Reinhart,   AWE ROI focus clearly beats Doug's discredited disc efficiency claim, especially as he tilts his rotors, depends on a highly stressed torsion tube, & is stuck low. These issues have been very exhaustively debated on this forum. Conventional turbines thus dominate surface wind energy, but won't scale well for airborne use due to cubic scaling mass penalty.   Powerful airborne wind energy is in fact well shown in ship towing, so you need not wait. The various 10kw (40kw record") class electric AWE demos should hardly be dismissed as "a couple of watts". They are scaling up even as you read this.    Its futile to lament that AWE is but a "new born baby". Instead let's revel in the wonder of this brief childhood phase. What Doug seems to miss is how cool it is that current small AWE trickle chargers can self-fly hundreds of feet high in superior wind while a far more expensive tower-based system sits idled in calm surface air. This is true in many common conditions (like night-time, valleys, low-wind regions, etc.) where a calm surface inversion or turbulent layer develops under an enhanced low-level-jet (LLJ) layer. Thus, in many a race to, say, charge a battery, the cheap kite toy will score over anything stuck on the ground.   Lets all agree that high-power AWE should not come too fast, out of safety concerns,   dave

SkySails has done many things right-

Hello,
I will try to develop a kite control system at TU Delft, begining the
1st of July. I might need four years, but I am optimistic, that we can
publish our results in an open source manner.
I have some safety critical knowledge in the field of the development of
realtime control systems, because I was working in the field of medical
device development for five years.

Best regards:

Uwe Fechner

dave santos schrieb:

(I put again the precedent deleted message,with light complement)

Fine analysis.

Possible studying steering systems according to scale and use of AWECS:
-complete automation
-semi-automation
-no automation
       with
-active control:automatic control or human control (for example for cell phone charger as toy) 
-passive control (KiteLab' searches).

An example of mixt of complete and semi-automation and ground-based and flying based (pod) automation:
http://www.skysails .info/english/ products/ the-skysails- technology/ system-component s/steering- system/ .Pod advantages are allowing only one line,and also an easier steering because control lines are close to the wing.That compensates inconvenience of aloft avionics.

PierreB

Wind turbines started out as stable physically, able to run unattended by their mere physical configuration, and only now begin to employ architecture that would be unstable without the computer controls, though the simplest turbines are still the most reliable.

Same with aircraft - the old way said they had to fly stable if the pilot took hands off, still a good idea for most aircraft.

So I imagine airborne wind energy will start out as physically-stable platforms, then maybe morph into systems that are stable only by computer eventually as confidence is gained with any machine that proves to deliver economically-useful power in any setting.

The problem with physical stability controlled only by software is when something unexpected happens like a lightning strike or any electric spark for that matter, let alone an EMP.
:)
Doug S.

Cleantech has a link to a possible source of funding for renewable energy porjects, see:
 
http://cleantech.socialgo.com/forum/topic/717
 
Harry

---

30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter now

Uwe,   You have a very fun project ahead. The basics are easy, but perfection is an intractable solution.   What sort of kite platform will you be working with?   What sort of sensor suite?    What sort of control architecture?   Thanks for details,   daveS

Following pointed note by Dave Santos,

http://www.energykitesystems.net/SafetyCriticalKnowledge/index.html 

invites e-mail as well as anonymous online data input.

Papers are also invited for AWE Journal with the same focus.

Also, FairIP and CoopIP articles are invited on safety-critical matters for AWECS.

JoeF

 

 

http://tinyurl.com/SkySailsSteeringLIFT

Toward PierreB   link ... in prior post.

http://tinyurl.com/ElectroMotivePulseLIFTgeneral

in support of Doug Selsam's  placing EMP on the table.

 

Howdy fellow Imagineers, just wanted to let everyone know:

Popular Science Magazine
June 2010 Page 51 (bottom 1/4 of the page)
"The Sky Serpent", 2008 Invention of the Year,
the machine we flew at Oroville
on Newsstands now...

also
Popular Mechanics Online currently features two (2) Superturbines:
1) A photo of the tower-mounted prototype originally built and tested for The California Energy Commission, showing G.E. windfarm below in background;
2) A rendering of the offshore version in AWE mode, with the driveshaft greatly extended, supported at the distal end by a blimp.
LINK:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/solar-wind/4324331

also
Windpower Engineering Magazine has now published their current print article on offshore & AWE Superturbine(R) technology on their website.
LINK:
http://www.windpowerengineering.com/policy/news/clever-ideas-float-more-than-a-turbine/

