Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES15350to15399 Page 202 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15350 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Minesto wins WWL Orcelle Award 2014

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15351 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15352 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Up-and-Down Fence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15353 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15354 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Windbow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15355 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15356 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15357 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15358 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Arthur D. Struble, circa 1965

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15359 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Datamining PopSci

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15360 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Minesto wins WWL Orcelle Award 2014

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15361 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15362 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15363 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Toy Kite as Quantum Topological Computer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15364 From: Rod Read Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15365 From: Rod Read Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15366 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15367 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15368 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Up-and-Down Fence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15369 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Up-and-Down Fence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15370 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: 2012 Oliver Woodford AWE Seminar

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15371 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Google Promoting AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15372 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Vis Ventis Carousel Animation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15373 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15374 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15375 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: 2012 Oliver Woodford AWE Seminar

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15376 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Windbow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15377 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15378 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15379 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Spider Kite Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15380 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15381 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15383 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: e-kite's strategic advantages

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15384 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Momentum Transfer by Tethers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15385 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15387 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15388 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15389 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15390 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15391 From: Rod Read Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15392 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Tethered-Wing Rotator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15393 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Brumfield

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15394 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15395 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15396 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15397 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15398 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15399 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15350 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Minesto wins WWL Orcelle Award 2014
This video says:
"The technology will be ready for multiMegaWatt installations by 2015"
Now I don't identify any specific problems with this technology.
BUT
We've all seen how out of 1000 such promises, none has ever come true.
So, let's stay tuned and see if Multi-MegaWatt installations of this underwater kite energy system emerge next year.

A spinoff from Saab?  Saab just went bankrupt...
Saab's US Arm Calls For $4.2M From Swedish Bankruptcy - Law360

 


Hey Joe, maybe you could document when such promises are made, then actually FOLLOW UP on the promises and DOCUMENT when high-falutin' companies, universities, agencies, etc., make such promises, what happens NEXT after the press-release.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15351 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh
Let me guess: Niagara Falls, right?  I grew up near there and heard the story a few times.  Is telling this story "one more time" really the state of AWE today?  After all these years?  Haven't we covered this story a few times already?  Nice theme for an article in "People" magazine, but how does this take us to AWE?  Are we pretending that without the kite, there would be no bridge today?  Or is it an illustration of how a kid can do what grownups are too mentally-fossilized to see?  Or did the grownups think of it and then find the kid to hold the string for a press-release?  If AWE turns out to not use kites at all, will this story turn out to be 100% irrelevant?  At least the story tells something that really DID happen, rather than a bunch of empty promises.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15352 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Up-and-Down Fence

CC 4.x BY NC SA by Joe Faust into kPower AWES IP Pool :

UP-AND-DOWN FENCE

Close to "Tipping Boom" but different in order to saturate use of airspace:

Have ground levers driven exactly up and down; driving occurs in both the up and the down phase; power production is nil at the reverse point up and at the reverse point down. Fly tethered airfoil train (of one or more wings on a set of lines) in a vertical path; control the same wing set in the vertical path down while driving the same lever. The tensed tethers fit to a ground lever; the lever drives a ground generator. Fly the wing sets traverse to the wind in the vertical path. Farm such unit by side-by-side units; integrate the side-by-side units to obtain aggregate stability. Weathercock the ground arrangements. Have no winch expense, if so wanted.  Fly down only to wind that will support the reversal to fly up; going too low would not permit the cycles.  Recall vertical 8 flight paths, but alter into the present Up-And-Down Fence by direct AoA change for immediate reversal along the same linear vertical path. 



     Contrast the above method with OrthoKiteBunch that offers left-to-right motion and comparatively low use of the available airspace.   Compare with WPI lever.  Compare with the delays in some laddermill arrangements. Compare with Leonid Goldstein's long delay in the preparation for the production phase of the scheme shown in 


Yahoo! Groups
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15353 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Will They Fly? Wind-Power Alternatives Buffeted by Technical Squalls - NBC News

Hmmmm, the latest version of amnesiac "press-release science" now suddenly says they will be up and running by late NEXT year.  No explanation of what happened to "this year"...  See how this stuff works?  Also Ben Glass is quoted as saying they try to invent as little as possible, and just use existing, known technology, which brings us back to "why not just use a regular blimp?"

