Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                   AWES1272to1321
Page 6 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1272 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1273 From: Doug Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Turbine blades / Betz coefficient

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1274 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Colin Jack ???

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1275 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1276 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Colin Jack ???

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1277 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1278 From: Dan Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1279 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: TU Delft Course

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1280 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1281 From: dave santos Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1282 From: Dave Lang Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Turbine blades / Betz coefficient

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1283 From: Geoffrey G Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1284 From: harry valentine Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1285 From: harry valentine Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1286 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1287 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1288 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1289 From: Doug Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1290 From: harry valentine Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1291 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: KULeuven Kite Power Group (KiteLab Group Review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1292 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1293 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1294 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1295 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1296 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Kite Control using Deterministic Chaos Function

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1297 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Handbook of Chaos Control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1298 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1299 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1300 From: Doug Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: 2009 HAWP Conference Video / Tarantula Bass / YouTube

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1301 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1302 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1303 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1304 From: Dan Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Good Stuff

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1305 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1306 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1307 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1308 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Flying CoAxial Multirotor Gyrocopter Experiment Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1309 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Flying CoAxial Multirotor Gyrocopter Experiment Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1310 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1311 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1312 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: HAWT's

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1313 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: HAWT's

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1314 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1315 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission / Space Elevator on "down"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1316 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1317 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1318 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1319 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: AeroInertia: Bola Masses & Pendulum Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1320 From: Dave Lang Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: AeroInertia: Bola Masses & Pendulum Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1321 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Electric Kite Vehicles




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1272 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Dave S,
 
The following § in my precedent message does not mean such a system is not efficient.There are a lot of parameters.For example such a system with looping path maybe allows passive control (it is not possible for orthokite configuration or very difficult).
 
A good appreciation of a system takes in count the specific use.
 
Pierre B
 
"With such a system (with "elastic return") the transmission of power (and with variable tangential force and result losses) is only for the half of swept area (morever the middle of a looping path is not a swept area,being an occupied space).Potential power of kite and area swept are not wholly used."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1273 From: Doug Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Turbine blades / Betz coefficient
Nice to see some fundamentals being discussed such as the Betz limit.
And of course we have the best method that "science" can come up with to "beat" Betz, a concentrating upwind duct and/or downwind expanding "diffuser"...
By this long-known method, one can force more air through a small rotor, and at some point theoretically one can force enough air through the rotor to exceed the Betz coefficient of an unducted rotor of the same size in the same flow.
Problems:
The problems with this approach are:
a) No matter how much material one may add to make a shroud or duct of whatever size, the power gain is limited. You can make the duct as big as you want but at some point it does no more good.
b) The solid duct will by definition never increase performace more than simply extending the blades out to the same diameter, which uses a tiny fraction of the material that the duct would use.
c) The duct covers more absolute (solid) area than elongated blade tips, all this area must nonetheless be engineered to withstand 120 mph extreme wind events, therefore the duct uses far more material than elongating the blades would, for less energy gain.
d) The industry and all ratings will consider the turbine to be the diameter of the duct anyway, so even winning a word game of saying you have more power for a given diameter is not possible using this approach.
Despite many decades of trying, nobody has yet successfully introduced a ducted turbine to the market, and some who have tried have quickly gone bankrupt.
That was what "science" was able to give you.
That was as far as the "scientists" at the "national labs" are able to take you: an approach that is a proven loser, and that's the best they can do.

Now here is what real SCIENCE (peasant wisdom) can give you:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-500-2007-111/CEC-500-2007-111.PDF

The Superturbine(R) approach sweeps more area using LESS material.
It also increases RPM per unit swept area.
Using the Superturbine(R) approach, there is almost no upper limit to how much power you can extract from a turbine of a given diameter. The only limiting factors are the torque-carrying capabilities of your driveshaft, the amount of open space available, and whether the weather patterns are large enough to provide wind to an entire driveshaft of rotors simultaneously.

Realistically I think we can worry about that last one after we're making driveshafts several miles long, at which point we should already be producing electricity at a lower cost that traditional pedestal-fan model hunter-gathering level "windfarms" that place a turbine here, a turbine there, the way Indians grew corn, rather than solid neat rows of Superturbines(R), which would constitute true windFARMing. Think farms - think row after row.

I could really use all the help I can get to get this rolling.
You can see the bigger "research labs" and "scientists" would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into something like this, as they are very superstitious, tradition-bound, afraid to ever look silly for even a moment or make any mistake, which pretty much precludes trying new things, and cannot comprehend progress or anything truly new. Sad but true. Hey they have (upside-down) mortgages and kids in college after all. Why risk anything when you have a steady paycheck? Why do any work when you can shuffle papers and fly to conferences for a living?

So it is up to us little people to make the breakthroughs. After we prove the new concept against the resistance of "science", after it cannot be denied anymore, people will nonetheless give credit to "science" never knowing the difference between "science" and science.
C'mon let's get it going!
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1274 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Colin Jack ???

March 12, 2010 reflective note by 

Colin Bruce Jack     (preferred name)

"For the record, I now consider the original form of the  Free Rotor to be better suited to a tidemill than an aerial design. The reasons include high centrifugal force on the secondary turbines/generators and the large variable force on the helicopter-style rotor blades in an aerial version. Of course a tidemill would involve far slower tip speeds."        ~ Colin Bruce Jack

(refers to Free Rotor patent instruction, 1992. See thread's prior messages.

=========================================================

 www.wipo.org/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1992020917  for original patent document with images in PDF format  From that page, click "Documents" and then on next served page choose "Download" and choose the PDF version.

tide mill, tidemill,  aerial mill, autogryro, turbine-tipped free rotor,  Free Rotor, Colin Jack, Colin B. Jack,

Part of AWE Sector space invites paragraphs on thousands of terms related to AWECS.
 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
Support what you want to keep. How?  ==

========================

In the 45 page, 1992 instruction, there are many detail comments and  schemes open for study.

