Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group. AWES15959to16008

Page 214 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15959	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15960	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15961	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15962	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15963	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15964	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Portable Mountain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15965	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Portable Mountain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15966	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15967	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15968	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15969	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15970	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Reaction Ferries

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15971	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Germinated while flying in a kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15972	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15973	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15974	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15975	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15976	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15977	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15978	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15979	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15980	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15981	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15982	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: isotropic heaxgonal lift frame with jitter

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15983	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: mesh tag line stretching

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15984	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15985	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15986	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15987	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15988	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15989	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15990	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15991	From: Christian Harrell	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Looping Parafoil session passing 1 week and 100 flight hour mark

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15992	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15993	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15994	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15995	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15996	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: A CONTROL ARRANGEMENT FOR A WIND POWERED VEHICLE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15997	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Three from SUZHOU VOCATIONAL UNIVERSITY state instruction

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15998	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Gunther Claas, Christoph Gunther. Pumping AWES groundgen.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15999	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16000	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: IPPOLITO, Massimo on WIND ENERGY CONVERSION SYSTEM WITH KITES TOWING

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16001	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16002	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: William Hampton instructs energy extraction using a kite system; gro

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16003	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16004	From: benhaiemp	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Relational

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16005	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: William Hampton instructs energy extraction using a kite system;

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16006	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Relational

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16007	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paper study: Optimal Cross-Wind Towing and Power Generation with

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16008	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15959	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Not sure about what I should do ....

but regards certification of lifting / suspension equipment for rock fixing a line... That all exists under Standards such as Certification: CE EN 959, UIAA

e.g. with this pack of petzl anchor resin and expanding rock bolt with hanger (Coeur Goujon)

A kite network will resist any load fall ... but how definitely and reliably in all conditions... leaves me unconvinced that current overhead load hoisting regulation will provide an easy means for any
civil or structural engineer to approve his design

pro bono or not.

If person or load hoisting is actuated from the ground then an extra layer of safety comes from the fact that...a load dropping too fast yet still belayed under a kite system, can be slowed further by being hoisted toward the kite network using spare line capacity below the bridle/hoist pulley ... Thus flaring a landing.

The kites on feeling the extra load due to accelerated mass will resist fall harder.

cc4.0 nc by sa plus open IP pool

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15960	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

An artist features the BAT image:

http://www.nextnature.net/author/francesca/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15961	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

The trick with getting a certified structural engineer (a PE in US) to approve an anchor design is to impress them with your knowledge and diligence. You need a carefully calculated max-load and a large added safety factor (

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15962	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15963	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

JoeF,

Agreed that dragging is useful in many forms, but the specific issue was safe anchoring for preventing dragging hazard (in Rod's granite field). I should have made more clear the advice was in response to this need.

daveS

On Monday, November 10, 2014 8:57 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15964	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Portable Mountain

Attachments :

From: Joe Faust

Date: Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Broken links on energykitesystems.net
To:

Chris of UK

Thank you much, Chris.

Joe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15965	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Portable Mountain

Repair of the missing image:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/PortableMountain/PortableMountain001.jpg


			http://www.energykitesystems.net/PortableMountain/Portab...
			View on www.energykitesyste...	Preview by Yahoo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15966	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

DougS has following comment:

______________________________________

Thanks for reminding us of the Altaeros project.

I would just ask people to note the process that takes place here, where press-releases get repeated, like the children's game "telephone", whereby an original message is converted to a different message, by sequential inaccurate repetition. If the original message was inaccurate, it only gets worse as it is repeated.

The headline of this topic implies that "Alaska" HAS deployed a BAT.
The article you flagged says something different:
"will be tested for the first time for 18 months over the area of Fairbanks in Alaska"

It doesn't give a start date.

Realizing it is only by reading between the lines of the myriad of press-release-type-articles that we've even discerned that THERE IS NO BAT CURRENTLY DEPLOYED IN ALASKA, and that the project has apparently been, according to one article, pushed forward to "next year", I think we should be careful about just repetitively repeating press-releases.

And saying a BAT "will be tested for the first time for 18 months" in this article must be taken with a grain of salt, since nobody can say how long something that "will be tested for the first time" will remain operational. 18 days? Depends if there is any wind...

As usual, they talk of the future as though it has already happened.

Many people could point out that new types of wind energy systems usually exhibit problems, often serious ones, that preclude daily operation, let alone 18 months of operation, when first tested. I guess if we are to take all these authors' interpretations of Altaeros' press-releases as gospel, there is a blimp with a hole in it powering several homes in Alaska right now. That does not seem to be the case, but, really, we know nothing but what we read in these arcane second-hand press-release articles. We're really just guessing with NO solid information AT ALL.