I was thinking about my recent post discussing hydrogen stored underwater in bags and realized that the overall efficiency is probably not as low as I had cited since the hydrogen does not have to be highly compressed using this method, depending on depth. To Dave S.: I do agree that storage of gas underwater in bags is a clever idea. Maybe this would be a good option for natural gas storage too, especially at such point as we are harvesting methane ices from the ocean bottoms, said to contain more energy than all the oil, coal and gas in the world combined. Ironic that these ices screwed up the attempt to stifle the oil leak in the gulf. (That said, I think mother nature would clean up the spill without a problem using her bacteria that love organic matter as food.)
Still though, the general inefficiency of using hydrogen as an energy storage medium is well-known, and however clever underwater bags for gas storage may be, storing energy does not really get us to AWE per se.
Doug S.
714-992-5594

The search meter comparison between

EMP for electromotive pulse is at  1/1000 th of that for

EMP for electromagnetic pulse:

http://tinyurl.com/ElectroMagneticPulseLIFTofEMP

The Hydrogen Association is looking at the same storage system used by the natural gas industry . . . . .  flushed salt domes . . . . there are about 500 of them in the south-central USA (around Texas). Some emptied salt domes can measure up to 1-mile in diameter by up to 6-miles in vertical height, including the dome-shape roof that has its peak some 2000-feet or more below ground surface.
 
 
Harry

 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:58:56 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] underwater hydrogen storage

 

Application for patent filed in 2009

METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR OPERATING AND CONTROLLING
AIRBORNE WIND ENERGY GENERATION CRAFT
AND THE GENERATION OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY USING SUCH CRAFT

Click images for full instructions in the application for patent.

Control remarks?  Etc.

Another application, different title:

Apparatus for generating power using jet stream wind power
 Filed 2009 APPLICATION

Click images for full instructions.

Atmospheric Resources Explorer

Tiago Da Costa Duarte Pardal of Lisboa (PT)
and Marco Aurelio Baptista De Almeida Freire of Voorhout (NL)

 

Lamar Baker's Ezekial Saw The Wheel,
1943
Oil and tempera on canvas.
36 x 42 in. Columbus Museam, GA.

A Force for Change: African American Art and the Julius Rosenwald Fund
http://www.montclair-art.com/press_spertus/   is the source page.

 

Remarkable eyesight.  Zeke saw a double step-down drive for a high-torque window  with a very high loading on the secondary belt, and heavenly locomotive oilers in their coveralls, but no  bearings  for  them to  attend to.  I wonder if  he also saw it in triplicate, as we do.

Bob

The artist's concept clearly depicts a pulley-loop groundgen prophecy more or less exactly like KiteMotor1. The cherubim kite-pilots are realistic even if modern wingsuits are not yet so picturesque. Apparently the FAA granted full airworthiness certification for operation over populated areas.   Its the divine counter-vision to the "stealth-bombers-on-extension-cords" over a desolated landscape shown during Google/Makani's TED Talk ;^)

Hi I'm wondering if any AWE people will be at AWEA Windpower 2010 in Dallas next week? I'll be there Monday & Tuesday. Give me a ring if you are there and want to say hello.
Doug Selsam
cel 714-749-3909

Dave S.,
I understand your frustration but with out a patent investors dont want to invest, and then you are back to zero.
I file my patent to have some freedom, for a limited time, from competition allowing me to pay back the people that invested in my idea. Too many on this forum and other forums trying to create something, put down capitalism, but its the best thing for humanity, history has proven this.
Spacecannon


---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Spacecannon,   Far from being "frustrated", i already enjoy & eagerly look forward to fighting high-stakes mine-field & junk patents. Your investors may see the AWE market won by investment in public-domain art & that a preoccupation with picking patent winners was a trap. An average patent battle these days costs millions.   Good luck with your "smallholder" patent, you have worked hard to earn it. My complaints are directed at patent abuse underwritten by 800lb gorillas like Google.org,   daveS

It is unfortunate that Google seems to have 'missed' it in the AWE fray. Yet, most people including my humble self appreciate the greater good Google has done our world outside AWE. I will suggest we be less harsh in our criticisms. Regards. JohnO

Thanks, DaveS. Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA ( www.aweia.org ) is positioned to champion this cause with the support of all. I am not sure this forum will be the right and proper place to share the burden. Committed and registered members of AWEIA will in my opinion best share the responsibility under the Industry Association's banner. Regards. JohnO president protem - AWEIA

Introduction to  Soaren

via updated

Tethered Aviation 

 

My experience with patents says, if I had it to do over, I'd work more on the turbines first, get everything worked out with the machines, then file patents later, and the patents would be better because they would include the improvements.
I detect the phenomenon here of people feeling somehow intimidated by the patent process, or feeling "on the outside looking in", that sort of thing.