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1275 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Dave S
 
(here is the said precedent message with corrections and perhaps a past transcription problem,or a future double)
 
With such a system (with "elastic return") the transmission of power (and with variable tangential force and result losses) is only for the half of swept area (morever the middle of a looping path is not a swept area,being an occupied space).Potential power of kite and swept area are not wholly used.It does not mean such a system is not efficient.There are a lot of parameters.For example such a system with looping path maybe allows passive control (it is not possible for orthokite configuration or very difficult).
 
A good appreciation of a system takes in count the specific use.
 
(groundgen) the whole quick trajectories generate optimal power,that right and left with alternation of working tether,with (15 to 55° angle of kites flight) only parasitic axial forces with vertical axis and nearly no axial forces with oblic axis.So there are a double tether (with existant but limited drag and weight losses) and a double lever.But a complete calculation of ROI is not only about materials but also and above all about space occupation according any wind directions and tether length.ROI is by far lower if 20 km3 instead 10 km3 are used for an identical power.
 
Another problem is losses with downwind motion that affect (more successful for projects) linear reel systems (KiteGen stem and others) but also lever and crankshaft systems with oscillating or rotational motions (KiteGen carousel,OrthoKiteBunch etc.).The pdf Windenergienutzung mit schnell fliegenden Flugdrachen gives a useful panorama of kite systems with formulas:see p.17 on reeling-in-out systems and p.8 on flygens.On p.17 a formula schows power and loss of power because of loss of relative wind (force is 4/9 with reel-out speed = 2/3 real wind speed).So lot studies gave an equivalent power according to wing area from conventional turbine where middle parts slowly turn and from kite groundgen systems where there is relative wind loss.
 
Pierre B 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1276 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Colin Jack ???
It  is nice to see some discussion of the effects of AWE on weather at the 1st link.  There once was an old sailor in New England who could spot the disturbance of a sail in the cloud patterns and predict the arrival of ships days in advance. 
Also, wonderful to see a reference to tide mills.  This sort of technology is even more suited to marine use, because of the ease of creating buoyancy, the cost of moorages versus pilings or weighted keels, ease of servicing during slack tide, and the lack of storm  problems.

Bob Stuart

Water Corrodes
Salt Water Corrodes Absolutely.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1277 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1278 From: Dan Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@... Hi Joe,

Very nice.

Dan'l
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1279 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: TU Delft Course

Six lectures.

Question about the Lecture 4?    One slide; question is sent to Jeroen Breukels about such.

 TU Delft Course

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1280 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Inflatable structures for AWECS

Thread start:

 Inflatable structures by Jeroen Breukels        PowerPoint file.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1281 From: dave santos Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Cool, JoeF, this is the same general idea KiteLab's KiteMotor1 validated. I used a lifter-kite & capstans while Englemann shows bull wheels & LTA.
 
Continuous loop transmission from quite high altitudes is practical, but all solid wing/turbine concepts will long be cubic scale-limited to low mw ratings.


From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1282 From: Dave Lang Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Turbine blades / Betz coefficient
Doug wrote.....
Doug, you might identify what types of help you need, so as to
attract interested parties with needed skills.

DaveL
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1283 From: Geoffrey G Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS
Here's my idea:

http://www.hicon.us/gpage7.html

I've built and tested 30 HeliWind models and will publish my power curve results next month.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1284 From: harry valentine Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
The Continuous loop will become increasingly important in the transmission of power. The windlass is a variation of the continuous loop that involves multiple windings of cable around the barrel-pulleys at both ends. The Laddermill group claimed 200MW on the Laddermill system. Using the continuous loop certainly beats using gears and long driveshafts.
 
 
QUESTION: What would be the maximum possible rotational ratio between input vs. output?
 
 
Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:34:10 -0800
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Loop transmission of mechanical energy

 
Cool, JoeF, this is the same general idea KiteLab's KiteMotor1 validated. I used a lifter-kite & capstans while Englemann shows bull wheels & LTA.
 
Continuous loop transmission from quite high altitudes is practical, but all solid wing/turbine concepts will long be cubic scale-limited to low mw ratings.


From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@ gmail.com






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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1285 From: harry valentine Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS
There would be some interesting applications for a Heliwind power generation concept if it could drive into a vertical axis . . . it could connect on the a hydroelectric power dam and drive a pumping turbine during the overnight offpeak periods . . . to pump water into storage at higher elevation.
 
 
Harry
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: goeggel@hawaii.rr.com
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:18:25 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

 
Here's my idea:

http://www.hicon. us/gpage7. html

I've built and tested 30 HeliWind models and will publish my power curve results next month.




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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1286 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
There really is no limit to the ratio of a belt drive.  The small pulley has to respect the flexibility of the tether, but you can make the big end as large as you care  to.  Using a large pulley aloft minimizes the power-carrying force on the line,  so the kite does not try to reel itself in.
Use  of this system allows the lifting kite to be feathered into strong winds, maintaining reasonable f orces and steady output, or  flown across a  gentle wind to get the same output.  This seems like a great advantage to me.

Looking at old books and bridges, I am struck by the great profusion of trusses.  To choose the most efficient one, one can simply draw a funicular polygon over them, and measure  the forces and therefore the guages as well as the lengths of the members.  A few day's work would have let any engineer select the cheapest type from the whole list of patents, or improve on them.  Most modern warehouse ceilings reveal a compromise betwee material and easy fabrication.  It won't be so easy to come up with realistic estimates of the  cost per watt for various AWE  schemes, but that's what we are really here for.

Best,
Bob

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1287 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Father of Sky WindPower's Len and PJ had something going with loops for the focus in this thread:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1288 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Alexander Bolonkin (crosswind to groundgen)

Dave S
 
With such a system (with "elastic return") the transmission of power (and with variable tangential force and result losses) is only for the half of swept area (morever the middle of a looping path is not a swept area,being an occupied space).Potential power of kite and area swept are not wholly used.
 
