Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 18500 to 18550 Page 264 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18500 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Open Invitation to Participate in "kPlan"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18501 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Mean Field Theories in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18502 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Proposal for a DCS editorial

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18503 From: dougselsam Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18504 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Valved-Intake Parafoil Pilot-Lifter

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18505 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18506 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18508 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18509 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Kwok Fai Chan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18510 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18511 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Tether as concern for land and space use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18512 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Tether as concern for land and space use

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18513 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Mario Garcia-Sanz honored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18514 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Mario Garcia-Sanz honored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18515 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: AWEC's website back up; rumored reboot of the Org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18516 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/27/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18517 From: dave santos Date: 7/27/2015
Subject: kPower Early-Equity Offering

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18518 From: dave santos Date: 7/27/2015
Subject: More Irish Naval Ship Kite details (SkySails connection, test result

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18519 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2015
Subject: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18520 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18521 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18522 From: Rod Read Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18523 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18524 From: Rod Read Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18525 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18526 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Rotating Reeling in AWEC2015

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18527 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18528 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18529 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: KiteMill at SV conference this Nov.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18530 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18531 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18532 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18533 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18534 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18535 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18536 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18537 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Soft Turbine Rim-Drive AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18538 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18539 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18540 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18541 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18542 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18543 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18544 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18545 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18546 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18547 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18548 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18549 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18550 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18500 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Open Invitation to Participate in "kPlan"
Over the years AWES Forum posts outlined a plan loosely referred to as the "Fraunhofer Plan", whereby leading AWES developers would cooperatively compete in an AE fly-off, simulation, and scoring-matrix vetting process. Even "losers" would win by funded participation and an option to join in the winning solutions. Fraunhofer USA has stated positive intent to participate as a neutral third-party referee of an AWES vetting process. kPower (particularly Ed Sapir) has continued to develop the plan in spreadsheets (who, what, where, when, why, how). We are now calling the effort "kPlan", as a more generic title; but "Fraunhofer Plan" remains understood as the same plan.

This is an Open Call to participate in kPlan for all those who have not yet been invited directly. The only requirement is to bring some value to the effort, as judged by open peer-review processes. The current timeline is to present kPlan in ready-to-fund form at the next world conference, which may be in Seattle, in order to integrate with Bill Gates's stated interest in AWE and potentially tap into the billion-and-a-half USD that he has pledged for "energy miracles" R&D. A lot of help is still needed up-front to make this plan work. Contact Ed Sapir at edoishi@yahoo.com to participate. kPlan is part of the Open-AWE_IP-Pool.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18501 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Mean Field Theories in AWE
Here is Cristina's chapter in the Springer AWE book referenced as representative of a mean-field approach to the Upper Wind resource for AWE-


-----------------------
Doug,

Please stay on-topic with positive contributions to state of the art AWE knowledge, like everyone else. I will continue to offer new topics like this one (Mean Field Theories in AWE). You can't stop such topics from mere personal pique, nor cause flame-wars. Instead, you end up moderated, time after time, on multiple forums.

If you have a technical defense of Makani critique, please share it. In finding fault with the high-risk high-complexity jumbo composite low-altitude aerobatic E-VTOL flygen AWES concept space, I take special care to recognize the hard work of the rank-and-file engineers. Lets agree that Makani has great value to the world, even if it only invalidates its architectural down-select,  

daveS



On Saturday, July 25, 2015 7:11 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Hey daveS it is you who should stay on topic and stop "crapping". If you read back what you write it reads like a disturbed person on steroids.  How can you combine so many false insinuations and insults into each sentence?  Nobody has the time to dissect your endless nonsense.  I talk facts and wind energy - what works and what doesn't, while you're endlessly mired in attempts at name-calling and emotional maneuvering, all based on strings of false statements.  Why?  I think it is YOU who should stay on topic.  And if you have nothing to say on a topic, it is OK for you to simply not comment.  We all see you endlessly trying to debunk Makani.  It's OK for you to discuss what you think are salient facts about an approach, just not anyone else, right?  Get a life.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18502 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Proposal for a DCS editorial
The main reason, in my view, that this Forum has endured and progressed, is Joe Faust. The main effect of the DS/DS dynamic has been to drive many fine folks into private conversations. At least there has been no technical censorship by tolerating a high level of nonsense and rebuttals. SnapScan is right about the high noise-to-signal ratio on this Forum, but the signal is here, and his name is JoeF



On Saturday, July 25, 2015 8:25 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
The present AWE forum looks as the long-lasting only one. The main reason is "seeing the realization of AWES step by step". Maybe another reason is the highly literary and funny quality of Doug's posts as DCS analysis. Another reason is also DS/DS putting some animation that other forums rightly does not want due to needed moderation (keeping focus on topic).
So a DCS column could be open, serving as release, that beside technical topics.

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18503 From: dougselsam Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
Dave sorry I can't respond to your disjointed lack of understanding and mischaracterizations anymore.  I think you should just go back to sleep.  No you are not a genius and pretty much nothing you say is ever even true, much less a breakthrough.  I have never seen anyone combine so many lies into every sentence - it is impossible to dissect, and still have time to get anything else done, and would simply take all day every day.  Have fun.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18504 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Valved-Intake Parafoil Pilot-Lifter
An ongoing trend in parafoil design is to replace the original wide-open ram-air cells with small valved openings, especially for water-kites, but also for a cleaner more aerodynamic wing less prone to collapse. This parafoil power-kite trend has not yet (as far as is known here) reached the pilot-lifter public design space before this post (a few LTA kytoon-parafoil pilot-lifter experiments eliminated intakes altogether).

kPower plans to modify and test current pilot-lifter parafoils as valved-intake designs, in the hope of advancing the current state-of-the-art. 

Open-AWE_IP-Pool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18505 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
Doug,

If nothing else, an early demonstration of a synergistic wind storage solution might help a struggling experimental turbine start-up to stay in the R&D game, to perhaps transition to whatever WECS basis works best, including maybe AWE. 

