Google could diversify investments including Tu Delft, KiteGen, Ampyx, Windlift, SkyMill Energy...to name organizations and companies involved in groundgen AWES.


PierreB

"so many AWE scientists, affiliated with the world's top universities and aerospace players"  *** So why no progress?  Too stupid? "scientists"?  Are you sure?  Maybe AWE is showing the limitations of merely having a science degree or a steady job with a title of "scientist".  Maybe we've reached our limits.  Maybe we're just too dumb.  Remember "The Wizard of Oz" - one theme was that even if someone pins a fancy title on your chest, you are, in reality, the still the same person.  No title can force someone to come up with working solutions.  To me, AWE is today's real-life IQ test, and nobody is earning a passing grade.  Hey, at some point, you gotta laugh!  :)  ***

Doug,

You are the only AWE insider to claim "no progress", and it does apply to you. In fact, AWE progress in recent years is fantastic, as Miles Loyd himself asserts in his preface to the Springer AWE book, and active developers know firsthand.

Your insistence that such facts are "all lies" is your psychological defense of your own AWE prospects, where even engineering-physics scaling-laws are lies to you,

daveS

Joe: I'm not the first to note that by adjusting definitions, one can make any statement true.  I've pointed out, for example, that automobile engines are really a form of drag-based wind turbine, that provide internal weather (high pressure systems).  So, by that definition, the world is already powered by wind energy and everyone can just go back to sleep. 

In the real world though, people are not willing to go along with the "I can redefine everything faster than you can argue against it" game.  That is for the Joe F's and Dave S.'s of the world, with access to a computer, and "too much time on their hands".  Real people don't take it seriously - it is just playing word games.

Good luck convincing the world that paragliders "are a form of" airborne wind energy.  You guys have already tried to stretch AWE to including ALL jetliner flights, so I guess it must include all sailplanes, any plane landing into the wind, taking off into the wind, flyin with the wind. etc. etc. etc.  Good then, your job is finished, AWE is everywhere.  I guess that means Dave S. and John O would think they are in charge of all parasails now, too.  And all of aviation.  Gosh they have a lot of responsibility.  How soon before they are in charge of the entire world? 

Sure Joe, EVERYTHING is airborne wind energy.  What an easy way to get off the hook for the fact that you just can't DO AWE, and don't even try, but... by simply redefining the words "airborne wind energy", you've taken AWE from nowhere, to everywhere, in just a few years!  You are really a genius.  Thanks for your service to mankind!  :) 

Maybe Websters dictionary has an opening, and you could get a job there.  Tell them your plan to replace all words with just one word.  Tell them you've been noticing that just one word can describe everything in the universe.  Maybe they'll see the light and hire you to eliminate all words except one.  Who needs different words for different things, when just one word will do for everything! ***

"DaveS shows momentum to continue advances AWES and AWE matters"  *** Sure he does, Joe, sure he does... Whatever makes you guys feel good.  I have to say though, doing nothing is NOT the same as doing something.  Talk does not equal action.  Some people know this. ***

Dave S. I once suffered from similar delusions, that the world of wind energy would change by my mere words.  I had the rude awakening that cost of energy is the dominant factor.  That is based on the initial cost, and ongoing O & M costs, weighed against performance, period.  Low cost and reliability are key. 
Wind energy veterans have seen thousands of ideas seen as clever by their promoters.  Doesn't matter.  Performance is all that matters.  Zero performance = zero worth.  Most "progress" AWE has seen so far is finding out what NOT to do, showing what DOESN'T work.  Most that could have been learned just by asking me.  Seriously.  But, hey, if nobody wants to listen, Oh well... Have fun!  :) 

Dave S. I think you should get a pin that says "I am a genius... because I say so" and wear it.  If anyone questions it, just repeat it.  Who can argue with a Dave S., really?  Or who would want to, and what purpose would it serve?

Good luck and the world will await your generation of a single Watt, apparently forever, since, according to Joe, such mundane accomplishments as generating electricity are now not even relevant.  AWE is, instead, a mere "state of mind"!  Wheeeee!

"Checkmate?" *** you've been self-checkmated by your own mental limitations...   I wouldn't worry about everybody else :)

"I build and test almost every day" *** just nothing that works, eh?

So when people speak of "wind energy", according to the Joe Faust/Dave Santos school of thought, they must actually mean:
1) All internal combustion engines
2) passive cooling by any breeze
3) Airplanes flying with prevailing winds
4) walking WITH the wind
5) cars driving WITH the wind
6) cars driving crosswind
7) riding horses WITH the wind
8) all recreational sailboats
9) all sailplanes and hang-gliders
10) Anyone flying a kite
All examples of "wind energy".  Need I go on?

And when we have an article saying how much power was generated "by wind energy" in the State of California for a given year, it includes all those activities, right?  I guess at that point, the contribution from actual wind turbines could safely be ignored, right?  Because words mean what Joe and Dave say they mean, right?  Forget the other 99.999% of the population.  Their opinions don't matter.

I'd say maybe you guys should take off the blindfolds and realize you exist in a world full of people who don't necessarily share your compulsion to redefine everything out of existence.  Most people will not agree with your self-serving re-definitions that exist ONLY to rationalize your endless lies. (amazing)

There is nobody making wind-generated electricity by airborne means today.  Nobody.  Not NASA.  Not Lockheed.  Not Boeing.  Not Christina Archer.  Not Wayne German.  Not the Italians.  Not the Dutch.  Not the Nigerians.  Not Google,  and certainly not Dave S. or Joe F.  At this moment, or any given moment, the electron count is most likely.... zero.  That is a simple fact.  You guys purport to have it all figured out, somehow being mysteriously "in charge" of it all, etc., but in reality, you all make yourselves irrelevant to AWE.  At this point, I'd have to say, you guys are all talk, peppered with a strong dose of delusion.  Anyone can talk.  It means nothing.

Some progress was achieved: strong and light tethers, knowledge of meteo, instruments for automation...

I see two fields being able to be decisive: UV resistant fibers (for soft wings), and self-production of hydrogen (an aerostatic balloon can be required, at least to increase the angle of tether allowing far less space used).

 

PierreB

"Any checkmate credit goes to the FARs, not me." *** as long as you have an excuse for no progress, right? ***

"Every year Doug has less and less basis to uselessly complain that there are no AWES working regularly in the world" ***Who's complaining?  I'm just noting.  Mere commentary.  You can do the complaining.  I just think it's funny that the people calling themselves the smartest people in the world can't think their way out of a paper bag.  AWE is a great test of who can make things happen versus who just has a big mouth.  Funny funny funny how "all the king's horses and all the king's men" can't seem to think beyond "kite-reeling".
1) We all know there is more wind at higher heights;
2) So many people have indicated a wish to harness that as a next step in wind energy;
3) So many people and organizations have been posturing for years now, claiming expertise;
4) Millions of dollars have been thrown at it;
5) The people attempting it declare victory ahead of the fact, with no basis;
6) But the methods pursued, and claims made, seem childlike;
7) The results are not impressive
What can you do but laugh?  This is FUNNY!  Well, unless you are a warmist.  Then you THINK the end of the world is here, because you think (hope) temps will increase in a  runaway fashion.  Except for one thing: When temps do NOT rise in a runaway fashion, rather than being relieved, the warmists get ANGRY.  Why are they angry when they WERE (supposedly) worried about temps getting too warm, then it DOESN'T get too warm, but instead cools a bit?  Why?  Because they aren't really worried about temps at all, they are worried about BEING RIGHT, and when temps cool, it makes them NOT RIGHT, so they hate it.  They SAY they hate warming, but they really LOVE warming and HATE COOLING becuase cooling makes them wrong.  Idiots, idiots, idiots.  The people SAYING they are against "global warming" actually DEMAND global warming.  When it doesn't happen, they want it to happen so bad they make up the data.  Anything for more warming.  For them, it HAS to get warmer, or they have no purpose, and their indispensable "opinions" are revealed as merely repeating the hype of others.   Truth is stranger than fiction.  If you tried to make all this stuff up as a storyline, it would not be considered believeable.

Doug,
1. We await your personal definition of AWE.
2. Perhaps be helped by participating in the thread titled "Targets of
AWE" where an inclusivity is intended; if you have a tunnel vision for
a certain sector of AWE, then please consider expressing such by way
of the tool of "target" discerning. It feels like you might have a
certain target that you might express; and maybe you want all the AWE
world to focus just on one of AWE's targets... yours; please express
it; thanks.
3. You seem to have created a bunch of paper tigers about the definition thing.
4. There is high focus for several AWE targets. It seems like you are
interested in at least one of the AWE targets. Please develop such
interest and hopefully share such; please consider respecting that
others may be working on some AWE targets that might not intrest you;
consider refraining from calling so many people derogatory names,
etc., when they are simply working on AWE targets different from your
interest apparently.

Best,
JoeF

Doug, your statement about my position is not correct. You published
in this thread: "according to Joe, such mundane accomplishments as
generating electricity are now not even relevant." That is false.
Rather, generating electricity is one of the significant targets of
AWE; accomplishments in that target flow are being made by many teams;
and such accomplishments are deemed relevant; I have a continual
investment in noting such accomplishments; and I have trusted that you
have been around observing such care. So, why are you putting up
false positions?
Lift,
JoeF

On 7/28/14, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

On 2014-07-28 22:03, dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Nobody can say that I am standing on Doug's side. We are in disagreement
regarding several topics, where Doug's incompetence is readily
apparent. (See our debates in this forum.)

Furthermore I highly appreciate JohnO's wisdom that guides the disputes
in this forum in a rational direction, like in this case.

DaveS and JoeF's contribution from a technical point of view is always
worth listening to.

That is, I agree with JohnO's and Dave's last letters. Still, in this
case there is a real opportunity to easily check Doug's statements with
some obvious facts. Let's not miss this opportunity.

Therefore, if anybody knows about other facts that refute Doug's above
statement, please let us know.

Gabor Dobos

Joe: I may be reacting to the Dave S. tactic of being completely unreasonable with no regard for a fair debate, or even a sensible debate.  It is only Dave S. problems acknowledging reality that even began even the TONE of a "debate" here.  I'm not the first to notice.  What's to debate, if not for you guys constantly making false statements, such as "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind energy." which is a ridiculous position.  Can you not see the "grasping at straws" nature of this?  Can you not see that you say it only to "seem" to remain "correct" when constantly stating, on the one hand that 100 teams failing is success, and, on the other hand, that this 100-year-old attempted art of AWE is "a new baby"? 

In my opinion, you're falling more and more into this "unreasonable" camp lately.  It seems that improving on existing wind energy, which generates electricity, becomes a forgotten notion, once you and Dave S. get on a roll.  The entire process of electrifyiing the world seems to have passed you by, while you try and exchange what COULD BE progress, for a "steam-punk fantasy", where the world will forget electricity, and instead start powering industry directly by drag-based wind machines that require a human attendant, piloting the wind energy system "for the honor".  Maybe we can use leather belts and long driveshafts on the ceiling like in the 1800's eh?  You guys are SO out-of-it, you literally can't even grasp the nature of the modern world, let alone be creating state-of-the-art aeronautical breakthroughs.

Rather than address the actual challenge, and act like we are in the 21st century, you merely backtrack to literal nothingness (no power being created) and declare, as though a dictator, that, since flying objects take some power to remain aloft, that any flying object IS airborne wind energy.  That is your foot-in-the-door to saying AWE even exists on a day-to-day basis.  Do you think nobody notices you long ago went "off-the-rails" with regard to truth and accuracy, having degenerated to merely redefining words in lieu of coming up with any workable system?  That nobody notices you build nothing and then rationalize your position of some sort of AWE leader, by constantly finding little things that COULD SOMEHOW be rationalized, by vastly stretching definitions, as AWE, such as flying a paper-airplane when a gust of wind hits?

Suddenly, according to you guys, tying some blue tarps together and letting them fly becomes "airborne wind energy".  According to you, now, anything that flies counts as "airborne wind energy".  Anything else you want to add to the list?  I just don't think there is any reason to keep redefining words to bolster what are really lies, trying to claim AWE is a robust and longstanding industry on the one hand, and a newborn baby on the other.  You guys have devolved into typical internet personalities that think sitting there all day playing with your computer and redefining words is making any progress, in any direction.  I'm just pointing this out becuase I see a lot of potential in you, and I see a few past accomplishments, but I don;t think this attempt by you two to hijack the intellectual high ground in AWE is working.  You guys are NOT occupying any high ground, but rather endlessly making erroneous statements that will be seen in a historical context to have been, not only in error, but completely over-the-top, far into fools' territory.

Thanks for your opinion John, and for the bible quotes that indicate I should not even waste the time to keep responding to Dave S.  I agree with them.  Another quote I like is "It's better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."  We can all improve, every day.
Meanwhile, I've been curious about something for quite a while now:  It's great to see anyone enthusiastic about Airborne Wind Energy, and I think it's fantastic to have people from all over the world giving their opinions, and sharing their insights.  What I've been trying to figure out is, what is your interest in AWE?  What opinions do you have, and what insights can you share?  Besides Dave S. and Joe naming you as "president", what is your actual involvement with AWE? I don't remember hearing of any AWE projects you're involved with, or working on.  I have not seen you render any technical opinions, any commentary on any AWE technology.  In fact, while I see Dave S. and Joe F. have you as "president protem" of an "industry trade association", I scratch my head at the notion of an "industry association" before there is "an industry", and why the "president" of such an association can go on for years in this "position", without ever discussing AWE.  Imagine the NHRA or the AAA forming in the 1800's, before anyone had a car running - can you say "cart ahead of the horse"?  Beyond that, as you've astutely pointed out, you have Dave S. stating in no uncertain terms that "expert kiteflyers" will rule the day in AWE, as though he has visited the future and has come back to tell us what he's seen. Meanwhile his head is actually stuck in the 1800's.
I'm not sure if anyone else is wondering, what is YOUR angle on AWE?  What's the connection here?  Where does your interest even come from?  How many years have you been interested in AWE?  Do you have a history that you could share?  What system do you think is most promising?  Why?  What research or effort are you involved with?  Is there anything being done in Nigeria, or in your area, that you could share with the rest of the class?  I'll give an example:  Dan'l contributed an idea on here, (spiralairfoil) and even though my response was "that's a typical old idea that gets regurgitated every so often", he at least brought SOMETHING to the table.  He at least contributed to the discussion.  The only thing I hear from you is perhaps a semi-annual, brief comment, on someone's style of internet posting, some mundane observation regarding one person's choice of words, for example.  You must have more to contribute than that.  What is it you actually DO in the field of AWE?  You must have something to share besides such mundane occasional comments on netiquette, right?  I'd love to hear more of your actual involvement and opinions on AWE.  I, personally, could do without the brief comments once a year, without knowing the slightest thing about you, and your role in AWE, besides Joe and Dave having labeled you as "president" of their fantasy-world.  So I'd look forward to your sharing of your thoughts on AWE, and your participation in the discussions on this list, and I'd love to know more about you and your interest and history with AWE, or any other relevant/related field, as well as your technical opinions on what methods seem most promising to you.  :)

Doug,
The creation of false quotes is not helpful; people are tempted
to correct your false quoting of them. Please consider finding the
exact quotation that you wish to make a statement about. Your post
just above had "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind
energy." as though that was some quote of someone. I find no one
making that quotation. I get the feel you created the false quote to
feed some argument. Maybe you created the false quote trying to
express what I said that the flying Jalbert parafoil is a form of
airborne wind energy; my statement did not go to the level of totality
of "constitute" ... but rather noted the raw important physics of the
scene. A kite system operating is converting the wind's energy in to
many sorts of energies; some clever people are using those conversions
to practical effects; and more is unfolding; such similar matter is
centuries old; some progress to new applicatons of the converted
energies is occurring; there is both old and new in the mix.
We still await your personal definition of AWE, so we may respect
you relative to your definition. That you might share such one day is
hopeful, but be prepared that the field of AWE might in practice be
larger than your defintion; we await to see yours before concluding or
discussing. You have not given the world a DougS starting point in
AWE relative to definition.
You are still invited to post targets of AWE in the topic thread
dedicted to "Targets of AWE". Your contributions in such topic
thread will be respected. If a target of AWE is missing in that topic
thread, please state it for All to see; thanks.
Kite energy systems convert the wind's energy to forms of energy,
not power. When the energy is used over time, then one observes that
power occurs.

It seems you stumble by staying in the broad-brush arena. Consider
that when you mention tarps used in a kite-energy system, you might
technically examine openly whether or not the kite-enrgy system using
tarps is or is not a kite-energy system; we will read your analysis
carefully. Consider examining if COTS tarps have or have not any play
in the development of kite-energy systems; such open careful examining
might serve the AWE flow more than repeating simplistic personal
attacks. How much energy per dollar invested in a tarp-using AWES can
be taken to remote work areas by using COTS tarps in kite-energy
systems? Such analysis is hard work; display of careful analysis and
experimental results are invited on such topic.
Doug, it seems you hold to certain thresholds of achievement;
anything short of the threshold seems to get your condemnation. Clear
stating of the thresholds would be interesting. But teams short of
anyone's stated threshold are only that: short of someone's threshold
or marker; I opt to give deep reverence for the gestation period where
earlier steps and marks are established while keeping the grand
visions described, whatever such are. You are invited to clearly
state your AWE thresholds of achievement; and you are free value
pre-thresholders as you might; for group's sake, though, you are asked
not to nag with the "idiot" text slams; perhaps just state your
opinion which might be in my paraphrase: "YOU

On 7/29/14, dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

[hit wrong key and sent above note without finishing. I continue hereon: ]

.. "You do not show proof of meeting my clearlly stated performance
threshold of achievement, therefore I hold you as a ______ ".
Repeat nagging is not necessary; we can read and search the record and
know your opinion of any certain project performance. Others might not
agree with your appraisal, and that is fine too; we all might benefit
from the analysis and respects of others on the matters.

JoeF

A collection of definitions of a "kite" has been growing for all.
And additional definitions are welcome.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/akiteis.html

The over-1000 current AWE professional actors known might have
something to say about that "sole" slant.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html

On 7/29/14, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

I propose to rename and redefine AWEIA as AWEAIA: Airborne Wind Energy Against Industry Association.  Against Makani and other companies in AWEC, against NTS, against KiteGen...

PierreB

AWEAIPAA: Airborne Wind Energy Against Industries Personal Attacks Association,

 

PierreB

Doug,
JohnO, for shown qualities, was originally voted by AWEIA founders
as "president protem" awaiting membership formalism and voting for the
next step. Perhaps one day you may wish to run for AWEIA president.
Our contemporary AWE industry is growing. The present level of growth
might not fit your thresholds for arrangements; feel free to help grow
positive aspects of the AWE industry. We await your definition of AWE
to add to others' definitions.
Thanks for any tech talk you have given and for that which you may give.
Lift,
JoeF

DaveS,

 

Your unfair and aggressive behavior, duly mentioned by JohnO (I do even not speak about some real leaders in AWE) , is the cause of what you call your eviction of AWEC2013, (you can also add NearZero etc.). At the same time you are the only responsible one for the eviction of JoeF or for JohnO for these events. You do not assume your responsibilities by doing mediocre personal attacks.

PierreB

Meterorlogical:
Pierre Benhaïem of France has recently mentioned that meteorlogical
applications may be one of the contemporary options for an AWE-target
set. Several centuries ago, such target category was highly present.
And today's opportunities are far beyond what they did in the 1800s
with AWES towards meteorlogical concerns. Perhaps Pierre will expand
his vision for this target branch.

Personal Charging:
And this year an old target was strongly mentioned again by DaveS:
personal-charging AWES. There is underway in kPower some steps toward
getting AWES personal charging systems ready for the commercial
market.

AWES Toys:
Important for world-mind-set evolution for eventual wide-understanding
of AWE might be the AWES target set of toy AWES. Light up the wing
set; drive a music player; provide electricity for a hand-held
flashlight; drive a display screen that reports about the electricity
being generated by the AWES toy. Much more. Put such
scientific-demostratin toys into the school-teachers' tool collection.

AWE Sports
Growing the world's relation with AWES could be accomplished in part
by the growth of sport competition in energy kite systems with various
sub targets. Already there are the AWE branches of recreational and
sport kiting, power-kiting transport sports, hang gliding,
paragliding; to such AWE branches could be specialized-task
fulfillment competitive sports. Among the specializd tasks could be
the generation of sound, light, or electricity. Use of electricity
generated by a competitior at a competition field could exciting,
depending on designers and officials. Safety first!

~ JoeF

Attachments :

We_the_People@WOW... we remember that in 2011 we received an offer to buy Ippolito's systems (the Kitegen®) with a multi-million € tag price. Time to get the machine, 1 year (they claimed they had an already fully booked production line).

Then, in 2012, Kite Gen Research became "the third group to express interest regarding the aluminum [sic!] smelter located in Sardinia run until today by Alcoa."
"(...) A relatively big Kitegen Stem wind farm at regime (200 Stems= 600 MW) could provide continuous power to the smelter at 20 €/MWh (...)"
Read more: <http://www.kitegen.com/en/2012/09/21/kitegen-and-alcoa-updates/
Now, for the SABIC venture. As far as we know, back in 2012 or early 2013, KGR (Ippolito's company) received co-financing from Italy's Piedmont Region, to develop rigid wings for its Kitegen®, with a need to match €700,000 in public funds with a €300,000 in equity and -- that's our view -- that's probably where SABIC kicked in.

The Kitegen website states: "The KiteGen® Group has been awarded a first contract to power the world’s largest Carbon dioxide (CO2) Capture & Utilization (CCU) plant for Jubail United Petrochemical Company (...) KiteGen will be responsible for the concept and basic engineering, front end engineering design (...) and future maintenance of the power facility to be completed on a fast-track schedule. Generators machines mass production are set to be achieved in 2015 and the pilot installations in 2016."
<http://kitegen.com/tag/sabic/
Hey, people: Hold your breath 'cause 2016 is just around the corner!

WOW sold its stake in KGR at a loss in 2013. Because we are incompetent, of course. Anyway, as much as we regret that a letter addressed "to a small kPower circle" is being published on an open forum, presumably without the consent of the author, we can't help it, we have to underline that the phrase referencing "(...) WOW, that stole millions $ to KiteGen (...)" is nothing but slander, pure and simple.

This abrupt patent claims from Mr. Ippolito are nothing new; it's a cycle that repeats itself (just like a yo-yo) every time they need more money.

Just another little piece of evidence that, among the many professional actors in AWE, Mr. Ippolito is really a sole.

--
G.

=================================================
Gaetano Dentamaro
President, CEO, WOW SpA - http://wow.pe/
<gaetano.dentamaro@wow.pe +39 340-2417.728
Skype: bittertooth
=================================================
That government is best which governs least.
Henry David Thoreau
=================================================

dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

The claim of: "thanks [sic, to] the unprecedented net energy ratio of
the fully owned exclusive concept outperforming, at least, tenfold any
other renewable energy technology."

??: "outperforming" ____? ...
??: "any other renewal energy technology" ____ ?
?? "tenfold" ____?
??: "exclusive concept" ____?

Support for such claims should be interest!
What is the concept that is supposed to be "exclusive" ?

~ JoeF



On 7/29/14, awes@bittertooth.org [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com