It seems that there is a tendency in journalism and on the Yahoo list to simply take any old expired press release from yesteryear as the whole story, treat it as factual and repeat it, even when we know better. (Whalebumps?) Is that because we're comfortable in a world of fantasy, and have no interest in what is really going on? Is this one more case of "Don't confuse me with the facts"? There is a saying in "journalism": "never let the facts get in the way of a good story!" It kind of reminds me of seeing the Magenn rotating blimp as "the icon" (Is this a joke?) of airborne wind energy, long after it had been determined that the idea was a non-starter. We were SAYING that Magenn didn't have a chance, while promoting AWE using Magenn images as the main attraction. And that blimp supporting a wind turbine on Mars. Similarly we now endlessly repeat last year's inaccurate press-releases regarding Altaeros as though it is in daily operation when in reality we have no evidence of any buoyant wind turbine deployed or even on the ground in a shipping container, anywhere in Alaska.

Just sayin'... :)

~ Doug Selsam

=====================================

JoeF comments on DougS' comment above:

One of the things occurring is a watching and study of the awareness of AWE in the literature; of course, one is to keep a critical eye open for journalistic errors; may we assume from here forward that forum participants are watchful for such matters?

Best of critical thinking and awareness of mismatches and also what is fact,

Lift,

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15967	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Doug is wrong to think everybody on the AWES list believes obvious journalistic error or corporate hype, rather than judge tangible results. We link to naive coverage and hype only as a matter of record, but primarily focus on developing useful knowledge (an aspect which Doug neglects). We are patient with developer timelines, rather than fuss in vain over delays, which are often just the normal manifest pace of pioneering research. Journalistic error is not our core problem, but a distraction. Doug adds very little value in this aspect, until he fully explains how his decade of ST over-promotion happened, and why nothing resulted.

Bruno was only presenting an Altaeros concept rendering of a remote construction application. The wind expert take to note that small scale windpower does not load-match well to such a situation, unless some means of buffered storage is added. Its the same fallacy as Doug supposing the magic AWE demo is to power a single off-grid house (which Doug would do himself if he was serious about the idea). Most AWE developers are too focused on the big game of scaling up to economic utility-scale, rather than babysit a dinky demo, which would likely not satisfy Doug in any case (his highest opinion seems reserved for GoogleX-Makani, with the most hired-PhD participation of any team).

On Monday, November 10, 2014 11:18 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15968	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Thanks for all the advice and warning...
However can't agree with this ...
dynamic off-axis loadings are properly avoided (ie. that the anchor is not being strained sideways, levering itself in bending-fatigue cycles)
We have to anchor for the full hemisphere above the anchor.
One cool device could use 3 or more strain gauge bolts angled into a suitability tension tollerant dense rock medium. The 3 bolt strains can triangulate to describe the anchor tension vector... Allowing smaller control forms.
Cc4.0 NC BY SA AWES open pool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15969	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Rod,

The point to agree on is that proper design handles otherwise harmful loadings. I was not stating anything else with regard to fatigue and strain factors. Of course different rigs impose different working geometries, and I made no presumptions about your exact case (except the high-load granite-anchor aspect).

Proper design in this instance means the commonly required fairlead function is not neglected. Many tricks work, but a few links of heavy chain at the anchor will adapt to whatever loading directions occur, with a high safety factor and inspectability at low cost (use salvage chain of a known quality bought at scrap value),

daveS

On Monday, November 10, 2014 11:59 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15970	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Reaction Ferries

Reaction ferry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


			Reaction ferry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A reaction ferry is a cable ferry that uses the reaction of the current of a river against a fixed tether to propel the vessel across the river. Such ferries operat...
			View on en.wikipedia.org	Preview by Yahoo

The reaction ferry, ancient as she is, may be touched by the contemporary K3. Water or air, reaction ferries my mature to be AWES that produce electricity or do other works besides carry people and goods across rivers. Reaction ferries seem to be cousins to cross-wind vehicle driving that may be fit with electric generators. Paravane AWES in water and air all along a river or ocean current?

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15971	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Germinated while flying in a kite

Business Opportunity

"Germinated and Grown While Flying Aloft in Kite System"

or similar claim. Sell the young plants (or animals) to gain

funds for favorite project, movement, or purpose. Have the germination

certified by a trusted third party.

For license to this and other "germinated and grown" plant or animal products

produced aloft in kite systems, please contact the AWE IP Pool members involved

with this technology; the AWE IP Pool has very fair terms. Your non-profit organization

may be eligible for a no-fee permit. Also, approved AWES teams may be eligible

for a no-royalty permit to forward such plants or animals.

Disclaimer: This matter does not include human beings or any action that would

cause suffering to animals.

Kited aerotecture will probably include plant gardens and animal activity aloft.

