Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14089to14138 Page 177 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14089 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14090 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Transparent Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14091 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14092 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Perch-Fields

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14093 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14094 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14095 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14096 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14097 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14098 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14099 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14100 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14101 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14102 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14103 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14104 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14105 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14106 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14107 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: launching control for large kite systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14108 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14109 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14110 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14111 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14112 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade for fighting desertification.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14113 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Perch-Fields

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14114 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14115 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14116 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14117 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14118 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Perch-Fields

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14119 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14120 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14121 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14122 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14123 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade for fighting desertification.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14124 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14125 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14126 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14127 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14128 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Cody Kite Stage Method for Parallel Kite-Lattices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14129 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14130 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14131 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14132 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: cooperative relevance pie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14133 From: dougselsam Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14134 From: dougselsam Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: cooperative relevance pie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14135 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: cooperative relevance pie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14136 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14137 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14138 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Historic RATs on untethered aircraft




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14089 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling
More generally, everything in engineering science is quantified by suitable metrics, so we need only note so once, not topic-by-topic. Quantifiying shade for all critical factors would be a complex calculation, and we can't even quantify AWE ROI properly.

Lets accept our lot as heroic primitives, and let future specialists refine endless niches upon our rustic focus on flying rag and string for power on a grand scale.


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:37 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14090 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Transparent Wings
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14091 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
"the shade branch of AWE is one of hundreds of AWE branches or sectors" - ***I disagree.  I say there IS NO "shade branch" of AWE, at all.  The closest thing is you, merely saying so.  Shade is not energy.  Period.  The fact that Dave S. will automatically agree with whatever you post here goes without saying - meaningless.  He merely enjoys arguing, especially against facts, without basis. 

The reason you guys will never crack the code at this rate is you give up on AWE every day, through attempts to redefine AWE to be whatever kite-related, stretched yet watered-down idea you come up with that day.  AWE is airborne wind energy, not "providing shade".  Providing shade is NOT producing energy.  Period.  Ask last week's hero, Fort Felker of The National Wind Technology Center, if providing shade is a form of wind energy. 

You guys really take the cake - an order of magnitude more ridiculous than any obstinate, lame-ass, resistant-to-facts, would-be, wannabe, wind energy inventor I have ever seen.  The idea that anyone with their ignorant, proposed, 100% solidity wind energy solution (aren't they all?) would retreat to claiming that its mere shadow somehow represents "the generation of energy" makes any previous wannabe wind energy lies pale in comparison. 

Sure Joe, you can't generate even a single Watt, so now we are supposed to be impressed that a kite has a shadow?  And call that AWE?  You are sounding more and more desperate every day.  I think you have finally completely fallen off the back of the turnip truck.  :) Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14092 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Perch-Fields
A kite perch is a raised launching, landing, and tie-down point. Many AWES concepts presume a perch (and reel), often with a cradle for a kiteplane, to land and launch from. A stand-alone single perch is just the simplest case. 

A perch reel at the center of a tri-tether can enable fully deterministic kite control-authority by controlling all four lines together. The kite unit can be launched, step- or circle- towed aloft, swept crosswind, landed, secured, and so on, without undue risk of interference with the surface.

A field of perches can host a single extended kite array up to even planetary-scale lattices. Perch points create a place for an AWES to rest suspended over surface features. A mix of kite perches and surface anchors to host airborne lattices has many synergistic advantages to explore.

CC 4.x BY SA NC
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14093 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling
You are welcome to put up a 5000 sq ft kite to shade my garage in the summer, anytime.  Isn't that the size of kite that sets world records and then kills the participants?  I guess if we need shade when there is no wind we are screwed, oh well.  And a 5000 sq ft kite might get a bit difficult when the winds get strong in the afternoon too. 

You'd have to maintain a very close watch on upwind wind speeds, since if you wait til the strong winds arrive, it may be too late to bring the giant kite down.  But as long as you don't mind launching a 5000 sq ft kite every day, meticulosuly keeping its shadow on the garage, then pulling it down if the wind either weakens, or threatens to get stronger, perhaps several times in an afternoon, it will be great.  :)  Let's hope a dust devil doesn't come through - but they always do, so that will be a problem.

