Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES1627to1676 Page 13 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1627 From: dave santos Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: 2 new Kite-Pilot School Classes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1628 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: XXIst World Energy Congress sptember 12 to 16

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1629 From: Doug Date: 6/13/2010
Subject: Re: Peter Hoffman enters contest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1630 From: dave santos Date: 6/13/2010
Subject: High-Wind Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1631 From: Doug Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: High-Wind Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1632 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: High-Wind Kites, McCready, ARPA, Contests,

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1633 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: Google Searching for Answers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1634 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Control Engineering for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1635 From: christopher carlin Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: Control Engineering for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1636 From: Doug Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Control Engineering for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1637 From: Doug Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Wikipedia to lead AWE effort ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1638 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Wikipedia to lead AWE effort ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1639 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Offshore wind demo?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1640 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Offshore wind demo?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1641 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2010
Subject: Re: Offshore wind demo?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1642 From: Doug Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1643 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1644 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannons for spaceflight: Jules Verne v. Wan Hu

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1645 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1646 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: All kites crash (?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1647 From: Dan Parker Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1648 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Kite drawings online

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1649 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1650 From: harry valentine Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Google (again)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1651 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1652 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (Wiley Post tail-stall to nose-dive)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1653 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1654 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1655 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1656 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Google (again) leading to Superturbine(R)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1657 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1658 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1659 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Ampyx has some happy news!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1660 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Wind Power Generation via Fast Flying Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1661 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1662 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Superturbine concept and farm of wind turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1663 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Ampyx has some happy news!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1664 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1665 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Ampyx has some happy news!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1666 From: Dan Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1667 From: Dan Parker Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1668 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Poor Man's AWECS Turrets

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1669 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1670 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1671 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1672 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1673 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1674 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1675 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/19/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1676 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/19/2010
Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1627 From: dave santos Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: 2 new Kite-Pilot School Classes
 
Kite-Pilot School is offering two new classes in addition to the original Cat 1 sUAS AWE Training Course. Consult original notice at bottom for more details.
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1628 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: XXIst World Energy Congress sptember 12 to 16
Hi all,

The registration is made.

PierreB

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
<pierre.benhaiem@... in
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1629 From: Doug Date: 6/13/2010
Subject: Re: Peter Hoffman enters contest
Looks achievable. Hang a turbine from a kite - add helium to keep it aloft. How complicated is that?
Contests: Like grants, take all your time to get nothing ever built and stay forever in "talk-about-it" land.
If I entered every "must-enter" contest, applied to every "must-apply" grant, and attended every "must-attend" conference, I would get no turbines built, because all my time would be taken up with talk talk talk.
Anyone need a really lightweight 2 kW alternator? I think it would be easy to make a very lightweight version of our Superalternators(TM)
I was at a kite store yesterday.
I asked: I bought a kite from you guys a couple years back - high lift, but it could not really handle windfarm winds and folded up - you guys got anything that can handle 30-40 mph winds? No, they said not really. Parafoils they said might hang in there for a while but would likely be shredded pretty quickly In wind energy we have to design everything for 100 mph winds, else the first big storm will destroy any system. Making power is easy. The whole challenge in wind energy is protection from high winds, that's all it is really.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1630 From: dave santos Date: 6/13/2010
Subject: High-Wind Kites
Doug,
 
Kite store kites are designed for recreation in gentle winds. KiteLab Illwaco flies expertly modified store kites in up to 100 mph winds in storms on the Pacific NW coast, but 70mph winds are pretty extreme. One must resort to stiffer frames & features like elastic aft-bridles. Self-flying is marginally enabled by very long tails & ballast partway down the tail. The kites require frequent minor repair, but keep on flying.
 
If you want parafoils able to easily withstand hurricane force winds, look to sky-diving where the "kites" are sewn to withstand hundreds of opening shocks at speeds well over 100 mph. Fighter jet & space shuttle parachute decellerators work at far higher speeds. Aerotowing proves that tethered wings of various kinds can operate well at very high speeds.
 
A lot of this is repetition; this issue is extensively reported in earlier forum posts.
 
daveS
 
PS Contests clearly do motivate some great players to do real R & D. McCready worked heroically to earn the Kremer Prize & Red Kite has our best wishes in its contest bid. At any reasonable scale thick leaky helium wings are operationally inferior to better wings hung from conventional aerostats.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1631 From: Doug Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: High-Wind Kites
You want to use McCready's human-powered plane is evidence that contests are the way to the future? McCready's minions contacted me repeatedly in their early years of dipping their toe into wind energy. They had no idea where to get blades or any other component of a wind turbine and had no understanding how they worked. They started out buying Hornet turbines and mounting them on roofs. They have barely moved beyond this. They went from 6b blades to 5. Their innovation is a fancy-looking goose-neck roof mount. I've offered for then to get involved with my work early on but they said they were only interested in inventions from Dr. McCready. Only problem is. Dr. McCready had no breakthrough ideas in wind energy, just a history of winning a symbolic contest. Nobody is using their human-powered airplanes. So, all in all I don't know how much good the contest did. Seems like it wasted a lot of peoples' time. I was always a fan of their human-powered flight efforts but in the end, was it not all symbolic, rather than usable solutions? Don't they produce nice radio-controlled airplanes that kill people now as their main activity? All I'm saying is this:

There are a few of us with breakthrough wind energy technology.
You hear a LOT of hype about developing breakthrough wind energy technology.
BUT
The offers of help always take the form of another assignment to the innovators to, jump through the hoops of the contest purveyors, or the purported granting agency.
I recently was contacted by the Tony Stark Challenge: "Doug you've GOT to enter this contest!"...
Great so I start obediently jumping through the hoops.
2 hours to fill out crapola on the web. Then the fun begins:
Point them to a 2-minute video on youtube.
Oh well my video are all longer than that.
I submitted a 4-minute video and told them to just watch the first 2 minutes.
Nope they need a video less than 2 minutes.
Well not having any video editing software, I was about to download some til I realized "I'm hours into obedient hoop-jumping now for a measely $15,000 top purse - what am I doing?"
OK enough.
Even the promises of ARPA-E are not enough to drive me back to accepting more "assignments".