~ JoeF

License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA AWE IP Pool *

* attribution proposed to standardize Open-AWE cooperative references: kPower, KitePowerCoop, KLG, AWEIA, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15972	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

I'm not "slating" your rock anchoring choices... no offence.
Just don't use salvaged scrap chain pulling striaght out of your soft limestone Austin rocks.
(without a really deep grout anchor and only straight pulling)

Most climb anchoring is stronger in resisting shear loading. There's no end of advice on line ...
http://www.buildsite.com/pdf/hilti/Hilti-2011-Anchor-Fastening-Technical-Guide-B25981.pdf
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15973	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines

Joe's link was cool...

even better AWE art than the bat (IMHO) the yaybahar one at top of link page...

What a cool instrument, inspiring. http://www.nextnature.net/2014/11/acoustic-instrument-that-sounds-digital/

To be honest I don't think a yaybahar actually flies so it may not technically be AWE.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15974	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Rod,

No offence taken over technical disagreement. The best ideas prevail on merits, without regard to ordinary feelings.

All my government-commissioned architectural-scale metal design-build work in Austin attached to monolithic limestone was sealed by a PE; with huge safety margins, and a 500yr min service life intended.* I am not sure what you are advising me against, since limestone anchoring is so easy to get right (even quicksand is be anchorable)

I do use salvage metal "of a known quality". In the chain case suggested, its quite easy to add in more safety factor for any known risk, and also do basic load testing. Go ahead and solve the design challenges by whatever means you find best,

daveS

* Sample PE-sealed project of mine made almost 100% from scrap stone and metal- 6x10m gates at Austin's botanical gardens. The load forces of a cantilevered ton of swinging steel are significant-

On Monday, November 10, 2014 1:49 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15975	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazine

Sean is on a roll...

Autopilot to help kites harness energy from wind - E & T Magazine



				Autopilot to help kites harness energy from wind - E & T... An autopilot system could help energy-harvesting kites generate power from high-altitude winds.

				View on eandt.theiet.org	Preview by Yahoo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15976	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

Tease for surround-kite-wing-chicken-feet-for-kited-wings development:

An insect-like, crash-happy flying robot

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15977	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazi

Yes!

General link: http://tinyurl.com/kitesSeanCostello

-----------------------------------

However, such a clinching to a perspective of control might miss

passive control of looping wings held by stable lifter system. Let the upper-held looping wings fly in circles as branches of a long vine held at top by firm stable train. Put 50 M600s as branches off a top-lifting train of lifter; make the electricity from each branch; nearly forget robotic control; use instability for passive control.

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15978	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Sean Costello AWE interview with Technology & Engineering Magazi

Not to worry that the latest generation of AE talent will all miss the the evident paradigm-shift; the best will advance beyond their supervising professors. There is not much chance of any other result.

Sean is "novice-racehorse", not yet a champ. Judge his real mettle by his PhD thesis, which seems up-in-the-air still (pun unintended), and likely open to compelling arguments.

On Monday, November 10, 2014 5:18 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15979	From: dave santos	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

Nice validation case* for the enhanced capabilities of crashworthy aircraft, but this approach does not easily scale. Similar advantages are evident with soft-kites that can crash hundreds of times without significant damage, on a far grander scale.

----------------------

* Several other flying balls predate this student project (including my own "Flying Spheres" series, in Austin, during the '80s-'90's), with similar robustness shown (we also made rollong ball robots, and a large (non-flying) geodesic Bucky Ball, about 5m across, from carbon arrow shafts, that bounced with high Q-factor like a giant "superball").

On Monday, November 10, 2014 5:01 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15980	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/10/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

The gate "anchor" patch areas look suitably more grey (strong) on the limestone pillars

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15981	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Surround Chicken Feet for Kited Wings

So so much cooler than the kid toy version

I tried to persuade my youngest son that the air hogs roller copter was going to be junk... He wouldn't listen of course... The crashes are so much more brutal and control is next to non existent.

If you are designing a drone for initiating lift sequences or guiding a recovery. Then blade shielding seems natural ... It's something you already get with quadcopters which already have proven robust utility.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15982	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: isotropic heaxgonal lift frame with jitter

Starting to grow the upper frame.

http://youtu.be/TSeCu4Kvxrw

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15983	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: mesh tag line stretching

nit a very good model as the stretch / settle length of tag line springs is based on how close to a wind vector they are...
but it gives the idea...

http://youtu.be/ErJ4N7QI2Sw

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15984	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

DougS comments:

========================================

"Doug is wrong... Doug neglects... Doug adds very little value...the same fallacy as Doug...Doug would do himself if he was serious about the idea...not satisfy Doug in any case (his highest opinion seems reserved for GoogleX-Makani, with the most hired-PhD participation of any team)." - : ***excerpts, all in one post by DaveS. I will reply here this one time.

