Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES11634to11685 Page 129 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11634 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: A look a TwingTec's new kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11635 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11637 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11639 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11640 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11641 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11642 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11643 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Potenco, Inc. and AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11644 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: "Doug,We can agree that Pierre's thread here is crap, but no one top

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11645 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Suspended wind power plant comprising a wind concentrator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11646 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Doug,We can agree that Pierre's thread here is crap, but no one

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11647 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11648 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Untethered AWE: Dr.Gabor Dobos's project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11649 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11650 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11651 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Wind turbine by a pair of cooperating inventors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11652 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Anordnung zur Windenergienutzung | Arrangement for Wind Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11653 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11654 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Wind turbine by a pair of cooperating inventors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11655 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11656 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11657 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11658 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11659 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11660 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11661 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11662 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11663 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11664 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11665 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: another reason for rope driving as opposed to electric tethering

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11666 From: carlgu Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11667 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: AWES Anchoring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11668 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Potenco, Inc. and AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11669 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Journalist muses over Makani Power again ..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11670 From: dougselsam Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11671 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Barnard continues Makani Critique on Clean Technica

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11672 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pole Kiting, one avenue for AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11673 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11674 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Ragheb includes some AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11675 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11676 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11677 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Several AWES matters in Davidson Technology, Ltd. text

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11678 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Gyrokite as self-powered airborne platform for electronics systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11679 From: Rod Read Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11680 From: Rod Read Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11681 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11682 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Needed informations about tethered ST

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11683 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11684 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11685 From: dave santos Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Gyrokite as self-powered airborne platform for electronics syste



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11634 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: A look a TwingTec's new kite
Update? Anyone?\========================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11635 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study
Andres,

Try our pal, Dale Kramer's, data app, Wind Mapper Pro

http://www.windmapperpro.com/

He would likely provide it free, for non-commercial use,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 10:04 AM, Harry Valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11637 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Please remove tailed messages that severely go against Yahoo! posting policy. Thanks. 
Here is repost for the record of: 
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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11639 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
That tail message is still around, so a report of Rod's message:
Please do not append tailed messages when fit; thanks. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11640 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
Doug,

We can agree that Pierre's thread here is crap, but no one tops you in that regard,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:58 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11641 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Who is "we"?

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11642 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent
Thanks, DaveS for the analysis. Here is some work toward the matter: 

Patent applications Makani Power, Inc. circle
We have no proof of how complete our collection is for the topic.

  • Lind Damon Vander
    • Kite ground station and system using same
      WO 2013096345
    • Flight configuration and flight strategy for flight wind speeds
      WO 2012061598
    • Planform configuration for stability of a powered kite and a system and method for use of same
      WO 2011119876
  • Lind Damon Vander, Jacob Felser
    • High strength windable electromechanical tether with low fluid dynamic drag and system using same
      WO 2012012429
  • Damon Vander Lind, Pranay Sinha
    • Motor Pylons For A Kite And Airborne Power Generation System Using Same
      US 20130221154
  • Corwin Hardham, Damon Vander Lind, Niekerk Becker Van
  • Saul Griffith, Corwin Hardham, Wensheng Hua, Peter Lynn, Jim Mcbride
    • Controlling power extraction for wind power generation
      WO 2009020516
  • Saul Griffith, Peter Lynn, Don Montague, Corwin Hardham
  • Saul Griffith, Peter Lynn, Corwin Hardham
  • Dan Goldwater, Saul Griffith, Eric Wilhelm, Colin Bulthaup
    • Electronic elongation-sensing rope
      US7752830
  • v
[ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent applications or patents from Joeben Bevirt, Joby Energy, or any other kite-energy patentee?

[ ] Squibb Labs

[ ] Did this IP get into Makani Power or not? :    Gregory C Ashton, Corwin Hardham, Kevin D Johnson, Daniel W Meyers, Niekerk Johannes Van    WO2008014524A3

 

  • Towable airfoil system 

[ ] Potenco, Inc.

