Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14290to14339 Page 181 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14290 From: David Lang Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14291 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14292 From: David Lang Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14293 From: Rod Read Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Kite reeling / new application

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14294 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14295 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14296 From: dennis stevens Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14297 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14298 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14299 From: David Lang Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14300 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14301 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14302 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14303 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14304 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14305 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14306 From: David Lang Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14307 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14308 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14309 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14310 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14311 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14312 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14313 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14314 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14315 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14316 From: edoishi Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: SkyBow at UT Aerospace

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14317 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14318 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14319 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14320 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14321 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14322 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14323 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14324 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14325 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14326 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Steady-State WECS Estimation Problem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14327 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Steady-State WECS Estimation Problem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14328 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14329 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14330 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14331 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14332 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: SkyBow as ST prior art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14333 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14334 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14335 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow as ST prior art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14336 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14337 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14338 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow as ST prior art?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14339 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: SkyBow-OL Hybrid




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14290 From: David Lang Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
I guess when you start talking about levitating civilization with kites, this is the kind of stuff you should expect :-)
…..interpretation left up to the reader…..

DaveL


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14291 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
More is needed, as the dimensions of the sides are not balanced. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14292 From: David Lang Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
OK…I got it….let's vote on which side of the equation has the correct units.

DaveL


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14293 From: Rod Read Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Kite reeling / new application
Reeling does not have to be the exclusive preserve of the generation set.
Consider ...
Controlled reeling in it's simplest form a drill attached to a fishing reel
Reeling can be used in kite field management
Imagine if you will... Ground level "pods / domes / covers"  with say 8 carabiners poking out the top.
Inside the pod 8 fishing reels (either with selectable engagement to 1 common drive or each with a motor.)

Make a bunch of these.
Dig them into the kite operation field, in an array pattern (hexagonal is my fave)
Know what you've got as live data (5 working reels (2;4;5;7;8); in pod 43; kite field 4)
Model your "smart field " where data on AWE components is network coordinated.

Deploy drones as previously mentioned including new jobs possible.

After drone leading edge launch assist routine := disconnect leading edge reeled restraint lines and steer clip return to reel.

If system status = Low wind landing Then : START Rings and lift kite tie down routine

e.g. lower the rings from the tail of the Mothra and gather on the ground...Attach reel clips according to current dynamic within kite field ...
reel as appropriate, clipping , reeling re clipping, so that rings are bunched with edges tied down.
(drone 14 to fly with 1 clip from reeling pod 23 toward kite ring 3 attachment point 4)

Reel tension (normally being lever or ring controlled) is very easy to set ...
rapid communication with multi point tension addressing would make launching massive kites much safer.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14294 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Doug: "rated-power of wind turbineth ith commonly bathed on (same as) peak power" *** The retract cycle reduces "rated power" by 50%, since a retracting system only uses the generator half the time.  (the original reason for the abandoned "laddermill" concept)  Bad enough, energy used to retract must be subtracted from that already-reduced-by-half-output, perhaps to 1/3 output.  Therefore, about 1/3 "rated output" or 1/3 of "peak output" is about the best continuous, average output you can expect from such a kite-reeling system.  Do you imagine losing 2/3's of your output is not a major factor against a given configuration?  Remember, AWE is competing against systems with continuous output.

So while "20 kW" may be mentioned, it does not take into account the mandatory downtime and the energy lost to retraction.  Therefore, you can "interpret" a stated "20 kW" as "6.6 kW" as a best-case number, with the real number probably closer to 1/4 (5kW), 1/5 (4 kW) or less.  

AWEA ratings dictate power measurement averaged over 10-minute intervals.  More importantly, PPA's pay for kWh, and if you're throwing 2/3 of your kW and h away, you're throwing 2/3 of your revenue away.  Gee, ya think throwing away 66% of output might affect the success/failure of a project?  And without overspeed protection, you cannot expect a continuous peak output because gusts will push the system over peak output, causing failure.

Beyond that, I hereby make a statement of protest that you (as usual) "put words in my mouth" implying I have some sort of "problem" with Ockels.  No YOU have a problem, with anyone and everyone.  I've always seen Ockels and me as having a common vision in the laddermill concept.  I have never had a problem with Ockels, and have in fact stated many times that his memory would be best honored by actually BUILDING a laddermill. 

As I see it, Ockels was likely convinced to get "off-track" by the plethora of Professor Crackpots and just plain people, who tend to instantly take any idea off-track, if listened to.  (Inventors: don't listen to the peanut gallery of crackpots, if they were so smart, THEY would be the inventor.) 

The problem I've expressed is years of hype over laddermill by UDelfts, while somehow avoiding building one, even while yet using the name.  Then their solution was to just stop using the name too, and pursue the same dumbed-down configuration as the rest of the AWE unimaginative go-alongs.  As the original inspired personalities expire, the AWE effort is diluted to nothingness. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14295 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DaveL,

No need to guess: when a giant kite question is explored, one expects a Bell's curve distribution of partially-incorrect answers, just like "space elevator" rabble would generate. If only Drachen's experts would address taboo kite topics like this, *sigh*, we could just copy the right answers.

Anyway, I get 9.81 TWatts (at the moment) as the power to "levitate civilization" (7GigaHumans * 1000kg * 9.81W, disregarding drag-loss), which should help to reveal the predicted Bell "idiot-curve".

I will now recalculate civilization-levitation energy-storage-by-height, to help flesh out the second Bell curve in play (cue drumroll),

daveS




On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 11:01 PM, "David Lang SeattleDL@comcast.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14296 From: dennis stevens Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

I heard there’s a new Vietnamese cookbook out “Ten Ways to Wok Your Dog”.

I see that some things are beyond repair, and posting does no good…I’ll go back to reading for entertainment.

Dennis

 

Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)

Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"dave santos" santos137

I would prefer correcting the other side of the equation, since calculating wattage was my intent. Once again, am racing to go fly kites and walk dog before dark, so will ponder a fix later, unless someone else helps first...

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14297 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Doug,

Bottom line, you attacked a mortally-ill Wubbo referring to rated power of a reeling system beyond your ablity to beat, hallucinating that he really meant average power, and seeing him as a typical wind newbie (but not your better for having come up with the SpiderMill to overcome LadderMill shortcomings).

Get some rehab, dude,

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 8:00 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14298 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Dave Santos said "9.81 m/s2 x 1kg = 9.81W" He multiplied acceleration by mass, (ma) which would yield a force (F), but instead he thinks it is "power".
Amazing, the really DUMB stuff we read here every day.
Thanks for confirming the ongoing theme: "everything you post is wrong..."
In fact, THERE IS NO ANSWER to the question of (how many Watts to sustain a kilo aloft by HTA means)
It would depend on the area, for one thing.  As area increases, the power required asymptotically approaches zero.  As the area DECREASES, the power required approaches infinity.
I've explained this all before, to entirely deaf ears.
Oh well.
That supports thet theme that nobody in this space has any idea what they are talking about, with Dave S. at the head of the pack.  I think this forum should be called The Dave Santos Daily Dose of Insanity Forum - let's just call it what it is.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14299 From: David Lang Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Dennis,

I think you hit the nail on the head - a lot of what I read on this forum can't be fixed with postings, since to do so would be tantamount to conducting remedial engineering classes, but…..keep the humor coming :-)

There's nothing wrong with being ignorant of something….however, it becomes a spectacle when you don't realize that fact and still ramble on as though you do. But, when the "ignorant babble syndrome" reaches its pinnacle, it starts to become so unbelievable as to become humorous.

The DaveS-DougS "Bell-Shaped Rabble-Babble" show (which might fare well as a new TV show…"The Real Engineers of AWE") is what keeps me coming back. Like Doug, who "quits the forum on occasion" (only to return like a "bad nickel"), I think I need an AWE forum 12-step program :-).

DaveL



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14300 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Dennis,

Good Idea. Your degeneration into ethnic slur "posting does no good",

Since you propose to restart reading, try Cross cultural sensitivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 8:31 AM, "'dennis stevens' dstevens67@roadrunner.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14301 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
"Doug, Bottom line, you attacked...Wubbo referring to rated power... hallucinating...he... meant average power"  *** YOU SAID "average power".  I did not "hallucinate".  That was YOUR ARGUMENT, you freaking lying MORON.  And guess what?  Nobody is falling for ANY of your LIES, IGNORANCE, INSULTS, and feeble attempts to endlessly rephrase and mis-characterize every word, said by every sane person.
 
To make yourself look even more ridiculous, you keep trying to rewrite what others have written, attempting to cast others in a bad light.  The fact that I clarify a statement of "20 kW" explaining that "20 kW" really means 5 or 6 kW max, has NOTHING to do with the fact that someone had an ilness.  It is YOU who besmirches the memory of those we've lost by attempting to USE them as fodder for your endlessly-firing cannon of ignorance.  Or is it a fire-hose of ignorance?  How about a firehose of ignorance and a cannon of idiocy, combined with a strong tendency toward dishonest discussion, amounting to a landslide of lies, on a daily basis?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14302 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DaveL,

You are asserting that a 2nd grader joke about Vietnamese dog-eating "hits the nail on the head". As if you and Dennis never made an honest math error; give us a break.

Folks working out math errors patiently is the better side here. Please do not follow Dennis away from kite ideas into the intellectual oblivion of ethnic bias, but stay and help kids with math problems :)

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 9:25 AM, "David Lang SeattleDL@comcast.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14303 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"Dennis, Your degeneration into ethnic slur "posting does no good"...
try Cross cultural sensitivity" *** I am truly amazed at your level of idiocy.  I really did not know it was possible for someone to be this consistently ignorant and obnoxious, making no sense whatsoever, all day, every day.
"Cross-cultural" - what, are you trying to cast your blatant stupidity as a "culture" now, so that arguing with you somehow becomes politically incorrect?  As usual, nice try, idiot.  What a freakin' D-bag!  OMG!!!  Congratulations, you win the D-bag of the year award.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14304 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Doug,

When I guessed (at your insistence) that TUDelft's prototype might plausibly average 20kW, I was mentally accounting for performance upgrades they proposed and presumably have been implementing all along. I am sorry that I comepletely overlooked your fixation on Wubbo, in his mentioning 20kW (presumably as rated-power). In my haste to give you a quick answer, I thought the 20kW figure was maybe Roland's number (therefore not invoking your running human-target list).

I may still be right about current average power potential; but IF wrong, be aware that even AWE experts make mistakes, and only one mentally-unbalanced person freaks out when they do,

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 9:35 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14305 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Doug,

Dennis is no more welcome to ethnic slurs here than you are to use adult language inappropriate to school-age kids. You are both guests here, so respect the norms.

I recently reminded you myself of F=ma, in the context of an honest error of yours. The professional best-practice is to patiently correct error until the job is done, not foam-at-the-mouth. It is a valid theoretic question how much work it takes to sustain a reference mass in HTA flight. We recall your answer is "zero", invoking a mass sitting on a shelf as your gedanken.

Its actually quite profound to ponder if Force can exist outside of time, since a validating measurement would seem to require time. Physics is in an exciting phase as we re-examine truisms you seem to think are settled for all time,

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 9:44 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14306 From: David Lang Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DaveS,

With the exception of you (possibly), 

…..I think my post :
"Dennis, I think you hit the nail on the head - a lot of what I read on this forum can't be fixed with postings, since to do so would be tantamount to conducting remedial engineering classes

….. obviously would be related to Dennis' comment:
 "I see that some things are beyond repair, and posting does no good…I’ll go back to reading for entertainment."!  

Of course, I am sure now that this will precipitate a diatribe about my poor use of the english language and grammar :-)
Of course, God help me if I were inadvertently politically incorrect.

Do you ever get tired of twisting what people say (making it almost impossible to carry on rational discourse….and you are not the only one so afflicted)! Don't get me wrong, I am not siding with Doug here….since for me, you two are hard to tell apart :-)

DaveL



On Sep 11, 2014, at 9:37 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14307 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"It is a valid theoretic question how much work it takes to sustain a reference mass in HTA flight."  *** No, it is an ignorant question.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14308 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"I am not siding with Doug here….since for me, you two are hard to tell apart :-) DaveL"  ***The difference is, all my messages are wind-powered. :)
I know what I'm talking about, he doesn't.  I post facts, he posts fantasy and wrong statements.  I give people a good-natured hard time, sometimes in a kidding way, he tries to cast every person who flags his disinformation as "a bad person".  I have endless solutions, he has enmdless ignorance on steroids.
But, to a casual observer, PJ had a point when she warned me "If you roll in the mud with pigs, people may mistake you for a pig."
I look at it this way: I'm still alive.  Do the math.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14309 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
"Doug,...I was mentally ... I am sorry...I comepletely overlooked...I thought ...
I may still be right...but IF wrong...even AWE experts make mistakes" ***Dave S. You are NOT an expert in anything but annoying people, and everything you post is wrong.  You were wrong.  you lost the argument.  M'kay, Ace?  You are really not even qualified to post here. Most sentences you write contain multiple errors, way too many to even BEGIN to respond to.  The few of your errors that people regularly flag are the tip of the iceberg of your firehose of ignorance.  Someone has to stand up to people like you.  Or do they?  Maybe we're better of just completely ignoring your posts rather than humoring you by even replying.  Hmmmm....
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14310 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DaveL,

In classical debate and rhetoric, wrongly "twisting what people say" is reliably countered by skillful untwisting, as the facts and logic warrant. Keep in mind that natural language semantics is a high mathematics ("folk" predicate calculus). If there are logical propositions in AWE you feel have been unfairly treated, let me argue for them until you are happy with the balance (or I finally get tired).

OK, you did not intend to imply that Dennis's dog-eating ethnic slur "hit the nail"; it was an accidental result. I present it as an honest semantic math error (the US "political correctness" aspect is best considered in a fuller ethical calculus context, as a characteristic Tea Party complaint, to evaluate on merits).

My goal remains a first approximation result for the original topic (ultimate limits to kite tech*). Rebutting a few emotional responses to arithmetic math weakness is a minor sideshow (too easy to be very tiring). I like you and Doug, and apologize for unintended annoyance,

daveS

* In the same spirit as Kardashev pondered Type II Dyson Sphere civilizations, or you ponder Space Elevators.



On Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:13 AM, "David Lang SeattleDL@comcast.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14311 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Doug,

Maybe TUDelft's demonstrator has not yet passed a 20kW average, and I simply guessed wrong. You were wrong to invoke steady-state output as a WECS possibility in real wind.

Please finally agree that Wubbo did not deserve your suspicion, as you interjected it here, as a topic-troll. Change the topic when you have a personal rant to air.

This topic is to celebrate ongoing progress by TUDelft: Wubbo lives,

daveS

----- my original reply to you ---------------

Doug,

No one thinks this system "really produces 20 kW steady output", and it lacks automated launching and landing. A small AWES is not suited to produce "steady" power, especially given normal wind variations and long-cycle reeling. A storage medium is needed. Nor do we a priori expect Delft to be competitive cost-wise against so many competitors in the same market niche (exotic demonstrators).

The closest to steady AWE power theoretically is a statistical collection of AWES across a large grid, as Cristina Archer modeled around five years ago. In that case,
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14312 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"DaveL, In classical debate...wrongly "twisting what people say" is...countered by skillful untwisting," *** Nobody has time to untwist your warped mind.  That's the thing you don't seem to understand.  Nobody is interested in countering what amounts to mere noise and annoyance.  Nobody cares how deep you want to delve to try and go off-topic, constantly trying to substitute your personal demonization of every (pretty good) joke, or every (at some point hard to resist) swear word.  The fact that YOU fixate on such trivia while constantly accusing others of "fixating" is just one more twisted logic-bomb that comprises your entire logic-deprived state.  People would like to have MEANINGFUL conversations, not be forced to "untwist" the twisted and irrelevant attempts of an abberant mind to generate endless arguments that they are always destined to lose.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14313 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
"Doug, Maybe TUDelft's demonstrator has not yet passed a 20kW average, and I simply guessed wrong." *** Maybe you're an idiot.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14314 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Forgive my ignorance here, but the work done (displacement) is to move a mass of air downward to balance the kilo held aloft. The time dimension is continuous (sustained).

I also don't see any shame in making a mistake and getting corrected. Not correcting if one can, but only complaining, seems the poorer path.

Is there anyone here who can provide the corrected results, or at least patiently explain the fallacies?


sus·tain  (s-stn)
tr.v. sus·tainedsus·tain·ingsus·tains
1. To keep in existence; maintain.


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:33 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14315 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
"You were wrong to invoke steady-state output as a WECS possibility in real wind." ***No, I was right.  Everything you post is wrong.  Come here on a windy day, and you'll see my 10 kW turbine making between 10 and 12 kW steady-state for as long as the wind is at rated speed or above - sometimes hours on end.   As usual, your post is based on ignorance.  My WECS makes rated power as long as the wind is at or above rated wind speed, which can happen on any windy day, assuming you are in a commercially-viable wind resource, which you apparently have no knowledge of.  If you don't have to be careful which way your car is facing before opening the door (lest it be torn off), you are not in a good wind resource.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14316 From: edoishi Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: SkyBow at UT Aerospace
On a hot and windy afternoon in Austin Texas I was able to successfully demo Roy Mueller's SkyBow at the UT Aeroelasticity Lab with Jayant Sirohi and NTK's Michael Lin. Both experts (one in aerospace engineering physics and the other in kite culture) were amazed and delighted by the Skybow's performance - easily launching, gently landing, pulling hard and spinning like mad - all with an eerie soundtrack...

Jayant in particular was impressed at its flight dynamics and wanted to know and see more.  

The three of us discussed the National Science Foundation grant that Jayant is working on in partnership with kPower and New Tech Kites. We are planning a three year PhD level study on rotating kites with built in outreach to local secondary schools.  Although his students were mostly in class during our flight session, Jayant assured me that many of them are eager to get hands on experience with kite dynamics and start playing with the physics..

Roy Mueller invented the Skybow in the late 90's.  At the same time and independently from Roy, Jim Mallos and Tony Frame invented another rotating kite arch which they also called the SkyBow.  The 2 teams corresponded and shared ideas with each other throughout the process. An interesting, thorough (and recent) blog post by Jim Mallos can be read here. He describes the experience as "like playing with an anti-gravity rope"

Ed


cited link:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14317 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Doug,

The dog-wok was not "a pretty good joke", but a conditioned slur. Note that I have never called anyone here "a bad person". Bad ideas are separate entities from the poor vicitms who try to hold them, The good idea here is to be patiently correct AWE errors by collective intelligence. Good for DaveL in lumping us both together, in that light.

 Share some progress, if you want my approval; otherwise expect critique,

daveS




On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:41 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14318 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Correction: An electrical output fluctuating by 2kW is not "steady-state". In your case, its a 20% deviation from 10kW, which is a fairly large fluctuation.

That's how easy it is to untwist "steady-state".




On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:50 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14319 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"Forgive my ignorance here, but the work done (displacement) is to move a mass of air downward to balance the kilo held aloft." ***High school physics: we're talking about momentum transfer versus energy transfer.  Say you fire a gun.  The momentum exchanged is even - the gun and the bullet both acquire the same momentum.  The energy, on the other hand, is almost 100% the province of the bullet, since it travels much faster, and energy is proportional to velocity squared.  That determines the optimal end of the gun to be on.  (hint: the bullet comes out of the barrel)  For the same reason, a huge wing can deflect a LOT of air downward, but at low relative speed, whereby the air gains little energy (little energy is lost to lifting the wing), while yet remaining aloft.  A smaller wing of the same weight would have to deflect less air at a higher speed for the same momentum exchange, and that higher speed air would have more energy, since, again, energy is proportional to velocity squared.  So the smaller wing loses more energy staying aloft, for the same weight.  (By the way, didn't you claim to be "an expert" in aviation?)  That is why a sailplane, being un-powered, requires more wing area than a powered plane.  That is also why planes designed to stay aloft for long periods using little power have a larger wingspan, or more wing surface area.  As pointed out, responding to your level of ignorance takes us back to remedial high school curriculum.  This is all high-school stuff.  I'm not exaggerating when I point out that you're not really qualified to even post here.  It's encouraging to see you admit your ignorance, but it cannot last more than a few microseconds I'm sure.
"I also don't see any shame in making a mistake and getting corrected."
***Your misinformation is in every sentence - nobody can counter such a firehose of ignorance.  One could literally spend the entire day correcting each and every word you type.
"Not correcting if one can, but only complaining, seems the poorer path."
***Nobody has time to deconstruct every sentence you write to correct the multiple errors, confusion, insults, off-topic attempts at changing the subject, and outright lies, in each and every one.
"Is there anyone here who can provide the corrected results, or at least patiently explain the fallacies?" ***Yeah, I think I've explained it several times, over several weeks time, but the "firehose of ignorance" is also "allergic to facts".  Dave S., sorry but I don't think there is a cure for whatever you have.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14320 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"Doug, The dog-wok was not "a pretty good joke", but a conditioned slur."
*** So you're saying they don't put dogs in woks?  I thought he made a good joke.  A simple play on words, that in no way insulted anyone.  See DaveS, there you go again.  You just can't stop yourself, can you?  It's all just about trying to nitpick and twist everything anyone says into something "bad", to try and somehow "gain points".  You are just an idiot!  An internet troll who spends all day calling everyone who corrects your disinformation every name in the book.  It is really sad to see someone go down the path you travel.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14321 From: dougselsam Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
"Correction: An electrical output fluctuating by 2kW is not "steady-state"."
*** wind energy output is measured in 10-minute averaged intervals using the method of bins, of which you obviously have no knowledge, as usual.
"Everything you post of wrong"... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14322 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Doug wrote: "The energy, on the other hand, is almost 100% the province of the bullet"

That's Aristotelian physics. Under Galilean relativity the energy is in the relative motion of the mass of both bullet and Earth.

I could go on correcting, but prefer to get back to the topic.

We are both wrong a lot, but only one of us freaks. AWE will be solved by whoever first finds the correct means, no matter how many mistakes it took.


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:11 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14323 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Wackos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Doug,

Find another Forum to enjoy your off-color standard of humor. Stick to AWE here, following the family-language standard, and solve the troll-issue altogether,

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:19 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14324 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kite power systems in automatic operation
Sorry Doug,

Steady-state has different meanings in different contexts. AWE tech is not the same a tower-based wind. Your definition does not apply well to a reeling AWES, nor to wind natural science.

Try to stay calm next time,

daveS

 


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:22 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14325 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace
Congratulations to Roy Mueller, lead kite scientist at the Aerology Lab, who greatly deserves the honor having his SkyBow studied by US NSF funded aerospace research at UT. Roy's mentor, the Great Jalbert himself, is surely smiling from above...





On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:59 AM, "edoishi edoishi@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14326 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Steady-State WECS Estimation Problem
Lets finally agree with the caution linked below that WECS Steady-State estimations are difficult and "not strictly correct". This is true of regular turbines, and even more so for an AWES reeling cycle. Doug cannot possibly agree, if only by his certainty everything I post is wrong, and Wubbo is getting away ;)

The performance of small wind turbines including annual energy output.

"The determination of the steady state response of a system from tests with randomly fluctuating inputs is a classical problem in system identification and it is not in general a simple problem. To overcome this difficulty, the International Electrotechnical Commission recommends a testing procedure (IEC 61400-12) that, whilst not strictly correct, will give power curves generally of sufficient accuracy for practical purposes. The procedure requires that the wind speed and power output in a normal wind are effectively logged instantaneously at intervals of one second or less. The power output data is then 'binned' at speed intervals of 0.5 metre/second and then an average value of power output obtained from the 'binned' values. 'Binning' means, for example, that all the power readings that occurred between wind speeds of, say, 8.0 and 8.5 metres/second are collected and their average taken as the power output that would be obtained in a steady wind of 8.25 metres/second. There is an assumption in this that the time lag for a step downward change in wind speed is the same as the time lag for an upward step change in wind speed and that the occurence of increasing and decreasing speed events within the 'binned' data are the same. Generally, the IEC procedure will give power curves of acceptable accuracy for practical purpose although some errors will arise from large gust events. Errors will also occur for turbines that use a tail fin to furl the turbine away from the wind at high wind speeds. This furling action behaves quite differently between increases in wind speed and decreases in wind speed. However, this too is not likely to be significant unless the turbine is operating at a very windy site where the furling action is in play for a good proportion of the time."
 

 

 
 
 
 

The performance of small wind turbines including annual energy output.
Calculation of power output from small wind turbines -Bergey Excel 10, Evance, Evance R9000, Skystream, Honeywell Windgate RT6500, Honeywell RT6000

Preview by Yahoo

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14327 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Steady-State WECS Estimation Problem
Continuing the review and analysis of "steady-state" estimates in wind engineering, several facts emerge.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14328 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DougS seems to hold that the "work" question of sustaining 1 kg at a static position in a given reference frame by a kite system in air is an "ignorant question."  Please correct my summary phrasing of your position, if incorrect.    

 We had another topic thread on the issue; the analysis there by Baptiste might be revisited.  DaveS seemed accept a quantity that had units of power, not units of work; so that topic thread very well may need to revisited upon getting some further clarity. But in this topic thread at the above near-recent post  by DaveS has a focus on moving a quantity of air mass a distance to nudge to work matters, it seems; perhaps the work on that air mass has an opposite-directioned pair that results in the problem of "sustaining" the subject 1 kg of mass.    DougS has on the problem care a notice that the 1 kg mass is fixed in position by assumption, does not move, and thus he seems to state that no work is done on that 1 kg mass, as the zero movement of that 1 kg in a [work=force x distance] would have zero for distance resulting in a zero work in that perspective.   How does Newton's action-reaction pair play? 
       The force moving the involved mass of air  is a negative-lift force or downforce. DaveS observes that time is to play a role, if I read his near-recent post in this thread correctly. The downforce moving the package of air involved sustained seems to have a reaction up force in the kite system. Integrating or summing the work done on the packages of air in flow over time seems to be a "work" that may be involved with the main question.  
       My note here is an effort to participate in forming a provable answer to the question about work to sustain a 1 kg mass in a kite system. My note here is not the answer and not a proof of some answer; but maybe parts of the note could be part of a synergy that may lead to a definitive answer that could be proved.    DougS is invited to prove the "ignorant question" statement; however, if holds "0" is the answer to the question, then that would seem to be a counterexample of "ignorant question" conclusion; it might  be difficult to have a numerical physical answer of zero without having the question be with knowledge merit; any serious effort of proof could be instructive, I hold; no need for involving character attacks.
      time rate of change of momentum ?   What frame of reference maybe should be defined for facing the question.   If main wind stream has a horizontal velocity before interaction with the involved kite system, let's assume, then one might explore the momentum of the 1 kg mass with respect to some frame of reference needed to know momentum as velocity seems to need a framework to have positional change for a mass. 

The original question does not state any assumption that the work done is on the 1 kg mass, but the work involved to sustain a fixed position in the airspace. 
    Physicists are invited to answering who notice the question of topic.  Also, those who have an expertise on work in the kite space for air are still invited to the question.  Others without such expertise are also invited to the struggle; I find merit in the dance. 

~ JoeF   
    


 


 


 





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14329 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace
For careful historical merit, one may wish to carefully study Mallos' essays for date clues. And firmly no seeding Roy would be part of the history, if so.  The airfoil (flat) of James Mallos is commented upon by Mallos as he observed that Roy explored non-flat airfoil.   
      A clear historical timeline for both camps might be interesting; any student want to take a stab at such a timeline? 
      ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14330 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace
errata to a more clear sentence:  And firm with facts whether or not there was any seeding from the literature about Mallos' kite for Roy's entry or not.   
Adding: Mallos did not file for a patent on the matter.   And Roy's patent might not about the kite type, but about swivels involved in his version of the kite type. 
More generally, some scholars may wish to make distinctions in the realm of two-anchored flip wings; a start: http://www.energykitesystems.net/FlipWings/index.html   The file is incomplete and does not yet properly incorporate the affects of Mallos' art or RoyM's art. 

  

      ~ JoeF
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14331 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow at UT Aerospace
Joe,

Quite right, Mallos and Frame deserve co-equal credit, and Mallos' report is awesome (worth rereading). Mallos would be one more AE Yalie in AWE (to balance against scappy WPI ;)

Jayent's Lab surely welcomes close collaboration with all SkyBow inventors who, after all, collaborated happily in the previous century,

daveS


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 5:38 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14332 From: dave santos Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: SkyBow as ST prior art?
Could it be that the ST patent overlooks prior-art in the form of the SkyBow?

The SkyBow transmits wind-induced torque down to its anchors, which makes power extraction trivial by anyone skilled in the art of rigging kites.

It seems the ST patent only covers the quite specific designs shown in the drawings, not torque-to-ground wind power as a whole.


------  tech note  ------

Overcoming scaling barriers to torque kites remains a challenge...


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14333 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
"I could go on correcting, but prefer to get back to the topic.  We are both wrong a lot, but only one of us freaks." ***you are wrong, and a freak.  You have corrected nothing, and you've shown that you are immune to reasoning or logic of any kind.  You asked me to explain simple high-school-level physics to you.  I did, and now you're still talking more big-word nonsense trying to deny what any idiot knows.  Go ahead and stand at the wrong end of a gun and when the bullet hits, try using the big words you can't understand to defend against the impact.  You are an impossible case.  I give up - not worth the time to try and explain anything to you.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14334 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
DougS ...hold that..."work"...of sustaining 1 kg at... position...by a kite ... is an "ignorant question." ***Joe, can't read thru your drivel.  The facts:
1) holding a mass at a position inherently takes no power.
2) Using wind to hold up 1 kg requires less and less power as the area and/or wingspan of the kite increases. 
3) using wind to hold up 1 kg requires more and more power as the area and/or wingspan decreases.
4) As the surface area/wingspan of the kite increases, the energy required to hold 1 kg aloft approaches zero.
5) As the surface area area/wingspan of the kite decreases, the energy required to hold 1 kg aloft approaches infinity.

This is because of the difference between momentum exchange and kinetic energy exchange - with momentum exchange being equal between kite and air, proportional to relative wind speed, while the energy exchange is unequal and proportional to relative wind speed squared.

The reason your question, as stated, is "ignorant" is it implies that there is ONE answer.  There is NOT one answer.  The answer DEPENDS on the configuration.
Look at airplanes:  If you have a big wingspan compared to weight, as in a pedal-powered airplane, it takes very little power to keep it aloft.  The ridiculously low power is the reason for the ridiculously large wingspan.  An airplane with the same weight as the the pedal-powered airplane, but with a smaller wingspan, would require MORE POWER to keep it aloft.  THE MASS IS ONLY 1 PARAMETER, NOT SUFFICIENT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.  Any questions?  Sheesh this forum is RIDICULOUS!  These converstations are INANE!  Go back to high school, seriously.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14335 From: dougselsam Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow as ST prior art?
"Could it be that the ST patent overlooks prior-art in the form of the SkyBow?"
*** Could it be that everything you post is wrong?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14336 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Thanks for continued effort in the study, DougS. However, not studying replies and just dismissing as drivel might have you miss some things that might be important in the larger effort.  Your reply still has tinges of personal attack rather; staying on the technical is recommended.   

    Your reply seems to forget that the question was about the quantity "work" as your text moved strongly to "power" which, of course, is distinct from "work."   Also, your reply seems also to have a focus on "enery" in a way seems to get off the "work" which forms the topic of question.   Following the conservation of energy could be part of the scene; energy will be conserved.  But finally we are looking to know what "work" is done in the system to sustain a 1 kg mass in a stable altitude in a kite system that is flying in an assumed steady ambient wind (upwind steady before interaction with the kite system). 

 The question of concern is "What work is done to sustain 1 kg mass at a fixed altitude in a kite system; assume a steady horizontal stream being faced?" [clarifying question]   You state that  the question is "ignorant" for your reason of the question supposedly implying just "ONE"  answer is possible; but I try as I might and I see no implication; surely analysis over the question could open a plethora of answers depending on how the terms and assumptions are understood; until effort is done over the terms and assumptions are done, multiplicity will be possible.    A goal could be that no contradiction or error appearance any of the answers.   Answer variety potential stems from interpretation of terms and assumptions that speak to a scene and not another scene, perhaps.


     Perfected high-school physics perfectly applied to the question would be interesting. Assuming one is perfectly applying perfected high-school physics in an open discussion forum ... followed by missing the mark of such perfect application might bring on need for corrective discussion to the blessing of participants and later readers. 

     In your reply, there seems to be an internal contradiction: "takes no power"  and then "less and less power as ..."  That is, although the involved text seems to foret the topic "work", the statements about power form a contradiction, as "less and less" implies absolute value non-zero change; such is not "no" but some. Thus the contradiction. Such would need to be clarified or cleared before such analysis would fly. 

In an operating kite system work is being done in various ways.  A kite system needs its parts: stream, anchoring set, wing set, tether set.   The question of topic has the mass of the kite system involve at least 1 kg mass however situated (perhaps shared in the tether set or wing set; I see late now that answering is being sought where the mass of 1 kg subject is not simply buried in the anchor set, but rather in the tether or wing set, even perhaps as a complex part of tether system as line laundry; we could have simply that the subject system could be that the wing set and tether set combine to have 1 kg mass total, as a case).     Examining what "work" is done to sustain the 1 kg is again, not a power question.  Work is not a  time-rate quantity.

Different topic is the power question; interesting, but aside from the topic question.

Summing work over time and reporting the sum for a minute or hour or day or year would still be summing work. Differently would be stating a time rate (a power matter).  One might get a penny here and here and here, etc. during an hour's duration.   One may state that in the hour 5 cents was received.  One might also state that the rate of reception was 5 cents/hour.   But one might only care to have the 5 cents in pocket with no care of the rate of reception.     What work is done in a kite system to sustain 1 kg in a stable altitude position; without the work in mind, the 1 kg would fall some away from the assumed stable altitude.  Forces moving masses without which the 1 kg mass falls some?   The question has the 1 kg not moving in some fixed frame of reference; so what mass is left to consider? The mass of the air part of the kite system.  Hence, what work is done on the mass of the involved air to sustain the 1 kg of mass in the question?  Work involves force. What forces are involved for the question. The forces are acting to move the air while conserving energy in the system and momentum in interactions. And we are looking at vector quantites in the forces and movement direction to know work sums.  Vertical components might suffice. To sustain 1 kg in a stable altitude is a vertical component subject.    The subject mass in the vertical direction has zero velocity with respect the earth-surface frame. Hence the subject 1 kg mass is not with any vertical momentum; its mv is m0=0.   

    My notes of participation hold not any proof of any answer to the question of topic, but might have some things that someone could use toward some answer; proving answers are allowed to come later.  Disproving step answers is often part of a proof-finding process; proving statements within a larger proof is part of a proof process.   Assumptions implicit and explicit form proofs; if any assumption essential to a proof process holds a key contradiction, then the proof could fall.    An answer without contradictions that could be followed by a clear proof by someone or others is sought.   In a valid answer and proof, one need not find attacks on people's intellectual or psychological or social or religious status, so such conduct is invited; focus on the technical!   And as demonstrated, errors in the process need not deter the movement toward success; indeed, honest errors can play roles that help the positive process. Same for "drivel" or "stumbles" or "off-topic sidebars"; that is value may often be derived from the fuzzy flow; the study load regarding a question is not a stubble-free zone when real humans are involved.    All serious efforts are invited, regardless of your prior experiences, studies, awards, degrees, works .. Experts and non-experts are invited to explore the question and contribute a partial or full answer with or without proof; but proof attempts are also welcome. Sharpening during the facing of a small question might up the skill set for the group in readying for facing other questions. 

~ JoeF


    

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14337 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: Seven Trillion Kilos Aloft (levitating civilization)
Doug wrote: "You asked me to explain simple high-school-level physics... "

 All I really ask is for you to share AWES R&D progress on the Forum without recourse to adult profanity and crude emotional abuse, so high-school-level kids can follow polite discussion. 

Your physics does not explain the following- To keep a kilo up by aerodynamic means, the essential requirement is generating lift on the mass by moving air down. 

You propose the best strategy is a huge wing area using the kilo mass. One can't just lay a large sheet in mid-air; it collapses. A Single-Skin wing is the biggest stable wing area, by mass. The counter strategy is to use the kilo to make a fine rigid wing.

In both real-world cases, the sink-rate is remarkably similar (KiteLab finding), so your theory begins confused. Both cases store the same potential energy, and without extra power, both consume the stored energy comparably in glide. To keep them aloft, both cases require comparable power (by respective propulsion design).

There is no such aircraft as you propose that can maintain HTA flight, by downward air motion, without power (perpetual motion fallacy). There is an ideal minimum power requirement, which we are considering here, and then real-world drag forces to account for in design.

Note that you are increasingly insulting JoeF, which he does not deserve. Please do carefully read his polite responses to you, and reply in kind.




On Friday, September 12, 2014 8:20 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14338 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow as ST prior art?
Its possible, I guess; but if any single statement of mine is shown true, the wishful-fantasy collapses.

In the ST patent case, you need to prove wrong the key assertion, that the '90s SkyBow is prior art, as a means to transfer upper-wind energy to the surface by torque.

Good luck trying to prove this self-evident fact wrong...


On Friday, September 12, 2014 9:04 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14339 From: dave santos Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: SkyBow-OL Hybrid
The SkyBow is a special kind of arch-kite. KiteShip's OL ship kite, studied in staked-out scenario, inspired Mothra as a megascalable kite-arch, with modular sails on rope load-paths, as the key advance. The integration of these two arch concepts has interesting potential as a novel AWES hybrid.

A single SkyBow is scale-limited by tensile strength of a thin ribbon-wing and the need for a stiff chord. If an OL kite's TE where replaced by a fenestration pattern of load-path SkyBows, a large integrated WECS array would be created, with the summed output of many ribbon-wings.

The central seam of the OL would be the power and structure bus for rows of small high rpm generators. The power cable would drop right to the center of the kitefarm cell along the rear "brake" line, and the two side lines would secure on the anchor-circle, just as any other arch.

Mallos noted that launching a single SkyBow is limited by the need to hold it entirely aloft for it to fire-up. The SkyBow-OL hybrid concept overcomes that limit by launching and landing just like an OL already does, taking its embedded SkyBows up and down collectively.

CC 4.x BY NC SA