Of course no matter how great it works, it will never be AWE, just as rolling on the ground while laying down is not "walking"...  Well, unless you change the definition of the word "walking".  Sorry, I forgot, you will change any definition of any word as many times as necessary to make any previous statement seem "true"... (sigh)  Oh well, at some point you are simply beyond help!

Anyway, OK I have a schedule for you.  Could you please fly a 5000-sq-ft kite with variable transparency over my garage and make it 50% transparent til 9:00 AM, then transition to 100% transparent by 11:00 AM, later bringing it down if upwind wind speeds reach 30 MPH?  But then relaunch if winds get weaker again?  But stay on task to keep launching and bringing it in all day as wind conditions change?  And bring it down if a dust devil approaches?  And do you mind relocating the anchor point all day as the wind direction changes, so the kite remains over the garage?  And, oh, can you please watch out for the power lines?  Oh good, thanks!  That will take a big load off the ~250 Watts the commercial evaporative cooler uses to keep it cool all day right now.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14094 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
What Doug fails to realize is that any application of kites in wind is a valid wind power case, from kite-sports and pulling ships, to electrical generation. The AWES Forum embraces them all. He also is culturally intolerant of engineering brainstorming, and does not understand the open value of JoeF raising unusual angles to AWE. If only Doug had something actually useful and positive to contribute. Rod baiting him into inept climate-change denial does not count.


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:26 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14095 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: National Bowtie Day
Profethor Crackpot doesn't want you to forget: Today ith "National Bowtie Day".

He'th deigned that a thymbolic logo of himthelf be uthed to denote the holiday: Home - National Bow Tie Day 2014

 NATHIONAL BOWTIE DAY _ THAY IT, Don't THPRAY IT!  :)))

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14096 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
"What Doug failth to realithe is that"... that Dave Eth ITH Profethor Crackpot!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14097 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Stupidest Forum Post Ever.

Doug has nothing positive to teach in AWE.


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:06 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14098 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine
I'd say the worst argumentative newbie-idiot ever to strike wind energy was the promoter of HelixWind, several years back.  Toby Kinkaid relentlessly argued with the experts, including me, and the other 3 experts (including Paul Gipe) in the following article, for months on end, always claiming superiority, never giving an inch as he lavishly poured his complete ignorance of wind energy upon us, as though "debating the experts" could rescue his lack of understanding: (remind you of anyone?)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/08/120820-helix-wind-collapse/
Ooops - looks like HelixWind went bankrupt after wasting something like 40 million dollars?  Sheesh that could buy a small windfarm!  Ignorance knows no bounds!
The article says the Philadelphia Eagles at first wanted 80 of the crappy turbines, but reduced the number after realizing the 100% solidity rotors would cause too much shade! 
You can look up the Eagles' symbolic, not very effective turbines: They chose a different vertical-axis design in the end, NOT HelixWind.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14099 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine
Tho anywayth, the good Profethor was thelling (selling) hith HelixthWind 100% solidity turbine to a building owner, telling him it would eliminate the electric bills.
When the owner reported back to the profethor, he said "This turbine makes basically NO power - ever!  What's up with that?"

Well that'th when the good profethor went ballistic:  Look Mr. Cuthtomer, I thaid it would reduthe your energy billth, and ath far ath I can thee, thith 100% tholidity turbine ith providing thome shade to your building.  It ith eathy to calculate the thavings from your air-conditioning bill, therefore our performanth thatementth remain intact.

Oh, OK professor, I've got a bridge to thell you, and altho, have you heard about the new type of air conditioner utilizing an old car door?  Yes, you sit next to the car door, and if it gets too hot, you can roll down the window!

Hey Joe, I have a new form of AWE for you.  A new "branch":  Tie a kite to an old car door.  When it gets too hot, you can roll down the window!  Kite-energy in the form of air-conditioning!  Another "branch" of AWE for you!  Congratulations, Joe!  :)))


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14100 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"Stupidest Forum Post Ever." *** except all of yours  "Doug has nothing positive to teach in AWE."  ***except exactly how to do it
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14101 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
Doug,

You are the one here who famously down-selected on a crackpot AWES scheme (rotating tower) in total ignorance of scaling-law physics (not to mention F=ma). Endlessly calling all others crackpots only highlights your confirmed status as AWE's sole Alpha-Crackpot.