Hey Joe: I just want to go on record here as providing the evidence (above) of who instigates (or attempts to) the bickering between DaveS and myself. I have not replied to any message by DaveS in some time now. I refuse to waste the time to refute every rambling point he attempts. He, on the other hand, replies to almost every post of mine, attempting to tear down every statement I make, and always in an argumentative way. So, the bickering continues, but it is now 100% from one side. Since you two have flagged this arguing as:

1) a problem for the list

2) my fault

I would like you to post this one reply to DaveS, so the people on the list can clearly see who continues a desperate attempt to argue, on any topic, no matter what I might say. Above is your evidence of who the problem is.

I would also point out that, at some point, DaveS violates the very standards of friendliness etc., you guys keep insisting that you must abide by. This endless derogatory re-characterization of every statement I make was getting weary a long time ago. If I point out that something is a bad idea, he describes it as "Doug sourly dismisses", as though he is in a position to characterize me as a bad person for telling the truth and spoiling his games. And he tries to twist most of others' opinions into some politically incorrect tangle: If I say "dogs are off-topic", his attack transitions to implying I'm somehow "against blind people" by invoking the term "service animal" and saying I am "against them". That is a bizarre twist of logic. Very transparent in its inaccuracy and ridiculousness. Even more transparent in its DESPERATION. It seems that DaveS has taken his main AWE challenge to try to insure that he can in some way counter any and every point I might make on the internet. We saw a lot of people try that with Paul Gipe too. They were always geniuses (or "experts", as DaveS claims to be) in their own minds, endlessly fixating on "Paul Gipe" who insisted on sticking to the facts, as "the bad guy" since he so easily flagged their typical newbie fantasies before the inventors could grasp the message from Mother nature. "If you can't conquer nature, maybe you can conquer Paul Gipe", on the internet, right? Not. That is merely one more example of "shoot the messenger". The messenger does not define reality, he just brings you the message. Attacking the messenger does not change the message when that message is simply the truth. After a while you DO notice a pattern with these things. The pattern I've noticed is almost every single press-release breakthrough in wind energy evaporates quickly, usually already having been disproven by the time you start reading about it. And that, like global warming, the press-releases and their repetition continue long after data to the contrary is in. Well, ya know, we're talking about "scientists" here! And "journalists"! These people are the arbiters of truth. right? This is serious stuff, right? Right? Until it isn't...

~ DougS

===============================================================

Doug, "fault" was not declared by me for the tensions. My take is that argument itself is great; some of the text in pose goes against Yahoo policy and forum policy. I would hope that great arguments will occur on issues, but without any personal attacks, or a few other tactics that injure community; basic good argument can support RAD. Personal attacks can seep into prose by use of adjectives that characterize persons in negative ways that cannot be proven, and even if provable has no good effect for RAD. I hope all of us will put forward superb arguments sans critique of personality parameters. Hope you stay in the game.

Lift,

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15985	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Its just zinc reflections of shadow, since the steel had been freshly hot-galvanized (for a fifty-year finish) and shone like silver.

The key point is that limestone is not necessarily an inferior anchoring medium; in fact some granite is brittle and fails capriciously. Its always a matter of the specific geological inspection/testing and engineering design. The large limestone regions of the Earth are not out-of-bounds for civil-engineered AWES anchors, as was implied. There is no lithic medium, excepting hot lava, that does not have standard engineering anchoring methods to apply for a rated load capacity.

On Monday, November 10, 2014 11:05 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15986	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

DougS comments:

==================

How to anchor in rock is a known art, and you can choose from everything from temporary or permanent pitons etc, for rock climbers, to the commercially-available anchor systems like the Hilti system you mention. Lots of systems have the engineering already done. Just pick an off-the-shelf anchoring system with numbers matching your application. There are few topics in wind energy as common and settled as anchors for guy wires (tethers). This is one more illustration of what is really holding back AWE: Looking at every simple problem as "a new baby", as in "OMG how will we ever anchor in some rocks?" treating it as some great unknown.

What's next, trying to figure out how to get out of bed in the morning, as a new great AWE unknown? Wait, I can see it now, Joe introduces a new "sub-topic" for AWE: "using "kites" to pull you out of bed in the morning"... Yeah Joe, don't stop now!

~~ Doug S.