TOO BAD, with ALL THESE "REPORTERS", "JOURNALISTS", ETC., we can't seem to find ANY actual NEWS on this topic, NOBODY actually following the real story, just MORE LYING PRESS-RELEASES, with NO MENTION of what we can now flag as 100% inaccuracy of THE PREVIOUS LIES.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15354 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Windbow
"Windbow" is best to refer to GeorgeP's kite arch variants, just as SkyBow has its attributions. Any kite with a wingtip-bridled span-loaded wing embodies the kite arch principle, including power-kites, and common sleds.

What sets an iconic kite arch apart in practical usage is the "staked-out" state of being anchored crosswind by its two sides, compared to kites that rotate on a single tether. We are mindful of the arch principle when explaining span-loaded split-bridle kites, but do not operationally class them with highly developed arches like the Windbow Skybow, Mothra, Ohashi, etc..

An interesting morph of arch/single-line-kite methods, to easily rotate a suitably bridled arch, is to slack its wingtip lines as tag-lines, then rotate the arch in SLK mode around its bridle-center-point anchor, and reset the wingtips in the new orientation. (CC 4.x)




On Sunday, October 12, 2014 7:48 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15355 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh
Morning, Doug, 
1. AWE won't just "turn out" to be one thing or one branch or just one winner. AWE has sectors and scales; and there is historic patterns that indicate that interest and activity will grow in many AWE sectors. Niche applications solved are likely to obtain some following in the future; the forum and other sites now may record shared solutions open for use in niche applications. 

2. The utility-scale electricity production contest will have some top performers; if we could see all that is extant right this moment, there would be seen some top performers; the reports are yet sparse. 

3. AWE wraps around such as IFO, RATs on any aircraft, and energy kite systems. Purposeful use of kite systems is a sector of AWE. Solutions in energy kite systems to effect the fulfillment of any purpose are invited to be recorded for the view and application choice by anyone.  Homan Walsh now has a topic thread in this forum; the discussions on topic might inspire something in some of us or in some visitors of any age and AWE maturity. The notion of setting goals for youth is part of the story.  The value of contest is involved. The focus on "purposeful kiting" is involved. The urge to join nations with kiting systems is present in the story. 

4. Setting lines to remote points for use in doing practical works is one of the technology points embedded in the Homan Walsh story.   All are invited to describe other uses of lines set to far points; lead lining for what other projects? Let your imagination go on this and report your findings. Where a line was not, there could be a line; what to do with that line or lines?   Drag instruments? Clear land-mines?  Plow soil? Capture and tow a vehicle that was out of reach? Rescue people or animals? Set back fires while fighting fires? Etc. Send in your Homan Walsh inspired ideas and advance the AWE opportunities. We are probably at an infant stage on setting lines to where lines were not set.

Best, 
   Stay AWEsome, 
~ JoeF


---In airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com, <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15356 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh
Joe Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  Sorry, but I'm not buying it.  1000 "highly credentialed people" including yourself, have declared all the stops being pulled out, and a future of wind energy taking to the skies.  Yet those same highly-credentialed prognosticators have essentially NOTHING to show us.  The higher the credentials, the less is expected of any version of "The Good Professor", whether he be from MIT, NASA, The NWTC, or Lockheed. 

The fact that I can sit here and just read a press-release and publicly tell you, with no other information, that it's just more "all lies, all the time", and end up always being right, shows you this is all by far "been-there, done-that" territory for me.  The reason I sound so confidently jaded is, you show me an article citing someone with the highest credentials known to man, promising what he WILL do to revolutionize wind energy, and I'll show you a 100% lie, after seeing the same thing happen 1000 times. 

(Like Paul Gipe points out, the "farmer with a welder" is more likely to make a breakthrough.  Funny but I remember the former Chief Engineer for GE Wind using that exact term about 10 years ago in a private conversation with me.  His point was that his engineers have superseded that legendary "farmer with a welder" but the point should not be overlooked that he acknowledged that farmer is the traditional source of progress in wind energy.  Farmers have to figure out how to get things to work, while academics just need to find more funding by whatever lying means necessary.

After a while, an astute reader will notice such patterns.  Other people, not so astute, not really paying attention, are so used to a steady diet of "all lies, all the time" that they never notice that none of the lies ever come true, and so they keep believing every "new" press-release, even though it is nearly a verbatim duplicate of all the past press-releases, about whatever project, from whatever "news" source. 

Notice "news" in quotes, since they AVOID actual news, in favor of more lying press-releases, purportedly telling us all about the future.  Somehow, nobody ever seems to notice that this stated "future" never materializes. 

I don't think telling the story of a kid flying a kite 100 years ago to get a string across a river has any relevance whatsoever, and, as I pointed out, we've covered this story multiple times already.