ARPA-E if you are so smart. look and see who has the patents and who is building the machines, and contact them, and ask for YOUR assignment.
Here is MY assignment for those large organizations who purport to want to fund a solution:
Find the people with the solutions and contact them and ask what YOU can do to help then instead of giving the already-overworked innovators one more assignment.

We innovators are ALREADY doing your job! We don't get weekends off. We don't get evenings off. We work while you vacation and attend conferences. You talk while we work, doing the job you say you are doing but are not. You are well-funded while we are not. Now try getting on board with progress, instead of posturing and dishing out assignments to US!
Later
Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1632 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: High-Wind Kites, McCready, ARPA, Contests,

Doug,
 
We agree that contests are not "the way of the future". Neither is ARPA, as its mission is to militarize technology for the US DoD, & the world already has too much militarization.
 
McCready would be leading the AWE effort today had he not died soon after presenting his AWE vision at Drachen Foundation's Kite Sailing Symposium. He made acute observations, including a need for a patent pool, which might have included your IP.
 
Be reassured that many of us waste little time chasing conferences like recent wind energy event in Dallas, much less biting at X-Prizes. We do daily pioneering experiments instead.
 
I forgot to mention the number one way to handle high winds with kites- suspend them semi-captive in large arrays & let them go nuts.... aggregate stability will keep the riot flying,
 
dave
 
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1633 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: Google Searching for Answers
Harry,
 
Google is proving quite poor at figuring out how to make "renewable energy cheaper than coal". Bill Weihl, Google's overhyped "green energy czar", made some rare public comments about airborne wind energy in an interview that reveals some Makani news & ignorance of key principles-


--- On Mon, 6/14/10, Harry Valentine <harryc@ontarioeast.net
Google is searching for answers. This time it is using its weight to find energy-related solutions and specifically in the renewable realm. To this end, it has invested nearly $39 million in two wind farms that will generate 170 megawatts of electricity in North Dakota that are owned by NextEra Energy, Inc.
Google is not just a do-gooder. It's a ravenous consumer of electricity and it must find a way to become more efficient and cleaner. By placing its bets on green energy, it is attempting to understand how it works and to help create economies of scale so that it can be cost-effectively generated. The mere fact that the money is coming from its for-profit arm and not its philanthropic division indicates that it is serious.
"We've been looking at investments in renewable energy projects, like the one we just signed, that can accelerate the deployment of the latest clean energy technology while providing attractive returns to Google and more capital for developers to build additional projects," writes Rick Needham, Google's green business operations manager, in his blog.
In Google's case, it operates hundreds of thousands of servers that use tons of electricity. Most of that energy comes from the nearest power plants, which are often coal-fired. As the global leader in internet technologies, the search engine says that it can do better.
Google's quest to go green got its formal start in 2007. That's when the company announced its strategic aim to develop electricity from renewable sources that would ultimately become cheaper than that produced from coal. The enterprise has since spent millions on research and development as well as related investments in green energy. It says that it expects positive returns from those endeavors.
The basic building blocks are already in place. It has gained the experience constructing and designing large-scale data centers. The same lessons apply when it comes to expanding the use of renewable energy, it says, noting that the primary technologies are now available. They just need investment so that they can size up.

Meantime, Google.org, the company's non-profit division, has stakes in eSolar, which specializes in solar thermal power and which has shown the potential to produce utility-scale solar power. It also has an investment in Makani Power, which is building high-altitude wind energy technologies that try to better harness powerful breezes.
"If we meet this goal and large-scale renewable deployments are cheaper than coal, the world will have the option to meet a substantial portion of electricity needs from renewable sources and significantly reduce carbon emissions," says Google Co-founder Larry Page. "We expect this would be a good business for us as well."
Betting Averages
The company has set a goal of becoming carbon neutral. Most recently it joined several other high profile enterprises and environmental organizations in urging global policy makers to formally adopt such constraints. One of the key methods it has espoused is giving consumers the tools they need to see their energy consumption in real or near time. That would reduce energy usage by 15 percent, Google says.
It has therefore developed an online tool called PowerMeter that can be provided through a local utility. The online search engine's desire is to provide critical information to users. For example, it says that if just half of all American citizens cut their energy use by 10 percent, carbon reductions would equate taking 8 million cars off the road.
To do so, Google says that state public utility commissioners must facilitate the development of intelligent utilities. That involves the replacing of 40 million older meters with digitized ones that permit utilities to communicate with their customers. Likewise, it applauds federal lawmakers for allocating $4.5 billion to those new technologies.
At the same time, it is focused on reducing dependence on coal-fired power, which supplies about 40 percent of all electric generation on a global basis. The company, which attributes man-made global warming to coal plants, says that it wants to help spark the green revolution.
"We want to add something that moves these efforts toward even cheaper technologies a bit more quickly," says Dr. Larry Brilliant, executive director of Google.org. "Usual investment criteria may not deliver the super low-cost, clean, renewable energy soon enough to avoid the worst effects of climate change."
To be sure, some critics say that Google is getting into areas that are outside of its core competency. And that's not in the best interest of its shareholders, who expect the company to build a better search engine and not solve all the world's problems. By maximizing profit, the logic is that it is creating jobs and prosperity that can far exceed anything it might try as a side venture.
Google, though, has a mission to uphold -- that of a 21st Century enterprise focused on leveraging information. If arming consumers with the knowledge as to how they are using energy will encourage them to use less or demand cleaner resources, then it would fall within the company fold.
By being good citizens, they are endearing themselves to their own corporate families and to the communities where they serve. In turn, they are validating their corporate images and adding value. Others are also cognizant and notably GE that is using its "eco-imagination" campaign while the world's largest institutional investor, CalPERS, says that its socially-minded investments are enhancing returns.
Google is not betting the farm. It's just making investments in key technologies that most recently include two wind farms. That's capital that the company says will help facilitate the renewable energy movement.