========================================================

JoeF comments on the above:

Thanks, Doug,

I will keep going ...
https://www.us.hilti.com/anchor-systems/c-CLS_ANCHOR_SYSTEMS Hilti
Thanks for the sub-topic idea; I won't take up forum time on that bed-pull item unless some strong progress is made in that niche space; but I can see some kite-farm technician having a wind-sensor kite system that does just what you suggest; when the wind reaches a prescribed threshold, then a flight is initiated that pulls the technician out of bed gently as an alarm clock type of servant; then he or she gets to work on tending other things in the coming-to-life kite farm. And, of course, some sub-topic work often generates other potentially useful ideas that may be of value to AWE or others. Pulling-out-of-storage arrangements seems to be a meta-expression of your contribution here; timed pull, sensor-triggered pull, event-defined pull, etc. The kite just might be the servant for some of the pull-out-of-bed needs. Such seed of concept just might grow to solve some important needs. Keep it up, Doug; thank.
Anchoring has been part of the forum since its start. Anchoring is part of a kite system. Safety in anchoring is ever close as topic. Each kite system has an anchor set; that anchor set might even be a wing set. When defining any kite system, the definition would not be complete without the defining of its anchor set. When dealing with even small toy AWES, the anchor set is very important for safety; a breakaway kite obtains usually a changed and uncontrolled anchor set that has the potential to wreak havoc on property and persons and animals and plants, even large scale fatalities; this even potentially from a small toy AWES. Each anchor solution for any AWES deserves high respect. When an AWE worker wrestles with the anchor set of a given system, there can be challenges for that worker that would be interesting for others to consider. Extant anchor systems are resource; fitting them to specific AWES can be an opportunity for verifying good fit for purpose. May we well design, handle, operate, inspect, and fix our AWES anchor sets; may we share incidents that teach. Careless application of an anchor set can bring injury or death. Successful AWES will have effective anchor sets.
Some tag lines and main tethers in AWES will have dynamics not met in some other technologies; rubber-stamping use of some extant anchor system may not fit an AWES scene.

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15987	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Extending the AWE presence into Hilti:

Hilti Chat

CHAT STARTED AT 9:14 AM, 11 Nov 2014.

JOE FAUST

Kite energy systems obtaining high tension will pull on their anchors with such tension. The tension varies from slack to super, sometimes with rapid shock dynamics. Has Hilti started a research folder for energy kite systems anchor sets? Thank you. If not, please note to your R&D department about the growing need for effective anchors for AWES (airborne wind energy systems). 9:14 AM

You are now chatting with Joshua Hoelker

JOE FAUST

Hi Joshua. 9:18 AM

JOSHUA HOELKER

Hi Joe, I would actually call customer service and speak to the energy/solar group or at least engineering @ 800-879-8000, live person, no phone tree. They would have a lot more information about those types of systems. I am also in customer service, but we have specialty groups for energy applications. 9:18 AM

JOE FAUST

Thanks, will do. Bye. Have good day. 9:19 AM

JOSHUA HOELKER

You too joe, thank you very much for the heads up on this :) 9:19 AM

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15988	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Altaeros and Alaskan journalism deserve more slack on the AWES Forum than Doug allows. The way to show this is to review Doug's role in AWE in recent years.

Doug ignores that he is the only one in the world who has long consistently resorted to crude verbal insults (many not repeatable) aimed at large numbers of AWES developers. Ironically, Doug is the one party who best fits his target profile of never delivering solutions, but making exaggerated technical claims in AWE (eg. "all roads lead to" his "rotating tower" solution, even seen sprouting from a Darrieus VAWT, in a patent drawing). This is his standing in AWE.

Gipe's role in AWE is to not even have known the field existed until we pointed it out to him not long ago. Then he was somehow unable to understand how Makani could report high power from small turbines (by crosswind sweeping). Gipe is just not an AWE person; not even an engineer by his own admission. At least he is civil in AWE discussion, and awaits validated success with an open mind. Complaints about Doug's public crudeness do not apply to Gipe.

In AWE, our conventional wind pros are much better informed, with superior experience. ChrisC was doing megawatt-scale HAWT experiments decades ago (NASA-Boeing) and progressed to heroic M600 scale UAS research. CoyH collects and maintains wind turbines of every size and type at the American Wind Power Museum. Now we have e-kite working directly in AWE, after extended careers in large scale EU turbines. These "real wind experts" do not support Doug's opinions.

At least Doug will never be smeared by the lowest standard of profane insults he has uniquely represents in AWE, nor be censored in his technical opinions. He will only be challenged on factual grounds and reminded of his past claims just as often as considered relevant to his ongoing attacks on other players. When he has positive engineering ideas to share, he will be applauded. Since I invited Doug into the AWES Forum, I undertake the large job to correct his misrepresentations for the record, and defend those he unfairly attacks.

In the current case, of Altaeros having to juggle multiple government agencies and strict regulations (FAA, State of Alaska, City of Fairbanks, etc), novel engineering challenges, and brutal seasonal conditions five thousand miles from their MIT base; all easily explaining a slightly delayed AE testing calendar. By comparison, Doug is not known to be working as hard in sunny SoCal, after ten years of AWE promotion far more shrill than anyone else; and yet he is attacks everything in sight, but never his own lack of results.