My translation of "Newsflash: kid flies kite across river 100 years ago" is just another way of saying: "Professor Crackpot is STILL making NO progress WHATSOEVER in the promised field of AWE, so there is NOTHING to report except a kid flew a kite across a river 100 years ago to get a string across - nice, but really, whoopee-doo!  Quite a lack of progress.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15357 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Homan Walsh
The AWE engineering lesson is to compare a little kid with a homemade kite doing the same trick as modern helicopter cable laying*, which costs ~500USD an hour and up. Many markets cannot afford helicopter rates or risks for overhead cable laying and many other kite-doable services. The legendary kid with a kite suggests user friendly sustainable low-cost areal capabilities are up to us to perfect, as well as AWES. This is what Einstein meant in demanding "more fairytales".

Its false logic to suggest this kite story should not be repeated because one soured figure who grew up listening to it did not grasp the wonderful implications. This story will outlive all objectors.


* a recent similarity case presented on the Forum



On Monday, October 13, 2014 9:05 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15358 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Arthur D. Struble, circa 1965
The LEI kite LE was anticipated here...


On Sunday, October 12, 2014 8:11 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15359 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Datamining PopSci
The Altaeros coverage was less informative than the roster of competition. It seems PS contacted the companies below or copied info online. Here we see claimed altitude and timeframes; a notable exception is Makani now dropping all timeframes, after having missed them for years. NTS is claiming 24MW farm unit in 2.5yrs, which would be a heroic feat just within plausibility.

PopSci got it wrong that there are only a handful of AWE contenders, overlooking at least as many major players as they recognize here-

Makani
Device: Airfoil
How It Works: As the Airborne Wind Turbine makes giant vertical loops, air spins four rotors, which drive generators. A tether sends the power to a ground station.
Altitude: 400 to 1,100 feet
Commercial Scale: 600 KW
Timeframe: Unspecified

KiteGen
Device: Kite
How It Works: An arm extending from the ground station moves the kite in a figure-8 pattern. As the kite pulls on its tether, a generator on the ground produces power.
Altitude: 1,000 to 8,000 feet
Commercial Scale: 3 MW
Timeframe: 1-2 years

Ampyx Power
Device: Plane
How It Works: The PowerPlane glides on autopilot in a figure-8 pattern. As the plane climbs it pulls on its tether, which is connected to a ground-based generator.
Altitude: 1,000 to 2,000 feet
Commercial Scale: 2?3 MW
Timeframe: 2017

NTS X-Wind
Device: Kite
How It Works: Six to 24 kites pull generators around a track elevated 20 feet off the ground. During still periods, these become motors, towing the kites to keep them aloft.
Altitude: 600 to 1,800 feet
Commercial Scale: 24 MW
Timeframe: 2.5 years
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15360 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Minesto wins WWL Orcelle Award 2014
Its not RAD to obsess over losers rather than focus on openings for progress. Minesto can fail and the paravane succeed, and we'll follow the winners.

If we must castigate over-promising, let USWindLabs and Magenn be first. Minesto still has a chance to make a positive difference.


On Monday, October 13, 2014 8:02 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15361 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
A year's delay in developing an aviation platform, especially with government players deeply involved in both funding and regulation, does not imply "LIES". The professional standard of judgement is more patient and less irate.

USWindLabs has been around three-times longer than Altaeros, and made far greater claims; without any more visible result than to accuse widely, but no one is fooled. In any serious consideration of failed AWE promises, USWindLabs is the prime case.


On Monday, October 13, 2014 8:40 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15362 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
The salient points are these:
1) You read all about what they "will do" including dates,  It's all stated as facts;
2) These 3 - 6-month-old-stories are still being repeated today, in lieu of actual news, by major "news" sources...
3) This forum purports to be up on "what's up" in AWE, yet this forum has no actual information on such a high-profile project that has basically replaced Magenn as the current "Sta-Puf Marshmallow-Man" of AWE...
4) For all Joe's efforts to provide a forum for the latest news and info in the field of AWE, he actually knows NOTHING WHATSOEVER about such a major, newsmaking effort, complete with imagery compelling enough to garner endless press coverage;
5) Between ALL the news outlets, and Joe's best efforts, we still know NOTHING about the actual progress of the Altaeros effort.
6) What we had before was several definitive statements in multiple articles, that this would all be taking place starting this summer, which is already over.
7) With no information whatsoever, a person like me who pays attention to how these things normally proceed, was able to accurately (?) predict that none of what you read would turn out to be true.

So, do the math.  (Gosh, how could I have "known"?)