Lets celebrate all the folks who try to come up with novel wind turbines, no matter how long the odds, including your ST case. Major solutions to AWE are the combined work of many brilliant developers. My own work is mostly just recombination of old kiting and sailing rigging prior art, for AWES testing and optimization, with due gratitude to many teachers. 

In that spirit, the liquid-air IFO idea is very high on the scale of cool new wind tech ideas. Thanks for respecting Gabor's take on what this topic was really about. 

Fare-thee-well,

daveS



On Saturday, July 25, 2015 7:19 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Dave sorry I can't respond to your disjointed lack of understanding and mischaracterizations anymore.  I think you should just go back to sleep.  No you are not a genius and pretty much nothing you say is ever even true, much less a breakthrough.  I have never seen anyone combine so many lies into every sentence - it is impossible to dissect, and still have time to get anything else done, and would simply take all day every day.  Have fun.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18506 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment
kPower is working out rigging solutions for stacking 22m2 PL pilot-lifters, for reduced risk of fouling the tail-kill line. Before modifying full-scale kites, two small parafoils were provided by Wind World Kites (Ron Welty), to rapidly test rigging changes. The two foils were stacked roughly one length apart, by coaxial side bridling. It may be that the simplest distinction of what is a kite-train, and what is a kite-stack is the lack or presence of shared bridles rather than spacing distinctions. 

It was already known that two identical kites spaced close to their fundamental harmonic length would dance in strong interaction, so damping by added tail(s) was planned. in light wind, the two stacked kites were first flown tailless "to see what happens". Immediately both kites danced (Dutch rolled) in opposed phase, with unexpected strong pumping felt on the line. The tailless dancing pair tended to yaw down by themselves in turbulence, so a tail drogue was added to the upper kite, and then the pair flew stably, but still pumping hard, at about 45 degrees line angle. 

Parallel common bridling between the kites acted as a torsion spring (promoting spring-mass oscillation), and constructive wake entrainment effects seemed evident. The experiment met expectations that soft-stacks and soft-trains are feasible, but a less "resonant" tuning and/or damping remains be found to meet the original design goals.

Open-AWE_IP-Pool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18508 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment

Fertile direction, Dave S. !

Consider:

1. Have a stable train; then modify that train with a "joker" wing that has not else to do, but to disturb the train's peace. Watch then the pumping at ground.


2. Fine tune a stable stack with even separations; then modify the stack away from that stable state by judicious uneven separations and bridle tweaks. Look for disturbing global harmonics that may set up ground pumping.


Open-AWE_IP-Pool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18509 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Kwok Fai Chan

Patent US9030038 - Tethered airborne wind power generator system

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18510 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: New pumping mode observed in parafoil soft-stack experiment
Patent US4634080 - Parafoil vertical lift mechanism

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18511 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Tether as concern for land and space use

See "Permanent Permission" from Kitemill presentation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18512 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Tether as concern for land and space use
Attachments :

    Sorry for my precedent message. Pictures are now on joined file.

    "Permanent Permission" is from Kitemill presentation Kitemill, a Driver of Second-Generation Wind Energy!   

    and shows a cylindrical volume.

    "Land and Space used" I presented in 2013 for http://www.awec2013.de/pdfs/AWEC_2013_BoA.pdf  shows also a cylindrical volume.


    Maximisation of such a volume cannot be reached with a single small wing flying "crosswind" at the end of a single long tether.


    PierreB

    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18513 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/26/2015
    Subject: Re: Mario Garcia-Sanz honored
    Patent US20140246862 - Airborne wind energy system

     

    Filing date Sep 28, 2012
    Priority date Sep 28, 201
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18514 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2015
    Subject: Re: Mario Garcia-Sanz honored
    Welcoming the entry of Case-Western-Reserve University into the AWE R&D community, via Prof. Garcia-Sanz. The AWES patented is a sub-optimal first-order approximation (LTA-dependent non-crosswind turbine), but everyone has to start somewhere in the concept-space, and no one has yet perfected AWES design-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18515 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2015
    Subject: AWEC's website back up; rumored reboot of the Org
    Since 2010, the US CA c6 org, AWEC, has been ongoing source of mystery, by its secretive pay-to-play modus operandi. It was widely presumed that when Makani resigned its flagship membership followed by a lapsed website, that the story was finished. AWEC's last known presidents demurred that AWEC declined due to distance and incompatibility between the American-EU members.

    A credibly-sourced rumor circulated at AWEC2015 (TUDelft conference last month) that AWEC was restructuring as a North American mirror to EU's HWN500, with a more open academically-oriented culture; which would be welcomed. This buzz may correlate with the anomalous rebirth of the AWEC website but, as usual, there is no public information. Fresh developments from this circle, if any, are still insider-driven (*sigh*).

    The website content is frozen in 2010 still, but perhaps big changes are pending, and restoring the server came first-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18516 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/27/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    Doug,

    as I see it, you are the most productive contributor of that forum. You write, write, and write... It seems that writing consumes all of your time, therefore you have evidently no time to read the statements of your interlocutor. Instead,  you write down not only your personal opinion, but also that of the other party. That's a very comfortable way to debate. For example:

    On 2015-07-25 03:09, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] wrote:

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18517 From: dave santos Date: 7/27/2015
    Subject: kPower Early-Equity Offering
    This is a reminder that kPower of Austin, Texas, is inviting early founding-equity participation to anyone bringing real value to the Open-AWE sector. Its an exciting time as more top capital investors line up to take positions in AWE (Bill gates most recently). kPower's current plan aims to attract mid-cap investment for a scaled-up cross-architectural validation-testing program, as the standing strategic hurdle to the emerging industry. 