  • Colin Bulthaup, Saul Griffith, Dan Goldwater, Corwin Hardham, George Homsy, Eric Wilhelm, Brian Warshawsky, Mitch Heinrich, Michael Lin, Benji Rappoport, John Lewis,
    • Electrical Power Generator with Adaptive Coupling    US7747355  [[Ed. This could be used in AWES]]
  • Colin Bulthaup, Saul Griffith, Dan Goldwater, Corwin Hardharn, George Homsy, Eric Wilhelm, Brian Warshawsky, Mitch Heinrich, Michael Lin, Benji Rappoport
    • Human power generator with a sealed and unsealed chambers   [[Ed. This could be used in AWES]]
  • Colin Bulthaup, Dan Goldwater, Saul Griffith, Corwin Hardham, Mitch Heinrich, George Homsky, John Lewis, Michael Lin, Benji Rappoport, John Thomas, Brian Warshawsky, Eric Wilhelm 
  • Colin Bulthaup, Saul Griffith, Dan Goldwater, Corwin Hardham, George Homsy, Eric Wilhelm
    • Human power generation using dual pulls   US8013457    [[Ed. This could be used in AWES]]
  • Colin Bulthaup, Saul Griffith, Dan Goldwater,Corwin Hardham, George Homsy, Eric Wilhelm, Brian Warshawsky, Mitch Heinrich,Michael Lin, Benji Rappoport, Jon Thomas
    •  Anchor for a human power generator      US20080157536   [[Ed. This could be used in AWES]]
  • Colin Bulthaup, Saul Griffith, Dan Goldwater, Corwin Hardham, Georg Homsy, Eric Wilhelm
    • Motor powered string retraction for a human power generator       US20080157635
  •  Colin Bulthaup, John Lewis, Michael O'Hara
    • Synchronous control for generator output  US7915867  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11643 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Potenco, Inc. and AWES?
What has Potenco for a folding into AWE?
Start: 

Potenco preps for Interbike


Envision kite systems doing the prime driving. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11644 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: "Doug,We can agree that Pierre's thread here is crap, but no one top

Admire the talent of DaveS as unifier of AWE, in his best currency.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11645 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Suspended wind power plant comprising a wind concentrator
Suspended wind power plant comprising a wind concentrator
Study this?  There are probably some things to learn from this branch. 
EILERS, Harald; (DE)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11646 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Doug,We can agree that Pierre's thread here is crap, but no one

(correction)

Admire the talent of DaveS as unifier of AWE, in his best slogan. A sentence of such a beauty as it makes me lose the words. Without doubt DaveS's realizations as AWE should be up to his slogan.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11647 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
Pierre,

In this case "we" is Doug and me, since we both agree on the poorness of your"Yellow Journalism" complaint. Of course, you trapped yourself into only believing the opposite (that everybody but me and Doug are the "we" :).

Please finally answer honestly if I presumed wrong, and you actually do object to MikeB's censorship of technical corrections of his AWE journalism. It seems as if you are unwilling to confess that I was right in presuming you do not really object.

Thank you for making your MikeB censorship opinion clear, 

daveS

PS Apologies to the Forum for the abuses. We all need a resolution that respects productive posting and maintains freedom from censorship.




On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 3:25 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11648 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Untethered AWE: Dr.Gabor Dobos's project
Dear Pierre,

of course I know about this possibility and this development. The following link:

http://www.energyharvestingjournal.com/articles/biomimetic-aircraft-snatch-power-aloft-00004862.asp?sessionid=1
 places these developments into their right context, all of them having its own place in the progress.

Regarding my IFO I agree that temporary energy storage on the plane is the most critical problem of the idea. The invention itself grants a great degree of freedom to the user in choosing the method of energy storage. Practically any kind of physical, chemical, electrical or other solution may be used as an energy storage medium, among them liquid air or batteries too. Sometimes one of these posibilities  (e.g.: in your present post batteries, or in the forum liquid air) is overexposed.