Here's what I'd like to see:
If Joe is the ambassador or archive-maintainer of AWE knowledge, as he has done a pretty good job of being, I'd say he could ramp it up a notch or two by being in touch with the actual teams he purports to monitor, and actually MONITOR their progress, rather than just accepting whatever 6-month-old press-release he happens to stumble across, while the actual project would seem to be either in failed status, or on hold, or something OTHER than what was STATED in the press releases.  (Sergeant Schultz?)

When the reality is something OTHER than what was STATED, that is inaccurate information, disinformation, false press-releases as substitutes for science, or, if one were really tired of it after 1000 times, one could just throw up one's hands and call it "Lies, lies, and more lies". 

And of course we have the typical "fight for ignorance" types on here squirming their way to excuse and promote this lack of knowledge, denying that false statements can accurately be flagged as mere lies, while expressing ongoing hunger for ever more lies.  (You're always gonna get the nuts...)

Anyway, I'd encourage Joe to reach out for some facts if he is truly interested in the field of AWE as it actually IS, as opposed to regurgitating the stale fairly-tales as spun by the promoters, still floating around in the ignorance-and-disinformation-sphere. 

Joe, why not STAY in touch with the teams after they announce a project and find out what the ongoing facts are?  Shouldn't WE on THIS FORUM know more about the current status of the highest-profile AWE efforts than ABC News?  Geez Joe, You've been "scooped"!  :)

Just making the point, if you're interested in AWE, you won't find out what's really going on here in this forum, unless you happen to listen to me.  And I'm just making things up, pulling facts from the air (based on experience), that turn out to be more accurate than all the best news sources and AWE "experts" combined.

You're better off just using google news.

But if you wanna come close to accuracy in AWE news, just take any AWE press-release or "news article" and say "More Professor Crackpot nonsense, none of it is true", and you will be right 99.9% of the time.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15363 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Toy Kite as Quantum Topological Computer
Years ago, the puzzle was posed on the AWES forum, of how an UHMPE hawser can transmit ~10MW in the ship-towing case, yet remain cool to the touch. This manifest mechanical SuperConductance suggested a Quantum Mechanical Phonon basis, but the validation of this line of conjecture required a steep learning curve on the part of interested engineers.

The acceptance of Chaos Physics in kites had been slow enough [Van Veen '96]. Over time, by diligent study, the formal follow-on QM basis of Kite Dynamics became more evident (via many paths, like Quantum Chaos), but in the face of crude derision by non-expert Forum trolls, the discussion has been occurring off-Forum, and the topic was not updated regularly. This note marks ongoing behind-the-scenes advances in deep kite physics theory, and further nearing to direct engineering utility (design inspiration for kite lattices has already resulted).

In complex AWES kite rigging R&D by KLG and kPower, quasi 1D and 2D Anyon (Phonon) interactions seem evident in many specific instances. This narrows down the phonon types and explains the mixing of Boson and Fermion statistics. Embodied topological logic elements (in rag and string) apparently act as wind-excited anyon processors, and toy kite stability seems like a publicly unrecognized case of simple Quantum Topological Computation (autonomous stability solution in wind-field chaos). The fun part is that the kite may be the first recognized QTC process, and the intuitive macroscopic accessibility of the kite similarity case, since thermal noise that decoheres small particles is well below the phonon frequencies (pumping at low Hz) involved.

This is only a current peek at the new kite physics being discussed off-Forum. A top Quantum Topological Computation subject-matter expert has just found the kite case to be meaningful as QTC and worth developing. His name and work is withheld to protect him from undeserved ridicule from uncomprehending trolls, but can be shared with anyone with a sincere interest. A lot more deep kite physics is pending sharing to the AWES Forum, as the core ideas continue to pass (or not pass) review by professional physicists newly pondering the kite.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15364 From: Rod Read Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: beginner question on lifter triangulation
When 3 morse sled lift kites are set, (each side bridle line on opposite edge of a swivel plate,) above the nodes of a triangular grid....

And the triangle is allowed to fly from staked out anchoring...

Which kite flies highest in a given wind?
Does each kite still want to fly to wind? or does the bridle need crossed from the swivel plate to maintain weathercocking as per earlier experiments?
What form does the grid take when extended to chinese checkers formation grids?

Can we understand or control this grid cell arrangement better by studying rats brains grid cells or computer games 3d environment mapping like doom or minecraft?

I'm going to do an experiment on this (not the rats brains bit exactly) soon when 3 large lifters arrive.
If anybody knows accurately, maybe I can verify your findings.