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1634 From: dave santos Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Control Engineering for AWE
Modern Control Engineering is still greatly challenged by complex highly nonlinear dynamical systems with many inputs & outputs. Anyone who deeply studies the problem of automating kite energy soon finds that while kites can can be controlled for long periods, such control is not guaranteed, & any kite eventually finds a way to crash. We work on faith that daunting AWE automation challenges will yield to persistent study, for there is no equivalent success story yet anywhere in the history of control.
 
Kite control needs to be robust, optimal, tractable, transparent, & scalable. Robust means reliable & that ordinary changes in the wind & kite set-up do not crash the system. Optimal means that the control system need not work too hard for the desired output, for example, servos do not constantly churn in normal operation. Tractable means that the system can adequately compute its solutions in realtime. Transparent means you can easily look into the system & figure out what is going on. Scalable means that modular kite units can be aggregated in large numbers to work in coordination, such as dense non-interfering arrays & flocking behaviors.
 
Model Predictive Control (MPC) is a style of control engineering that looks at the state of a system while consulting a model to predict an optimal control strategy. Its been likened to the function of headlights at night, where a brighter light reaches father for more certain direction. Models take many forms, but a state-space or state-machine in clean matrix form is desirable. The ultimate model is a complete look-up table where every state has a correct control response specified, but this is only fully practical for situations like sailing by a tide-table or toy worlds like tic-tac-toe. Look-up (search) is very fast compared to systems that must compute an unknown solution in a vast state-space.
 
Non-Linear Model Predictive Control (NMPC) extends MPC to address effects like chaos. This is a fashionable paradigm in kite control, from Leuven to Torino, but don't be fooled by the reams of preliminary equations bandied about, we are still far from any adequate kite model & characterization of the chaos. Progress will consist of large high-dimensional real-world wind data sets applied to realistic kite models rich with failure-mode states to actively avoid.
  
At present effective complex kite control is only practical by human piloting & supervision assisted by ad-hoc classical control loops. Embodied situated logic methods (inherent stabilities;"training wheels") are key expedients. Likely AWE control winners will be early fielded systems able to generate revenue while evolving toward full automation.
 
 
fariIP/coopIP
 
=======================
 
.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1635 From: christopher carlin Date: 6/14/2010
Subject: Re: Control Engineering for AWE
Dave,

Don't know if you're a controls guy by trade or have just read a lot. Anyway I spent 40 years in the business and from what I understand of kites of the size and complexity we're talking about I think the controls problem is challenging to say the least. Not only are the kites not easy to model but the turbulent atmosphere is very difficult to deal with analytically particularly if you're trying to guarantee crash free operation over a long period of time. And of course the whole state space thing is based on a linear world. NLMPC is a fine idea conceptually but very challenging for the devices we're talking about. Should you seriously start to develop something I'd be interesting in kibitzing it a bit. My basic advice is to develop a kite which for the most part flies itself and only needs modest effort by the control system - for example reefing in strong winds.

Chris 
On Jun 14, 2010, at 8:20 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1636 From: Doug Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Control Engineering for AWE
Reminds me of a Jules Verne novel, endlessly revealing the intricacies of fantastical machines that may point to the desired direction, but miss the mark, never actually working at all, like a cannon to shoot men to the moon.
Yup, Google would seem to be playing the role of the typical newbie bystander, trying to sound like they are analyzing the 1000-year-old industrial wind turbine industry ahead of the curve, while in actuality they're merely getting up to speed on what has long been known. Well what can I say: Google, I'm here if you need me.
It is indeed funny to see them go from the stratosphere to musing whether higher towers for regular turbines would be possible. Maybe in the end they should just buy a turbine from someone who knows how to build them.
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1637 From: Doug Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Wikipedia to lead AWE effort ?
Dave Santo's had a pretty good pun with his "Google SEARCHES for answers" headline. (get it? Google "searches"?) Kind of makes you think:
1) Why would people think a search engine company would have insights into the juxtaposition of wind energy and aviation? Do they have expertise in either field.?
2) Ever notice how you use Google out of habit, but it always takes you immediately to Wikipedia? Maybe Wikipedia is where the answers are. maybe Wikipedia should be the go-to company for airbourne wind energy!
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1638 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Wikipedia to lead AWE effort ?
This just in: search engine Bing buys stake in USWINDLABS and dominates market.
-brooks


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1639 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Offshore wind demo?
Perhaps some of the fly-gen dev teams could take advantage of this opp for a demo?