By on-topic comparison, JoeF's shade topic beats a sterile ProfC obsession (I hung out under a giant Peter Lynn Octopus, as the best available beach-shade during WSKIF). Expect to be left behind if banal mockery is all you have to offer,

daveS





On Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:08 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14102 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine
Doug,

Toby Kincaid is just a failed VAWT promoter like you are (the ST is a VAWT to the degree it tilts upward),

There is no argument with Gipe (he corrected his Makani gaffe),

daveS


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:50 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14103 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
You definitely are not teaching the world "exactly how to do AWE" by clinically obsessing* on bow-ties and dandruff, but only claim to know how, without offering any technical evidence.

If you really knew how, why did you instead only patent a VAWT that cannot possibly scale to even the initial (FAA-approved) 2000ft for testing?



* ask a professional profiler if you doubt this diagnosis. Here's a link-

 


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:50 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14104 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
Thanks for the job order exploration, Doug S.; we need to discuss price for the shading service over your garage. Note that a 5000 sq. ft. shadow over your garage need not use a base wing of 5000 sq. ft, but may use the part of a kite system called tailing or draping or curtaining or flagging or membraning; Some base wings might play lifter roles for other non-lift-focused shading parts. When I come up with a price for your site and garage, I'll forward the proposal; it may be a significant while before you might see my pricing.  Converting wind energy to produce shade is an ancient art that is open to advanced schemes.  Honorable AWE sector, even while respecting that you have a yet hidden definition for AWE which we await; consider posting that issue in the topic thread "What is AWE?"      

     A set of smallish wings in a kite system may make shadows greater than their areas via several arrangements and settings.  Drape from a set of smallish kytoons kite system near sunrise may cast a shading shadow that is tens of miles long. 

     A set of smallish kytoon wings in a kite system may hold a low-density low-mass/square horizontal shader when the wind is near zero while the shader main piece is not directed to play significant role in lift.  

     Consider rip-stop nets of sparse load carriers while the fill between load-carrying lines is state-of-art low-mass-per-square shading material. 

    Consider drape. Also, consider perimeter-lifted roofing shaders. Consider flagging wispy shaders from smallish lifters. 

    Consider the shading that may serve from kite-system lifted materials that are released. In this realm consider powders, flakes, gliders, balloons, etc. The released items go into the atmosphere and provide shade and perhaps other duties. The wind energy converted to provide the lift for the items and perhaps the operation of the releasing mechanisms and maybe balloon-filling pump or billow-hold-release operator, etc. might be part of this specialty shading realm. 

Best, 
   ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14105 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"Stupidest Forum Post Ever"  *** At least when I post something stupid, it is intentional... :)  Thanks for stating the obvious.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14106 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
"Consider the shading that may serve from kite-system lifted materials that are released. In this realm consider powders" great Joe, release powders over my garage for shade.  Nice AWE work.  Are you sure you don't wanna run for president?  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14107 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: launching control for large kite systems
I think a lightweight spar backbone may still serve an anti twist fold in collapse function
But scaling is always the issue until we go seaborne upside down

Can't stop thinking how easy this is upside down in ocean current... bad impure thoughts.
for anchor field read net of buoys. (not that they'd be needed)
for lift read weight.
 

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14108 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
You definitely are not teaching the world "exactly how to do AWE" ***I showed one way, and explained that there are many more.  Not my fault the world is so lame.

"by clinically obsessing* on bow-ties and dandruff," - If ANYONE is obsessing, it is YOU.  To me it is a joke.  To you it is an annoyingly accurate self-portrait.

"but
 only claim to know how, without offering any technical evidence." - *** I guess we pretend you haven't seen the real thing as well as the videos or read Popular Science, right?