How does the lift available collectively from these 3 lifters vary in relation to the ground?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15365 From: Rod Read Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
So by that logic.. It's best that we stay "Not News" but more fact on the forum.
Thanks for clearing that one.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15366 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Doug,
      Many points. Thanks for discussion. 
Some clarifications:
1. Google Search is recommended as one tool for finding leads to things one might want to know.  Setting a Google alert for "Altaeros" will retrieve more public news spots than will be found in this present forum; we bypass much duplicative public postings. If some note about changed method occurs, please post a not about it. 

2. I am personally content to let Altaeros put out their news at their rate. I have zero time or funds to even call them. They have been politely invited to post or send me notes and news. No reply. No posts yet. Ben Glass and I had introductory email years ago.  This pattern is not too far from what occurs from over 1000 participants in AWE. Maybe 10 centers of hundreds post news in the forum; maybe two of those 10 post notes fairly robustly.  This forum holds more AWES matter than any other forum on topic; I have urged others to do forums on AWE; there are about six efforts beyond mine that have some significant content, but far less than some of us wish. NASA, Salient Elephant, Rod Read's fine web structure, kPower, KiteGen group, couple of blogs, couple of wikis.    We here link to any effort we might find.  

3. Any minutes I do spend for RAD publishing is spent on scratching for text that might spawn doing things that are not being done. Once a project is locked into a method, I am content to wait for notes and news from that project center. Some mechanical study is done about a method; and I aim to publish the method enough for someone to have the method as an option.  

4. As a method, the Altaeros downselect from public-domain art does not form novelty; if that team is going to spend time and funds to perfect their downselect, then eventually some results will help refine where their method and embodiment fits into the larger spectrum of AWES.   Eventually competition may occur on the same flight field against other AWES.  I'll be content to simply know the results and study the matter when it occurs. No hurry on that.  The hurry in the RAD I am facing concerns methods estimated to far surpass what Altaeros is doing. 

5. We have the disclosures of Leonid Goldstein to study and discuss; he chooses, so far, to form a kind of parallel universe to the herein forum.  Yet his methods could still form topics with potential careful unfolding. He is news far above Altaeros relative to RAD, that is, from my view. 

6. Sparkly "news" is referenced when one of us finds such articles, mainly to give an awareness of the growth of public awareness of the AWE realm. Sparkly news up to method has proven not to be RAD news for the most part, as most of such are downselects from public-domain arts that are already in the awareness of AWE experts. No new methods in Magenn, Joby, Makani, Ampyx, SWP, Altaeros; all are exploring public-domain arts (or were exploring their downselects). Rotate blimp, flygen rigid blades, reeling cycles, lift HAWP by kite (LTA or HTA). I am content to let their "news" unfold at their chosen rate; if they change methods, then I will be interested for a minute. If they refine their method, then ultimately their experience may show to inform others who may wish to follow their downselect.

7. The forum has yet to post all known published AWE methods to provide options for developers. I spend time to help get public domain arts up at least once.  Evaluation of such arts is underway by some people. The downselect of the reeling method has received the most attention by downselectors. Some other organ one day will trace the inner workings of each company.  I am content to list bridges to the companies and teams, so that others will cross the bridges with agendas of their choosing. I hope scores of publishers will scoop on those details. Our present forum leads in providing options, bridges, and applications. 

8. We have yet to unfold your Serpentine patent statements. People are probably appropriately busy on their downselect and thus might not have time or energy to unfold the many statements in the Serpentine document.  

9. I suspect that one day there will be a high-level deeply investigating news arm within AWE for AWE. I would not work for such a publisher. I would stay aside pressing for disclosure of things not yet said about methods and applications of AWES.  Any of my trade names are up for exchange for a reasonable payment. Perhaps fresh new trade names will be used by someone to serve some AWE need; their direction will be noted in this AWES forum. 

10. AWEIA and AWEC have an option to merge. Such a merger might attract funds to run robust investigation over established downselect projects, such as Altaeros.  I have made exactly one telephone call in AWE for investigation.  You have made more telephone calls than I have to investigate AWE.  I have not finished using the Internet to bare all AWE-related patents. 

11. Last week we lost the subscription of two members; they could not take the Ds-Ds wrestling.  Also, they might not have know that they could configure their membership to not receive emails, but still retain posting privilege and file privileges.     

12. Members are free to help form this forum by posting in the manner that would exhibit how they want the forum to be. 

Best, 
    ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15367 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
If I understood your word-picture, the downwind sled will have more scope and end up flying highest.