Being a chemist, probably I see the difficulties as well as the opportunities regarding energy storage better than the authors of some simplifying opinions published in this forum. I try to show you now these opportunities briefly.

Batteries today have ridiculously low gravimetric energy density of about 0,4 kWh/kg battery, and at  the same time ridiculously high prices. A comparision can help you to agree with me, if I tell you that the gravimetric enerngy density of lithium metal is 12 kWh/kg. (That would be far enough in my IFOs.) That means that the "active " material in batteries is a very small proportion of the weight of a battery. At this point I hope, you begin  to guess that energy storage is first of all not a chemical problem. Furthermore,  maybe that not mettallic lithium would be the optimal energy storing medium on my IFOs. Just to  mention another idea, remember AWEC 2013 and Prof. Michael Sterners's "power to gas" conception regarding energy  storage. In that case "gas" means methan gas, possessing a gravimetric energy density of 15,5 kWh/kg, and its production technology is well known long ago. You can see that there are a lot of possibilities.I am working on choosing the optimal one. Forgive me that it's all what I can say in an open forum. I ask you not to follow Doug, by saying that what about he didn't heard , that doesn't exist.

Best regards,

Gabor




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11649 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

DaveS,

 

Thank you to make so many variations on the object of the present topic, illustrating it very well. You repeat the same lie at each post about MikeB's censorship existing only in your head, but this time agreeing with Doug writing "... a bunch of Dave S.- type crap" . So I am happy to be the actor of your reconciliation with DougS...You look so confuse! Please take a little of rest!

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11650 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
Doug,

Learn to create clear subject headings. You are rather off-topic, except in the sense that professional ethics is a consistent problem for you, no matter what topic you address.

Nobody here has ever supposed AWE is proven by words alone, but we do find value in worded AWE knowledge that you seem unable to appreciate.

Testing is the most common Forum advice, if only you paid attention better. Nobody seems to test more novel ideas than the KiteLab-kPower circle. Then there are the elite academic ventures, and we report their data results as they come available. We use their data as if it was our own. We also honor those who only work on abstract models, rather than field testing, because of our intellectual openness. Please stop pissing on such folks as a class, and you will be better respected.

Gipe only came up recently when he failed to understand how Makani gets rated power from such small trubine discs, and to his credit, he welcomed the correction. You wrongly make it sound as if anybody cared to convince him of AWE by abstract theory. We will honor his request to someday inform him when AWE testing is done to the formal standards of the conventional wind industry, since the standards and test programs have to evolve first (it took decades in conventional wind). We don't need him to agree to debate, since we can critique his AWE writings as they stand (without him even supplying data).

You have fallen badly behind in recent years in sharing testing progress and data, if that is your standard. Instead we get crazy essays on human stupidity, your ski reports, and simplistic repetitive criteria for identifying wind crackpots that remind of you. Nobody easily believes you have hidden solutions, but you can't show them. Nobody else claims so much, with so little to show.

We do have Forum rules for basic civility, but you just ignore them. If we had a rule that only data be presented, then novel concepts could not be discussed. You would likely just ignore the (data) rule, and post crackpot shtick anyway, since we know you quite well.

Go ahead and try to follow your proposed model of only doing real AWES systems, and only posting with validating data. The Forum would indeed admire such honest consistency of action and words,

daveS


On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:11 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11651 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Wind turbine by a pair of cooperating inventors
These two thinkers also have a patent application for heating fluids by lightning. http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2013178973
=============================================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11652 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Anordnung zur Windenergienutzung | Arrangement for Wind Energy
Kytoon-integrated turbine.   .     Filing was in 2007


Anordnung zur Windenergienutzung  


Page bookmarkDE202007013257  (U1)  -  Anordnung zur Windenergienutzung
Inventor(s):
Applicant(s):CL CARGOLIFTER GMBH & CO KGAA [DE] +
Classification:
- international:F03D9/00
- cooperative:
Application number:DE20072013257U 20070920 
Priority number(s):DE20072013257U 20070920
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11653 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
Pierre,

Please be clear, Did I guess wrong in presuming MikeB's Wind Journalism censorship habit does not bother you?