    If you have a start-up venture or are a professional in AWE, equity partnership with kPower allows you to keep your IP and company ownership, by simple non-exclusive cooperative participation, but still benefit from major investment. Your participation can take the form of Open-AWE_IP-Cloud licensing, engineering or business services sweat-equity, and/or shared angel-funding. 

    kPower is well-positioned across the Low-Complexity AWES R&D sector and is newly re-structured for growth. We have a great line-up of pioneering AWE talent already going, but more early partners with distinguished track-records and unique capabilities are needed, to further aggregate critical-mass. 

    Please help. Contact Ed Sapir directly (edoishi@yahoo.com) to join in.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18518 From: dave santos Date: 7/27/2015
    Subject: More Irish Naval Ship Kite details (SkySails connection, test result

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18519 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2015
    Subject: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web
    Many single line lifters tend to over steer themselves , (push themselves over, off the side of the wind window)
    either by imbalance in bridling or when out of their wind range.

    Can this lifted imbalance be remedied with the sort of -ve lift kite Joe F suggests?

    A windsock, inward web, or x-spar tail has no lift to guide it. it's nose is bridled (often at a swivel) So it looks to windward (yaw) it doesn't maintain pitch. pitch would help if we wanted to get some power from it to steer the kite.

    I haven't tried this yet and I don't have the kit with me at the moment if someone else wants to... So this is speculation, However...
    A 3 point bridling from the front ring of a windsock slung under the lifter looks promising. top 2 bridles each to one of the two steering bridles of the lift kite. The lower windsock bridle to low down on the lift line, well below the lifter bridle.

    This configuration should be able to support by tension, an inward web of 3 triangle sails... The bridles supporting the leading edges of the triangles , the sail roots all sewn together.  (maybe such as the star kite under a lifter suggested a few days ago by Dave S) However sewing for a -ve lift offset will probably help as

    Whichever steering line is higher up on the lift kite should now get the majority of pull from the windsock web rig... thus tending to steer the kite to zenith.

    (Must have been tried by lift kite developers before... But thought this must be worth asking...)
    cc ip open awes pool    otherwise.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18520 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Cosine cube law

    Multiple Wing Systems – an Alternative to Upscaling?

    Where cosine cubed of tether angle is added in Loyd's formula. There are less loss by cosine when tether angle is low regarding ground.


    By the same http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yue_Wang33/publication/264897262_Power_Curve_Based_Online_Condition_Monitoring_for_Wind_Turbines/links/53f4df5b0cf2888a74912b6a.pdf indicates in "5. Yaw misalignment case study" :


    "According to the cos cubed law a yaw error of 20


    degree, which is highly unlikely under acceptable


    turbine yaw control, will lead to a significant power


    deficit of 17%."


    For 45 degrees of elevation angle, there are 65% losses, i.e. 35% remaining, 

    For 30 degrees of elevation angle, there are 35% losses, i.e. 65% remaining.

    So are concerned: wind turbine (yaw misalignment) but also SuperTurbine(tm) ; crosswind kites; autogyro-like, Daisy, Parotor...

    So penalization by cosine cube law is huge when elevation angle is above 30°.


    PierreB

    Rotating Reeling



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18521 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

    So a train of rotors is between two problems.

    • As rotors are little tilted, elevation angle of tether being high: the stack of rotors is not a problem but there are severe losses by cosine cube law.
    • As rotors are highly tilted, elevation angle of tether being low: there are not high losses by cosine cube law, but the stack of rotors is a problem due to needed long ropes between rotors to avoid wind shades. 

    A reason furthermore which makes me prefer a single rotor.


    PierreB

    Rotating Reeling
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18522 From: Rod Read Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law
    Between two problems sounds like the normal place to be in AWE.

    Consider also in a stack that each successively higher ring acts a bit like a shroud (Kite as shroud for a farm method was also presented at AWEC2015)
    Bringing stronger wind back into the wake of the upwind kite.
    I find a good test on wake field of soft kites is to fly a 4 line single skin behind, around, over and under a single skin lifter.
    You quickly learn where they interfere with each others flow... ripples, folds, crashes (you can even yse the 4 line to nudge launch or flow deflect down to fill launch the lifter after crashing it)
    I couldn't see any obvious evidence that the upper ring drive kites were suffering shadow when I stacked my rings... I'll get more of the test video up soon...
    As for a single ring launch, a larger (soft?) ring surely becomes progressively harder to launch. Does much of the lower ring remain in ground affected wind shear when spinning.  Also with rotating reeling, the kites going from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock ... are those reeling lines are shortening when the kites are pulling at their hardest?
    The scheme where rings array linearly up lines allows for the top lines to be netted together thus densely filling the available space with generation surface whatever mass direction the wind takes. How this copes with variance in the field will depend on how tense and close the lift lines are compared to the dimensions of generation surface being lifted.

    between about 4 problems but computable and provable given the right engineering team and test facility.
    as preferred to me my sewing machine and croft.


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18523 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

    "...are those reeling lines are shortening when the kites are pulling at their hardest?"


    No, due to hangers tied in the central rope allowing angle of reference of Parotor, so natural limits of reeling-out of peripheral lines going upwind.


    PierreB

     

    Rotating Reeling


    FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant  

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18524 From: Rod Read Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law
    I was also wrong as the apparent wind over the up-going 1/4 blades going into wind, will be higher than that over the down turning.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18525 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

    This time it is right. Aerodynamic concerns must be also considered: as generators are settled in winches, as the conversion is on upwind part, the center of pressure is not more in the center of parachute as hub, but is moved towards the upwind side; on the other hand such a moving of center of pressure is compensated by the wing going also upwind and generating more pressure. But deeper analysis and active control on hangers of soft power blades will be required for a large unity.


    PierreB

    FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant 

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18526 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Rotating Reeling in AWEC2015
    Aerodynamic concerns must be also considered: as generators are settled in winches, as the conversion is on upwind part, the center of pressure is not more in the center of parachute as hub, but is moved towards the upwind side; on the other hand such a moving of center of pressure is compensated by the wing going also upwind and generating more pressure. But deeper analysis and active control on hangers of soft power blades will be required for a large unity.