On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:45 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15368 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Up-and-Down Fence
You seem to be describing a "fence" of plunging ladder-foils.

The biomimetic version would be the bounding-plunging motion birds, whales, and dolphins, with the wings or pectoral fins and tail surface acting as the fence boards moving in phased sinusoidal rhythm. This motion can be passively driven by wind and tapped at the wing/fin-tips, in the case of an AWES. A kite arch can be made to flap vertically quite easily.

Fish wave sideways, of course. A primitive vertical flapper-
Lyrarapax


On Monday, October 13, 2014 8:28 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15369 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Up-and-Down Fence
An arch kite for the wing connected to the levers would be an embodiment; up drive the levers; down drive the levers; repeat the cycle. Farm by multiplication of units side by side and also field fill downwind. Pulsating field; pulsated airspace. Super conspicutiy. Low: NIMBY. Low: good low-delay on moving the levers. High: higher winds. Scale of the arch: small to very large.

 = Is this the species you mentioned?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15370 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: 2012 Oliver Woodford AWE Seminar
Ollie has been active in AWE study for some years now, with VisVentis and KPS connections. I do not recall we have covered this seminar, which is now a bit dated, given fast-moving R&D-

Oliver Woodford an engineer at Toshiba Research Europe Limited, presenting the latest research to an audience at Bath University remarked. - 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15371 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Google Promoting AWE

Mostly echo-chamber reportage, but Peter Fitzgerald, Google UK sales director is a new name and Waimea Hawaii gets a confirming mention-


Business Green
Google, go fly a kite
Independent Online
Engineers say the “energy kite” has the potential to generate 50 percent more energy while eliminating the need for 90 percent of the materials used ...
How Google-owned Startup Makani is Tackling a Major Challenge in Renewable Energy - Energy Digital
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15372 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Vis Ventis Carousel Animation
A carousel variant by Phil Anderson; animated-

Guest post – the kite carousel | visventis.org
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15373 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
"It's best that we stay "Not News" but more fact on the forum. Rod Read Windswept and Exasperating Limited" *** I'd settle for factual, timely news.  Factual content of any sort is preferable over "lies lies lies yeah"  Without factual content, all conversations here are even more meaningless than if they were factual but without knowledge of what to do with those facts. ***
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15374 From: dougselsam Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
OK Joe, our very long post must have taken more time than a call to Altaeros.  My point is that the AWE community had been laboring under the assumption that Altaeros had a system up and running in Alaska.  I pointed out my skepticism that such could actually be the case, and it looks like i was right.  How did I know?  Because I've done enough wind energy projects to know they often (usually?) don;t work out as planned on the first try.  Or maybe they work right away, but also reveal unforeseen problems so they must be halted and modified.  I feel very alone that I can so clearly see most of AWE as nothing but endless lies and naive people following the "Professor Crackpot" syndrome to a T, and yet no matter how many times I point it out, nobody seems to care.  They just keep exhibiting the same sorry symptoms while protesting that I could flag them so easily.
So you took the time to write: "Google Search is recommended as one tool for finding leads to things one might want to know."
Is this really worth your time to write such well-understood notions?  I was simply letting you know that if you want to do a better job as a clearinghouse for AWE news, it might be best to have the facts rather than the fairy-tales.  And those facts are best garnered from ongoing communication with the first person actual subject-matter teams or people on the teams.  No new ideas there.
I guess it would be nice if someone out there thought "Gosh, Doug seems to have nailed it once again - how come he knows more than PopSci etc. before he even reads the news?  How can he tell you ahead of the fact that someone's project isn't working?  How does he know everything without even trying?  He seems to be able to out-think "the smartest people in the world", over and over, with his hands tied behind his back.  Gosh maybe we should start listening to him.  I know - quite a dream eh?  Oh well, go back to sleep everyone.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15375 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2014
Subject: Re: 2012 Oliver Woodford AWE Seminar
External challenges
   1.  Financing for R & D
   2.  Approvals
   3.  Certification
   4.  Insurance
   5.  Siting
   6.  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15376 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Windbow
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15377 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
Yes, that's how I assume it will work out... as the downwind lifter will be using upwind lifter mesh connections as it's tether...
It's own corner tether being downwind of it as it flies. (direct corner tether of the triangle set is now downwind to the highest kite)

I'd like to reverse this...

Now in the case of a sheet or triangulated / hexagonal mesh form covered with lift elements...
It would seem more beneficial as a lift provider / wind dam / mount wall .... to have the upwind elements being set at a higher altitude.
Can the mesh fly solidly as a whole net having a positive AOA if we let out more tethering on the most upwind anchors?
Or does a net require extra tethering from further upwind anchors to achieve this?