I also sincerely feel you do not care that he sock-puppeted Makani's website. Nor do you seem to mind his gross factual errors in attacking our friends like SWP. He really is an AWE journalist, not an AWE developer and you seem to forgive him anything, while you ignore that I really am a developer, not a journalist*. We are equal voices here. You are not censored. There is no Editor here, and the Forum is shared as equals.

If I am wrong, and you really do care, I apologize for presuming wrong. If I am right, shame on you for not admitting so.

Good luck in your AWE work,

daveS

* Dave Culp wrote me today on an AWE development, as a longtime friend. Since he is no longer paid by Makani, he does not defend their weaknesses, with only a desperate insult to apply (I reviewed Makani's poor prospects to him) How funny of you to imitate Makani push-back, unpaid; as economic non-viability :)






On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:52 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11654 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Wind turbine by a pair of cooperating inventors
Unfortunately, it would take almost constant lightning to justify the capital investment of this concept. The capacity factor is something like 1/1000 of wind power, at best. Nor is a building really AWE. 

Background Note-

The risk of the modern patent system is that the IP lawyers and government fee-based services are all to happy to take anyone's money and issue a patent, with hardly any concern for reasonableness, prior art, inventive leap, etc.. Individuals are stripped of life savings and start-ups are bankrupted. Patent trolls thrive in patent thickets. The average inventor would have a better chance in a casino.

Eventually patent pools emerge in many industries, for one-stop licensing. Such pools are full of junk patents, with rare nuggets of key IP. Its proposed (under the RAD doctrine) a general AWE IP Pool charge ~1% royalty on a potentially multi-trillion dollar AWE industry. If you hold AWE patents, and you want revenue to start, join the AWE Patent Pool. Contact Ed or Rod to license your IP (buy or sell) under non-exclusive inventor-cooperative terms, with incentives for early participation. 


On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:57 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11655 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
DaveS,
 
I presume your assertions to be false, as you invoque "my presumed acceptance" about false MikeB's censorship.
 
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11656 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

DaveS,

 

I put your posts as "Spam"

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11657 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Chinese finger trap
Collected arrays of blades one method...

Lets assume ( even for a second please ) that you do want to try and spin some torque through a long tensioned rope or tube...
Using some sort of outer sheath mounted blade or kite.

There are good "why not's" but lets first see what is possible.

If we use a braided (bias cut ) weave tube (like a Chinese finger trap or Techflex)

You can push bungs or rings axially into this material... imagine pushing a toroid ring to stretch out the material diameter... pull on the material ends and the ring gets stuck inside. Now fit a ring clamp over the outside of the sheath over the ring.

The tensed material is now held open at a distance from the ring and able to transmit torque along it's length.

OK so all that gives us is a wobbly vibration prone Universal Joint like axle at best what next?

Space out multiple rings inside the braided tube. On the ring clamp outer for each have a balanced blade configuration spinning the same way for each ring clamp.

OK the tube may turn and be a bit wild ... we can do something about that
 If instead of every ring clamp having blades / wings some clamps could (instead or added to the wing / blade) have a rail outer to allow carriages in a tensioned line mesh to stabilise the rotating Chinese finger trap.

OK I know this is odd coming from me ... thin tubes go against most of what I've argued for in terms of torque transfer....

But if anyone has the data (maybe Techflex do) on how much torque can be sent through this configuration.... It'd be very worth knowing.

If you start with a large enough braid such as in the leg prosthetic link... and scale up ...Then some very large diameter ring wings could be fitted and removed neatly and automatically onto a shaft.

And the braid probably doesn't even have to be fully densely populated in it's weave to work.. does that imply less drag or do we want to keep the material for better torque transfer?