    PierreB

    FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant 

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18527 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    OK fair enough Gabor, I was going from memory of watching your talk, a few weeks ago, and evidently I didn't watch it enough times to get it right, going by your response.  I did not mean to create a straw-man argument - I do not approve of straw-man arguments, so sorry about that.  I agree, there are way too many straw-man arguments going on around here.  For every time I dare to post at all, I'm guaranteed at least a dozen straw-man arguments in response, often with many combined into a single sentence.  In general, I think your idea is interesting, at least to the point where it has features worth discussing, looking at the pros and cons, not necessarily debating or arguing per se.  Beyond that, I have not posted in many weeks (months?) and I don't really spend TOO much time at it, I just type fast, that's all.  It's always interesting to scan this site and see if there is anyone who has any hope of making any progress.
    :)
    Doug
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18528 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web
    Yes, this is a better way to rig tails, if I understand the word-picture. In effect the tail's V-bridle converted to a Y-bridle with a vertical line back to the kites main bridle-point now pulls down on the "brake line(s)" on the up-wind side, with amplified correction force.

    A problem is if the kite "kick-turns" too fast, its rotational inertia and low turn-drag can over-correct, so the tail needs to damp the turn as well as actuate it, according to how sensitive the kite is to turning. Variable wind speeds are a common complication, since experimental rigs often only work in narrow ranges, but a wide wind-range is wanted.

    This seems like a promising path to convert a power-kite to a pilot lifter, which is a surprisingly tricky problem, since the two design modes are so opposed in dynamics. Most of the problem is complex tunings of mass-balance and aerodamping, not just a simple turn correction.



    On Monday, July 27, 2015 11:48 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Many single line lifters tend to over steer themselves , (push themselves over, off the side of the wind window)
    either by imbalance in bridling or when out of their wind range.

    Can this lifted imbalance be remedied with the sort of -ve lift kite Joe F suggests?

    A windsock, inward web, or x-spar tail has no lift to guide it. it's nose is bridled (often at a swivel) So it looks to windward (yaw) it doesn't maintain pitch. pitch would help if we wanted to get some power from it to steer the kite.

    I haven't tried this yet and I don't have the kit with me at the moment if someone else wants to... So this is speculation, However...
    A 3 point bridling from the front ring of a windsock slung under the lifter looks promising. top 2 bridles each to one of the two steering bridles of the lift kite. The lower windsock bridle to low down on the lift line, well below the lifter bridle.

    This configuration should be able to support by tension, an inward web of 3 triangle sails... The bridles supporting the leading edges of the triangles , the sail roots all sewn together.  (maybe such as the star kite under a lifter suggested a few days ago by Dave S) However sewing for a -ve lift offset will probably help as

    Whichever steering line is higher up on the lift kite should now get the majority of pull from the windsock web rig... thus tending to steer the kite to zenith.

    (Must have been tried by lift kite developers before... But thought this must be worth asking...)
    cc ip open awes pool    otherwise.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18529 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: KiteMill at SV conference this Nov.
    Upstart KiteMill is on the move, having secured a prime R&D airspace in its Norway hime, and inviting broad global collaboration. Now they are headed to Silicon Valley to share their vision-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18530 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    One must be specific to correct misquotes and fallacies. The straw-man AWE argument here was a misplaced focus on a rim-drive turbine. A new straw-man argument is the idea that there is little cause for hope on this Forum.

    The great hope in AWE is by the growing knowledge and experience of the leading practitioners. In the six years the Forum has existed, we have witnessed a roughly a ten-fold increase in shared knowledge, new players, and flight testing. Nowhere is hope for AWE more evident than on this Forum.

    Even Doug finds new hope in the IFO, not just his ST. Hope is growing on all fronts.



    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:43 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    OK fair enough Gabor, I was going from memory of watching your talk, a few weeks ago, and evidently I didn't watch it enough times to get it right, going by your response.  I did not mean to create a straw-man argument - I do not approve of straw-man arguments, so sorry about that.  I agree, there are way too many straw-man arguments going on around here.  For every time I dare to post at all, I'm guaranteed at least a dozen straw-man arguments in response, often with many combined into a single sentence.  In general, I think your idea is interesting, at least to the point where it has features worth discussing, looking at the pros and cons, not necessarily debating or arguing per se.  Beyond that, I have not posted in many weeks (months?) and I don't really spend TOO much time at it, I just type fast, that's all.  It's always interesting to scan this site and see if there is anyone who has any hope of making any progress.
    :)
    Doug
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18531 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law
    Moritz presumes a small kite on a long line, but overlooks arches that fill the sky, where the higher part creates precious lift while the lower part generates powerful drag forces. For such a large spread of sail, 45 deg is a rough average only, not a point-like location.



    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:25 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    This time it is right. Aerodynamic concerns must be also considered: as generators are settled in winches, as the conversion is on upwind part, the center of pressure is not more in the center of parachute as hub, but is moved towards the upwind side; on the other hand such a moving of center of pressure is compensated by the wing going also upwind and generating more pressure. But deeper analysis and active control on hangers of soft power blades will be required for a large unity.

    PierreB
     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18532 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law

    Cosine cube law works for power system as "crosswind" kite converter or conventional  wind turbine.


    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18533 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Cosine cube law
    The kite arch is the static special-case of a true crosswind kite geometry that naturally supports fast crosswind motion WECS, including HAWT rotors. This builds upon, rather than contradicts, Loyd's Crosswind Kite Power.



    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 11:26 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Cosine cube law works for power system as "crosswind" kite converter or conventional  wind turbine.

