix format introduced by Rod Read of Windswept and Interesting: 
    1. Great introduction. 
    2. The content does not represent the broad options of AWES. Many methods are not named. 
    3. The parameters selected are not defined with scientific consensus.  Let the effort suggest placeholding for future parameters that one day are expected to be be well defined and standardized.
    4. The numbers came out of the the matrix designer's "noggin".  The hope for the future is that the numbers will arrive from third-party testing of machines. 
    5. The content and apparent results of the presentation cannot be wisely used for investing. But the format and idea of a scoring matrix is worthy of forwarding positively.    

    AWE is in a childhood status; AWE's maturity will find various scoring matrices. And open competitive standardized testing will eventually be designed and used to produce numbers for parameters. 

    All such said, it is hoped that investors will do their best to find researchers to back. 

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18732 From: Rod Read Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: Popular and Less Popular AWES R&D

    Well said Joe,
    I'd like to emphasise the open source nature of the file. If anyone wants to use it for their own, please feel free and remember to keep it open. If you need the original file.. Let me know.
    I have a heap more plans could be added to the matrix.
    AWES scoring matrices are currently quite rare. It would definitely be a worthwhile endeavour creating a comparison based in more rigorously presented evidence instead of conjecture.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18733 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfredo

    Alfredo Criado

    An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft       

    Publication numberEP2629166 A1
    Publication typeApplication
    Application numberEP20120382052
    Publication dateAug 21, 2013
    Filing dateFeb 17, 2012
    Priority dateFeb 17, 2012
    Also published asUS8954206US20140129056
    InventorsAlfredo Criado
    ApplicantThe Boeing Company
    Export CitationBiBTeXEndNoteRefMan
    External Links: EspacenetEP Register



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr

    Examiner cited: 

    PATENT CITATIONS
    Cited PatentFiling datePublication dateApplicantTitle
    DE19828720A1 *Jun 29, 1998Dec 30, 1999Otto Gerd AlbrechtGlider with auxiliary propulsion and electrical motor unit
    DE102009050522A1 *Oct 23, 2009May 12, 2011Eads Deutschland GmbhLocalization system for use in e.g. glider for finding local thermal area in flight strategy utilized in military area to increase flying altitude, has evaluation unit determining position of local prevailed thermal areas
    DE102011103572A1 *May 30, 2011Dec 8, 2011Eugen GähwilerGlider for motorized flight and gliding, comprises rechargeable direct current voltage source, and propeller fastened at shaft, where two electromotors are provided, which are coupled with shaft
    US7431243 *Mar 23, 2006Oct 7, 2008The United States Of America As Represented By The Administrator Of The National Aeronautics And Space AdministrationGuidance and control for an autonomous soaring UAV
    US20100230968 *
    Sep 16, 2010Dimitri ChernyshovTethered glider system for power generation


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Atmospheric electrical generator by Mark Ellery Ogram

    Atmospheric electrical generator  
    US 7855476 B2    Mark Ellery Ogram



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18736 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Edward Jones
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18737 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr
    Its seems that Gabor's prior art anticipated the core of this patent's inventive claim and quite possible that Boeing would recognize Gabor's contribution, as modern best-practice business ethics. Hats off to Gabor for getting third-party expert confirmation, that Boeing itself finds the IFO a credible AWES concept.



    On Thursday, August 20, 2015 4:38 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Examiner cited: 
    PATENT CITATIONS
    Cited PatentFiling datePublication dateApplicantTitle
    DE19828720A1 *Jun 29, 1998Dec 30, 1999Otto Gerd AlbrechtGlider with auxiliary propulsion and electrical motor unit
    DE102009050522A1 *Oct 23, 2009May 12, 2011Eads Deutschland GmbhLocalization system for use in e.g. glider for finding local thermal area in flight strategy utilized in military area to increase flying altitude, has evaluation unit determining position of local prevailed thermal areas
    DE102011103572A1 *May 30, 2011Dec 8, 2011Eugen GähwilerGlider for motorized flight and gliding, comprises rechargeable direct current voltage source, and propeller fastened at shaft, where two electromotors are provided, which are coupled with shaft
    US7431243 *Mar 23, 2006Oct 7, 2008The United States Of America As Represented By The Administrator Of The National Aeronautics And Space AdministrationGuidance and control for an autonomous soaring UAV
    US20100230968 *
    Sep 16, 2010Dimitri ChernyshovTethered glider system for power generation