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=355

- Dimitri
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1640 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: Offshore wind demo?
When obtaining a DUNS number online, the wait can be as long as 30 days. When requesting a DUNS number by phone and paying an investigation fee, it is issued immediately.
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1641 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2010
Subject: Re: Offshore wind demo?
Dimitri,
 
Maybe you jest about marine flygens, as saltwater exposure is particularly problematic to generators & avionics, but not a big deal for generators & controls heavily sealed or kept inside a ship.
 
All companies known active in marine AWE seem surfacegen (~groundgen) oriented. SkySails has its surfacegen patent & is supposed to have backdriven electric ship propulsion in generator mode. SkyMill has specifically targeted offshore with surfacegen. KiteShip has its surfacegen based marine AWE studies.  Dave Lang, Park Chul, & Kim Jongchul have proposed large scale offshore surfacegen AWE, as scientists. This is not to say marine flygens are impossible. KiteLab Ilwaco has tested kites & paravanes up to 15 miles offshore. DOE should consider current & wave energy as offshore alternatives.
 
It would be appropriate for AWEIA to draft an AWE industry position with references to submit on behalf of the whole field. Experimentation should be broad-based & not limited to any single concept.
 
daveS
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1642 From: Doug Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
Hi I just wanted to point out what I see happening on this list a lot:
Imagine we're back in 1865 when Jules Verne published "From The Earth to The Moon". Well, he sure got a lot of things right. But the main thing, the idea that they would use a cannon, was wrong.
It seemed obvious at the time that a cannon would be used because that was the common art with which they were familiar then. However, if you were to spend too much time contemplating exactly how the cannon would be cleaned between uses, how long the fuse had to be so people could have time to get away, etc. you'd be wasting a lot of time with nonsense, since the basic question of how many G's an astronaut could withstand had not been adequately addressed, and we can see now that the occupants would have been crushed in the initial takeoff blast.

I use this only to illustrate that endless talk of detailed minutiae regarding how to handle kites and how to capture the power from lines reeling in and out, and all that sort of stuff - based on what is familiar to kite flyers today, may be as off-the-mark and misguided as worrying about cleaning the barrel of Jules Verne's cannon between firings!
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1643 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
I remember reading Verne's book when I was 13, and being flabbergasted that he had his space capsule come to a complete rest at the point where the gravity from the earth and moon were equal, before happening to fall moonward.  His astronauts discovered that they had coasted to a stop (within a few days) because they had suddenly become weightless.  So, they celebrated by setting out some wine glasses in midair and Pouring Wine Into Them!  They had a generous three meters of deceleration at the moon - this was not entirely disregarded. 

Anyway, veering back toward progress, I was surprised to learn that all kites crash without human guidance.  Has anyone tried adding a gyroscope to their control linkages to give them a sense of "UP"?  I'd been assuming that a fairly strong tendency to get reeled in to land on a post would suffice for automatic launching and retrieving according to wind strength.

Bob Stuart

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1644 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannons for spaceflight: Jules Verne v. Wan Hu
Doug,
 
Long before Verne, Wàn Hù, in the Ming Dynasty (c. 1500), correctly understood that rockets would be a basis for manned space travel, so he built his own rocket chair, which was a bad idea. Verne was also right on many counts, he did not try to build a human-cannon, perhaps his cannon fancy is more akin to thinking multi-rotors on a drive-shaft is the most promising idea to get to upper winds.
 
Those who know "how to handle kites and how to capture the power from lines reeling in and out, and all that sort of stuff " are naturally excited by the many successful AWE experiments in recent years. Any demo on your principles to about a thousand feet altitude is sure to impress. This is the median altitude where AWE industry competition is currently focused.
 
BTW, given the urgent need for new renewables, a rough global consensus exists to cast the widest possible research net, & to comparatively include all plausible concepts, including yours, so take heart...
 
daveS
 
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1645 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1646 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: All kites crash (?)
Bob,
 
Human piloting of kites is also not guaranteed, kite masters still crash, as do aviators of every kind. Any aircraft must land before crashing as "what goes up must come down" pretty much holds. At least good kites crash without much hazard or damage.
 
A single line kite already has a sense of up (pendulum stability) & its tuned yaw damping behavior is in fact "gyroscopic" physics. "Up" is not the only critical dimension; an aircraft can crash tail-first, as did Wiley Post with Will Rogers aboard, & kites must mind tether state as well.
 
The problem with onboard active control is when actuation is eventually overwhelmed by common rogue turbulence events, like a virga gustnado. A kiteplane can't carry ever-beefier actuators without the weight penalty itself promoting crashes.
 
daveS
 

u, 6/17/10, Bob Stuart <bobstuart@sasktel.net

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1647 From: Dan Parker Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
Very kewl Skywalker!
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 20:41:42 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne

 







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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1648 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Kite drawings online
Yeah!Yeah!Yeah!Yeah!Yeah!Yeah!
2006 to 2009 drawings by Dave Santos
About 700 pages! And some pages seem to be a peek into an entire book alone.
 
I can now meet my Maker!  
What a joyous moment!
Congratulations, DaveS.
A real robust blessing to our Age.
I will study each corner of your expression and carry the matter near and far; it will take time. There was Archimedes and Michelangelo and now Santos!
 