OK thanks for reading to the end
If you know the answers please supply.
If you've built one please share.
If you know better please teach us.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11658 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap
All cc3.0 as per usual
In the video clip I linked is the start of a cell unit for a tidal turbine string set ... collective spinning rope device
The scales are all wrong yet and there is no supporting anchored mesh nor generator shown.
The bottom sinkers are all still to be collected and swung into the tidal flow direction with a steering cap drogue.
So you have very little to go on ... sorry
Improvement to follow

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11659 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap
One of the chief problems within a tensioned torque transmitting braided tube is likely to be wear
where the braid fibres or ribbons cross and rub under tension and flexion forces.

Which fibres best alleviate the frictional self degradation limits of this application ?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11660 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Rod,

 

Because I am French I do not understand all in this post and generally some other posts. Please can you make a quick rendering. "The tensed material is now held open at a distance from the ring and able to transmit torque along it's length". Is it a sort of ST with a better method to provide torque on the long axis, using radial tethers widing the axis without of excess of material causing too much drag?

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11661 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted
 In the tornado design http://youtu.be/_qxteznmp48?t=59s at 59 seconds..

Quite disappointed that nobody picked up that each blade... especially the lower ones would be most likely crushed by the line tension.

To offset this effect  Tornado types should either
1 have stack lines which meet the outer tips of the blades with inner running elasticaled bridling to the inside tips and tension ring points...
or
2 Have their bridles set much closer to the outer tip.. as a function of how down on the stack they are.

Elasticating the inner tension ring and the inner front bridle allows gust spilling.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11662 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap
Not sure about the
 without of excess of material causing too much drag
There's always something to shave off

but yes that's what I'm aiming for.... Someone probably has the tech on this studied and dismissed already.... please.
The tubes don't stay open at much distance ... It's a lot to do with a function of the amount of material in the braided tube.

Twisting any tube always makes it want to shorten ... like the childs play tunnel video I posted ages ago ... or a trampoline protection perimeter net... Mine's struggling in the wind outside right now.
This is why I designed toward more suitable high initial tension of tidal anchoring.

In a tidal regime a thinner tube will make a massive difference to line drag compensation requirements.

The bottom side of the tube should be dragged and weighted downstream as best as possible.
And / or the topside support structure should be held upstream and lifted up to the optimal alpha angle.



Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11663 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted
My idea, after some experiences on small objects, is external tension lines are not enough to assure the rotation of the whole system, making a noddle preventing it.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11664 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: inherent tornado structure flaw not spotted
Have you tried to do it in water though...
One solution to the coiling and line shrinking is to place sealed water filled tubes inside the braided tube sleeving.
The sleeve grips onto the bag and squeezes it ... OK.. it spins the bag too which adds weight to the shaft... but at least it's neutrally bouyant... a bit like the bouyant Dynamo kite ring idea
and the larger diameter drag is a help with aligning the blades to the flow without having to add too much of a drogue at the bottom of the shaft....


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11665 From: Rod Read Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: another reason for rope driving as opposed to electric tethering
http://www.assemblymag.com/articles/print/91583-preventing-high-voltage-failures

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11666 From: carlgu Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap

Hi Rod, I know a factory nearby my place which makes this type of sleeves you want: http://www.jddtech.com/en/home/home.php
 
See if this helps you...
 
Thanks with best regards,     Carl
 
 
From: Rod Read
Date: 2014-02-20 18:17
To: AWE
Subject: Re: [AWES] Chinese finger trap
 

Not sure about the
 without of excess of material causing too much drag
There's always something to shave off

but yes that's what I'm aiming for.... Someone probably has the tech on this studied and dismissed already.... please.
The tubes don't stay open at much distance ... It's a lot to do with a function of the amount of material in the braided tube.

Twisting any tube always makes it want to shorten ... like the childs play tunnel video I posted ages ago ... or a trampoline protection perimeter net... Mine's struggling in the wind outside right now.
This is why I designed toward more suitable high initial tension of tidal anchoring.