But the points all seem moot in that, without a system for sale that is a reliable and economic energy solution in any way, how are the existing patents stopping or slowing any progress?
Mostly it looks like one more excuse to remain forever in the all-talk format, lamenting a system that, while not perfect, has been well-accepted and utilized by industry for hundreds of years, during wghich we have gone from riding horses to space travel in the amount of time where civilizations normally undergo little if any change at all.

Please realize, any patent holder is paving the way for your success too, in that if any system is designed that utilizes someone else's patented idea, one may engage that patentee as an ally and go forward in a better position than if no patents had been filed. The inventor paves the way for others to drive down their road of innovation. Fair I.P. was the reason the patent system was started. Sure the system is not perfect and if anyone gets frustrated with it, I am at the front of the line, but I would think of patents like traffic lights: They help regulate the flow of progress. Endlessly complaining about the mere existence of patents is not going to get anyone anywhere in this field in my opinion.

Patents seem to be like windmills in a neighborhood:
People who own one love them and people who don't, don't.
Patents are like traffic lights. Yes they can be frustrating and can slow or stop progress momentarily, but do they stop you from driving across the U.S.? Would you say "We can't ever drive across the country because at last calculation there are 1000 traffic lights that must be crossed, all designed to completely stop your progress"?
No that would be silly - the traffic lights actually help you get across safely, while indeed causing some momentary frustration and delay.

Fair I.P. has to start with I.P. period.
Doug Selsam
714-992-5594

My critique of patents only applies to the negative effects, which are widely acknowledged. Even Microsoft is agitating for junk-patent reform. Before patents existed people still invented quite nicely. FairIP/coopIP is voluntary (honor system) & does not rest on legal monopoly, but formal ethics.   Also, capitalism has terrible instances; like slavery, war profiteering, & consumer defrauding. What is proposed is a reformed capitalism, based on sound business ethics, combined with Culp's "feral capitalism" AWE, where a garage start-up can topple giants by pure merit, not IP gaming.   Note: While Google.org's narrow weak & stealthy AWE play has earned ridicule, we can still hope they reverse course & broaden investment to include academia & the many worthy efforts outside the "connected" Makani circle.

DaveS noted " Note: While Google.org's narrow weak & stealthy AWE play has earned ridicule, we can still hope they reverse course & broaden investment to include academia & the many worthy efforts outside the "connected" Makani circle."   I believe Google will indeed do better availing more hands their generous support than engaging in a 'competition' as it presently seems in an area outside their core competency.   JohnO

 Perhaps Google allowed themselves to be (MIS)guided by somebody's impeccable academic credentials. Very few successful pieces of technology had their origins in academia . . . . most successful technological innovations came courtesy of the Thomas Edisons and Henry Fords . . . . hands-on entrepreneurial types who built workable pieces of technology that became successful.
 
 
Perhaps the most successful breakthroughs in airborne wind power will have origins outside of academia.
 
 
Harry

 

I agree that patents can have a downside.
Witness the pharmaceutical "industry" where well-accepted and effective herbal remedies that have served mankind for thousands of years are declared illegal, and used for nefarious underground profiteering at the highest levels, while inferior but newly-patented synthetic substitutes are promoted endlessly to doctors, until their patents expire, whereupon newer, and even more inferior synthetic substitutes are promoted directly to the consumer on TV, in ubiquitous ads that seem designed to appeal to mental patients, and to recruit/create new ones.
I guess every good thing has a bad side. Build a bridge but workers get killed in accidents. Manufacture cars so we can get around, yet they are the leading cause of death for young people. At the same time, the miles driven are far safer than using horses. So in the field of patents, like everything else, we take the bad with the good.
Superturbine(R) technology is now patented and/or patent pending in the U.S., Canada, Australia, India, all countries of the European Union, and China.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com