I can clip and rotate, enlarge and reduce.    I will clear with you any doings.
How neat that the entire world has access to the flow!
I hope I can get beyond page one   : )     I will note what flashes for me, and when you might, you will have comment.      It will take time to unfold the treasures in your works.
 
Deep thanks, Dave.
 
Joe Faust
KITESA
Kite Information and Technology Exchange Society of America
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1649 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
Thanks for that Joe. You just reminded me of the movement going on now to make a long barrel gun they are designing for launching satellites and other payloads in a more environmentally friendly way. Just goes to show that what was old and obsolete is new again.
-brooks


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1650 From: harry valentine Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Google (again)
So Google's chief of renewable energy seeks tower-based wind turbines with the hub at 200-meters elevation. The tower will have to be built in a valley with tension cables from the valley walls providing some structural support. On the other hand, Google could evaluate some cable suspended turbine designs with rotation centers at 200m about the valley floor.
 
 
Harry



 



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1651 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (?)
I love a list where one can be advised to go fly a kite without offense. My own experience with dual line flying was rather brief, because I didn't respond to correct things when the kite thought it was pulling up, but was actually pulling sideways, and rolling into the ground, somewhat like an aircraft with neither artificial nor actual horizon for reference.  A gyro can be just a few pounds, and do its work by the trim-tab effect, perhaps using wing-warping for extreme vectors if necessary.

I looked up Wiley Post, and a contemporary newsreel had him diving straight in after loosing the engine on takeoff.  I'm sure there is some pretty fancy turbulence up there, but can't we get an artificial wind for stability just by high-speed line retrieval?  My current hope is to power a long-stroke water pump directly, so I'd always have the weight of the water handy to drag the kite down if conditions changed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1652 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (Wiley Post tail-stall to nose-dive)
Bob,
 
There is no direct newsreel of the crash, but the airplane did hit nose first. My memory of the Inuit native eyewitness report is that the overweight plane stalled in a nose-high attitude & fell tail first, the point being that a "sense of up" cannot by itself prevent many common aircraft crashes.
 
This account ( www.acepilots.com/post.html ) agrees with both tail-stall & nose-crash:
 
"Larry Rivers suggests this scenario:
 
The boys were skud running in strange and unforgiving country. They were heavy and worried. Mostly their attention was outside the aircraft, watching the contrast between water and land along the coast so they did not lose ground reference with gray fog on gray water. They were running on the forward tanks, intending to refuel them in Barrow. Since they had poor maps and were flying on pilotage they probably were concerned about how much further they had to fly in that crud. When they saw people, they landed for directions, (we all do it) and probably considered it a place they could stop if they had too... but... they learned Barrow was just a few miles away. Rather than figure out how to tie down the aircraft when there are no trees, and set up camp (unpack the plane) they decided to go on. ("Will, my boy, its only 15 miles, I think we can make it, and then we will have fuel, a warm bed, weather services and tie downs..lets push on north, and we will wait there for better weather.")
They jumped back in the plane, were still concerned about weather and worried that they might not see good enough to get from the lake back to the coast, which they needed to follow to Barrow. Minds were on other things and they forgot to check fuel and switch to a fresh tank. (we have all done that too) In the air they intended to stay low, so they could see the ground and not lose ground reference in the ice fog. Minds on everything except fuel...then the engine quit. Having just taken off they were not up to cruise speed, and did not have enough wind over the horizontal to prevent tail stall, and not enough altitude to dump the nose even if they had. In that position, they were nearly behind the power curve on take off (we have all done that too I hate to admit), and when the engine quit there was nothing available to hold the nose down. It would have pitched up steeply, stalled immediately, and the aircraft would have come down. Probably in a tail slip first until wind got on the rudder and weather vane would have made it rotate, in which case it could have hit nose first. "
 
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1653 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: All kites crash (?)
Cool idea on the long stroke water pump reversal mode Bob, sort of like regenerative braking on EVs.
-brooks


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1654 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Propeller characteristics
Attachments :
    Can someone on list precise what are characteristics of the joined 10 inches propeller:pitch (inches),profile etc.?
     
    DaveS do you know if there are on market good small light (about 0,5 m diameter) propeller as wind turbine (with for example 60% Betz' limit?)
     
    With thanks
     
    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1655 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
    Bob Stuart wrote:
    ...
    Hi Bob! Most kites do have a sense of updue to gravity, but this is
    relatively weak and easily overcome by asymetrical forces when the kite
    is moving or the wind is strong. Therefore dynamic kites have to be
    controled either by visual means or line angle sensors or something like
    GPS.

    Reeling in is easy in a moderate steady wind, but think what happens when there is a lull: the kite overshoots and has to be flown in figures while being reeled in. If there is still no wind the last small distance before parking on the post, it becomes very difficult. As a complete lull is
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1656 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Google (again) leading to Superturbine(R)
    A good example of "all roads lead to Superturbine".
    Yes suspension across canyons is good.
    Leaving the generators and gearboxes etc. at the canyon walls is better, then removing the towers is even possible, but not absolutely necessary, and adding many rotors yields a Cross-Canyon Superturbine(R).
    I have had all this stuff worked out for some time. It's just a matter of implementing these solutions now. Like I said Google: All you gotta do is ask. Unlike Google, I've been at this for many years.
    Doug Selsam
    http://www.USWINDLABS.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1657 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics

    Invitation to all members:

    File links on propeller and bladed turbines in:

    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/links/Propellers_001276867805

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1658 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
    Hello,

    This email message is a notification to let you know that
    a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
    group.