If Doug wants more respect, he needs to get in the active game of flying prototypes to 2000ft. He must take seriously our collective challenge of creating a new aviation class subject to every FAA requirement. He must honestly admit his own flaws before blaming everyone else who is working far harder, with far better results.

Peace and good luck to Doug in his future AWE participation.

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 8:34 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15989	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Doug is incorrect that AWE anchoring is a settled topic, easily dismissed. Our max projected loads are larger and far more dynamic than any previous anchor-engineering application. We don't even have the required numbers (from formal AWES testing data) to use look-up tables. Its up to us to diligently calculate safety-factors before we can use the tables (for economic reasons also).

Anchoring is a civil engineering specialty with rapid ongoing progress, which the Forum monitors. Doug ignores the need to keep current, for best economic performance. Soil-kites, gabions and scaled-up helical anchors are some of the evolving industrial solutions we are actively studying. We also seek cool new DIY solutions for our small-scale experiments.

Doug consistently neglects the unique safety dimensions of AWES engineering. A radio-mast anchor may fail, and the mast only falls on site, but an AWES anchor that fails can drag for many miles, with catastrophic results. AWES anchoring has novel aspects, like coupled kite-killers. AWES anchoring is very serious engineering issue demanding only the highest professional standard of validation. There are no safety shortcuts for AWES Pros.

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 9:23 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15990	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

DougS wrote:

"How to anchor in rock is a known art, and you can choose from everything from temporary or permanent pitons etc, for rock climbers, to the commercially-available anchor systems like the Hilti system you mention. Lots of systems have the engineering already done. Just pick an off-the-shelf anchoring system with numbers matching your application. There are few topics in wind energy as common and settled as anchors for guy wires (tethers). This is one more illustration of what is really holding back AWE: Looking at every simple problem as "a new baby", as in "OMG how will we ever anchor in some rocks?" treating it as some great unknown.

This post contains at least 50% (underlined) technical concerns. And 50% of observations to go towards the main part for R&D. It is not so bad.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15991	From: Christian Harrell	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Looping Parafoil session passing 1 week and 100 flight hour mark

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15992	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?)

Last post by DougS' decision on this topic:

[[ Let's open new topic when news shows on Altaeros. Moderator]]

=====================================================================================]]

"Altaeros and...journalism deserve more... than Doug allows. The way to show this is to review Doug's role....Doug ignores...has...resorted to crude verbal insults...Ironically, Doug is the one party who best fits his target profile...This is his standing in AWE...Complaints about Doug's public crudeness..."real wind experts" do not support Doug's opinions...Doug will never be smeared by the lowest standard of profane insults he has uniquely represents in AWE,...Doug... I undertake the large job to correct his misrepresentation...and defend those he unfairly attacks...Doug is not known to be working...after ten years of AWE promotion far more shrill ...he is attacks everything in sight...If Doug wants...he needs...He must take seriously...He must honestly admit his own flaws"
***

1) I rest my case: DaveS is unable to stop himself arguing with every point I make, in every post, endlessly trying to demonize me.

2) He contributes no new information: The gist of my point is we have no actual information on Altaeros, even such basic facts as whether they have a unit running in Alaska at all, or when they will. He has not answered any of that, just demonized me while pointing toward weak excuses for all parties having no information whatsoever while yet pretending to be telling the whole story.

3) In the amount of time JoeF and DaveS have spent castigating me on this list, for pointing out that Altaeros has apparently NOT deployed in Alaska (though the "experts" say they have), and wondering if or when they might actually DO so, and for pointing out that we simply cannot believe most press-releases related to new wind energy "breakthroughs", they could have found out the answer to what Altaeros is really doing. It seems that actual information is the last thing they are interested in. It seems they are more interested in pretending to control a fantasy conversation, or more accurately an ongoing brag-fest/insult-fest/ posturing-fest, mostly not even related to about AWE, than in developing AWE or even in accurately reporting on it.

So, if anyone is still wondering who insists on endless bickering on this list, I think I have shown it is DaveS. If he is not bickering with me, it will be someone else. One can witness him consistently "cracking around the edges" attempting to keep his urge to argue with everyone under control, attempting to "correct" most posts, while carefully maintaining a seeming cordiality, but bubbling just beneath the surface, one can discern the urge to "go postal" at any moment, degenerating into a no-holds-barred insult-fest, masquerading as some essential correction of someone's technical acumen. If not me, it will be someone else. It seems that he can't stop himself.

I'm going to go back to ignoring all his posts - I will not argue back, he can have the whole argument, whatever he decides it is, on any given day.