"If you really knew how, why did you instead only patent a VAWT that cannot possibly scale to even the initial (FAA-approved) 2000ft for testing?"  *** If you are really aware of my patents, why would you say that?  Oh, I forgot the unwritten rule: Everything you post must be wrong - sorry about that... :)

"ask a professional profiler if you doubt this diagnosis. Here's a link-" 
***there you go again with your profiling threats - the inmate trying to run the asylum!  You were profiled on day-1: incurable perpetual angry would-be, wannabe wind-energy inventor newbie nutcase.  A well-understood class of nutcase that can never understand that they ARE a nutcase - part of the syndrome. 

And of course you try and turn it around by claiming everyone ELSE is the crazy one.  Nice try again Dave S.  I guess the new question is how some angry, argumentative newbies can remain newbies forever.  Don't you think enough years have gone by to not still be a newbie?  I mean, most people can get over it in a week or so.   A newbie with his heels dug in.   I guess, in some cases, there is simply no cure!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14109 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"Stating the obvious" is standard best-practice for correcting gross error. Its also rather obvious that (your) intentional stupidity is more stupid than (our) unintentional ignorance in seeking the light.


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:22 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14110 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine
"I'd say the worst argumentative newbie-idiot ever to strike wind energy was the promoter of HelixWind..." *** I meant besides Dave S. who takes the cake.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14111 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"(your) intentional stupidity is more stupid than (our) unintentional ignorance in seeking the light." ***Thanks.  At least you admit it.  The question is "Why?"  :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14112 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade for fighting desertification.
Doug you should move to Europe

I've actually always wondered why we don't routinely provide a "roof over the roof" of buildings, just to provide shade while preserving airflow - seems like it could reduce air conditioning loads by a lot.

We have building standards a plenty and this is definitely one.
You have to have a good big air gap between your ceiling insulation and the roof.
Simple perforated plastic capping stops crap coming in.

My aim in AWE is to make sure my accounts are not shady by tomorrow afternoon so as I can happily move back to drawing and prototyping.

If I keep my aim right. I'll reach my goals.
If I post what my goals are, then this becomes a goal post.
And I've scored already yay.
Job done. relax

if only

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14113 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Perch-Fields
Hydraulic or otherwise mast and grabber raising kite perches can give even more function...

Has anyone yet used a digger (even a mini one) to launch their AWES or kite?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14114 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade grading and scheduling
So the 250w is running a pump... How long would it take a 250w hydraulic pump motor to raise and lower a Mothra?
It's going to cut down some cooling time ...
Sounds quite attractive

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14115 From: Rod Read Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
DS and DS
Get some Dark Shade quick
I reckon the Direct Sun is affecting yer heids

Whilst at it ... get one of these nifty devices too...
It's AWE apparel.
Wear it in the wind to charge your phone.
Then if it gets too hot use your phone to turn it into a fan...
No more crap arguments !!
ta da

TIE015
Yes it is AWE apparel if you tie it on properly.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14116 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
DougS, 
        Consider the AWES releasing smoke for shading for some niche purposes. 
The continued exploration notes were meant for non--specific applications, not just your garage. 

But for your garage, I am considering a kite system that has a raised ring anchor, a tethered doming membrane and a center-of-membrane kytoon lifter. I am looking into ring formats both rigid and roped rings. Polygonal ring will suffice. Two layers of mesh might give adjustable grade of shading. Timer robot might control the grading schedule. 

Lift, 
   ~ JoeF

Further shade note: 
    Thermal triggering ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14117 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Profethor Crackpot'th shade turbine
Doug,

Your deep emotional problems are not a worthy AWES topic. We are all AWE newbies; Only you dump on everyone. Correcting your gross errors (like your overlooking F=ma) is not professional argument as such. Real AWE engineering debate is based on complex data-driven science, not grade-school-level ProfC rants aimed at anyone in sight.

I consistently propose fair testing of your AWE ideas, given your years of extreme ongoing self-promotion and ST marketing hype. That's not the crackpot hat. You propose testing is just a worn-out cliche. That suggests both crackpot and con-man profiles at play.

AWE arguments will be settled by ongoing testing and market creation; thank goodness,

daveS




On Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:47 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14118 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Perch-Fields
There is not much advantage to remaking the simple perch into a kinematic robot before exhausting basic low-complexity KIS methods. Sure, an giant Ray Bethel humanoid robot is the highest possible (kitegod) model, but it would have "feet-of-clay", as a premature down-select. Hydraulic towers don't sound cheap or essential. In industrial automation, simple x-y positioners are still far more successful than fancy high-DOF arms, despite 60 years of R&D.

Its magic to make things simpler and better. The simple perch is a guyed mast with a winch-base, 360 fairlead, and not even a cradle. What need for telescoping, kite handling arms, etc.? The tri-tether combo gives the same and far more capabilities. The worst is to get caught in KetGen's trap of the clumsy stem holding the kite hoping for the wind to descend for launch. Better to step- or circle- tow right up, and forget the tottering stem.




On Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:03 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14119 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Possible salvage: Figure-8 path for working cross-wind AWES: bowtie figure.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14120 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Doug,

Your Popular Science coverage does not convince anyone who counts. There is not a single known supporter in the engineering world for your ideas. Forget worrying about my technical critique of your AWE thinking. Just try and find another human who counts as an engineer to agree with you.

FYI, I don't have the ProfC characteristics that unfairly attacked AE pros think you aimed at them. I am the "clown with a bike horn", if you want to count random bulls-eyes. Thinking I still lived with my parents (even though I moved out at age 13) is perhaps your most clueless guess. Focus on proving your technology, not on bow-ties.

Note also that your intended humor comes off more like twisted resentment against the whole world; funny to you in a purely sour way, but no one else,

daveS






On Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:25 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14121 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Doug wrote: ""The question is "Why? (intentional stupidity is more stupid than unintentional ignorance in seeking the light)"


Because unintentional ignorance is correctable by a quest-for-knowledge, but intentional stupidity is a self-inflicted dead end. You did not originally intend to be a clueless AE dummy, but must remain so as long as you do not seek the knowledge. Once again, you ask the obvious explained with nothing posititive to offer.

This topic is all you.




On Thursday, August 28, 2014 3:29 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14122 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry
How big a problem are scams in the global wind industry? Add up all the biggest fantasy turbine scandals in conventional wind industry to maybe reach a half-billion dollars in stolen and wasted capital. On the other hand, the global wind industry is worth over a third-of-a-trillion-dollars as a whole.* This means the problem of wind scams is around 0.15% of overall economic activity. That's an almost insignificant effect. Bad ideas mostly go unsold.

Similarly, the problem of AWE scams is quite marginal, and does not concern serious developers or their investors. AWE scams do exist in the form of grandiose claims without underlying technical merit, but hardly anyone is ever fooled. Most AWE investment goes into real R&D, into the race for know-how (aka quest-for-knowledge). The key to success is to focus on critical engineering solutions, without undue distraction by exaggerated minor concerns (like VAWT promoters).


* From Navigant Research annual BTM World Market Update- "Cumulative installed capacity reached 321,559 MW by the end of 2013" (assume roughly ~$1 capital value per installed Watt).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14123 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade for fighting desertification.
Thanks for inviting me to Europe - wait, is the UK part of Europe or am I just thinking of the E.U? or is it just "The Euro"?  Or is Lewis Island part of the UK or are you going independent like the Scots?  Or ARE you technically a Scot? (Sorry I forgot) 
Well here in the U.S. we routinely have several inches of attic insulation on top of the drywall of the ceiling below, at least.  There's sometimes an insulated roof.  Sometimes foam panels are used too.  The attic above is several feet high at the center, with mandatory vents at each end or at many points, and, in one house i've been working on lately, vent fans from Ventamatic that turn on automatically when they reach a certain adjustable temperature.
Doing all that probably covers it pretty well, but still, the tiles above get hot, then the attic gets hot, and the house below must run the AC more.  So it seems that, yes we already HAVE multiple layers in the house - Whaddaya think we're in the stone age here? :) -, but since that still is not enough, I wish there was a way to shade the whole house, without hiring Joe to fly a kite over it all day.  Not that I would mind Joe flying a kite over my house, just that I couldn't afford it after a while.  Then again, we only have a few hot months...
I can think of one common solution, especially for one-story houses: TREES.  They grow up and provide shade.  I know, I know, I thought if it myself.  I guess if shade is energy, then a tree is biomass or biodiesel, or something - Joe, help me out here, there has got to be a good joke about redefining some energy category so that a tree in your yard suddenly qualifies as a new clean energy breakthrough.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14124 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

CN1280937 (A) ― 2001-01-24

Patent CN1280937A - Controllable multifunctional suspended body with skeleton, air bag and film

 


Controllable multifunctional suspended body with skeleton, air bag and film

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14125 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"FYI, I don't have the ProfC characteristic" *** Well still, Happy National Bowtie Day 2 U!  :)
Sadly, (shedding a little tear) you're right.  (snif) It's rare to see a complete Professor Crackpot, with ALL the characteristics.  The beard, fine, but your hair needs to be longer and curlier, flying in various directions, maybe with some gray.  I don;t remember the dandruff glasses either.  And you'd have to work on developing a lithp.  But I got the bicycle-horn clown right?  See?  Almost nobody has ALL the profC aspects together.  Still though, you DO see a LOT of people who are kind of "in the ballpark" if not "in the pocket".  Perhapth There'th a little Profethor Crackpot in all of us - just some more than others.  I will call you professor C if you seem to be acting like a profC.  I WISH you were a better Prof C.  Another one is that scientist who went up in front of congress about "global warming".  I think it had only been getting colder for about 10 years at that time... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14126 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Doug,

No amount of your non-technical chat finally counts here. Even if ProfC has no belly-button, he will only extra-disqualify you from participating in AWE going forward, if you do not add technical value.

You are only known for two rather unworkable concepts, the laddermill and ST. You clearly have not shared any key art, and even claim to be keeping key art secret. You truly do seem not to be learning anything, while everyone else does.

Five years on the Forum, and that's it, you got nothing but ProfC going.

Sorry dude,

daveS



On Thursday, August 28, 2014 5:15 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14127 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE
We are seeing a design principle emerge in AWES R&D, of lightweight polymer aloft, with heavy steel machinery on the surface, as driven by cost-performance trades. This is just one of many horizontal "layering" details to theoretic AWES, and the multi-layer integrated circuit is an inspirational similarity-case.

The AWES interface between steel and polymer is where primary kite killers are placed, with only the polymer quick-released ("cutaway"). In practice, one has a steel chain or cable to a steel soil anchor underground and only a small bit of steel poking above is lifted up by the kite, such that there is no snap-back or drop issue (design surface cableways of wire-rope to existing safety standards.).

For experimental purposes, a mountaineer's "eight" serves as a metal-polymer interface for us to tie our quick-release knots. We really are figuring out all the needed details, one-by-one, for a new upper-wind technology, in due time.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14128 From: dave santos Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Cody Kite Stage Method for Parallel Kite-Lattices
Sam Cody over a century ago worked out a system of staged kites (akin to rocket stages) programmed by sliding-rings on ascending-descending kites and stopper-beads along the line.

This class of low-complexity TRL9 methods have promise for parallel operations cross-linked in lattices. In principle kite stage layers are workable from a field of surface anchors and perches, possibly even over populations. The stages (from pilot to WECS rows) would sequentially rise as layers from the field of perches, and return in reverse order, with rising and falling wind conditions.

CC 4.x BY SA NC
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14129 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry
"How big a problem are scams in the global wind industry?" *** They believe in their nonsense just like you, except you are way worse. Kincaid was off by about 2 orders of magnitude, whereas your nonsense is off by more like 4 orders of magnitude.  They don't intend to be "scams", they are just the stupid leading the gullible off a cliff like lemmings. We've seen so many and they are all basically the same. 

They act just like you, except they have one concept, that actually rotates, and that rotation is enough for them to think they have the next thing in wind energy.  Your stuff, on the other hand, makes "the scammers'" stuff look like the breakthroughs the promoters say it is, since your stuff, by comparison, looks completely lame even to know-nothings, obviously produces no power whatsoever, and never involves even such 3000-year-old basics as a balanced rotation. 

So, what powers "the scammers" is people who are so stupid they can only imagine completely lame crap like you come up with, making "the scammers" with graceful, curved, convincing-to-newbies, 100% solidity, rotating surfaces, look like geniuses in comparison to those promoting even worse concepts such as the ones you promote. 

And of course you all respond to informed criticism with personality attacks, actually believing in some way that your failure to ever make any power is actually a mental problem in the mind of the learned commentator.  That's why I say, you are like the worst insane newbie, to the umpteenth power, on steroids.  You make the worst "scammer" look like an angel complete with wings and a halo, with a PhD in aerodynamics, an M.E., and an E.E.

  You have to realize, the average person out there, including investors, have no background in wind energy and will believe any story, especially if it confirms their ignorance, such as high-solidity, push-based turbines being easy-to-understand - people like to feel that "they understand" therefore they will accept as truth what is made "easy to understand" since it is a resting place for their overtaxed brains to stop and take a breath. 

But none of the "scammers ever even approached the level of daily ignorance you and Joe spew on a regular basis.   For example, I never heard them claim their wind turbine's shadow was a form of "wind energy", or that a machine that was not moving was nonetheless functioning as "a turbine" by its mere presence, the way Joe does.  You guys really don't understand that you are completely insane. 

It is easy to see that every investor in every crackpot uninformed attempt at AWE, as we see taking place in Europe, will lose their money too.  These people are badly misinformed.  It is easy to tell by the mere demeanor, let alone actual comments, of the promoters.  Once you've seen it over 100 times, you guys really all look exactly the same.  Well, like i said, except you are worse.  

But I'm still here, offering the truth anytime anyone wants to listen.  In my mind, you are the ultimate recalcitrant newbie experiment, to see how long someone is willing to go on making such an endless fool of themself, and so far you have beat any of "the scammers" by at least ten (10) times in duration, and probably ten times more in level of ignorance, and that's just so far!.  Congratulations.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14130 From: dougselsam Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE
"seeing a design principle emerge in AWES R&D, of lightweight polymer aloft, with heavy steel machinery on the surface," *** SuperTurbine(R)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14131 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry
You didn't critique anything wrong with any Dave S method there...
And can't call him a con man as everything is open to scrutiny.

Europe left the stone age. The uni crews are developing amazing maths and control models for their kit. It's not best directed research in our shared opinion... But they can power waffle  machines... What's not to like.?

But what do I know ? I haven't written anything remotely mathematic yet. And wouldn't know a plan from a schematic. (actually what is the differ...)  Living in the nearly liberated state of Scotland and being a yes voter people think I'm nuts as there's "no plan for the economy..." yeah I know

I bet the same chat was heard when the united kindom of american states was dissolved.
Bet you really wish you'd kept the pound now hey!!! Stone age yankee doodle fools!

As for my plans for AWE. Well I plan to apply AWE to making the anthropocene compatible with legacy humans.

more to follow in a more relevant post

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14132 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: cooperative relevance pie
Where we propose open group projects and value based accounting, there are some fundamentals of enterprise development to be considered as a group.

We need to confirm this + as a group sooner rather than later.

Who proposes a work scheme?
sales, marketing, tech development, manufacturing facility, all need a say... customer swayed input may play too... Developers should be aware of what the most likely saleable items are, marketing data input value can be added to scheme value pie.

What can a work scheme consist of?
Exacting model standards or a product range? specific sales vehicles or free marketing?
How directly does R&D work have to relate to a money making project?

Cooperative scheme approval.
Is this device considered within our IP? Do we support the particular product with branding, guarantee, authentication, traceability? Do we pursue IP offences?  How long do we support and stock old designs replacements?

On what terms does a scheme pay dividends to contributors?
Do we accept to modify standard cooperative enterprise hub models to fit distributed value based accounting?

Where is the extent of our IP and contribution?
For the pie of each scheme what % is applicable to each work?
How many schemes does each work pertain to?
Given a dividend for each scheme what is the value of a work?

Which schemes are we working on?
Live data so as not to replicate work would help but work standards have to be open to be checked.

Which schemes are we promoting?
Once improvement is identified how quickly can manufacture be turned around?
Can we share designs universally over enterprise to be just in time?

Which schemes are we selling?
Can we sell manufacture data and rights to non cooperatives? Can we continue selling (and worse, making) superseded kit until stock is empty?

What has been contributed to this scheme?

What expectation and commitment does each arm of an enterprise have to the other?

Is this the right place to develop these questions?
I've tried in the past on kitepowercoop.org... but it was scattered... The new WOW ERP seems likely..


AOCB?


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14133 From: dougselsam Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry
"You didn't critique anything wrong with any Dave S method there..." 
*** Dave S. has not shown anything RIGHT with "his methods"...
"And can't call him a con man as everything is open to scrutiny."
*** Experienced wind people can easily flag wind cons.  They are all the same.  Dave S. is not to the level of a con, since he is not taking millions in investment, but his (lack of) technology is far below that of what he openly calls "scams".
"Europe left the stone age. The uni crews are developing amazing maths and control models for their kit."
***Nope, they are actually back IN the stone age WRT their attempts at airborne wind technology.  They are back in time to before 3000 BC when the first workable wind turbines emerged.  Resorting to complex mathematical analysis of bad ideas cannot help.  It actually only adds to the confusion - they are still bad ideas at their core: GIGO.
"they can power waffle  machines... What's not to like.?"
*** That's probably about the best you can expect.  :)
"But what do I know ?"
*** As much as you want to know, or as much as you DON'T want to know
"Bet you really wish you'd kept the pound now hey!!! Stone age yankee doodle fools!"
*** UK real estate is about to crash.  Invest in the dollar for now.  Meanwhile, the future has been unfolding here in America for a couple centuries, taking the rest of the world OUT of the stone age.   :)
:)
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14134 From: dougselsam Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: cooperative relevance pie
Amazing array of "cart-ahead-of-the-horse" questions.  In wind energy, you need a single reliable concept that delivers a useful amount of energy at a reasonable cost.  You don't need endless committees and multiple confused attempts at technology by clueless people who have no grasp of what they are doing.  Like in archery, you need to aim and hit the target, not be blindfolded, randomly shooting in various directions.  Pretending the blindfolded shooter is employing some organized method is just delusional.  That blindfolded shooter can never approach the performance of one who can see and aim.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14135 From: Rod Read Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: cooperative relevance pie

You need much more than just a concept thanks Doug.
And more than just a cheap financial proposition, we're offering reduced cost of weight and material.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14136 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Steel-Polymer Interface in AWE
Sorry Doug, but the SuperTurbine driveshaft does not qualify as "lightweight". Even the 1000ft tall ST version you have proposed, which only reaches halfway to the best wind, would weigh an estimated* 10,000 tons or so.  Its not even airborne and would require massive lift to tilt up. Making the upper rotors bigger, to match rpm with lower rotors, also falls into the scaling-law trap.

You are hyping a Fantasy Turbine, under Gipe's definition, without adding value to the Forum topic. No one buys it.


* Weigh a scale prototype and multiply by the cube of the dimensional scaling-factor.


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:05 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14137 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Effect of Wind Con-Men on Wind Industry
No engineer will agree with Doug that advocating sincere AWE brainstorming and serious testing is the worst scam ever in wind energy. Testing best reveals the great ideas for major societal investment, and rightly curbs the con-men.


On Friday, August 29, 2014 9:16 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14138 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Historic RATs on untethered aircraft

Our forum has many posts on some aspect of ram-air turbines (RATs or just RAT) on untethered aircraft. Perhaps a single topic thread could collect the spread notes and furthering notes. The relative wind mined by RATS with power-take-offs(PTOs) frequently form electricity for consumption by various aircraft systems sometimes including the charging of batteries.   Lessons in historical RAT tech may inform tethered aircraft RAT tech. And untethered IFO intends advancing RAT tech.     Notice that a parked tethered blimp before free flight could have RATs running to charge onboard batters or other loads; such could be no less than a kytoon parked at high altitude; follow Altaeros for an example of a kytooned RAT that sends electricity to the ground, thus a tethered flygen.    So, any interested person is invited to post historic RAT notes in this thread. 


Start: 

Means for creating emergency power for airplane radio generator systems
https://www.google.com/patents/US1495036     by Palmer, circa 1921. 

His recitation of objectives of his AWES form a shopping list of good works. 


~ JoeF