    File : /Ampyx/20100609Ampyx_financing.pdf
    Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description : June 16, 2010, news release regarding financing

    You can access this file at the URL:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/Ampyx/20100609Ampyx_financing.pdf

    To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
    http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

    Regards,

    joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1659 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Ampyx has some happy news!

    PRESS RELEASE

     

    Energy Startup Ampyx Power secures further financing

     

    The Hague, 16.06.2010 – The energy technology startup company Ampyx Power has succeeded in obtaining second round financing. The Norwegian energy company Statkraft, Europe's biggest producer of renewable energy and Byte, a Dutch IT company both have agreed to invest in equal equity shares. This will allow Ampyx Power to continue working well into the year 2011.

     

    Ampyx Power develops a straightforward Airborne Wind Energy system, which successfully utilizes high altitude winds for energy production. The PowerPlane system uses a glider plane to unwind a winch during flight and thereby propel a generator on the ground. The expected costs of this energy production are significantly lower than those of commonly used wind mills and comparable to grey energy production.

     

    Statkraft's and Byte's new investment deal completes the financing requested for full automation of electricity production with the company's current 10kW PowerPlane prototype.

     

    Bas Lansdorp, General Director and co-founder of Ampyx Power comments:"We are very proud and happy to have found two great partners who believe in Ampyx Power. The Statkraft investment in particular is very encouraging and sends a clear market signal concerning the future potential of the PowerPlane system."

     

    Ampyx Power plans to demonstrate fully automated power production in late 2010. The development of a commercial 1MW PowerPlane is expected to be finalized in 2013.

     

     

    CONTACT

     

    Ampyx Power

    Bas Lansdorp                             

    Managing director

    Tel.: +31 (0)6 24547971

    bas@ampyxpower.com

     

     

    Byte

    Gruus van Woerkom

    Managing director

    Tel: +31 (0)20 6255556

    gruus@byte.nl

     

     

    Statkraft

    Anne Joeken

    Head of Communications

    Tel.: +49 (0)163 9611404

    anne.joeken@statkraft.de

     


    Ampyx Power

    Ampyx Power is a pioneering Dutch technology start-up company which develops a straightforward Airborne Wind Energy system called PowerPlane. The system successfully utilizes high altitude winds for energy production. Ampyx Power has a licence from the Dutch airspace authority for a test field in the North of the Netherlands and expects the development of a commercial 1MW PowerPlane to be finalized in 2013. The company has 7 full time employees and is located in The Hague.

     

    Byte

    Byte is a Dutch webhosting company with a strong focus on clustering, performance and security. Byte has a broad customer base in the Dutch opensource community and is the number one hosting provider for the popular Joomla CMS and the Magento e-commerce software. Byte operates more than 22.000 domains.

     

    Statkraft

    Statkraft is Europe's largest renewable energy company. The group develops and generates hydropower, wind power, gas power, solar power and district heating, and is a major player on the European power exchanges. Statkraft also develops osmotic power and other innovative energy solutions. In 2009 Statkraft posted gross operating revenues of EUR 2.9 billion. The group employs 3,400 staff in more than 20 countries.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1660 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Wind Power Generation via Fast Flying Kites

    Windenergienutzung mit schnell fliegenden Flugdrachen

    Wind Power Generation via Fast Flying Kites

    Survey of some projects and methods in graphic essay in 77 slides in PDF format.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1661 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Pierre,
     
    Model airplane props come in a wide range of diameters & pitches. Unfortunately they suffer in performance by various problems when used in wind-driven (turbine) mode. This is a major topic for companies seeking to use propellers in dual motor/generator mode. Full betz efficiency is not practical, expect more like 40%. Pessimism pays.
     
    For experiments do not hesitate to carve your own blades from wood or foam with tape reinforcement.
     
    There are some detailed old posts on this issue & Theo recently wrote a nice short summary of the camber (handed foil curvature) issue on the AYRS forum-
     
     
    doug & robyn schrieb:
    It's not a case of fixed camber but of zero camber. This will work as
    you suggest Doug, but the symetrical profile cannot be loaded as much as
    a cambered asymetrical one, therefore you need a bigger rotor and the
    efficiency could be less in spite of this. Also possible would be an
    ogival section, but this would need to be flipped over when changing
    modes. My program PropSim (written in BASIC) would lend itself to
    explore these things, but I'm too lazy/busy at present!

    Cheers, Theo


    --- On Fri, 6/18/10, Pierre Benhaiem <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1662 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Superturbine concept and farm of wind turbines
    Generally the space between wind turbines is at least 3 times rotor
    diameter to let a good "new" flow for each turbine downwind.

    On Doug Selsam's Superturbine the space between rotors is by far lower.

    Do you think Superturbine concept (alpha angle) would be applicable on
    farms of conventional wind turbines?

    If yes it would be possible to win of the space on the ground and to
    improve global power/km².

    PierreB




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1663 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Ampyx has some happy news!
    This is a major new development, a large savvy renewables company like Statkraft investing in AWE R & D. Nobody is better at high-wind windpower than the Norwegians. They have a world-class opportunity to string cableways across the augmented winds of its coastal fjords & run AWECS elements of unprecedented performance & low cost. In some cases these plants can directly support pumped hydro for ideal capacity leveling.
     
    Lets hope Ampyx can open up this golden opportunity to the global AWE community in ways the previous AWE investment has failed to do. Note that Ampyx is a surfacegen company with plays in both kiteplanes & parafoils. Its also Allister's favorite AWE start & he has an inside view.
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1664 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    DaveS,

    Thanks;the joined 25 cm propeller with the precedent message has by far the best output (32% of Betz limit) among all propellers I tried.Other plane propellers,13x6,or 15x8,or 22x10 (APC,maybe not enough rigid) are only 10% of Betz limit.Here is a link LOGICIEL CALCUL eolienne hydrolienne turbine .Do you thing such a logiciel would be usefull to determinate a good profile for high speed wind energy propeller?

    PierreB
    NB:not grudge for Mondial Football Mexico-France! 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1665 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Ampyx has some happy news!
    Great new

    PierreB


    --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@... wrote:
    Ampyx
    equal
    into
    costs
    commonly
    to
    2013.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1666 From: Dan Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Salute Pierre,

    I am not sure just where you are going with this Pierre, but I am not sure if you are familar with the SpiralAirfoil concept which I believe comes very close to the Betz limit. SpiralAirfoil.com

    Thanks Dan'l

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1667 From: Dan Parker Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Salute Pierre,
     
                 Thank you for the wonderfull link
    LOGICIEL CALCUL eolienne hydrolienne turbine 
     
                                                                                 Dan'l 

    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
    Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:16:40 +0200
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Propeller characteristics

     
    DaveS,

    Thanks;the joined 25 cm propeller with the precedent message has by far the best output (32% of Betz limit) among all propellers I tried.Other plane propellers,13x6, or 15x8,or 22x10 (APC,maybe not enough rigid) are only 10% of Betz limit.Here is a link LOGICIEL CALCUL eolienne hydrolienne turbine .Do you thing such a logiciel would be usefull to determinate a good profile for high speed wind energy propeller?

    PierreB
    NB:not grudge for Mondial Football Mexico-France! 



    Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1668 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Poor Man's AWECS Turrets
    AWECs typically rotate at the surface with wind direction. An exception is kite arrays where every individual kite rotates aloft on a short swivel leader.
     
    The Golden Age of Kites in the 19th century saw development of cool turret houses, containing powerful kite winches & miles of piano wire, where operators could monitor & operate protected from weather. These turret houses were typically a "lazy susan", a circle of wheels rolling on a circular track. A related earlier solution was the post mill, a small rotating windmill set on a post & moved by hand. Modern heavy duty turrets emerged on military platforms, cranes, draw bridges, & such. Many are potentially suited for AWECs & available as scrap, but the original capital cost of a large machine turret is high.
     
    There are super cheap options. Simply anchor the kite & let the the tether twist as the weather patterns determine. Excess twist is taken out manually during calms. Next in complexity is to add a swivel to the tether, which serves well where twist is frequent. Swivels are a topic in themselves for a future tech note.
     
    Many AWECs have ground equipment to rotate & some sort of carriage is required. On smooth water, an artificial pond even, a moored raft is all that is needed & in chop a boat anchored bow to windward serves. A quick high quality turret is to bury an vehicle axle with one wheel sticking up. Often playground merry-go-rounds have been made this way.
     
    Another simple carriage turret can be made with an axle & wheel. The axle end without the wheel is anchored & the wheel is free to roll in a circle. Equipment can hang as a pendulum mass from the axle or wheel hub. Swivels, bushings, & bearings are incorporated as needed.
     
    A versatile carriage turret is made like a chariot with two wheels on an axle anchored mid-axle. A Y-bridle or yoke from the axle connects the tether & provides the leverage for following wind direction. A house or housing can be mounted on the axle & all of the functions of a full mechanical turret are possible. Boat trailers make ideal turrets of this sort & are abundant as salvage. Simply chain the anchor to the beefed up axle centerpoint & let the tongue be the kite tether lead. A fine winch house can be built on it. Small two wheeled camper trailers could be modified into turret houses. Two-wheel carts anchored by the axle center make fine experimental platforms.
     
    Giant carousels have to be skeletal truss & cable affairs to be economic. Vehicles on a circular track or path allow wide diameter AWECS geometries at lower capital cost, but with dragging hazard. A mobile transport AWECS might be set to steer in a circle as "parked". Earth berm rings or even simple shallow pits allow winch vehicles to park on a slope with great purchase against tug force. The cheap method of large diameter AWECS surface rotation is to belay multi-tethers around an anchor circle.
     
    Anchors have been well covered previously, but its worth noting that the rotation requirement drives optimal anchor design. Soil anchors might be arrayed as a small circle. Dead-man plates & beams buried flush can keep an anchor point fixed. Buried trusses & spaced anchors can underpin track.
     
    fairIP/coopIP

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1669 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: cannon reamers for spaceflight: Jules Verne
    Bob Stuart wrote:
    ...
    Hi Bob! Most kites do have a sense of updue to gravity, but this is
    relatively weak and easily overcome by asymetrical forces when the kite
    is moving or the wind is strong. Therefore dynamic kites have to be
    controled either by visual means or line angle sensors or something like
    GPS.

    Reeling in is easy in a moderate steady wind, but think what happens when there
    is a lull: the kite overshoots and has to be flown in figures while being reeled
    in. If there is still no wind the last small distance before parking on the
    post, it becomes very difficult. Maybe we need "launch and retrieval" blimps
    which ferry kites to and from the higher velocity airstreams...