My guess is that the total net form can fly clamshell like, opening from the ground hinge downwind, highest kite closest and facing into wind.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15378 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
Yes, upwind anchors to stand up downwind formations are great, since an upwind margin can do the job for an extended downwind zone. The wider the kitefarm, the better it works.

Otherwise, one can put pulleys at every anchor and crosslink all the dome lines, such that the windward lines lengthen and leeward shorten passively.


On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:48 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15379 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Spider Kite Systems

Intent of this topic thread:

Display and discuss the kite systems generated by spiders and spider webs. 

One object of the topic is to provide inspiration for putting kite systems to work

to fulfill specific purposes including the production of electricity to be fed to grids

to serve people in their needs. 


Spiders themselves sometimes involve in converting the wind's energy to effect specific purpose by 

using their self-made lines to tether the spider's body as airfoil. At other instances the spiders pump

energy into their tether-held bodies with a result of motions and wind formation to effect certain 

results. At other instances the tethering of debris forms tethered airfoils that result in some goods for spiders. Then also one will find a great variety of arrangements of spider lines combined with specific insect wings that form sometimes part of a nutrition system. But as side art, the unfolding of spiders and their lines and attached airfoils provide a seemingly endless visual for the adventurous AWES developer.  Anchoring, terrain enhancement, combinations, and more might delight the imagination of some driving to have AWES flourish. 


Spider-line varieties may be part of the adventure. Rigging schemes. Shelf-life. Maintenance. Repairing. Drag. Lift. Rotation. Oscillation. Line placement. Resiliency. Microclimatic changes from spider-web constructions. And much more.  Trace the effects of this spider realm over AWES realms; people, system designs, redundancy, safety, inspiration, ...


Start: 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-daFgnCUiHCc/Ueyfhj_9eAI/AAAAAAAAR_Q/_F2pQNs_zDk/s1600/dragonfly.jpg


~ JoeF

Topic dedicated to honor of AWES pioneer Wubbo J. Ockels

Some prelims: 

  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15380 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
Yep, that's how I'd think it will work.
Has anyone tried it yet though?

With the passive cross linking anchor set ... Has this been tried yet?
We will have to make provision for the tensed lines run near ground level under a Chinese checkers star formation...ducting or raising them if necessary to remove their snagging potential.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15381 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation




Note the bridle lines run thru rings to crosslink on the surface. This allows the wing to passively tilt for flight in any wind direction-



http://energykitesystems.net/KiteLab/isotropic.jpg




On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:24 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems
For members signed in, the Links section of the group has a folder
welcoming on-topic links: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15383 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: e-kite's strategic advantages

The big news in AWE in the past few days is the emergence of e-kite as the latest serious player. They bring real wind industry experience into professional cooperation with academic AWE research. e-kite can be expected to partner closely with AWE teams from the aerospace side (like TUDelft), to cover aviation challenges.

e-kite, in its own words-

"...e-kite’s team was able to develop its 50kW model in such a short time period due to its deep experience in wind industry and thanks to the development support from its professional supplier base. The company also intensively cooperates with universities and other knowledge institutions..."

Meet the team-

http://www.e-kite.com/e-team/


Meet the production prototype; note "festival" market target (AWEfest/Wubbo lives), and low altitude aviation exemption-

e-kite 50kW

e-kite’s ambition is to be the first company worldwide to commercially launch an economically viable kite power system. The first model that will be brought to market is a 50kW model with a number of characteristics that are critical for successful deployment:
Fully-automated kite launch & retrieve system to enable autonomous operation;
  • Minimal safety risks because of the use of a soft-structure kite in combination with an extensive range of safety features;
  • Maximum efficiency due to the applied direct drive generator and efficient reel-in process;
  • Low operating & investment costs due to the simple and robust design with relatively few moving parts;
  • Design life of at least 20 years;
  • Kite altitude not exceeding 100m in order to comply with aviation regulations;
  • Mobile ground station, allowing the kite power system to be used for temporary applications such as festivals.
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15384 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Momentum Transfer by Tethers
Interesting ongoing elaboration of engineered tether dynamics, with close relevance to specific AWES methods-

Momentum exchange tether - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15385 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems
A Kite Dome as disclosed on the AWES Forum is a Spider Kite. Multiple bridle legs radiate from the center zone to the surface, suggesting a spider. By contrast, a Spider-Mill's "legs" fly upward from a single anchor, and quasi-spiderweb structure on a vertical plane would be ideal WECS infrastructure.