Harry,   Google.org is said to have picked the Makani team based on social connections with a Google founder, but the full story is lost in the stealth culture. Far from "impeccable", the academic credential of the the former Chief Scientist was a Doctorate in Media Arts from MIT's Media Lab, which did enhance Makani's media splash & helped bring visibility to the AWE field, but was apparently not the right stuff to ace fundamental aerospace.   The current Makani Stanford PhD CTO's background is in astronomy hardware & his deepest prior "aerospace" experience seems to have been a poorly conceived water-skiing kite. These are not disqualifications nor impeccable credentials. In fact, many prestigious universities have become academic puppy-mills cranking out vast numbers of mediocre PhDs. Joby has gone on a PhD newbie buying spree, even as credentialism sinks deeper in crisis.   Academia does have a distinguished record in parallel with hard-boiled R & D. Computer science, aerospace, & biotech all have strong academic underpinnings. Look what Dr. Goddard accomplished. Its unlikely the Wright Brothers would have succeeded without the mentor role of Octave Chanute, a practicing engineer with much relevant published research.   What we urgently need academia for is the independent validation of AWE's best concepts free of marketing investment bias. A little money put in the hands of grad students goes very far as the parent institution represents a huge subsidy in facilities & basic life-support for the scholar. Google could have funded a vast amount of academic brain-power with the money Makani happily blew on Maui research, golden compensation packages, & prestige real estate leasing.   In particular TUDelft & LeuvenU are academic examples of quality focused AWE study. Our own Cristina & Ken are examples of high profile academics leading the informing of the world as to AWE's potential. Good academics are quite accessible & work well with others compared to stealthy Venture Capitalists intent on commercial monopoly. For my part, i am a proud undergrad at the University of Texas for over thirty years ;^)   daveS

Welcome  member Malcolm Phillips Click through image for full instructions.

That click through is one patent filed in 2002 and issued in 2005.

 

Here is another from Malcolm Phillips, filed in 2005 and  issued in 2007:

Click:

Hi Dave,
 
 
I had been led to believe that Makani's was a MIT PHd in engineering . . .  your clarification certainly goes far to explain Makani's debacle. I hope that Joby does not go the same route . . . there is an urgent need for good, credible, high elevation wind power conversion technology.
 
Good credible academics such as the research staff at Delft and Leuven along with Chris and Ken seem to be becoming the minority in the world of Phd grads.
 
 
Harry

 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:35:54 -0700
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Still On Google

 

Harry,   In fairness, there have been some impressive newly-minted engineering PhDs toiling in the "top" AWE companies. All are nice bright young people, but its the classic trap of Phaeton or Icarus, they take on too awesome a flight challenge in prematurity. If only there were not those stupid NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) what a story some would tell.   The hiring continues. Count on Joby's recently recruited PhD aerospace-roboticists to be privately freaking as they trip into intractablities of hard-avionics AWECS design. AWE dev runs on hamster years (30-1), so lets expect many of these kids to wise up fast. Especially watch for where the very best of the non-equity galley-slaves jump, that will be a good party...   daveS

Come on guys. Sounds like just a big bunch of sour grapes.

It will require the efforts of all kinds of people to pull off what we're all trying to create.

Inclusion of academics, newly minted young PhDs, seat-of-the-pants garage engineers, experienced aeronautical engineers, deep-pocketed investors, smooth-talking marketeers, and yes even patent attorneys is the only way any of us will make an AWE system a commercial success.

Give it a break and get back to work.

- Dimitri

Dimitri,  
 
        "Give it a break and get back to work." Righto!
 
 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: dimitri.cherny@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:29:18 +0000
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Still On Google

 

Thanks Dimitri, It is important that we remind ourselves the purpose of this forum - To advance the Rapid Development Of Airbone Wind Energy at all scales through open sharing of knowledge. Occasionally, contributions in response to specific individual contributions can be personal. It is vital however that the forum be not turned to a private medium of exchanges that are best handled one-on-one through personal direct emails. We have trusted old members of the forum to know the rules but it seems all need to be reminded yet again. Sincere regards.

Dimitri,   Its far too early for sour grapes. There is nothing more wonderful than this period of exploration.   Your anti-critique post is a valued critique, never mind the irony. We only really disagree on what the actual problems are. We agree on one main point- not all actions in the field contribute to the most positive possible outcome. Let time decide whether the AWE hype bubble or unwelcome critique proves the greater problem.   This is a great moment for you to report Highest Wind's latest progress & not just critique. I am preparing to share some new work as well...   daveS