OK I am done with this (lack of a) topic - have a day! :)))

~ DougS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15993	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

DougS comments

================================

"Doug is incorrect...Doug ignores...Doug consistently neglects..." See? Quotes from DaveS' latest post. Here we go again. I tell Roddy he can find his anchoring answer off-the-shelf, and somehow DaveS takes the mere fact that I have posted as "open season on Doug". DaveS takes the time once again to "prove" I said something "wrong"... I am flattered with his fixation - deep down he knows that I understand what I'm talking about, and his unstoppable urge to "argue" with me is really just his way of saying he knows I'm actually right, but meanwhile, I just want to show, for the 3rd time this morning, that it is DAVES who is the arguer, not me. I will not take the time to argue with any point he seemingly makes. Way too many compounded errors in every sentence - it could take all day. (Apparently the fact that kites exist means there are suddenly no anchoring solutions available.) I'm just quoting him once again trying to tear me apart in every way he can think of while trying to pretend I am the one arguing. I am not.
:) ~ DougS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15994	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

I'll bet a days drawing that nobody read any of that.
Which is possibly to the detriment of AWE (possibly because I'll never check)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15995	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Thanks for pointing out that the answers are on the sheet Doug. Like I mentioned iin my post. The resource is all there.
And Dave S I mentioned triangulation with bolt systems... So also describes bolting a plate on the ground against the upper hemisphere of forces. Suitably wide deep angled bolts... Again the data is all there.

I really am sold on the kite out of bed idea.

However, the horse shite about Its just zinc reflections of shadow,
Don't try me on photo analysis Dave S.

Mix some lime over your finish work next time.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15996	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: A CONTROL ARRANGEMENT FOR A WIND POWERED VEHICLE

WO/2014/091210 - A CONTROL ARRANGEMENT FOR A WIND POWERED VEHICLE

The application as filed in 120 pages in PDF format: PDF (120p.)

MARTIN, Bruce Nicholas; (GB)

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservice_fpimage/WOGB2013053232@@@true@@@en


			http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservice_fpimage/WO...
			View on patentscope.wipo.int	Preview by Yahoo

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservice_image_drawings/WO@@@id00000025323641@@@10967469@@@200@@@0@@@000090.tif


			http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservice_image_draw...
			View on patentscope.wipo.int	Preview by Yahoo

========================================================

Comment:

The anchor set for the flown tug wings consist of beams, boat, and water body; part of the anchor set is an air wing (hull above water) and part of the anchor is a water wing (items below the water surface).

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15997	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Three from SUZHOU VOCATIONAL UNIVERSITY state instruction

Kite

Three inventors apply at Application Date: 29.10.2013

DONG ZHI
董志
GUO CAIFEN
郭彩芬
WAN CHANGDONG
万长东
LI HONGWEI
李洪伟

Title:

(EN) Kite
(ZH) 一种风筝

===================Comment start:

Boosting to altitude, if needed, and then flygen ...

Machine translation (errors will exist) of a sentence of the instruction:

"Kite present invention comes with the power plant, you can still launch a case in the absence of wind, but after ascend to high altitude can send fans will wind into electricity to supplement the power storage batteries."

~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15998	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Gunther Claas, Christoph Gunther. Pumping AWES groundgen.

WO2013113655

Title (DE) ZUGDRACHEN

(EN) TOWING KITE

(FR) CERF-VOLANT DE TRACTION

Inventors:

GÜNTHER, Claas; (DE).

GÜNTHER, Christoph; (DE)

============================================================a

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 15999	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Pierre,

If "Rock Kiting" is a bad topic, then making it about Doug is worse. Its true that his last post "is not so bad" compared to his many abusive postings on record*, but its unhelpful that he wrongly pronounces (and you seemingly endorse) AWE anchoring as a "settled" engineering topic.

In fact, professional civil engineers will be required to validate early AWES anchoring designs with great care, accounting for many novel and/or persistent issues (safety-factors, kite-surge loads, vertical load vectors, kite-killers, cost-reduction, etc.).

The complaint raised about Joe's choice of topic is unhelpful. We count on Joe to prompt serious AWES thinking from unusual angles. That's why this topic has ranged from Pocock's Philosopher Stone, to upholding the highest engineering standards for geological anchors, as ultimately determined by the PE's who will seal our designs.

daveS

* The AWES Forum is only moderated to ensure family-friendly public language by JoeF (a tedious burden, very appreciated). Censorship of technical views is a real problem in AWE stealth-venture and blogger circles. In Open-AWE, no one is silenced.

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 10:59 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16000	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: IPPOLITO, Massimo on WIND ENERGY CONVERSION SYSTEM WITH KITES TOWING

(EN) WIND ENERGY CONVERSION SYSTEM WITH KITES TOWING MODULES ON A RAIL

(FR) SYSTÈME DE CONVERSION D'ÉNERGIE ÉOLIENNE AYANT DES CERFS-VOLANTS REMORQUANT DES MODULES SUR UN RAIL

International Filing Date: 07.12.2012

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/WO2014087436

Drag module on rail by use of tethered wings (wings of kite systems); groundgen.

