Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES16943to16992 Page 233 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16943 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16944 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16945 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16946 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16947 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16948 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Contracting Torque-Ladder R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16949 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16950 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16951 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16952 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16953 From: dougselsam Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16954 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16955 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16956 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Original Electrical Kite Patent (Duffy's Tavern- Classic Radio Comed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16957 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16958 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16959 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16960 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16961 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16962 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Facebook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16963 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16964 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Facebook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16965 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: IFOs in the ITCZ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16966 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: MIT Technology Review features Altaeros' Ben Glass

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16967 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16968 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16969 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16970 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16971 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16972 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16973 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16974 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16975 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16976 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16977 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16978 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16979 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16980 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16981 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16982 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16983 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16984 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16985 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16986 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16987 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16988 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16989 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Line-Clamping Bearing Holders

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16990 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16991 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/19/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16992 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16943 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

There really are not many ways to scale up structure in engineering. Tensile structure is at the top, and compressive structure can be somewhat scaled by fractal geometry. Torsion and shear are hardest stresses to scale. Aviation is special, because low-mass drives design, but scaling law is especially cruel. Our glory here is to identify a new class of aerial structure scalable in 3D beyond anything before, but respecting scaling laws.

My proposal to Rod was that he test torque ladder scaling (never mind my personal conviction of poor scalability) and (once again) show the world that Gordon and Galileos pessimistic scaling predictions hold (this time in AWE). I had already calculated on Forum that Doug's torque-tube ST to 1000ft would be monstrously heavy and expensive; but it was hoped Rod could provide a tangible failure to shut up doubters. I was insistent that this would be a service to science, for those whom the abstract Laws do not convince.

So Rod has tested the idea, but without my desired result of being able to say if they bear out Gordon and Gallileo, which seems like a failure of observation, to me at least. Pierre still thinks the ST beats a single rotor by mass, when even Doug has repeated the truism that adding a few inches to the blades of the conventional rotor beats all "fantasy turbines". It seems nothing was learned.

Rod's rhetorical intent to rebut rhetoric is, of course, totally absurd.

Pierre wrote" "The DaveS' style "since you tell my method is bad, I tell your method is bad" is not the best way for a technical debate."

Pierre wrongly suggests that this single debating method (to "hoist" the opposing view by it own "petard"*) is my (overly narrow) technical debate "style". In fact, I use all the famous classical methods, but my ideal strategy is to find the best engineering-science position in advance, then debate from that high ground; using a blizzard of facts, as my "best style". The set of available facts to score with in a debate include whatever statements are posed by the opposing view when the statements are dubious, and easily used against the poseur.

What Pierre cannot show is any other place but this Forum where AWE debate is passionately alive; certainly not at AWEC conferences (where even piano is more welcome) or MikeB's blog (where he blocks whatever he wants, but finds Pierre's ambiguous statements useful).

So let Pierre show us "the best way for a technical debate,"  that somehow avoids "not the best" debating methods like-

 


On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 3:07 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16944 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an
Yes a dome and arch are a different topology, but the "earth as a spar" is primarily as a geometric constant. If we could roll up the surface, AWES and all, it would still have the same topology*, under standard undstanding. Its seems we have to account for wind-field topology next, which is exciting new theoretic territory.

An iso-dome has a sort of tricky topological defect on the windward side, that tends towards LE collapse, that we have to resolve. The arch has less of an issue with the LE, since it can be designed luff-proof once, in one local polarization, but the dome needs an unpolarized iso-solution all around its margin. These are not barriers, but critical details to solve.
-----------------
* By much the same logic as the joke that a topologist cannot tell his coffee cup from his donut.


On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 2:46 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16945 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

I think the failed observation is where you failed to notice we have no contract. Your proposal let's call it a suggestion is a welcome ponderance at most so far.
If you'd like to contract me to research this for you we can arrange terms.
Rod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16946 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
We have barely begun settling hot scaling and configuration controversies in the AWE R&D world. The endless facts and opinions are a side show, and the serious game is formal simulation and test engineering; to diligently test all AWES ideas that can be tested, in careful direct comparisons, in order for real-world data to decide for us the dominant solutions.

Nevertheless, messy engineering discussion like ours is where concepts first emerge to slate for testing. For example the megascale AWES case of the (~1 mile WS) fabric arch concept that Payne patented in the '70s is obviously on my hot list of what the world should soon test. At the other complexity extreme, by the 2025 NextGen milestone, I would test and develop the IFO concept, as a hot energy-plane liberated from the tether, ultimately in vast flocks that migrate with Jet Stream shears or ITCZ upwellings.

We continue to freely debate concepts, to toughen them up for the real world, where its going to get dangerous very soon now. Even the "hobbyists" as RolandS calls them, are now crossing the line between risk-of-injury to lethal-forces. Both giant soft-kites and fast high-mass kiteplanes will kill the unwary, so safety is the top priority. This is as good a concise action statement as I can formulate for DaveL to perhaps agree.

Please help identify fallacies in the Low-Complexity AWE Space (where rag is king), Passive-Automation (with regulatorily-mandated pilot supervision), arches as a common method, futuristic 3D Lattices (for highest topological stability), Aerotecture, and other "Open AWE" thinking.


On Saturday, February 14, 2015 9:30 AM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16947 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
I deliberately did not contract you to be a keen observer of scaling law in torque-ladders. Doug should pay, since its his concept space.


On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 11:49 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16948 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Contracting Torque-Ladder R&D
To clarify with details this topic which Rod raised, I recently proposed to him off-Forum that he seek a contract with Rudy Harburg, the actual ST inventor (in stick and fabric). Of course it would be nice if Doug chipped in, since he badly needs validation or closure. Rod should get paid for torque-ladder testing, in my view.

My own R&D budget is limited and carefully allocated. Its a very focused bet on "rag and string", and against spending on torsion transmission (R&D contracts). The hope is to compete against all AWES concepts, not just torsion, that other people's money brings to the race. I will not spend a penny on the M600 either, but am content someone else is paying Makani's beleaguered engineers, for a better technological contest.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16949 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Ochd well,
At least we all now know what a torque ladder is.
Soon we'll all even have one working datum point.
Maybe one day we can have a peer reviewed proof of scaling methods and their limits.
Until then. It works. We know.
And it could be made too big to possibly work. We know. 
How big it ever has to be... Hopefully not that big.
It needs tension to operate. We know.
It can be further stabilised by setting ring sections instead of rods with cone lines to the tension tether. I'm kinda sure.
Any more reliable info always welcome.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16950 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
For the record, the AWE world the long knew torque ladder concept from both Rudy (thanks to JoeF) and Doug's patents. The standing KiteLab prediction on the early Forum was that it would work marginally at small scale, but "Gordon's Law*" against torsion as a structural means, would prevent powerful scaling up to our prime higher altitudes.

It is conceded that Rod does not have to shed light on the practical or theoretic scaling limits, and its taken on his word that a lack of a paid contract is the reason (he apparently believes in Contract Law more than Physical Law).

* We can see Gordon as a rotational extension of Galileo's Scaling Law.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16951 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Thanks for generously conceeding that I'm a looney. Sweet ta.
Doug, if you're still reading...
Were any of your torque ladder forms configured like the one I helped bring to the forum... With the rungs able to only rotate around and not slide along the tension line?

Prime higher altitude. Nah it's never been meant to go there. Get a grip Dave.
This is a low level only component. An enabler. You may stop ranting on now oh holy one.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16952 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an

Further spar for the list:  Opposing coupled veering wings or opposing coupled veering wing systems.

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16953 From: dougselsam Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
DaveS said: "Doug,We have in fact credited Galileo with his Square-Cube Law many times on the Forum, especially with regard to poor SuperTurbine scalability."
***Oh I guess I wasn't paying attention.  I thought every engineer knew about cubic scaling,. It is kind of obvious: Length x Width x Height - no engineering degree required, no geniuses needed.

" -  It is in fact quite understandable by a sixth-grader, including its historical origin;"
*** Yeah, I believe you.  I did not question it.  I just said I never knew Galileo was the origin of such a mundane observation.  And just because you said it several times, I don't always pay attention to what you write, since you tend to go on and on and on...

 like the linked version below, for kids.

*** Yeah thanks for the link - I'll be sure to ignore it...

"You praise yourself to the skies ("greatest living ..."),"
Well, gosh, I AM pretty great (wipes fingernails on shirt)...

"but seem oddly jealous of Galileo, da Vinci,  and the Wrights."
*** You seem oddly to have "too much time on your hands"...

"The rest of the world has your greatness formula reversed, based on proven merit."
*** Wait, you mean someone out there thinks the Wright Brothers and DaVinci out-genius me?  Say it isn't so!  I hope someday I get recognized.  But then again, didn't Galileo get the death penalty or something, for telling simple truth from official BS?  Today he'd probably be killed for debunking global warming.

"You also overlook the Forum finding that ducted turbines become performance-competitive near the Critical Mach Number,"
*** Gosh, just when I had been getting ready to say something nice to you, you show your true colors of ignorance again.   "Forum finding" - Hah!  That is funny!  Ducted turbines have been found lacking, for many reasons, one of which DOES have to do with Mach number, but not the way you are saying.  One problem (of many) with ducted turbines (Or any turbine with enhanced flow speed like a Makani propeller for example) is NOISE.  WInd turbines are best kept below about 160 MPH tip speed to keep them quiet.

"which might be just the thing for a an IFO diving from 15km high, or a very hot kiteplane sweeping, or maybe even on the tips of future HAWT blades. You only seem to reason about sub-critical Mach regime fantasy-turbines without differentiating carefully, and without ever seeing opinionated ST hype as a fantasy,  daveS"
*** Thanks for your opinion.  I'd say we're looking at a case of "those who speak don't know, and those who know don't speak"...  :)

(Selsam cone of silence lowers once again....)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16954 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
Corrections to Doug:

There would not be noise issues to IFOs with ducted turbines at the high altitudes specified. No one on the ground would hear anything. Modern jets themselves are getting much quieter, thankfully. A ducted turbine is not necessarily louder than naked turbine. Typical efficient RPM will obviously be far beyond surface wind towers, and far beyond also the possible relative-wind velocities (DS gliders already exceed 400mph). 

Its not mysterious why a discussion of Galileo's Law is unwelcome to you. Now Rod states the torque ladder will not scale, consistent with Galileo's Law. If you knew all along about this physical law, instinctively, your known AWES concepts give no clue.

Good luck with whatever you are working on.


On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 5:35 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16955 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an
True JoeF; now we can see how Wayne's tethered foil pair comprise an extreme spar made of a single string along almost all its length; a case of almost totally porous "inflation" (sleds and parafoils as semi-porus spar cases). The positive pressure-field between such wings is highly non-linear compared to ordinary inflated volumes. Drop-stitch inflated structure is also in this soft-kite spar space (PL's giant "mattress" flag kites).


On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 4:45 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16956 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2015
Subject: Original Electrical Kite Patent (Duffy's Tavern- Classic Radio Comed

Archie's junk patent on electricity is invalidated because Ben Franklin got priority, so he decides to patent Franklin's kite instead:

"The kite is the coming thing" Duffy's Tavern 1949

Go to minute 24.20 and listen to the end-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16957 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
Rod also states that it doesn't matter that the torque ladder doesn't scale to enormous ladder to the moon scale* easily. It's already plenty strong enough to handle the job needed of it.

*A scale seemingly suggested necessary by Dave S...


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16958 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an
Don't forget your very poignant 2 dogs chasing 2 different balls as a spar Dave S

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16959 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
Correction: Rod is making up a "moon scale" AWES proposal, for some unknown reason. Even the (non-AWES) Space Elevator is far lower, by an order-of-magnitude.

I consistently state the current AWES target altitude is given by the FAA provisional AWE rules (the wind at and just below 2000ft). I also cite Cristina's ~5000ft sweet-spot as an aspiration, and sometimes refer to 10km range (legacy goal by teams like Makani and SkyWIndPower, and still current for megascale lattices asn IFO concepts). I have specifically proposed 200ft high as already seemingly too high for a practical torque-drive AWES, while obviously too low to compete with a simple mast or tower.


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:17 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16960 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Earth Spar capability- Anchor Fields for Domes (Iso-lattices) an
Rod,

 The Earth spar and air spar ideas are offered in a serious helpful spirit. The idea of two dogs being a spar is all yours, and not serious nor helpful. Start you own topic for such ideas.

My dog is not as dumb as a spar; continuing to train daily as a kite flyer; already probably better than some less active fliers,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:21 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16961 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: The future of kite technology.
The best way for us to change the world will be by producing products that will be widely used, to do so we must eventually have a sellable products. No amount of wishful thinking will make any invention come to fruition. Whether it be Daisy chains, Rag and string mechanisms, Mothra, Lattices, Soil anchors etc, they all have their respective niche. Some technologies may perform better in light winds, some in gusts, all these factors must be taken into account. Which option would be the best for your customer? How would you convince a regular person to buy what you are producing? Is there any evidence to support your reasoning? These are all questions any successful AWES enterprise must recognise and overcome.

Christian 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16962 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Facebook
A new or alternative forum is needed, If you have a Facebook account and would like to join please search Christian Cleventine in the search bar. 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16963 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Christian,

Low-Complexity AWE  favors COTS (Commercial-Off-The-Shelf) components, so your criteria of "sellable products" is already a step ahead here, compared to AWES made of custom parts, with far higher capital intensity per installed watt. Our paradigm of "sailing in the sky" inherits sailors-logic of a suite of sails (quiver of kites) rigged and set flexibly to the widest conditions.

Just be sure to understand that "rag-and-string" on the Forum is but a shorthand euphemism for COTS soft kites, and "Mothra" represents COTS rope load-paths filled with sail units, as a maximal wing basis. These are not speculative ideas to be dismissed by only invoking their informal tags, but have well working cases.

Of course, you have a definite solution in mind that you are intending to patent, that must beat all prior art to make your investors money. You are unable to share details, at the advice of these shadowy investors, who are not subject-matter experts. Thus you offer no "evidence to support your (own) reasoning". 

This is the place for Open AWE sharing, and our public evidence seems to surpass anything the stealth ventures have. It is presumed that AWE most venture secrecy hides investment weakness, not kite secret-sauce. Please let us know soonest when we can judge your design, by the criteria you have just posed,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:00 AM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16964 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Facebook
Don't forget the NASA AWE Forum as an alternative. Nobody is moving it forward. Its going to be interesting to see what AWES engineering talent Facebook can bring together behind its membership wall, that the older demographics of NASA and this Forum could not.

Please let us know how it goes.


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:01 AM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16965 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: IFOs in the ITCZ
The Inter-Tropical-Convergence-Zone is a long standing puzzle to AWE theory. Motruous power lurks there, in a vast stormy belt encompassing the Earth; but its mostly vertical, in lightning-riddled "soup". The Sky is literally larger at the equator, with the storms towering roughly twice as high as those in higher latitudes.

We start with the fact that is possible to fly and survive extreme storm conditions, by varied aeronautical case evidence. Some sort of horizontal one-way valved sail-mesh was a starting idea of how to tap convective storms. In theory, an AWES that taps upward convection would moderate storm development. Even hurricanes and tornadoes might be damped.

Maybe not in our time, but perhaps as a major future technology, flocks of IFOs could work the ITCZ. This idea popped out in Forum discussion yesterday, and effectively doubles the realm the IFO concept might apply to. In cooperation with Gabor, this is CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool, with Gabor as the IFO inventor-of-record.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16966 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: MIT Technology Review features Altaeros' Ben Glass
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16967 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Thank you for your response, Dave

You wrote
 
"Low-Complexity AWE  favors COTS (Commercial-Off-The-Shelf) components, so your criteria of "sellable products" is already a step ahead here, compared to AWES made of custom parts, with far higher capital intensity per installed watt."

Though this may be the aim of your company currently, when you scale your product you may want to provide a kit or completed mechanism for those who just want a functioning product. Additionally because your device loops you will eventually want to engineer kites designed to loop one direction to increase efficiency. 


Fortunately, this being 2015 there are many cheap and free resources available. By learning CAD (and programs like Rhino and grasshopper), parametric modeling, FEM techniques, 3d printing and rapid prototyping, development and research is inexpensive and accessible to anyone, it is easier than ever to engineer and design custom parts that are far stronger, lighter most importantly CHEAPER than traditional methods. 




"Of course, you have a definite solution in mind that you are intending to patent, that must beat all prior art to make your investors money. You are unable to share details, at the advice of these shadowy investors, who are not subject-matter experts. Thus you offer no "evidence to support your (own) reasoning". "

Thank you for showing so much interest in my work, Dave! At least someone thinks my ideas are valuable, lol!  Anyone curious about my work can email me personally at ChristianHarrell@gmail.com.


I think you may have changed subject there bit there, when I said "evidence to support your reasoning" I was curious about your target market and what research you've done to see the real world desire in your product. Im flattered that you are curious about my burgeoning corporate enterprise but I'm just getting off the ground. Im considering marketing towards environmentally conscious and technologically savy, college educated, middle age adults, but I am still researching.

Yes we are all aware of the of AWES necessity. But how to convey that to the people using our products is the real question. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16968 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Christian,

I don't have a target market per se, in thinking that all humans should enjoy kites without necessarily selling them anything. Yes, I have random market connections, like my old friend Michael Lin's New Tech Kites making KiteSats that might end up in remote places. There was no "targeting", its justs happens. In lieu of a targeted market plan, I advocate "replacing oil with kites", as a knowledge-quest. The CC+ AWE IP Pool honor system could be said to target honorable players, but more as partners than customers. We just are not a strong marketing culture here, but hackers.

Yes, there probably will be some custom content to my final AWES designs, but as a partial failure of my "All COTS" ideal. I really don't want to be the guy risking investors money on asymmetric wings, even though I make and fly them for many years now. Custom parts for my own creative pleasure is different than trying to beat cheap "good-enough" COTS in the markets. My thinking taken to its logical extreme would convert a legacy (COTS) power plant into a kite hybrid, with just COTS added parts, from clutches and cableways, to kites.

I am uniformly curious about all AWE players, but cannot say that I know your prospective ideas enough to judge them yet. The Facebook AWE Forum will hopefully be a more consistently friendly place for folks to add their creative value, since its true, this Forum is more of a polluted data mine now, than a productive happy group effort. Sadly, we keep most of our positive interactions off-Forum these days, to avoid the troll-factor. 

Best of luck,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 12:07 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16969 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
DaveS I would reply properly to you but your writing stacks so many mutually interdependent incorrect (wrong) notions together, that untangling it is worse than untangling any string from a crashed kite.  It would be an all-day, every day effort, and yet, one could still never get ahead of your dedicated fight for ignorance.  To start with, you constantly ascribe positions to me that I have never taken, and misquote me at every turn.  Most of your accusations are of the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" variety - impossible to respond to.  At least you are consistent.  Fighting for ignorance: Someone's gotta do it!  Carry on...
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16970 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking
This FAA NPRM (notice of proposed rule-making) is serious reading for small AWES developers, who ideally should respond to the call for comments with a coherent set of AWES application-specific suggestions, since our platforms are so unusual and mostly overlooked in the general sUAS mix-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16971 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
DaveS said "there probably will be some custom content to my final AWES designs"
***Cool can't wait to see your "final AWE designs".  When will that be?  (Oh wait, I know, "forever", right?...)
"
Sadly, we keep most of our positive interactions off-Forum these days, to avoid the troll-factor." Ah yes, "sadly", as in "Sadly, DaveS still thinks he knows everything", or as in "Sadly, DaveS often starts sentences with the word "Sadly"."  Hey Dave, by "troll" (can you say "posterchild"?) you mean "anyone who has any idea what they are talking about", right?

"Best of luck, daveS"
*** yes but skill is probably a better path than luck, for anyone halfway serious.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16972 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

David Santos boy you just listen up now ok! And listen up good.
I'll get you a torque ladder to the moon if you want ok. But you'll have to stump up the cash and wait.
The current scaling issue with a torque ladder is alignment of spars along the lifter they ride . Occaional Rings in the lader tied cone fashion should sort this.
Spinning lots of tubes in a row is how the tiniest to the largest DNA type devices get around.
Of course eventually there's the obvious weight  & energy available in lift with limits on availability necessary for torque energy transfer.
That's where good bearings might next become the scaling issue.
Then maybe the question of aerodynamic optimisation of the rotary AWES ring.
Can it be  wide stiff and Supersonic?
Or more localised to the spars and speedily steerable? That's Probably depending on how steady you can set some mesh rigging. I've given you enough drawing idea by now. Demoed a remote tension control line system for you. if you want to use it go ahead be my guest.
The next scaling issue then is finding people to get off their arshe end and test.
And whilst I'm at whinging on could somebody else please get on with making or sourcing a good line clamping bearing holder. Something removable too, that snapps together casing a bearing which has been put on the line.
That would be bloody useful.
Re stating continually the terms and status update of some perceived slander match in the guise of a wits battle isn't.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16973 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Cristian,

"Forever" is Doug's marketing language, not mine. Please be careful not to confuse our claims.

My final designs will be those I complete just before death. Otherwise, my many past experiments are all completed designs, and the COTS proportion has steadily grown, so its now possible to walk into a kite store and buy just about everything needed for a small pumping AWES, to drive common hand chargers.

Keep in mind you have a long way to go to match this amount of shared art. I really do mean good luck, since I am unsure of your actual skill level, nor is skill always enough in this world. If you think I am a troll, at least be reassured I will not be joining Facebook to mess up your new Forum,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 3:37 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16974 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

By the way that line and bearing clamp would make automatically adding spars onto the line as it payed out feasible.
Break that Law Galileo. Figaro, magnificohohohohhhh

On 18 Feb 2015 23:39, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16975 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
Rod,

Even if it made sense, I can't supply you with cash to show you can somehow "break" Galileo's Scaling Law. Its your claim to find a proper investor for.

Note that "slander" is a verbal error. I am not party to "perceived slander", and am content for libel on the Forum to corrected on the record, just like ordinary factual errors are,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 3:39 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16976 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

Ahhh beautiful picture.
Nice work there.
Big piece of rope to handle though eh.
Hope you got gloves and hard hats for everyone involved.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16977 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?
Clarification: By "verbal"in my previous message I mean this definition from Merriam-Webster-

3. :  spoken rather than written <a verbal contract
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16978 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

Many thanks for sharing.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16979 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ
IFOs are tetherless (no "big piece of rope to handle").


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:02 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16980 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: New FAA sUAS Notice of Proposed Rulemaking
The quick takeaway is that kites will continue regulated under CFR 14 FAR Part 101, but that this is not enough as our systems outgrow Part 101 limitations.

A careful reading shows a large loophole for "any kite that weighs more than 5 pounds" but is operated safely, with no 55lb limit as imposed on the sUAS class.

TACO1.0 remains essentially correct under the proposed rules.


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:04 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16981 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Awesome link thanks Christian.
The polymers are nearly all clear.
Hollow swept chord forms with voronoi bone like bubble infill shouldn't be too hard for you to make in rhino grasshopper.. Sinue, ligament and cordage can all be mathematically described there too. But to what glasshouse effect... I guess programing in a little high pressure ram through ventilation vent pattern with 200 or so tiny holes or any other odd request wouldn't be too hard either with the parametric designs...
Good call and good luck with it dude.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16982 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.

Oh Doug that was all a  bit rough and unnecessary you (actual funny rude word removed for NSFW reasons)

Dave S
Who sells perfectly symmetrical wings popularly? Oh 2 wings have symmetry about a plane or the 2 sides of an arch kite sure. Single wings hardly ever have symmetry in themselves. They are often grouped like say around a jet compressor or turbine and able to provide group function.

And they work well that way.. Weird who'd have known?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16983 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

Phew, sorry, I'm glad I got that wrong.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16984 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Rod, Rhino is my next step after working on FEM, It is incredible the work you've done, unfortunately I need a Windows to run Grasshopper but I think I've found a workaround. I would definitely like to have a nerd session on a google hangout about Rhino if you've got the time. 

Im looking to purchase a high resolution 3d printer pretty soon, and cant wait to begin printing components for my prototypes. additionally I would be able to run FEA on some of your models if theyre .stl format.

Christian



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16985 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ

If the top of the ifo looks like
Some sort of horizontal one-way valved sail-mesh
Sounds big
Or is that a written off part of the idea?
Could look lovely

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16986 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

So everywhere on the forum where it says "Rod said" I didn't.

On 19 Feb 2015 00:44, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16987 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: IFOs in the ITCZ
Rod,

Gabor's IFO is an energy-glider for DSing, Its not a mesh at all, but could fly populous flocks someday. These separate two ITCZ AWES concepts represent different approaches far apart the complexity spectrum.