    Cheers, Theo Schmidt


    PS This super list would be more useful if people would take care to snip off
    superfluous quotes when posting...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1670 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Pierre,
     
    While conventional turbine rotor/blade design is important, except for ultralightweight construction methods, its a fairly mature topic & not the core challenge in AWE, which is to integrate key new inventive leaps into a revolutionary package. This Logiciel is a nice tool in a very big toolbox.
     
    Exciting opportunities in prop/turbine motor/gen design are in completely new features like reversible camber, as found already in fish fins...
     
    daveS
     
     
     
     


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1671 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    The KAPLAN hydraulic turbine is used to generate electric power as well as to pump water uphill at several hydroelectric power dams . . . . these beasts are HUGE (massive diameter).
     
     
    Given the ratio of water density to air density, an air propeller that could EFFICIENTLY serve both propulsion and power generation modes would have to be huge . . . there is an experimental helicopter using such technology.
     
     
    To improve propulsive efficiency, it is essential to move massive volumes of air at lower velocity as opposed to smaller volumes of air at equal density at higher velocity.
     
     
    Perhaps one guideline for wind energy developers is to capture as much moving air volume as possible to simultaneously raise both efficiency and output . . . which is exactly what is happening with tower-mounted wind turbines. HOWEVER, the giant turbines have a problem in high velocity, high-altitude winds . . . where smaller technology at lower efficiency has the potential to generate greater output at lower cost.
     
    Harry



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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1672 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Several modern propulsion propellers are of the swept-back design as opposed to the straight-blade design . . . . higher efficiency at higher RPM and greater surface contact area between the airstream and the blade. Perhaps this concept may be applied to wind power generation, both tower based and airborne technologies.
     
    Harry

     

    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: santos137@yahoo.com
    Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:21:08 -0700
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Propeller characteristics

     
    Pierre,
     
    While conventional turbine rotor/blade design is important, except for ultralightweight construction methods, its a fairly mature topic & not the core challenge in AWE, which is to integrate key new inventive leaps into a revolutionary package. This Logiciel is a nice tool in a very big toolbox.
     
    Exciting opportunities in prop/turbine motor/gen design are in completely new features like reversible camber, as found already in fish fins...
     
    daveS
     
     
     
     





    Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games Play Now!
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1673 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    You may be referring to the new turboprops, designed for higher efficiency than high-bypass (ducted fan) jets.  Those blades are shaped for low noise at near transonic tip speeds.

    Propellers are lovely objects, but you have to change the airfoil camber direction to get an efficient turbine. 

    Bob Stuart

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1674 From: dave santos Date: 6/18/2010
    Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
    Attachments :
      Harry, Theo, Bob,
       
      The engineered swept prop/turbine blade is slowly converging on an ideal logarithmic scimitar planform as seen before on this list in the bluefin tuna pectoral-
       
       
      I am cobbling an analogue with a structural core of a couple of hundred individually tapered, curved, & interleaved bamboo splints. It is a very thin (hot) section & will reverse camber once it has the root mechanism. The progress image [attached] shows the rib core after sanding to smooth it, as suggested by Prof Tinney of UTexas Aerospace Engineering. Do not let a dog see this grisly looking object.
       
      I may re-replicate the general fin-surface micro-rib texture with brushed paste. Its still missing the fine long tip, which blends into a hair-fine micro-structure. The blade will be bench tested in Prof. Sirohi's new rotor testing facility at UTexas AE. It should show low drag & high lift across a wide range on either tack. 
       
      The easy reverse camber wing/blade is a fabric sail, adding battens as needed for speed,
       
      daveS
       
      PS to Joe, please file attached jpg with the original bluefin
       
       
       


        @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1675 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 6/19/2010
      Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
      Pierre BENHAIEM schrieb:
      <http://www.heliciel.com/logiciel-calcul-helice-aile/Logiciel%20calcul%20eolienne%20hydrolienne%20turbine%20Heliciel.htm That's quite a site, thank you for the link! I don't know this program.
      I'd like to try it out but am unlikely to at the prices starting from
      241 Euros. I wrote a simple program myself once. It is described here:
      http://www.umwelteinsatz.ch/IBS/propsim.pdf and the source code is here:
      http://www.ihpva.eu/HParchive/PDF/23-v7n2-1988.pdf or here:
      http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/23-v7n2-1988.pdf

      I can send you a compiled version per email. It was designed for
      low-speed propellers but I think wind generation is still mainly
      "low-speed". Unfortunately the program doesn't do turbines. It would be
      relatively easy to modify it to do this, but I havn't got round to it
      yet and couldn't get anybody else interested.

      I found that the exact profile seems relatively unimportant. My program
      uses an old veteran, the Clark Y, which has one side flat.

      Cheers, Theo Schmidt

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      PLEASE EDIT YOUR QUOTES -- PLEASE EDIT YOUR QUOTES -- PLEASE EDIT YOUR
      QUOTES -- PLEASE EDIT YOUR QUOTES
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1676 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/19/2010
      Subject: Re: Propeller characteristics
      Attachments :
        Theo,

        Thanks for pdf links.
        I put again joined photo of a 25 cm diameter propeller I measured for 32%/Betz limit.Before furthering searches I would know this propeller profile an pitch and reference.I asked to distributor Altaya but without response.
        High speed is about 20 to 30 m/s and more (kite speed).

        Dan'SpiralAirfoil can be interesting if it is light and easy for installation on a kite.  

        PierreB




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