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18738 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: Edward Jones
    A specific problem with this concept is how sensitive conductive thin-films are to electrical corona degradation effects, particularly if the membranes are also required to hold lifting gas. Little pin-holes form in conventional balloon Mylar (alu-metallized), and added thickness to reduce progressive gas loss rate would badly reduce static lift for a given skin area. It is a worthy science-class idea to test for data and surprise lessons, but not too promising on its face.



    On Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:23 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" wrote:


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: atmospheric thermal energy conversion by Jens O. Sorensen

    Patent US4391099 - Atmospheric thermal energy conversion utilizing inflatable pressurized rising conduit


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18740 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Dong Ho Kim of Los Angeles, California

    Comment: Consider using kite systems for high altitude constructions. We have been growing aerotecture in many ways.  

    ==================

    High altitude construction with a buoyant device  
    US 20040206086 A1

    Dong Ho Kim


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Blogger suggests structure

    Comment: Explore several AWES spaces when meditating over this blogger's structure suggestions:


    energy | nvireuk

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18742 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Methods of setting arch kite anchors in face of a barrier

    Have a need to fly an AWES that uses an arch kite where there is a challenge barrier to negotiate in order to set a far anchor of the arch kite.  Consider any scale of operation.  Consider various arch kites: down-winding, cross-winding, oblique-winding.


    How to get the far anchor set?   

    Provide description of various barriers.

    Solution methods? Aim for some kite-system solutions, but also consider other solution methods to set anchor and thus overcoming the challenge barrier.

    ===================================

    Teasing start: Historic Niagara Falls contest.

    ===================================

    Sample barrier:  One does not want a team member to cross over a river, but one wants the far anchor of the arch kite of the AWES to be on the far side of the river.


    Sample solution: Fix the arch kite load line to a stone; toss the stone to the other side of the river. Then fix the close-side anchor; then send up wing elements on the load line.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18743 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 8/20/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfre
    Hi All,

    and thank you DaveS and JoeF.  Have you any idea how to convince Boeing? Or rather what to do anyway?

    Best,  Gabor



    On 2015-08-21 03:08, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] wrote:

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18744 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr
    We can try to contact Alfredo Criado in a friendly supportive way, and see how to move forward.
    ~ Dave S.
     
    On Thursday, August 20, 2015 11:58 PM, "Gabor Dobos dobosg001@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" wrote:  
    Hi All,
    and thank you DaveS and JoeF.  Have you any idea how to convince Boeing? Or rather what to do anyway? 
    Best,  Gabor

         

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18745 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: LAGI, source of AWE meditations
    Possible generation of meditations for AWE RAD, explore the portfolios: 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18746 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Campos Yamila Zynda Aiub Architects

    Meditation over their several wing conceptions and installations with AWE in mind is the topic of this post. 

    Project:  Choreographies in the Sky
    and other conceptions

    See and study: 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18747 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Wind Wheel (conception, part of LAGI portfolio)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18748 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Kited Sky Nets
    Kited Sky Nets
    This topic is dedicated to forwarding practical uses of kite-system-held nets or kited nets. 
    The orientation of the held nets may be horizontal, vertical, or oblique. 
    The nets may be functional in various ways. 

    Practical works from the use of kited nets: open for creativity. 
    Energy production, barrage, barrier, catching, weather modification, air cleaning, communication, recreation, entertainment, aerostructure, fishing, ocean cleaning, sky-set paraglider PDMC mitigation, aircraft landing nets, air-treatments, AWES mesh foundations, insect control, fog-water collecting, base for arch kites and dome kites, etc.,  are game.   We have had some notes scattered in forum about nets in the sky. Challenges? Safety? Manufacturing? 

    Trials, papers, essays, drawings, conceptions, tips, findings, safety,etc. are welcome net facets to the topic.   History of kited nets is welcome. Kited-net patents?  Projects? Conceptions? 

     =====================================

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18749 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: KiteGen photos

    Can these giant, high-altitude kites power the world?

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18750 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: KiteGen Venture

    This topic thread is intended to discuss and explore the web site

    KiteGenVenture

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18751 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: AWES Demos at WSIKF2015
    On Monday, the first day of the kite super-festival here on the US NW Coast, KiteSat flew for several hours and attracted lots of curiosity. The current testing phase is to charge the unit by flying, then discharge the 3 LEDs, in cycles, which produces a rough one-to-one ratio of flying-time and discharge up to about eight hours. The small bugs in the design seem to have been worked out, and the unit has been working flawlessly for some weeks now. A sled kite with a bucket-drogue carry-bag has been selected for the product, since the KiteSat unit fits nicely in the bag; commercial packaging problem solved.

    On Tuesday, the ground-station control bar based on two sand-anchors was tested again with a 4.5m2 NASA Power Wing. An 8m2 KiteShip OL had dragged the anchors two days before, so the anchors were set deeper, and the smaller kite reduced power. Nevertheless, the NPW busted a 500-lb Spectra line within seconds (but the anchors did not drag). The linebreak was like a small pistol shot that caused many to look up and notice the collapsed NPW slowly coming down. Next time the lines will be 1000-lb Purple Plasma. Despite the short tests, good control and the comfort of the spreader tube were confirmed.

    On Wednesday, a 2m2 Pansh Trainer foil was flown with a PTO hung with a large inflated buoy on a bungee. Some unease was caused by the violent tossing and surging mass in the sky, but there was no serious objective danger. The elastic was shown to be an effective solution to shocks disturbing the kite caused by jerking payloads on low-stretch tethers. The PTO demo was a compliment to the anchored ground station demo the day before, in that both ideas are intended to be integrated in a single final design suited for endless work applications.

    Yesterday (Thursday), began with low wind; no novel demo was rigged and flown, but social networking went on. Maybe today a large tarp will be set in the sand around its margin to create a ram-air fall cushion for kite man-lifting safety. If it works as intended, it should be safe to fall on the cushion from an adjacent park structure. Depending on the available flyers, crowd issues, congestion on the main kite field, and so on, the climax to the week of demos will be to fly an iso-dome lifted by kPower's six 22m2 Peter Lynn pilot-lifters, as operational testing for Aerotecture. There will be a careful process of safety validation, and any human flight will occur only at the waning festival, or just after; no rush. Will report after the Festival as to how the big kite demos turned out.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18752 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr
    Gabor lives!  :)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18753 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Re: Blogger suggests structure
    If this vacuum-filed-tube-floating-structure idea could fly, then the age-old idea of blimps "containing" a vacuum for buoyancy could also be made using a similar technique.  Then no worry about flammable gas, small-molecule-gas leaking, etc.  Leaks could be sealed from the outside, since pressure pushes in.  They should start with a small blimp and see if that can be made to work before worrying about such larger structures, in my opinion.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18754 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Re: An unmanned aerial vehicle harvesting energy in updraft by Alfr
    Congratulations on being copied, Gabor.  You were there first.  Perhaps a scale model should be built and tested to see how much energy it can bring home.
    I think it was Paul Gipe who pointed out the dismal record of companies like Boeing in wind energy.
    I think it was they who had designed wind turbines with aluminum blades built like airplane wings(?), way back in the day.  Just heard about that recently - I have no references to it.  The rumor-mill or fact?  Not sure.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18755 From: dougselsam Date: 8/21/2015
    Subject: Re: LAGI, source of AWE meditations
    That is an amazing amount of interesting designs.
    Could take days to just look at them all!
    I like the one called "flower power".