    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18534 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    DaveS said: "One must be specific to correct misquotes and fallacies."
    *** Dave U R the source of most misquotes and fallacies on this forum.  Examples:  Your announcement of an AWE-powered concert featuring major acts - now "delayed"... apparently without limit.  Same with your assertion regarding the BAT "deployed" near some remote village in Alaska - same excuse: "delayed".  That was last year.  So is it powering the remote village this year then?  Or was that "delay" also one more of your never-ending series of fallacies?  These are but two of the more blatant examples, out of hundreds, or even thousands.

    DaveS contiinues:  "The straw-man AWE argument here was a misplaced focus on a rim-drive turbine."
    *** No, actually that referred to one more of your fallacies, in this case your unrelenting past assertion that the Honeywell turbine was a good product.  The "straw-man argument" Gabor cited was the idea that he had promoted a single airplane that used batteries AND compressed/liquified air - he now says it is either batteries OR air, not both.  I am not agreeing or disagreeing.  His presentation talks about both, and I did not see where he specifed them as not being on the same "airplaine".  As usual, you have it wrong, and what you wrote IS one more of YOUR endless "straw-man arguments".  Every time you misquote someone and argue with it, that is a straw-man argument, which is what you do, over and over and over again.

    DaveS goes on: "A new straw-man argument is the idea that there is little cause for hope on this Forum."
    ***Either there is, or there isn't, but once again, you are attributing to me something I never said (creating yet another of your "straw-man arguments).  I said I monitor this group to see whether anyone out there is getting close to figuring out what they are doing.  Whether there is cause for hope, I leave to you.

    DaveS continues: "The great hope in AWE is by the growing knowledge and experience of the leading practitioners."
    *** Yes it is amazing to find an art where the "leading practitioners" come from a place of almost zero knowledge, and the "experts" are so defined as such only by themselves, and by nobody else.

    "In the six years the Forum has existed, we have witnessed a roughly a ten-fold increase in shared knowledge, new players, and flight testing."
    *** Yes it's taking them a long time to get to SuperTurbine(R), but you can see it slowly happening before your eyes.

    "Nowhere is hope for AWE more evident than on this Forum."
    *** This forum does a good job of scanning the news for AWE developments, or purported (wannabe) developments, which is why I monitor this forum.  This forum does not discriminate between facts and fantasies, real developments and "press-release science", but it does seem to scan the space fairly well as long as one reads it with a healthy skepticism, throwing out the high percentage of falsehoods presented.

    "Even Doug finds new hope in the IFO, not just his ST."
    *** I never said I saw a lot of hope in this idea as presented, but at least it is not one more kite-reeler spending a million-dollars to get a group pic of 20 smiling grad students.  It has enough science in it to at least offer material worthy of consideration and which could possibly lead to something useful, some day, in some form.

    "Hope is growing on all fronts."  *** Really?  Like, say, Magenn?  Is hope growing on the Magenn front?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18535 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    The idea of a "Magenn front" is a straw-man, as is the misplaced hope that the entire AWE world is tending toward massive ST drive-shafts, which cannot effectively reach upper-winds. AWE hope is on the real fronts.

    The IFO is a fine hope only to the most knowledgeable.

    As for the idea that music stars will someday perform at AWE powered events (as Wubbo also envisioned), only patience equals hope. We did manage a few plaintive electric guitar notes by kite power, and apologies for slowness. Don't lose hope yet.



    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:06 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    DaveS said: "One must be specific to correct misquotes and fallacies."
    *** Dave U R the source of most misquotes and fallacies on this forum.  Examples:  Your announcement of an AWE-powered concert featuring major acts - now "delayed"... apparently without limit.  Same with your assertion regarding the BAT "deployed" near some remote village in Alaska - same excuse: "delayed".  That was last year.  So is it powering the remote village this year then?  Or was that "delay" also one more of your never-ending series of fallacies?  These are but two of the more blatant examples, out of hundreds, or even thousands.

    DaveS contiinues:  "The straw-man AWE argument here was a misplaced focus on a rim-drive turbine."
    *** No, actually that referred to one more of your fallacies, in this case your unrelenting past assertion that the Honeywell turbine was a good product.  The "straw-man argument" Gabor cited was the idea that he had promoted a single airplane that used batteries AND compressed/liquified air - he now says it is either batteries OR air, not both.  I am not agreeing or disagreeing.  His presentation talks about both, and I did not see where he specifed them as not being on the same "airplaine".  As usual, you have it wrong, and what you wrote IS one more of YOUR endless "straw-man arguments".  Every time you misquote someone and argue with it, that is a straw-man argument, which is what you do, over and over and over again.

    DaveS goes on: "A new straw-man argument is the idea that there is little cause for hope on this Forum."
    ***Either there is, or there isn't, but once again, you are attributing to me something I never said (creating yet another of your "straw-man arguments).  I said I monitor this group to see whether anyone out there is getting close to figuring out what they are doing.  Whether there is cause for hope, I leave to you.

    DaveS continues: "The great hope in AWE is by the growing knowledge and experience of the leading practitioners."
    *** Yes it is amazing to find an art where the "leading practitioners" come from a place of almost zero knowledge, and the "experts" are so defined as such only by themselves, and by nobody else.

    "In the six years the Forum has existed, we have witnessed a roughly a ten-fold increase in shared knowledge, new players, and flight testing."
    *** Yes it's taking them a long time to get to SuperTurbine(R), but you can see it slowly happening before your eyes.

    "Nowhere is hope for AWE more evident than on this Forum."
    *** This forum does a good job of scanning the news for AWE developments, or purported (wannabe) developments, which is why I monitor this forum.  This forum does not discriminate between facts and fantasies, real developments and "press-release science", but it does seem to scan the space fairly well as long as one reads it with a healthy skepticism, throwing out the high percentage of falsehoods presented.

    "Even Doug finds new hope in the IFO, not just his ST."
    *** I never said I saw a lot of hope in this idea as presented, but at least it is not one more kite-reeler spending a million-dollars to get a group pic of 20 smiling grad students.  It has enough science in it to at least offer material worthy of consideration and which could possibly lead to something useful, some day, in some form.

    "Hope is growing on all fronts."  *** Really?  Like, say, Magenn?  Is hope growing on the Magenn front?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18536 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
    For lack of a better thermodynamicist to pose kite energy interpretations-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18537 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Soft Turbine Rim-Drive AWES
    Existing examples of AWES rim-drive thinking include Dr. Beaujean and Pierre's GW offshore AWES concepts. Beaujean's scheme calls for nested contra-rotating spin crowns rim-driving against each other, and Pierre's Wheelwind rim-drives against the sea surface.

    Advantages of rim drives in AWE include high-load-velocity at the rim, and high scalability of surface rim-driving (keeping PTO transmission mass on the surface). Inflated rim-drive rollers have been proposed as "soft gearing" on a vast scale (AWE_IP_Cloud).
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18538 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    DaveS said: "The idea of a "Magenn front" is a straw-man,"
    *** Dave, get a life - the whole world has more flavors than "straw-man".  I told you and everyone else that Magenn was a piece of doggie-doo the moment it reared it's misguided and deformed head. That didn't stop people from pouring millions of wasted dollars into it, nor did it stop the supposedly-knowledgeable people attempting AWE from using it as the main poster-child for "the industry" for years until (maybe) my opinion gained some traction (or it became obvious even to idiots that Magenn was indeed a joke) and, years later, it was finally seen as the joke it always was, finally even by the supposed " AWE experts", who were the last to know.

    "as is the misplaced hope that the entire AWE world is tending toward massive ST drive-shafts, which cannot effectively reach upper-winds."
    *** There you go again, with YOUR straw-man hope that somehow the driveshafts must be "massive".  You fixate on your own flawed (lack of) understanding of the big picture, and that is all you know.

    "AWE hope is on the real fronts." 
    *** Except you can't tell the difference between real and imaginary, between fruitful approaches and inadvisable nonsense - it's all the same to you.

    "The IFO is a fine hope only to the most knowledgeable."
    *** Which is, (of course) you, right?  Mmmmm Hmmm... (pardon my while I puke - hope I don't choke since I am laughing so hard!)  An RC model would be straightforward enough - a proof of concept would not require going all the way up to the jet stream.   Let's see what this concept can do!  Why wait?  Come on, let's see it, Mr. "Expert".  Maybe, if you are lucky, for $100,000 you can power a crystal radio set or an LED lightbulb for one minute.

    "As for the idea that music stars will someday perform at AWE powered events (as Wubbo also envisioned), only patience equals hope."
    *** And this is how you lie.  You announced an impending concert, featuring major stars, at a specific venue, (a park near Austin), during a certain season.  That was years ago.  That transitioned to you claiming to have (much later) bought a Marshall guitar amp (pretending the promoter buys the amps - nice try), then maybe a year later, you dubiously claimed to have "powered" a transistor radio or squeezed a faltering note or two out of a guitar, and tried to offer it as a substitute for "the concert that never happened".

    Now you weakly attempt to pretend that your statement was that (Lie 1) "someday", (Lie 2) "music stars" will perform at (Lie 3) "AWE powered events".  No that is NOT what you had announced.  You announced a specific concert, at a specific venue, during a specific time, and claimed to have scheduled specific stars.  Since then, you've tried to shift what you said into something completely different (3 straw men, maybe more) Do you think nobody notices? Lies, lies, and more lies.  Lies about technology, lies about your projects, lies about other peoples' projects, lies about what other people say, and even lies about your own lies, lyingly claiming you didn't lie!.  One would think you might get tired of it at some point.  Certainly your credibility was gone years ago.

    "We did manage a few plaintive electric guitar notes by kite power, and apologies for slowness."
    *** It's hard to discuss anything with someone who keeps moving the goalpost and making up new rules as their previous false statements are revisited.  You have proven you are dishonest, and that's the simple fact.  Too bad you can't even admit when you are wrong or get ahead of yourself.  You ought to look into politics as a profession - you have ample qualifications but would need to shave the beard.

    "Don't lose hope yet."
    *** I never lost hope (ANOTHER of your endless "straw-man" arguments - you are THE Straw Man!) - I've always felt AWE will prove itself one day, as is documented on my website going back to the 1970's.  It's you who are just getting started on the learning curve, while claiming to be "the expert" - laughable.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18539 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    Doug,

    So you really do have time after all to post at great length, but your off-topic excesses do not explain why its only the SuperTurbine in AWE R&D unable to get up higher than wind towers. 

    Rest assured, the IFO concept can go  
    DaveS said: "The idea of a "Magenn front" is a straw-man,"
    *** Dave, get a life - the whole world has more flavors than "straw-man".  I told you and everyone else that Magenn was a piece of doggie-doo the moment it reared it's misguided and deformed head. That didn't stop people from pouring millions of wasted dollars into it, nor did it stop the supposedly-knowledgeable people attempting AWE from using it as the main poster-child for "the industry" for years until (maybe) my opinion gained some traction (or it became obvious even to idiots that Magenn was indeed a joke) and, years later, it was finally seen as the joke it always was, finally even by the supposed " AWE experts", who were the last to know.

    "as is the misplaced hope that the entire AWE world is tending toward massive ST drive-shafts, which cannot effectively reach upper-winds."
    *** There you go again, with YOUR straw-man hope that somehow the driveshafts must be "massive".  You fixate on your own flawed (lack of) understanding of the big picture, and that is all you know.

    "AWE hope is on the real fronts." 
    *** Except you can't tell the difference between real and imaginary, between fruitful approaches and inadvisable nonsense - it's all the same to you.