In a tidal regime a thinner tube will make a massive difference to line drag compensation requirements.

The bottom side of the tube should be dragged and weighted downstream as best as possible.
And / or the topside support structure should be held upstream and lifted up to the optimal alpha angle.



Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



On 20 February 2014 09:55, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11667 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: AWES Anchoring
Passive anchoring and active anchoring technology? 
Mobile? Vehicle? Soil? Extant structure? Kite station? Land use? Safety? Inspection?  Certification?

A kite AWES is not a kite without its essential subassembly: its anchoring; the kiting principle occurs if and only if there is the anchoring occurring. Have a breakaway anchor and the kiting principle might still occur by adequate reaction from the fugitive anchor parts that are facing a new environment during a breakaway.   The anchor could be a free-flying wing set or a soil wing set or a vehicular wing set. Finally the AWES anchoring reacts or is in reactive couple with the wing set at opposing ends of the tethers of the tether set of the AWES or kite-energy system. In large-scale AWES, special engineers will be on duty to design AWES anchors. There will be third-party inspectors of AWES anchors. Anchor systems will need to be inspected for safe conditions. 
     A kite station or ground station involved as part of the AWES cannot safely ignore how the ground station is satisfying safe reaction to the tension changes of the the AWES. A large massive kite station just sitting on a ground plate might be pulled along the ground or ice or water unwantedly; care for rooting the kite station to meet the reactive demands of operation is part of the full design deal.  Uprooted anchor parts flying under the pull of a flying wing set can cause death and damages.  Dog stakes and tent-line anchors might fit toy kite systems.   How will one know that the anchor system is adequate?
     In FFAWE there is anticipate flight controls for the anchoring wing set as well as flight controls for the opposed wing set.  Towed water paravane anchoring in AWES may have controls; hapa may have controls on the wings at both ends of the line set. 
    Anchor design will be dependent on the media in which the anchor exercises its dynamics and statics. Will the anchor system be in one or more media? Will the media be soil, ice, water, gravel, extant structures, air, space, flesh?  
    How do various anchors fail?  Incidents? Fatigue? Cracks? Rot? Over-tension? Wear?  Age? Burning? Corrosion? Earthquake? Accidental disruption? Vandalism? Tearing? 
    This topic thread invites over time any anchoring notes and discussion.  K:{W1,T,W2}     Notice how W1 or W2 is "anchor" relative to the other.  Such notice could invite energy production options that might have otherwise been missed by AWES developers. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11668 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Potenco, Inc. and AWES?
Potenco died years ago due to high cost-structure and a lack of novelty. The video is from 2008

There are many cheap hand chargers, some good, many bad. kPower has bought many versions for testing KiteSats.

Both pull-cord and hand-crank versions make nice little AWES.


On Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:18 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11669 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Journalist muses over Makani Power again ..