Gabor's IFOs have been a well covered topic on the Forum,

daveS.


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:52 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16988 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Rod asked me: "Who sells perfectly symmetrical wings popularly? "

Me: You did not define "perfectly" or "popularly", but common cases of symmetrical COTS wings include parafoils of all kinds, hang-gliders, flying wings, and many other  commercial niches, like parasol wing aircraft, model aircraft, etc.


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:48 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16989 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Line-Clamping Bearing Holders

This topic thread is dedicated to Rod's wish list item:


 Line-Clamping Bearing Holders



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16990 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Christian,

Please carefully consider the ready option to job out the 3D printing jobs, rather than buy a printer, to conserve and extend your investor's cash. Prices are dropping fast and obsolescence cycles are very short. A close school friend built a large scale CNC millworks business and got rich. His lesson was to run production automation around the clock, for maximum profit. Prototype engineering does not use automation intensively. You can usually bid out production far cheaper than DIY, once you have a product. I learned to use a network of shops as my own for complex projects*. The best deal is to line up the work carefully and then pay shop rate ($50-100 per hr) for the shop master to work with you (two workers- same shop rate). This is far cheaper and more educational than trying to buy every kind of tool (like Makani).

If you do this, you will be able to afford, with the same budget, many specialty-fab services, since 3D printing is just one tool, and the classic tools remain best in their classes, not yet superseded by a perfected " Star Trek replicator". . While CAD is great, do not neglect to master rapid technical sketching (like Da Vinci), since the  computer interface is not as perfect as a pencil for many creative aspects. 3D printing and CAD are obviously not the essential secret of AWE, just tools. A master typically does better with the power of simple classic tools than any apprentice dependent on the newest tools,

daveS


Background to my opinions above- Having been raised as an old-school aviation and boating shop rat, around 84 onward our Austin hacker circles (Silicon Barrio and Robot Group) gained early access to many emerging technologies, like Carl Decker's historic laser sintering lab in Austin, a cradle of 3D printing. Ray Ullrich, PE, and I designed the first 100% CAD-FEA public architecture in Austin. Joel Scholtz began his kite career and moved quickly into CNC fabric cutting. I ran the student shop at UT AE. National Instruments was our major automation donor. We did many robotics specialities, like mechatronics, advanced pneumatics, nitinol, piezo, etc. We rode the first wave of CNC industrialization making plastic, wood, and metal parts, including injection molding and vacuforming, from CNC molds, but also doing master craftwork in many mediums.

 


On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 7:43 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16991 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/19/2015
Subject: Re: The future of kite technology.
Dave, thanks for your words, 

I implore you to research modern 3d printing, CNC is dying going to be a dying art. Perhaps for your low complex approach it may be advisable to spend "$100 an hour" to get your parts produced (companies like shapeways can help with that); however, in the long run it will be advantageous to learn the role between CAD and 3d printing, for not only speed, but efficiency in creating lighter stronger and more durable materials, by learning the ins and outs, you get your product just the way you want it and can make lightning fast adjustments..

 I wouldnt spend $100 dollars an hour or "job out" when 3D printers are so inexpensive. (professional ones ranging at about the cost of a Macbook). To me that is akin to paying someone to type for you, not realizing that computers will be the future. 

Some may suggest the old ways are best, that may be true, but I see innovation all around me (Why not ask a doctor for a leech while you're at it!). As far as Da Vinci goes, I'm sure if he was around now, he wouldn't be opposed to the idea of using CAD or 3D printing.. Imagine what he could have drawn up! 

-Christian 

PS there are some great podcasts about 3d printing, if you'd like to learn passively. I enjoy 3d printing today and 3D printing society. Also there is this http://3dprinting.com/ 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16992 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2015
Subject: Re: Breaking Galileo's Scaling Law?

DaveS has some good ideas but not a good rhetoric to present them. It is the reason why he has some problems with almost players like GuidoL, MassimoI, even some players in "our" AWE forum, or with organizations like Nearzero. His style " If you tell I am wrong I tell you are wrong" is not adapted for technical debate. So for example a very good idea like "earth as a spar" is welcomed as "two dogs as spar".

 

PierreB