    "The IFO is a fine hope only to the most knowledgeable."
    *** Which is, (of course) you, right?  Mmmmm Hmmm... (pardon my while I puke - hope I don't choke since I am laughing so hard!)  An RC model would be straightforward enough - a proof of concept would not require going all the way up to the jet stream.   Let's see what this concept can do!  Why wait?  Come on, let's see it, Mr. "Expert".  Maybe, if you are lucky, for $100,000 you can power a crystal radio set or an LED lightbulb for one minute.

    "As for the idea that music stars will someday perform at AWE powered events (as Wubbo also envisioned), only patience equals hope."
    *** And this is how you lie.  You announced an impending concert, featuring major stars, at a specific venue, (a park near Austin), during a certain season.  That was years ago.  That transitioned to you claiming to have (much later) bought a Marshall guitar amp (pretending the promoter buys the amps - nice try), then maybe a year later, you dubiously claimed to have "powered" a transistor radio or squeezed a faltering note or two out of a guitar, and tried to offer it as a substitute for "the concert that never happened".

    Now you weakly attempt to pretend that your statement was that (Lie 1) "someday", (Lie 2) "music stars" will perform at (Lie 3) "AWE powered events".  No that is NOT what you had announced.  You announced a specific concert, at a specific venue, during a specific time, and claimed to have scheduled specific stars.  Since then, you've tried to shift what you said into something completely different (3 straw men, maybe more) Do you think nobody notices? Lies, lies, and more lies.  Lies about technology, lies about your projects, lies about other peoples' projects, lies about what other people say, and even lies about your own lies, lyingly claiming you didn't lie!.  One would think you might get tired of it at some point.  Certainly your credibility was gone years ago.

    "We did manage a few plaintive electric guitar notes by kite power, and apologies for slowness."
    *** It's hard to discuss anything with someone who keeps moving the goalpost and making up new rules as their previous false statements are revisited.  You have proven you are dishonest, and that's the simple fact.  Too bad you can't even admit when you are wrong or get ahead of yourself.  You ought to look into politics as a profession - you have ample qualifications but would need to shave the beard.

    "Don't lose hope yet."
    *** I never lost hope (ANOTHER of your endless "straw-man" arguments - you are THE Straw Man!) - I've always felt AWE will prove itself one day, as is documented on my website going back to the 1970's.  It's you who are just getting started on the learning curve, while claiming to be "the expert" - laughable.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18540 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Spin Bol Video
    A representative spin bol of cheap simple construction and strong turbo power potential, close to what Dr. Beaujean envisioned, to compare with other AWES soft-rotors, and well suited to Pierre's multi-reel carousel-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18541 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
    more buzzwords, more head-scratching and brain-teasing, no results
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18542 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    DaveS said: 'Doug, So you really do have time after all to post at great length, but your off-topic excesses"
    *** Not off-topic, on-topic.  Not in excess.  In your first sentence you have already mischaracterized my words 3 times.
    "do not explain why its only the SuperTurbine in AWE R&D unable to get up higher than wind towers."
    *** This 3rd mischaracterization contains two (2) false statements:
    1) That SuperTurbine(R) "can't" get up higher than wind towers;
    2) That it is only SuperTurbine(R) that "can't get up higher than wind towers".

    "Rest assured, the IFO concept can go conventional high-performance gliders, and the 5% boost airliners achieve by seeking tailwinds is an IFO-principle existence proof."
    *** Fantastic, DaveS, but SuperTurbine, at THIS time has flown higher than an IFO device, since, like so many AWE concepts, IFO is only an idea right now, and has never been built.  If you believe in it, I suggest you start with a scale model that could easily be built using mostly off-the-shelf RC airplane parts, and see what you can get out of it.  Try compressed air.  try liquifying air.  or just brek down and use batteries.  In any case, see how much more power you can bring down that it took to get up.  This is also (obviously) advice to Gabor.  It's an interesting idea, so let's see one.

    "The kite-reeling crowd easily gets to 1km high, and EnerKite's ~100kW reeling record is many times more power than any of your tower-based schemes ever have shown, much less your airborne work. Even the defunct Magenn made it far higher that you can manage, even after two decades for you to show results."
    *** Magenn is defunct?  bbbbut you said there is hope for them!  Are you saying they "quietly went away"?
    Actually, I've flown kites higher than Magenn way back in the 1960's, as a child and they probably made just as much power (zero?).  Back then, kites were 18 cents each, but we wanted better ones so we started making our own and we even sold a few.

    "So go ahead and take solace that kPower postponed its AWEfest plan, over my objections."
    *** DaveS I could care less what your excuses are.  Here we go again: "postponed" Mmmm Hmmm.  That and the second coming - merely "postponed" for 2000 years, right?  Endlessly "postponed".  "Solace" - more misapplied vocabulary.  The simple fact is, you'd need an AWE system that could MAKE enough power to power a rock concert, in order to HAVE a rock concert powered by AWE, so your statements of scheduling such an event a couple years ago were never credible for even a moment.  I only hassle you about it because you keep going on making similarly ridiculous statements every day, and that one is easy to prove, whereas others can only be recognized by someone who knows whats going on and understands the art.

    "Its your most valid complaint, never mind the apologies."
    *** Finally you admit something I said is valid - hallelujah.

    "But please start your own topics for your windy complaints,"
    *** My main "complaint" is you endlessly breaking wind in lieu of saying anything meaningful.