(groundgen) the whole quick trajectories generate optimal power,that right and left with alternation of working tether,with (15 to 55° angle of kites flight) only parasitic axial forces with vertical axis and nearly no axial forces with oblic axis.So there are a double tether (with existant but limited drag and weight losses) and a double lever.But a complete calculation of ROI is not only about materials but also and above all about space occupation according any wind directions and tether length.ROI is by far lower if 20 km3 instead 10 km3 are used for an identical power.
 
Another problem is losses with downwind motion that affect (more successful for projects) linear reel systems (KiteGen stem and others) but also lever and crankshaft systems with oscillating or rotational motions (KiteGen carousel,OrthoKiteBunch etc.).The pdf Windenergienutzung mit schnell fliegenden Flugdrachen gives a useful panorama of kite systems with formulas:see p.17 on reeling-in-out systems and p.8 on flygens.On p.17 a formula schows power and loss of power because of loss of relative wind (power is 4/9 with reel-out speed = 2/3 real wind speed).So lot studies gave an equivalent power according to wing area from conventional turbine where middle parts slowly turn and from kite groundgen systems where there is relative wind loss.
 
Problems from flygens are weight aloft.
 
More I see on AWECS more it seems difficult (but possible) for working implementation.It will be a good think if you or me take Mexican beer or French red:I am afraid that it will be fresh water,at least for a little time.
 
Pierre B 
 

What is the optimal roll-out speed?

 
 
 

 
Downwind and upwind 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1289 From: Doug Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
The loop appears to be viable. Appears.
Maybe it is, maybe not. At some level obviously it could work, as no physical laws are violated and it has been demonstrated by Dave S. (among others?).
I've found there are often unforseen aspects that manifest operating machines.

A few aspects I can think of to check for here:
1. Centrifugal force: The cable itself may fly off the wheel by centrifugal force at some speed.

2. level of tension vs RPM vs power: more power can be transmitted at higher speeds of tether loop travel, just as a driveshaft can transmit more power at higher RPM, being limited by max torque. In the case of the loop, power trtansmitted is limited by tension that may break the cable, or pull the assembly downward.

3. How much power can you make at what linear speed of looping cable before the tension in the line is pulling the lifting body back to Earth? Lower speeds for a give level of power will entail higher tension levels. then again higher speeds many be too fast to be practical i.e. mach numbers and centrifugal force around capstans and bullwheels.

4. Tether contacts itself in opposing directions: could be friction and abrasion problems here, or even lockup of the machine if it gets caught or twisted together.

5. Upward pull: It seems that power transmitted by upward tension will be limited by how hard the machine can pull upward (downwind). I am not sure about this but I get the feeling (seems mathematically unavoidable) even for my own machines that a certain amount of the energy will be "used up" by just providing the energy to keep the thing in the air. As in a helicopter need fuel to stay aloft. Unless you are relying totally on helium etc., for support against gravity, it would seem that the continuous energy required to support the structure against gravity must be subtracted from the usable energy output.
Anyway a few simple engineering calculations could tell a lot about the tension/centrifugal force aspects.
I found for example in building regular wind turbines that even a chain drive is challenged at small turbine RPMs by centrifugal force due to low diameter sprockets and high RPM.
I would recommend someone mathematically model a complete hypothetical looping tension power transmission system and check for these realities.
Calculate: tether loop tension on both the upwind and downwind traveling parts of the loop. Add that combined tension to the amount of thrust/lift needed to keep the system aloft. Calculate how much power can be transmitted by said tether at said speed. Calculate how a tether would respond to centrifugal force around pulleys at that speed and tension level. Calculate, using the coeffiecient of friction, whether the cable can even remain in contact wioth the capstan/bullwheel at that speed/tension level, considering centrifugal force. You may find out you are trying to "puch a rope" in the sense that the max power transmissable by this method may be severely limited. I haven't run any such numbers but that is my 2 cents on this otherwise seemingly workable concept.

Else just build them and show the numbers of the working systems.
With my own machines, they are so close to what is already known that little math or calculation is needed to design and build them, as I can just look at other machines and power levels and size everything appropriately, even magnets and airgaps etc. I manufacture and sell great alternators but have never done a flux calculation or simulation in my life - just shoot from the hip and after a few trials and errors, hit the target. But this looping thing would seem to be in a position now to benefit from such simple and straightforward engineering calculations as I mention. Maybe someone has already done that.

At least the concept is straightforward enough that it should be possible to build decent-sized models without too much head-scratching, though it is always 1000 times easier to talk than to build.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1290 From: harry valentine Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level
I do have a concern about the power level that a loop drive system could transmit. A wind turbine rotating at at 30RPM with a torque of 150,000-Lb-ft would generate 856-Hp or 638MW. If the drum of the loop were 5-ft diameter, the cable would carry a tensile load of 60,000-Lb-force. Increase the diameter to 10-feet would reduce the tensile load to 30,000-Lbf.
 
Laddermill proposed to generate 200MW per installation . . . which could reduce the tensile load on the looped cable to around 10,000-lbf. This would change depending on rotor RPM and torque level.
 
Dave Santos approach to using 3-cables that divide into 6-cables would offer greater longevity to the power transmission tension cables.
 
The "flygen" group has a point that they can generate high levels of power at high altitude and transmit the power to the ground via power cable.
 
 
Harry


 



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1291 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: KULeuven Kite Power Group (KiteLab Group Review)
KULeuven Kite Power Group's Jan. presentation by Prof. Moritz Diehl at TUMuenchen is a window into its program & well summarizes current AWE issues & research worldwide (link below). This review finds close affinities between Leuven & KiteLab Group's thinking. Leuvan is focused on AWE mathematical physics & flys small experiments to validate formal models. KiteLab Group uses many small experiments to generate mathematical insight & new testable hypotheses. The two efforts make unique contributions but converge on key points. 
 
Leuven & KiteLab find groundgens & mechanical transmission preferred over flygens with conductive cables. Leuven rates an 8 cm kevlar cable at 14 mw in one model. KiteLab has directly tested HAWT flygens & conductors. No electric tether comes close to polymer, especially by cost, weight, & transmission efficiency. Lueven sees flygen/conductive tether mass aloft as a major negative. Kitelab agrees, with added emphasis on safety-critical/insurability as the deal-killer. A difference between Lueven & KiteLab is the hard v. soft wing issue. Leuven is betting that quadratic increase in power extracted by a high L/D hard wing beats cubic scaling penalties. KiteLab predicts hard wings will be severely scale limited & capital cost challenged for decades.
 