Note that "spider" trope works for spider-body and spiderweb as both "spider-like". The defining spidery quality is a star-network topology of one-to-many.


On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:51 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: Spider Kite Systems
Spider-web domes: 
Sample from Australia: 

Legend:
  •  trope :: a word, phrase, or image used in a new and different way in order to create an artistic effect

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15387 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

Yes,
Those rings would scale to pulleys. My concern in the last posting is the safety issues implied with the tensed lines as they run over the surface.

Re That model... with 3 tethers,  did you limit the central join travel to a circular distance from the centre?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15388 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
The secret of prolific "10 min" prototyping is to simplify to deep essentials, so the rings served perfectly well, instead of fancy micro-pulleys, to show isotropic functioning. Mature prototypes take years to perfect in every detail.

Concern over surface sweeping lines is addressed by strict avoidance (spatial clearance). The lines could operate close overhead at the surface, and workers pass under in safety trenches or tunnels at crossing places. All TRL-9 details.


On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:57 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15389 From: Rod Read Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation

My question was really about joining the tethering together underneath...
With an even number of tethers can you attach only opposite tethers...  And thus run the connected links underground?
Or does the tether set need to join?

I think in the case of the 10 min plate experiment the plate rigidity plays a strong part.
With the joint point of a joined tether set pulled to windward underneath to a point defined by average tension vector ... Uneven tether shortening is applied by the movement of the joint. tether tension vectoring through the pulleys will be.... Affected.
I'm attempting a more 10 hours or  10 days software and soft kite model.

The tethers may well be TRL9. The system whole has never once been seen I suspect.

I'm thinking a better net dynamic will come from individually mapped tether extension controls...
Whether or not we can devise the appropriate KIS mechanical mapping of the desired response for ideal wind case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15390 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
There were also soft variants of this line of easy experiments, and the key detail was either a "ski rib" in the (LE) margin or a small pilot-lifter connected to hold up the LE.

The line nexus on the ground does sweep such that a fixed set of buried conduits would bind up, so the lines need freedom to shift about, or a rope "equalizer" of some sort. Trimming lines is ordinary sailing- high TRL.

There did not seem to be any serious barrier to making simple tilting kixel sails and kite domes; just kite cleverness required. At least Gordon never declared, "Nature abhors tilting kite domes" ;^)


On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 11:51 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15391 From: Rod Read Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: beginner question on lifter triangulation
I have a 3d simulation model just about made...
It animates the line drags fine .... typical... just need to convince it to also animate the lift kixel inputs...
oh well
tomorrow hopefully


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15392 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Tethered-Wing Rotator

Patent US2561760 - Toy airplane rotator

Frank E. Stifter, filed in 1945


And

 Patent US1728245 - Aeroplane toy

Benjamin C. Merritt, filed om 1928

 

and 

Patent US2947108 - Centrifugal flying toy
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15393 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Brumfield

Elmer B. Brumfield

Rotary kite

Patent number: 2793829
Filing date: Mar 2, 1953
Issue date: May 1957

Patent US2793829 - Rotary kite
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15394 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact

In a book dedicated to kite craft, circa 1914 or 1915 by Miller, in a section of "Kinds of Kites" there is clear noting on page 21: 


http://www.energykitesystems.net/KiteLiteratureClips/Year1914Series.JPG 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15395 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact
Kite trains are ancient (ie. Chinese centipedes). Pocock's system used trains. Hargrave, Cody, Baden-Powell, weather-kites, and many others flood to mind, all pre-1912.

What train claim context are you in?




On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:25 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15396 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2014
Subject: Re: Train claim in 1948 is emptied by at least circa 1912 fact
The topic regards the train type where sub-tethers are not used, that is, Holland claimed in 1948 patent that he was first.  One main line with train of wings attached to that main line. One line. So, the topic is not about two lines or three lines training wings.  Holland apparently missed seeing the prior art exampled in at least the examples shown in posts.  The topic illustrates also how patent claims may be invalidated by prior art. The patent office did not catch Holland's claim as untrue, but let the claim ride through to approval. 
~ JoeF


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15397 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
http://youtu.be/szFdcNvamVQ

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15398 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Anchors-winches being arround the istotropic kite, take-off seems easier by pre-tensioning with winches.

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15399 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

The video didn't model a take off.
Just a dynamic balance of the line drag and kite lifts for that setup.

If you mean power take off PTO, that was the purpose of suggesting that the isotropic kite modelled could spin.