    "daveS"
    *** DougS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18543 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/28/2015
    Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web


    Rod's     -ve

    means "negative"
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18544 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
    Do you mean turbine (not turbo) power?
    How likely is that design to scale? you see it used on the leading edge of similar larger models...  https://youtu.be/DDEauMWS43I
    But the fan blades seem way too close for efficient generation.
     Dr. Beaujean envisioned counter rotating soft sail ring sets on airborne rails as I remember.... correct if wrong please.
    Here's some unseen Daisy stack test video https://youtu.be/lR6U_619kG0
    It shows something of the power out detail. (Watts on the display = watt hours) hitting around 100w.
    really low to the ground though, so it's in slow wind... Need more rings.
    I'll work on a bit of extrapolation from this video to show how ugly a farm with stacks 8 tall could look.
    The reality will be much prettier.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18545 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

    Ah I'm wrong...  You'd notice 0.1wh increments every 3.6 seconds in the video if it was outputting 100w.
    Slow day.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18546 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
    Here's the ugly looking farm https://youtu.be/D1ByHwigKCk

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18547 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: single line lifter auto correct by under-slung windsock web
    In effect the tail's V-bridle converted to a Y-bridle with a vertical line back to the kites main bridle-point now pulls down on the "brake line(s)" on the up-wind side, with amplified correction force.
    more a forward tuning device where instead of connecting at the back edge you connect to the tuning bridles (pull gives less cord depth thus turn goes toward that side) ... and front of the y goes below the bridle for a slight vertical reference.
    Most of the problem is complex tunings of mass-balance and aerodamping, not just a simple turn correction
    Yes so having a reference way below the centre of gravity, able to feed back an attitude input, to affect a correction in lift balance, according to a reliable downwind and downward reference. That's what I'm after from a lift kite auto tuner add on.


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18548 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
    Doug,

    On the other hand, Enthalpy is one of Gibbs' great contributions to engineering thermodynamics. Albert Einstein called him "the greatest mind in American history."

    Kite thermodynamics has of course had "results" for millennia. Then, just hours since the identification of enthalpy in our AWES, and you are already unhappy about it. That's a "result" too,

    daveS





    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 7:49 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    more buzzwords, more head-scratching and brain-teasing, no results
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18549 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Wind Turbines Power Liquid-Air Energy Storage
    In reviewing the alternatives, liquid air is currently disadvantaged compared to Lion batteries by cost and weight factors. Electrolysis with PEM (proton exchange membrane, with conversion efficiencies up to 90%) to produce hydrogen seems closer to a practical fuel from air, since moisture is available in air. IFOs could someday comprise a fleet of diverse specialized energy aircraft outputting many different products- electricity, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, in gaseous, liquid, or ice forms, with gravity-well (mass-altitude) energy potential as well. Industrial processes could be supported by the synthesis, transport, and processing of chemicals and components aloft. Industrial Sky by IFO...



    On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:35 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    DaveS said: 'Doug, So you really do have time after all to post at great length, but your off-topic excesses"
    *** Not off-topic, on-topic.  Not in excess.  In your first sentence you have already mischaracterized my words 3 times.
    "do not explain why its only the SuperTurbine in AWE R&D unable to get up higher than wind towers."
    *** This 3rd mischaracterization contains two (2) false statements:
    1) That SuperTurbine(R) "can't" get up higher than wind towers;
    2) That it is only SuperTurbine(R) that "can't get up higher than wind towers".

    "Rest assured, the IFO concept can go conventional high-performance gliders, and the 5% boost airliners achieve by seeking tailwinds is an IFO-principle existence proof."
    *** Fantastic, DaveS, but SuperTurbine, at THIS time has flown higher than an IFO device, since, like so many AWE concepts, IFO is only an idea right now, and has never been built.  If you believe in it, I suggest you start with a scale model that could easily be built using mostly off-the-shelf RC airplane parts, and see what you can get out of it.  Try compressed air.  try liquifying air.  or just brek down and use batteries.  In any case, see how much more power you can bring down that it took to get up.  This is also (obviously) advice to Gabor.  It's an interesting idea, so let's see one.

    "The kite-reeling crowd easily gets to 1km high, and EnerKite's ~100kW reeling record is many times more power than any of your tower-based schemes ever have shown, much less your airborne work. Even the defunct Magenn made it far higher that you can manage, even after two decades for you to show results."
    *** Magenn is defunct?  bbbbut you said there is hope for them!  Are you saying they "quietly went away"?
    Actually, I've flown kites higher than Magenn way back in the 1960's, as a child and they probably made just as much power (zero?).  Back then, kites were 18 cents each, but we wanted better ones so we started making our own and we even sold a few.

    "So go ahead and take solace that kPower postponed its AWEfest plan, over my objections."
    *** DaveS I could care less what your excuses are.  Here we go again: "postponed" Mmmm Hmmm.  That and the second coming - merely "postponed" for 2000 years, right?  Endlessly "postponed".  "Solace" - more misapplied vocabulary.  The simple fact is, you'd need an AWE system that could MAKE enough power to power a rock concert, in order to HAVE a rock concert powered by AWE, so your statements of scheduling such an event a couple years ago were never credible for even a moment.  I only hassle you about it because you keep going on making similarly ridiculous statements every day, and that one is easy to prove, whereas others can only be recognized by someone who knows whats going on and understands the art.

    "Its your most valid complaint, never mind the apologies."
    *** Finally you admit something I said is valid - hallelujah.

    "But please start your own topics for your windy complaints,"
    *** My main "complaint" is you endlessly breaking wind in lieu of saying anything meaningful.

    "daveS"
    *** DougS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18550 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
    KiteLab Ilwaco tested weight-to-power performance many different wind spinners over several years, and just as Ron Welty predicted, the simple spin-basket won. The related spin-bol is basically a spin-chute; very simple and robust. Of course the spin-bol is only a baseline soft-rotor design to test against, rather than an a-priori down-select, and no doubt could be refined and optimized considerably.

    High solidity is an advantage at low flow velocity. Note how effective a torque machine modern farm sheet-metal windmill rotors are. The larger the turbine, the "slower" the dimensionless flow of constant wind. Note how the largest helicopters have more blades. A spin-bol can afford more blades, since they are just fabric, not massive rigid structure. Its important to envision spin-bols as winning by scaling beyond all other soft rotors;  
    Here's the ugly looking farm https://youtu.be/D1ByHwigKCk

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878


    On 29 July 2015 at 08:51, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com