Leuven presumes a reelgen (power reel-out with recovery phase), but will soon find that a kite driving a groundgen by a crank geometry (including track & cableway loops) can stand its ground & generate more power with a simpler control cycle. Optimal reel-out speed is again calculated to be 1/3 of windspeed. A KiteLab hypothesis is that the tethered foil should be similarly loaded to the same realtive wind (airspeed) for both reel-out & crank methods.
 
Leuven's Boris Houska has devised an NMPC (Nonlinear Model Predictive Control) state-machine based kite simulation. USussex genetic programmer Allister Furey's mutant code flys similar lazy-eights. How cool if the two simulators could compete or interact in flying a virtual reference kite for best efficiency, robustness, & lowest actuation force. KiteLab has been refining compact NMPC state machines (Chaotic Controller) with micrometeorologic states & a semantic interface. Boris correctly finds a semi-stable "strange attractor" in his state space. KiteLab in 2007 found the classic single line "toy" kite in flight to be a strange attractor state, upon Van Veem's '96 finding that kite flight is chaos physics. Another major strange attractor is the surface, where a kite also spends time. Turbulence is the major chaos cause, but the kite itself generates chaos. How nice to have a nonlinear AWE club going.
 
Academics are timid about public gossip, but Leuven's presentation drops hints. There's the Italian KiteGen rift, where we all remain friends with both sides, but hope they make up.  Makani Power's overreach is mentioned. Like many others, Leuven was fire-walled by Makani/Google secrecy. TU Delft has spun off (or been gutted) of its talent in the AmpyxPower start-up. There are plenty of tea leaves to read.
 
So check out Leuven's AWE presentation below & use it to impress & draft geeks. Lloyd's math for crosswind power is nicely presented, with reel-out. A neat Lissajous lazy-eight pattern with a return phase is defined. Some double digit mw schemes are convincingly presented. Expect great progress from this team-
 
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1292 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Bob,
 
Good point about belt drives, a toothed belt can do 40 to 1 easily, with good grab on the small pulley. The limit is how big one wants the big pulley, which need not be toothed. Belts are failsoft, cheap, & easily replaced compared to regular gearing. A kevlar or spectra fiber reinforced rubber belt is very robust. Belts do have a bit of elastic loss.
 
 
Doug,
 
Your questions are extensively addressed in many old AWE forum posts. For examples: The slack side of a moving cable loop hangs well below the pulled side. A static tether to the lifter, to hang the continuous loop turbine from, is basic rigging. Cableways of all kinds are very mature; next time you ski study the skilifts. Of course no airborne turbine pulls harder than its static tension. KiteLab keeps its high L/D turbine square to the wind & the cheap pilot-lifter enjoys relaxed Re flow. Cable loops scale to thousands of meters. No hard structure comes close. Etc, etc. Dozens of old posts elaborate these themes.
 
Please don't turn this into yet another SuperTurbine (R) thread, unless you finally predict for everyone how high AWE drive shafts will work, with a few numbers like weight/cost/etc, to compare with cableway numbers. Your existing machines are not yet AWE & seem far more suited to non-airborne turbine forums for the amount of "talk" they get here.
 
daveS


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

The loop appears to be viable. Appears.
Maybe it is, maybe not. At some level obviously it could work, as no physical laws are violated and it has been demonstrated by Dave S. (among others?).
I've found there are often unforseen aspects that manifest operating machines.

A few aspects I can think of to check for here:
1. Centrifugal force: The cable itself may fly off the wheel by centrifugal force at some speed.

2. level of tension vs RPM vs power: more power can be transmitted at higher speeds of tether loop travel, just as a driveshaft can transmit more power at higher RPM, being limited by max torque. In the case of the loop, power trtansmitted is limited by tension that may break the cable, or pull the assembly downward.

3. How much power can you make at what linear speed of looping cable before the tension in the line is pulling the lifting body back to Earth? Lower speeds for a give level of power will entail higher tension levels. then again higher speeds many be too fast to be practical i.e. mach numbers and centrifugal force around capstans and bullwheels.

4. Tether contacts itself in opposing directions: could be friction and abrasion problems here, or even lockup of the machine if it gets caught or twisted together.

5. Upward pull: It seems that power transmitted by upward tension will be limited by how hard the machine can pull upward (downwind). I am not sure about this but I get the feeling (seems mathematically unavoidable) even for my own machines that a certain amount of the energy will be "used up" by just providing the energy to keep the thing in the air. As in a helicopter need fuel to stay aloft. Unless you are relying totally on helium etc., for support against gravity, it would seem that the continuous energy required to support the structure against gravity must be subtracted from the usable energy output.
Anyway a few simple engineering calculations could tell a lot about the tension/centrifugal force aspects.
I found for example in building regular wind turbines that even a chain drive is challenged at small turbine RPMs by centrifugal force due to low diameter sprockets and high RPM.
I would recommend someone mathematically model a complete hypothetical looping tension power transmission system and check for these realities.
Calculate: tether loop tension on both the upwind and downwind traveling parts of the loop. Add that combined tension to the amount of thrust/lift needed to keep the system aloft. Calculate how much power can be transmitted by said tether at said speed. Calculate how a tether would respond to centrifugal force around pulleys at that speed and tension level. Calculate, using the coeffiecient of friction, whether the cable can even remain in contact wioth the capstan/bullwheel at that speed/tension level, considering centrifugal force. You may find out you are trying to "puch a rope" in the sense that the max power transmissable by this method may be severely limited. I haven't run any such numbers but that is my 2 cents on this otherwise seemingly workable concept.

Else just build them and show the numbers of the working systems.
With my own machines, they are so close to what is already known that little math or calculation is needed to design and build them, as I can just look at other machines and power levels and size everything appropriately, even magnets and airgaps etc. I manufacture and sell great alternators but have never done a flux calculation or simulation in my life - just shoot from the hip and after a few trials and errors, hit the target. But this looping thing would seem to be in a position now to benefit from such simple and straightforward engineering calculations as I mention. Maybe someone has already done that.

At least the concept is straightforward enough that it should be possible to build decent-sized models without too much head-scratching, though it is always 1000 times easier to talk than to build.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk!


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1293 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1294 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS
trully fasinating, thx
I have an opportunity with some land I have, doing solar, using the california solar initiative, wife says i have to make money.
Lynn

---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1295 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS
Woopy Jump video,WOOPYFLY , WOOPYJUMP, WOOPY !! website,from Swiss:describes an interesting mixt of inflatable and rigid structure.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1296 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Kite Control using Deterministic Chaos Function
Ah, KiteLab's "Chaotic Controller" has Asian ancestors. As Dean Jordansan tell grasshopper, "kite must see ahead".  
 
May Korean read in your mailer... 
 
==========================

Journal of Electrical Engineering and Information Science Vol.3 No.2, 1998. 4


Implementation of Chaotic State Machine using Deterministic Chaos Function


Kwang-Hyeon Park · Jong-Sun Hwang · Chong-Eun Chung 저
pp. 145~150 (6 pages)

간행물명 : Journal of Electrical Engineering and Information Science
발행기관 : 한국정보과학회
간행물유형 : 학술저널
작성언어 : 영어
파일형식 : PDF
DBPIA 고유번호 : 604288

이 논문을



서지다운로드




목차




Abstract
Ⅰ. Introduction
Ⅱ. Chaotic state machine
Ⅲ. Chaotic properties of chaotic state machine
Ⅳ. Conclusion
References
저자소개





초록




영어 초록

For practical application of the concept of chaos, we propose a chaotic state machine as a sequential system. Chaotic state machine which is suggested and implemented in this paper has chaotic motions relying on the dynamics only through the deterministic chaos function. Also, we present and verify that the properties of chaotic state machine is equal to the characteristics of chaos.*

 



* mexican emphasis

 

Note- substitute above "nonlinear" or "nonlinearity" in place of "chaotic" or "chaos", if you wish.

 

 






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1297 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Handbook of Chaos Control
US $289.00??? Let JoeBen buy it ;*)
 
 
Cover image for product 3527406050
Handbook of Chaos Control
ISBN: 978-3-527-40605-0
Hardcover
849 pages
December 2007
US $289.00 Add to Cart

This price is valid for United States. Change location to view local pricing and availability.

  • Description
  • Table of Contents
  • Author Information
  • Reviews
This long-awaited revised second edition of the standard reference on the subject has been considerably expanded to include such recent developments as novel control schemes, control of chaotic space-time patterns, control of noisy nonlinear systems, and communication with chaos, as well as promising new directions in research. The contributions from leading international scientists active in the field provide a comprehensive overview of our current level of knowledge on chaos control and its applications in physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, and engineering. In addition, they show the overlap with the traditional field of control theory in the engineering community.
An interdisciplinary approach of interest to scientists and engineers working in a number of areas.
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1298 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Two more cents in a quick sketch.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1299 From: dave santos Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Joe,
 
A multirotor must truly outperform its conventional turbine competitors by weight-to-power & ROI to gain AWE market interest.
 
Looks like a marginal call, a tangible test is side by side flyoff of a small multi-rotor AWE prototype weight matched to KiteMotor 1 airborne HAWT (450gr). Lets presume near equal capital cost. Maybe Doug will like upper winds reachable by cable loop.
 
KiteMotor 1 does indeed have a long driveshaft (80cm) compared to most small turbines, close to its practical weight limit,
 
daveS


From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com

Two more cents in a quick sketch.

 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1300 From: Doug Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: 2009 HAWP Conference Video / Tarantula Bass / YouTube
I just ran across this 42-second video, taken by Ben Begley, of the Superturbine(R) demo flying wind turbine, lofted by the green helium balloons, at our recent first-ever 2009 world HAWE conference in Oroville:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgo58KSEljk

Also if anyone is interested, I make custom guitars.
Here's a Tascam ad on Youtube from the 2009 NAMM show, featuring a Selsam Tarantula Bass guitar, and an all-girl band:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rchM-xJDKkI

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh Roger that.
Doug Selsam
~brawk!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1301 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
DaveS,
        What happened to those other 50 g    on the 1.3 m  turbine described  for Kite Motor 1 on
 
So, we give say 500 g  to  DougS  and 500 g to DaveS; each makes a kite motor driving an endless loop to a ground generator.  We give the same lifter to each team. Both have junction of the kite motor shaft at the same upper station on the tether. Each team uses the same COTS generator on the ground. The teams fly side-by-side with a safe separation laterally for one hour and the total Wh is measured by COTS meters. Then the generator and meters are exchanged and one more hour is flown.  Assume same cost of getting the 500 g  into the shape and structure desired.    Maybe let in a third competitor; someone uses the 500 g to form dancing kites tangentially driving their mini-rod-shaft at junction. And perhaps a fourth competitior with 500 g  sculpted into a variDrogue lofted system.  Other?   Rules might receive refinement by others before the contest gets underway.   Of course there will be a trophy from perhaps KiteEnergy (tm) or AWEIA or others.   And an invitation might be sent out to LIFE magazine and others for witnessing the event, or not; maybe keep this quiet.
 
JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1302 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Inflatable structures for AWECS

Pierre,
 
            Very kewl indeedy, gotta love it!
 
                                                          Dan'l

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:18:01 +0100
Subject: re: [AWECS] Inflatable structures for AWECS

 
Woopy Jump video,WOOPYFLY , WOOPYJUMP, WOOPY !! website,from Swiss:describes an interesting mixt of inflatable and rigid structure.






Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1303 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

 

Lets not just fly-off the two devices, but open the "Great AWE Race" to all safe demos. If an AWE idea has merit it should be workable at model scales. For venues, Drachen is planning a Kite Energy Symposium (Yakima?) & WSIKF 2010 (Long Beach, WA) is a top kite fest in KiteLab Ilwaco's backyard.

 

KiteLab Ilwaco seeks to establish its remote local coast as a regional AWE proving ground. Come test your prototypes here or contract expert kite pilots to do your endurance trials. The hospitality is fine; natural beauty & wind are sublime; & the World Kite Museum & archive are here for those who study all things kites. Relocate your AWE startup here for an edge. Advanced kite/AWE training & all related services also available.


Memory's a fog, the missing 50 grams are probably metric rounding or line weight allowance, as 1lb was the design target; will reweigh.


From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com

DaveS,
        What happened to those other 50 g    on the 1.3 m  turbine described  for Kite Motor 1 on
 
So, we give say 500 g  to  DougS  and 500 g to DaveS; each makes a kite motor driving an endless loop to a ground generator.  We give the same lifter to each team. Both have junction of the kite motor shaft at the same upper station on the tether. Each team uses the same COTS generator on the ground. The teams fly side-by-side with a safe separation laterally for one hour and the total Wh is measured by COTS meters. Then the generator and meters are exchanged and one more hour is flown.  Assume same cost of getting the 500 g  into the shape and structure desired.    Maybe let in a third competitor; someone uses the 500 g to form dancing kites tangentially driving their mini-rod-shaft at junction. And perhaps a fourth competitior with 500 g  sculpted into a variDrogue lofted system.  Other?   Rules might receive refinement by others before the contest gets underway.   Of course there will be a trophy from perhaps KiteEnergy (tm) or AWEIA or others.   And an invitation might be sent out to LIFE magazine and others for witnessing the event, or not; maybe keep this quiet.
 
JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1304 From: Dan Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Good Stuff
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1305 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Sounds like fun!
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1306 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy - power level
Anyone truly serious about developing airbourne wind energy can find places to deploy and test where no authority will restrict their height. Try an open desert (away from air bases etc.) where nobody is around to care, a ship in the open ocean, a country that doesn't mind, or an uninhabited island.
Also it is possible to gain the first 1.5 - 2 miles of height by simply driving to the top of a mountain.
The first thing bureaucracy often brings to a project is to make any reasonable course of action impossible due to red tape.
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1307 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Wow I didn't realize you had all the details worked out.
OK then so what's stopping your from building them?
Why not build a 1 kW demo? If all basic questions have been satisfactorily answered, it seems like a weekend project to me.
What component are you missing? Can I be of any assistance?
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1308 From: Doug Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Flying CoAxial Multirotor Gyrocopter Experiment Video
A favorite video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNijFNL2uV8
Wow look it flies all by itself!
Multiply by 100X and connect to a generator at ground level.
Da's what I'm talkin' 'bout Homie!

You wouldn't get this from a "scientist" (official version).
Nope, only a backyard tinkerer (actual scientist) could come up with this.
How many millions of dollars do you think this took?
None - all it took was a little vision, a few hours of dedication, and some pocket change.
Could any big "lab" have accomplished this? Perhaps in lieu of a single "conference" attendance with its admission and flight costs?

("I think I'll skip this conference and try to build a new type of flying wind turbine") ha ha in your dreams - they get paid to say everything is impossible. 1) Try something new; 2) get laughed at; 3) get fired. That's how they look at it.

Hey if there was something new on the horizon, it could entail "work" so denial and refusal to try anything new, or even consider it, is a safer, easier course.
I guess they would have to have a vision that new configurations are possible and the determination to try them. Ahh it's easier to fly to one more conference and squander the millions on more design stagnation, rubber-stamping what is already known, pushing the same paperwork back and forth from one desk to the next.

:)
Doug S.
(See US Patent 6616402 for stacked rotors with trailing tails on bearings to maintain proper heading and angle of attack)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1309 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Flying CoAxial Multirotor Gyrocopter Experiment Video


http://www.energykitesystems.net/AutoGiroKites/index.html

Doug, the page includes a link to your extensive patent along with a small sample of autorotating kite items.

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1310 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

 BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs (flying electric generators)

AWE with skyGen and some tether challenges are instructed:

Application number: 12/505,308
Publication number: US 2010/0013236 A1
Filing date: Jul 17, 2009

TETHER HANDLING FOR AIRBORNE ELECTRICITY GENERATORS

 Joseph A. Carroll

Assigned to BaseLoad Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1311 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Doug,
 
If you read the old forum posts there is no need to guess we were either clueless or "had all the details worked out" of loop-transmission, just that you were clearly unaware how far the forum explored these ideas before presenting your initial questions.
 
What "stops (KiteLab) from building (Flying HAWTs)? KiteLab's stategy is not (yet) manufacture, but comparative evaluation of diverse promising concepts, to generate (testable) claims & resolve AWE "model uncertainty". Evaluation of flying HAWTs came early, as a baseline, The finding is that such rotors are poorly scalable for flight & not COTS enough. A multi-rotor would be hardly better. The focus now is more immediately promising methods (large looping stock parafoils under stock pilot kites & meshed large-scale AWE arrays).
 
Please do your claimed magic, a "1kw...weekend project" to reach far higher than 40 ft or so your HAWPCON09 demo did. An afternoon project would be to solve your helium blues. Those latex balloons shriveled overnight (at great cost compared to the value of the electricity) & one somehow flew away uncontrolled. Maybe buy a decent mini aerostat. This much is "all worked out": Helium is a problematic crutch for even a SuperTurbine (R), a ROI killer.
 
Yes, please do "be of ...assistance". Clearly answer the long hanging questions posed about the scaled up weight & practical height limits of your driveshaft approach. My conjecture, based on cubic scaling reality, is that such an approach can't even surpass current standard utility scale HAWTs. I predict even 200 ft high will be massive & unwieldy for a mere megawatt or so. I wish my picture were rosier, but maybe your calculations are better.
 
Thank you for accepting the 500 gr challenge. Such a small device might take less than a weekend for someone as fast as you claim to be. You will be able to tap wind hundreds of feet up & properly join the growing AWE club. Let us all know when you have something flying high, it will be greatly welcomed,
 
daveS
 
 


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

Wow I didn't realize you had all the details worked out.
OK then so what's stopping your from building them?
Why not build a 1 kW demo? If all basic questions have been satisfactorily answered, it seems like a weekend project to me.
What component are you missing? Can I be of any assistance?
:)
Doug S.

scale to thousands of meters. No hard structure comes close. Etc, etc. Dozens of old posts elaborate these themes.
AM
speed of looping cable before the tension in the line is pulling the lifting body back to Earth? Lower speeds for a give level of power will entail higher tension levels. then again higher speeds many be too fast to be practical i.e. mach numbers and centrifugal force around capstans and bullwheels.
gravity, it would seem that the continuous energy required to support the structure against gravity must be subtracted from the usable energy output.
level. Calculate, using the coeffiecient of friction, whether the cable can even remain in contact wioth the capstan/bullwheel at that speed/tension level, considering centrifugal force. You may find out you are trying to "puch a rope" in the sense that the max power transmissable by this method may be severely limited. I haven't run any such numbers but that is my 2 cents on this otherwise seemingly workable concept.
thing would seem to be in a position now to benefit from such simple and straightforward engineering calculations as I mention. Maybe someone has already done that.
allows the lifting kite to be feathered into strong
we are really here for.
[AWECS] Loop transmission of mechanical energy


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1312 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: HAWT's
Hello,

you wrote:
"The finding is that such rotors are poorly scalable for flight &
not COTS enough."

What is the meaning of COTS? I didn't find it in the dictionary.

Best regards:
Uwe Fechner
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1313 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: HAWT's
Hi Uwe,
 
COTS stands for Commercial Off-The-Shelf (technology). Its considered a key to lean R & D as it minimizes risk & cost while speeding time to market.
 
Existing HAWTs are not AWE COTS, primarily due to excess flight weight. KiteLab's AWE HAWT is a marvel less than half the mass of similarly rated ground turbines. It took months to develop & has high structural complexity. Scaling up would be slow & painful. A somewhat larger cheap COTS parafoil beats it, if not by power-to-weight, then by cost-to-power, so why bother?
 
daveS


From: Uwe Fechner <ufechner@sk28.de http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1314 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
1) What is a COTS? voltage? RPM? Do we get one in advance so we can tune our system to it?
2) What if someone has an alternate method that doesn't involve the looping tether?
3) 1 lb. seems a bit small to get any significant power - larger size?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1315 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission / Space Elevator on "down"
OK I may be only seeing half the picture here, but it seems to me this looping scenario amounts to a wind-powered space elevator, trying as hard as it can to go "down". As much power as it's producing, it is using, to try as hard as it can to come down out of the sky.
It seems to me you might have to produce twice the power, or at least twice the total lift, as a system that used another method to get the power to the ground, than pulling downward on your airborne system. In light winds I could see:
1) hey this thing keeps crawling down the tether back to Earth!
2) hey this thing keeps crawling upwind!
3) Hey this thing keeps crawling just far enough down the line that it loses tension and the line is slipping around the wheel!
4) hey as soon as this thing gets going fast enough to really make any power, the centrifugal force of the tether keeps it from making proper contact with the drive wheel!

I do realize that a lot of this has been discussed here and I am sorry if any of this is redundant. If you could imagine anyone carefully reading every word of every long post in this list, you could imagine getting nothing else done all day. Perhaps that is why we see more talk than prototypes. Maybe we should take a week or two off (here) and get to work! :)
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1316 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Great AWE Race /// Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Watts is the basic measure of power output, voltage & rpm are secondary. A De Prony brake is the professional test engineer's instrument to measure shaft wattage independent of generator issues. The looping tether is also secondary, the basic requrement here is ability to reach higher winds. 1 lb is quite enough for rapid aerospace concept testing & is excellent for a personal scale AWE market. Sadly many developers don't see micropower a cool thing & flounder with premature scaling..


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

1) What is a COTS? voltage? RPM? Do we get one in advance so we can tune our system to it?
2) What if someone has an alternate method that doesn't involve the looping tether?
3) 1 lb. seems a bit small to get any significant power - larger size?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1317 From: Doug Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Wow I was thinking you were still pursuing the "wind turbine hangs from a kite or balloon" with a looping tether. Sorry about that.
That's why I said it could be a weekend project:
You have kites already - and lots of them and other people you know with many more, so lifting something up is not a problem.
Wind turbine rotors are available off-the-shelf, or very lightweight high performance rotors can be cut from raw lumber easily in a couple of hours or less.
Generators are ubiquitous in many forms.
You have line that can be looped.
Then you mount a generator in gimbals of a bicycle fork, or,
The rear wheel of an electric bike can have the tire removed and the rim used as a pulley, and you might even stick it on the front fork for directional flexibility of leave it on the back and clamp the front fork for mounting. Or fabricate from scratch. Even lumber works if you don't weld.
But I guess from what you're saying, you are now thinking the old laddermill idea from the 1970's is the way to go. I still like the laddermill too and have a lot more thoughts about it as time goes on.
Good luck!
:)
Doug S.
PS I would be wary of the impetus for decisions at each point.
Typically the pie-in-sky scenario of crackpot would-be inventors goes something like this:
1) identify promising nascent technology;
2) realize the next step is to build one;
3) identify reasons why this could not quite be built yet;
4) return to the all-talk format.
What I see are mainly step 3: identifying reasons why one can't be built yet:
1) not high enough for jet stream on first sttempt (gee ya think?)
2) too many regulations (and more can always be found)
The cure: The real step 3:
If your idea works for real, it will work to some degree at any scale within reason and at any height. Build it at any scale and get it going so you see what goes wrong and build the next one etc....
Current definition of HAWE: High Altitude Wind Excuses
;)
Join the
National Redundant Excuse Laboratories (NREL)
or
Almost Ready to Produce Another - Excuse (ARPA-E)
Can you say: "wahhhhhhhhhhhhh!" ?




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1318 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Doug,
 
Solid lumber is far from lightweight for anything but toy scale aviation. KiteMotor1's blades are lighter than balsa by volume, & tougher. Loop transmission is great to the extent you can drive the line fast, but its not the only contender. Pumping the line & pulling it around are also great methods. A sewing thread pulled at about 200 mph can do about a horsepower inside of its static breaking strength, a force which small amounts of lift can raise to high altitude, but this is just an illustration. True, all KiteLab's working solutions are lifted &/or stabilized by a pilot-lifter kite, including turbines & looping parafoils, since avionic automation is so poorly developed.
 
Don't think there are too few prototypes around because this forum has too much AWE content. There are now hundreds of prototypes & simulations of varying ambition. The serious AWE players do their homework & closely read everything for clues. The real drag on this forum is near constant off topic repetition of obvious points like how the government isn't making us happy or how sleaze exists in the backyard turbine world. Empty "attaboy" & search futz posts further dilute the AWE focus. Some great talent has been forced to unsubscribe due to such annoyance. If anyone could edit the old posts down to essentials it would be a great help.
 
Still awaiting your answer to driveshaft scaling question...
 
daveS
 


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

Wow I was thinking you were still pursuing the "wind turbine hangs from a kite or balloon" with a looping tether. Sorry about that.
That's why I said it could be a weekend project:
You have kites already - and lots of them and other people you know with many more, so lifting something up is not a problem.
Wind turbine rotors are available off-the-shelf, or very lightweight high performance rotors can be cut from raw lumber easily in a couple of hours or less.
Generators are ubiquitous in many forms.
You have line that can be looped.
Then you mount a generator in gimbals of a bicycle fork, or,
The rear wheel of an electric bike can have the tire removed and the rim used as a pulley, and you might even stick it on the front fork for directional flexibility of leave it on the back and clamp the front fork for mounting. Or fabricate from scratch. Even lumber works if you don't weld.
But I guess from what you're saying, you are now thinking the old laddermill idea from the 1970's is the way to go. I still like the laddermill too and have a lot more thoughts about it as time goes on.
Good luck!
:)
Doug S.
PS I would be wary of the impetus for decisions at each point.
Typically the pie-in-sky scenario of crackpot would-be inventors goes something like this:
1) identify promising nascent technology;
2) realize the next step is to build one;
3) identify reasons why this could not quite be built yet;
4) return to the all-talk format.
What I see are mainly step 3: identifying reasons why one can't be built yet:
1) not high enough for jet stream on first sttempt (gee ya think?)
2) too many regulations (and more can always be found)
The cure: The real step 3:
If your idea works for real, it will work to some degree at any scale within reason and at any height. Build it at any scale and get it going so you see what goes wrong and build the next one etc....
Current definition of HAWE: High Altitude Wind Excuses
;)
Join the
National Redundant Excuse Laboratories (NREL)
or
Almost Ready to Produce Another - Excuse (ARPA-E)
Can you say: "wahhhhhhhhhhhhh! " ?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1319 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: AeroInertia: Bola Masses & Pendulum Wings
Aeroinertia is a distinct phenomenon that often hides within other effects like aeroelasticity. Inertia is a great stabilizing mechanism. Gyroscopic inertia has many applications. Good examples of aeroinertia are the boomerang & bolas throwing weapon. Glide itself is aeroinertial.
 
A couple of days ago i tied a rock into a toy kiteline & was then easily able to tow the kite by swinging the rock around my head. In effect my arm became a much larger crank arm on the cheap. This might be a launch or flight persistence method, but watch out for that rock.
 
Many AWE schemes intend to drive a small turbine mounted on a fast rather unstable wing. If a fast wing sweeps inertially under a stable lifter as a pendulum, it can achieve high speed for the mounted turbine without the daunting control difficulties of earlier concepts. There is a bit more conductor required for the power cable to first go up to the lifter & then down, but this may be a minor disadvantage compared to the advantages.
 
COOPIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1320 From: Dave Lang Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: AeroInertia: Bola Masses & Pendulum Wings
DaveS,

Could you define precisely what "aeroinertia" is.....I am totally unfamiliar with that term?

DaveL



At 4:00 PM -0700 3/15/10, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1321 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Electric Kite Vehicles
Its been noted that electric vehicles with regenerative braking (even a TGV) can be towed by kites to charge. There are many electric car models in or near production. The Prius electric side is rated at 60kw, a typical power rating. Here is yet another COTS opportunity. Set an electric car core on a track to be pulled in circles by a kite & you have a "village scale" power plant. The included battery allows baseload supply thru calm periods. The car may remain drivable for ultimate flexibility. Other modes have previously been discussed: Kite tow & charging cross-country; parked charging with wheels jacked up for kite input. All kite gear can fit in a suitcase.
 
KiteLab Ilwaco has a partner in Portland, OR, that designs & makes the Metroboard electric skateboard, which regeneratively brakes*. A small circular track inside of a tri-tether is planned to demo the fixed AWE concept using a stock Metroboard. The nomadic modes will be trialed along the splendid paved Lewis & Clark beach trail where Kitelab Ilwaco is located.**
 
 
coopip
 

* The Metroboard designer writes-

 

There are two ways to regenerate energy and charge the battery:

 

1)     Exceed the top speed of the motor (e.g, going downhill, where gravity pulls you faster than the motor can push you (around 16 mph).  Note that you will regenerate regardless of whether you are applying power to the motor (i.e., pressing one of the speed buttons on the remote).

2)     Press one of our brake buttons (which will result in slowing you down, but if your kite can pull hard enough to still maintain some speed), you will have a sustained charge.

 

Let me know!

 

Thanks,
ILAN

 
** I've kite landboarded & kite biked this amazing trail the last three years, as an experimental commute. Its like a mini Le Mans course in the dunes, free of trees or wires, full of curves & hillocks. The old page-