Mike Barnard, journalist online comments again in February 2014 on Makani Power:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11670 From: dougselsam Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Does it ever occur to you that you spend more time analyzing and critiquing choices of words, discussing who offended whom and when and how,  Seems like an ongoing theme is how rude you are.  It's hard to believe something like half of the messages on here are about nothing but crap.  Yellow journalism?  Sorry to Pierre - I thought that term smelled like more Dave S. nonsense.  I think I spend way too much time here.  I'm not seeing much value in it anymore.  It's like a Monty Python skit "Id' like an argument please!"  "No you wouldn't!"  "I'd like to be insulted, and thanks ahead of time!" talking smack about talking smack.  Still nobody able to accomplish meaningful or useful AWE.  gosh if one spent 1/2 hour a day on here, that's 175 hours a year, summing to more than 4 work weeks, or exceeding an entire month of 40-hour workweeks, just for the privelege of either giving away all of one's secret methods for free, and/or being endlessly insulted by Dave S. if you dare to express your true opinions of what is going on.  When you step back and look at the whole thing in that light, geez what am I doing here?  Is this supposed to be entertaining?  It's more often just irritating and a toxic way to start the day.  So I am going to try and back off from posting so much.  The problem starts when I even check the list out of curiosity, just to see inf anyone has gotten a clue yet, or if they are all still in NASA-mode, reeling kites in-and-out in utter awe and dismay that they've actually automated a kite-reel.  The only light I've seen is Roddy who is at least thinking in the right direction, though pretty wet behind the ears.  So, like an alcoholic celebrating a future month of sobriety with just one more toast, I am trying to pry myself away from this list by typing one more post.  (sigh).  I would love it if there really were a group interested in airborne wind energy that was anything more than a bunch of hype with no progress to match.  Then again, the failure of most is an open door to the rest.  Sometimes, 90% of the secret of success is just showing up.  This does not seem to be the case in AWE, although maybe "just showing up" involves actually SHOWING up and DOING it rather than just blogging away.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11671 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Barnard continues Makani Critique on Clean Technica
Makani's AWES architecture is so faulty even Mike Barnard is able to poke big holes. Its not worth listing all the obvious technical errors Mike makes, but one rankles: He has taken to calling Makani's pitiful response to the FAA AWES call for comments a TACO (Tethered Aviation ConOps). There is still only one "excellent"* TACO; KiteLab Group's.

Perhaps being slammed in Clean Technica will wake up Google management to its looming AWE debacle. The face-saving option for Google continues to be to diversify its AWE holdings to include real R&D leaders in serious comparative testing. They have the money, if not the "right-stuff" brains.

* as Mike fairly described it.


On Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:00 AM, Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply@google.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11672 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pole Kiting, one avenue for AWES
Mount a video camera on the pole. Swirl the pole at a certain rotational speed. Have a tethered wing anchored to the tip of the pole. Be as person a holder of the pole base. In calm air, put the pole rotating in a plane parallel with the ambient ground, say the ground is near level. Fly the tethered wing; mount various flygens on the wing or on the tether. Study the tether angle, wind speed, and electricity generated.  Log the experiments. Make changes. Rotate again. Snap some photos. Etc. Wind speed may be measured with an instrument or calculated from rotational speed and radial arm to the wing and/or mounted turbine. Wind speed may vary relative to how fast one rotates the pole. One need not wait for ambient winds to do hundreds of experiments. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11673 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
The AWES Forum can only be used to share knowledge: Its not action, nor does it block action. If Doug cannot appreciate our geek knowledge-culture of reviewing AWE comprehensively, he should lay-low, and let professor-friendly folks have their discussions.

The AWES Forum, in my view, has been a fantastic source of vital knowledge, and the ultimate success of AWE will be seen to have emerged from actionable ideas we developed here.

Lets move the topics back to technical; this flame-war about personalities should end.




On Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:25 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11674 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Ragheb includes some AWES
Wind Energy Converter Concepts              <<==PDF file linked.
M. Ragheb
February 12, 2014
=========================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11675 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
If the question is how best to handle peak loads on the ground (cheapest, strongest) then the answer is to avoid elevated tracks and just use surface anchor-points or tracks.

Elevated tracks hardly seem economic just to allow cows and tractors easy access to the center. "L" trains only pay in dense urban centers or to cross rivers, etc.. Anchor points and surface tracks still allow crossing into the center with minimal caution. Cattle can be handled by flexible minimalist means, like electric fences, to keep them out of harm's way.

It makes sense to first see if the anchor-point circle method fails by some critical defect before more complex and capital intensive means are embraced (no problem yet at kFarm). A designer who adds cost and complication unnecessarily will end up with a bloated design. "Tornados" flown from elevated circle-tracks seem like double excess-complexity, if simpler WECS designs suffice. The elegance of a Mothra should extend to its WECS and anchoring system, until more complex options are proven better.



On Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:13 AM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11676 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
Cows and other farm vehicles might have underpasses for central-area access. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11677 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Several AWES matters in Davidson Technology, Ltd. text
Several AWES matters in Davidson Technology patent-application text: 
Select from the text points that seem worth discussing. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11678 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Gyrokite as self-powered airborne platform for electronics systems
Steven J. Elder

Publication numberUS20110186687 A1
Publication typeApplication
Application numberUS 12/696,389
Publication dateAug 4, 2011
Filing dateJan 29, 2010
Priority dateJan 29, 2010
InventorsSteven J. Elder
Original AssigneeRaytheon Company
Export CitationBiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (11), Referenced by (5), Classifications (4),Legal Events (1)

External Links: USPTO, USPTO Assignment, Espacenet
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11679 From: Rod Read Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap
Thanks Carl.
Pierre, Here's a drawing for you ... and anyone else interested http://youtu.be/6eG_bL1_9zA


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11680 From: Rod Read Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
I agree.
For current test funding practicability levels the kitelab kpower ground belay methods are best where a large kite has weather cocking, spread anchor and continuous shock load handling needs..

Still want a good drawn / annotated photographic / video description of them though ...please. PLEASE.

We discussed need for retention of land access in previous posts; hence the raised solution drawing.
Please also improve it.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11681 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Chinese finger trap
Attachments :

    Rod,

     

    I join a rough mean to make torsion tests for some variants in tethered SuperTurbine(R). You hold the motor by its axis, trying to make rotations with your hand (it is not difficult), then try to make rotation by holding the green blades (it is much more difficult, and the 4 external tension lines make a noddle if the tension is not huge). This device can be improved by placing a steelyard under the motor (which can be replaced by a swivelling tray), then seeing the ratio tension/torque.

    My first impression is ST with external lines does not work correctly and difficulties increases with wind gradient and various directions of wind.Little differences being enough to prevent rotation, at less some complex devices such automated piloting by bridle (soft wings) or pitch variations (blades) are needed. Launching and landing look difficult but not impossible.

    The socket variant with internal finger seems to be an intermediate possibility between tension axis and tension external lines. I think you can test it with the joined device by meeting the four lines, imagining only one rotor.

     

    PierreB


    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11682 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/21/2014
    Subject: Needed informations about tethered ST
    DougS,
     
    Please can you provide some informations about

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFXg0HYSU8  :

    -wind speed
    -torque
    -power in generator
    -number of rotors, diameter, space between rotors.
    -rpm
    -pilot-kite: area, traction...
     
    The axial force is needed to stretch out the flexible tether allowing rotation but in the same time a major part of energy is loss by its high level instead of tangential force (torque) .On the video angular speed does not seem to be high. So my idea is with only one rotor close to the generator the power will be roughly the same.In all cases needed informations will allow Rod to study (im?)possible better configurations.
     
    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11683 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/21/2014
    Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)
    Notice of change of folder because of typo on folder naming. 
    NEW FOLDER: 

    We hope to reach a deep report on all her tether dynamics explorations. 
    Anyone in contact with her at Cambridge University, UK?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11684 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/21/2014
    Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11685 From: dave santos Date: 2/21/2014
    Subject: Re: Gyrokite as self-powered airborne platform for electronics syste
    This seems to mark Raytheon's first entry into AWE in the KiteSat app space, with an autogyro flygen AWES. Raytheon is one more military-industrial player seeking a share of AWE patent IP monopoly, but facing the mountain of prior art we have worked hard to document (and create), and facing eventual public awareness of the huge AWE ethical challenges.

    To newcomers: A deep divide exists in early AWE R&D over the ethics of allowing military-industrial domination to take root, without even any debate allowed at AWEC conferences (ethics topics blocked by organizers). The counter-effort is open-AWE with open-ethics discussion, an AWE Military Moratorium push, and AWE proposed as a peaceful social commons shared by all. Wayne German is the original military-AWE dissenter, from his Christian perspective, for over a decade warning about neglect of this ethical aspect of AWE. In the Raytheon case, such a device could easily end up as a totalitarian technology sold at a profit to client states, without regard to loss of civil liberties.


    On Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:16 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com