========================================

This may be review for some readers.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16001	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Alaska Launches Flying Wind Turbines (they did?

Most of it was review anyway. Its a logical and moral fallacy to judge text without reading "any" of it.

Let rambling video monologues be judged by the same standard as my explanation of the due pace of Altaeros testing, in both cases out of fairness.

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 12:36 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16002	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: William Hampton instructs energy extraction using a kite system; gro

Application Date:15.08.2012

EP96255825

Title:

(FR) Extraction d'énergie à l'aide d'un cerf-volant

(EN) Energy extraction using a kite

(DE) Energieauszug unter Verwendung eines Drachens

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16003	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Sorry Rod,

I just don't understand what your initial objection was to anchoring in limestone (especially if AWES anchoring is merely a "look-up" issue). Not do I understand the comment about "grey" metal (when its brightly reflective), or the unworkability of using salvage metal "of known quality", etc.

I am sure no PE is going to just seal a large-scale AWES anchor that you or Doug pick out of a table. Surely the engineer will ask for the complex loadings, geological data, risk assessments to drive safety-factor calculations, etc.

I wish you and Doug were right about this. Let time tell who is right then, about how, and by who, safety-critical civil-engineered anchors must get approved (even by the anchor solution provider's own in-house PEs). The cautious path is to diligently continue to study anchoring issues all the way to megascale (where very little is COTS),

daveS

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 1:48 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16004	From: benhaiemp	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Relational

DaveS,

I think in fact DougS holds you in high respect as well as vice versa. The long even conflicting DS/DS correspondence is a prove of it. You are right by focusing on technical merits rather than some emotional consideration. I try also to follow this way. Observe now the chance for AWE forum: JoeF for encyclopaedic knowledge, and equal tone; RodR for renderings and Daisy, yourself for some decisive analysis, DougS for intuition towards the reality of AWE production on wind energy basis. I can resume in another way: for JoeF: what are all possibilities? For RodR: what is interesting?For yourself: what is the best possibility? For DougS:what is not to be made?... So some positive results can happen.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16005	From: Joe Faust	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: William Hampton instructs energy extraction using a kite system;

Correcting the title to add RAT besides groundgen. The instruction does rehearse having RAT to control KSU aloft to avoid having to get KSU power from ground.

The one drawing put in first post flashes for me the rocking arch method

of driving electrical groundgen.

Clip quote:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16006	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Relational

Pierre,

It hardly seems Doug can deliver real value to RAD, which he only attacks. He has his own AWE agenda. While I respect Doug as a person, just as you suggest, I will still rebut what I consider his gross technical misrepresentations and unfair characterizations of so many great folks (as "professor crackpot" cases).

Expect me to continue factual corrections as best I can, without the social side being any more personal than an automatic defense of professional friends from unfair attack on a public Forum I have some responsibility for. You neglect to mention the problem of his unprofessional language and exaggerated claiming, which simply is not respectable, and his relative lack of real engineering solutions. Solve that for Doug to be better respected.

What we are left with is the Great AWE Debate. On one side we have AWE-pessimists who think AE is too stupid to succeed, mixed with those who think they have easy solutions, but feel ignored; on the other side is an AE community hard at work, with a consistent optimism the problems will be solved by established engineering-science traditions, standards, and regulatory rules under collegial social relations.

daveS

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:38 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16007	From: dave santos	Date: 11/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paper study: Optimal Cross-Wind Towing and Power Generation with

This is a best-of-breed AWE paper, for its time (2007). The basics are covered, and AWE is shown promising by the numbers. A particularly potent finding from simulation was the power of crosswind travel by a kite land-vehicle. In this regard, DaveL's influential 2004 AWE expert panel elicitation was overlooked (as still happens in Ivory Tower AWE), where Joe Hadzicki's concept for a cableway-constrained kite-towed vehicle was presented (a prime passive control method; the 07 paper only mentions active control). Also overlooked was the existing dense array concepts (laddermills and carousels), which have since considerably advanced in variety and mindshare as capacity-density multipliers.

JoeF is right that there are many small gems of information to savor, and some old trails to follow. My question to JoeF is whether Carpenter has current priority for the reeling concept that so many EU teams embraced, as this paper seems to suggest.

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 7:05 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 16008	From: Rod Read	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Rock Kiting

Dave S,

You don't have any argument here. Don't let's make one up.

At best we are arguing over your tiny grammatical error on light reflectance.

At worst we are unthinkingly going to put too small an expanding bolt into a soft crumbly rock.

I'm not stooping toward the level of teasing that my rocks are better than yours na na na na na na.

Enough limestone above an anchor will hold just as well as a "tonne bag of feathers"....

Take your higher ground stance if you want.

Don't forget to embed your anchors low enough in the evil, dirty, low life, pond scum, parts where the likes of Doug Selsam and I live.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk