Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES11582to11633 Page 128 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11582 From: Rod Read Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Step-Tow Ground Control-Actuation (for kite-farm cascade-lunch)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11583 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Superturbine Mothra Mash up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11584 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11585 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11586 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Superturbine Mothra Mash up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11587 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11588 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11589 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11590 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11591 From: benhaiemp Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11592 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: The Rise of Small AWES from within the Legacy Kite Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11593 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: The Great AWES FlyOff Nears... (Update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11594 From: dougselsam Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: WECS Curtains of Tiny HAWT FlyGens under Mothras (update and rev

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11595 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: The Great AWES FlyOff Nears... (Update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11596 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11597 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11598 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11599 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11600 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11601 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent app

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11602 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11603 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11604 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track [2 Attachments]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11605 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Ethics of AWE Investor Relations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11606 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11607 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Converting Active-Control AWES to Passive-Control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11608 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11609 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11610 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Zhao

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11611 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Yongping, Li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11612 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11613 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum [1 Attachment] - the right sequenc

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11614 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11615 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11616 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11617 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: funding call advise and help sought

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11618 From: Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Wind Data High Altitudes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11619 From: Daniele Spagli Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11620 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11621 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11622 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11623 From: andres.fdez Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Kite Energy Case Study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11624 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11625 From: Harry Valentine Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11626 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Data High Altitudes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11627 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11628 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Untethered AWE: Dr.Gabor Dobos's project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11629 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11631 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11633 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11582 From: Rod Read Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Step-Tow Ground Control-Actuation (for kite-farm cascade-lunch)
We'd need to change the colour scheme to look less like a flying bra and pants... Too many distracted driver crashes

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11583 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Superturbine Mothra Mash up
Joe,

A tensioned driveshaft still cannot scale like rope-driving. At best the drive-shaft is a short-distance solution.

The problem with depending on extra upward tension to allow use of a lighter drive-shaft is that more "parasitic lift" is needed for extra tension. Lift is the most precious force to an AWES, so this is a serious trade, even with Mothra monster-lift. The vulnerability remains to a single catastrophic failure* by a transient over-torque, say by a common turbulent slacking in the lift. Not just rigid tubes are vulnerable; even simple rope-hockling causes severe damage.

Even if the power trade was even (its not), there are still all the other unresolved defects of the ST, like semi-vertical rotor axis to avoid shadowing, the need for hinged blades for a proper autogyro rotor (which Doug omits), negative-lift and high-drag of a downwind-tilted tube, etc. ST variants with a string cage, instead of a tube, look very tricky to fly, to a kiter's eye.

Of course the ST is not written off. Testing is worthwhile to settle the current debate resoundingly. Advanced still-unknown methods of drive-shaft active-control might someday emerge, and then the pairing with a Mothra could be duly reconsidered.

RAD implies we not be swayed by mere promotional hard-sell, but use best-physics, domain-expertise, and test-results as our standards,

daveS

* Failure of a more expensive, fragile, and massive driveshaft than far-superior rope-driving. Ironically, AlexB's calculations of the power of UHMWPE ropedriving avenges him for Doug's recent "Professor Crackpot" smear.


On Friday, February 14, 2014 9:02 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11584 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Rod,

Sorry for inadvertent offence to you, but please be specific about wrongful comments, or live with the hypocrisy of letting vague innuendo stand as your own level "poor argument"*. 

What exactly are my "poor arguments", especially the technical or ethical ones? In fairness, they might be made-good by added evidence and logic. Technical critique must be precise, and ethical critique must have clarity, be to be properly actionable.

I would prefer to "shrug off" this topic, but since JohnO wanted it, I am in. Allow me to continue to respond to specific lopsided arguments posed by Doug and Pierre, whenever they are posed, unless you make a better case about why they should not be challenged so,

daveS


* Since you raise the issue, you also give me (minor) social offence, and its easy to be precise just where: I am (slightly) offended by your trite Doug-dave "get a room" joking, and other empty chat on technical topics, like this latest post:

"We'd need to change the colour scheme to look less like a flying bra and pants... Too many distracted driver crashes  Rod Read"

Make any needed corrections, rather than be told to just "shrug". Your own "poor technical arguments", (like for a Mothra-ST mash-up exactly as shown) cause no offence at all, under engineering brainstorming norms.




On Sunday, February 16, 2014 1:35 PM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11585 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

DaveS,

 

"Technical critique must be precise, and ethical critique must have clarity, be to be properly actionable." Concerning technical critique apply this proposal to yourself instead personal attacks _ for what (personal attacks) JoeF blames DougS with your agreement _ . This forum is about AWE, not about ethics, but ethics is contained or not in the words. You (not DougS) critic some teams for both technical weakness and war purpose: be quiet,the Ministry of Defence should not be interested in weak projects .Morever you are badly placed to give lessons of ethics by practising the yellow journalism, deforming the words of those who dare to criticize Mothra-As-The-Winner-By-Definition (MATWBD), giving false informations to decrease your opponents. Details on that are numerous on precedent posts and have been numerous times mentioned again.So stop "lessons" about Ethics and describe the flapping conversion system of MATWBD.

 

PierreB






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11586 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Superturbine Mothra Mash up
The drive-shafts don't have to scale. That's the beauty of arrays.
As long as we can consistently tap and combine their short set multi blade collecting power...
We could (with the right pulley & blade configuration) Take the power through a driven loadpath rope loop from the pulleys and blades.
It does start to look a bit part count heavy though.
If each ST termination has a cowled pulley, cross set in groups...
OK keeping the relative distances between ST terminations is not easy without weight implication and
Driving an elasticated shock rope to cope with this would have it's disadvantages ...

Now instead of applying arrays to ST's
consider the benefits of arrayed Single Skin kite stacks... Collected power hauling ground devices... ace but
Synchrony of ground plane array steering mechanisms could be possible... but MAY be bulky and prone to single point failure.. probably better to be computer steered individually.
Synchrony of stack steering depends on localised weather and again is probably best done with computers.

Can we start nominating the most pressing research topics & scheme tests?

If I design tornados blades as a constant.... They're my scheme choice.
As for topic... tough but I'd ask you all to take a preliminary 3d course of rhino and grasshopper first.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11587 From: Rod Read Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Apologies if the words bra and pants offended anyone (especially those of a strongly male characteristic mindset)
It's a valid psychological distraction though. (Especially to those in society using emotional thinking patterns.)
As is this post... Which is annoying as I'd rather design and evolve AWES as priority number 1.
I fear that trying to explain the offence, (if you can't see it already Dave S), is like trying to explain to my colour blind dad what green is.

I'm going to be led by ethics today and take the kids swimming... many an AWES lesson can be learned underwater.
Chill
and if you want personal guidance on this email me direct... we can get a room so to speak

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11588 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Pierre,

AWE ethics is an AWE topic, every bit as vital as technical topics. We even have an Ethics Professor active in AWE (Dr. Sahotra Sarkar, a noted figure in the AWE documentary), whose participation you can object to (as he ponders your curious biz model).

Allow me to try to be more precise and clear in forming ethical and technical critiques, so they are more "properly actionable" for you, just as you suggest.

It will take me some time to bring a mass of fresh material to bear. Thank you for your patience,

daveS




On Monday, February 17, 2014 12:02 AM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11589 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

DaveS,

 

As I noted it in different posts with detailed facts (please read numerous posts about them), your comportment is not ethical enough to allow you giving lessons about Ethics, but Dr.Sahotra Sarkar is of course welcomed to explain eventual ethical aspects of AWE and formulate critics about possible non-ethical use of AWE (at least when AWE will be used). By waiting it I note MikeB makes a pertinent critic about the non-possibility of land used close to AWE area, which can be considered as a step towards an ethics of safety for inhabitants. 

 

PierreB






 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11590 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
Pierre,

Thank you for conceding that ethics is a relevant AWE topic after all. You are mistaken in supposing that parties of your choice are disqualified to frame ethical problems. For example, my years of protesting AWEC's pay-to-play secretive dominance of conferences depends on the facts of the case, not your confused idea of who should be allowed to speak out.The same applies to protesting AWE militarization, or unfair business practices. The messages stand.

The most honest course for you with regard to prospective investors is to proactively advise them that you have concluded "AWE is not economically viable",. True, no investor is likely to invest in an AWE skeptic seeking funding, but you would remove the ethical issue.

Note that you are welcomed to pose all your ethics opinions freely, without regard to your own ethical problems. Its not enough for you to claim you have already framed comparable ethical problems for me to correct. You must be very specific, hold my feet to the fire, and also help propose a true ethical corrective. 

Its not a solution for you to seek others to not speak their ethical opinions, and you (and Doug) are welcomed by Forum openness to keep expressing yours, and the parties can continue to answer them. 

MikeB's use of censorship is the opposite approach, to silence critics and the topics they bring (with your presumed acceptance). The Forum remains uncensored, and a superior source of knowledge.

Rod,

My complaint about some of your postings is not about lame humor, which is tolerable, but the absence of AWE content, which only wastes time, under the RAD doctrine. You are not the only violator, nor the worst (Doug's ski reports are nominated),

daveS


On Monday, February 17, 2014 3:46 AM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11591 From: benhaiemp Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum

DaveS,

To almost every message you break the usual rules on a forum: personal attacks, repeated doubtful insinuations."You must be very specific, hold my feet to the fire, and also help propose a true ethical corrective." OK! With you it is not necessary to maintain a record of the faults, it is enough to wait, generally not for a long time:"MikeB's use of censorship is the opposite approach, to silence critics and the topics they bring (with your presumed acceptance)." Both doubtful insinuation and lie. I do not know anything about what you write about "MikeB's use...", so my "presumed acceptance" is without object, only yellow journalism. So one time more you are not qualified to give lessons on Ethics.

"Thank you for conceding that ethics is a relevant AWE topic after all." I do not concede anything: It is a forum about AWE, not about Ethics, but your attacks under the false argument of false Ethics force me to answer about ethics, being topic-off, that until a qualified person comes to speak about real ethics involved in AWE. Try to have the sense of nuance rather than to counter the arguments in a childish way...

As you assert"my presumed acceptance", what you speak ill about companies or persons not agreeing with you like MikeB can be presumed as false assertions. Unfortunately there is no moderator to prevent this sort of words, only to counter DougS of whom extravagances are 1000 times less serious and hide some thruths about wind energy.

PierreB

PS:Your arguing about my "AWE is not economically viable" is poor: I precise again that if you assert actually some AWE is economically viable, it is false (and non-ethical) since AWE is only in experiment phase to determine if it can be viable in the future into utility-scale (the good scheme is maybe not still found) ,or only into some niche. 

  


 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11592 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: The Rise of Small AWES from within the Legacy Kite Industry
By now its clear how easy it is to create a small AWES. Even children can hang a COTS micro-turbine on a COTS kite to generate kite energy. The hard problem for the "garage inventor" is to create a true product; to set up production, distribution, and marketing. kPower is addressing these challenges by planning to introduce a series of novel products from within the existing kite industry.

Our consulting Kite Industry Pros (Ron Welty, Michael Lin, Dave Gomeberg, etc) paint a stark inside picture of kite industry economics. The hobby market is saturated: there is only slow growth in total revenue that a thicket of competitors struggle to capture. The survivors are the leanest meanest manufacturers, with a few creative innovators barely scrapping by. Just as soon as a new kind of kite appears, the imitators crowd in.

The modern kite market began with mass-produced "dime-store" kites created by tinkerers that sold by the billions. Hi-Flyer and Gayla are famous instances. Today Gayla is a sort of soulless machine, still churning out the kites sold almost everywhere. In the 70s and 80s, a cultural renaissance of kite design and kitemaking occurred, and many small manufacturers emerged. Only a decade later "Chinese Pirates" had cloned the top-selling designs, flooded the market with cheap units, and most of the small companies collapsed. The exploding sport-kite sector in effect split from the core kite market into a wholly new market.

Today, a tiny circle of elite kite designers work closely with Chinese manufacturers to make amazing high-quality kites and reasonable cost. A few non-Chinese high-end manufacturers scrape by in niches like sport-kites and paragliders. Sport kites seem to be reintegrating into the core kite market, as explosive growth has leveled off.  The latest trend is for Chinese designers to (once again) emerge as true innovators, and the final results should be astounding. Still, the core market remains almost static, as a zero-sum game. The Kite Industry Trade Show has become dull, pending the next major sea-change.

The word is out at the top level of the kite industry that a whole new class of products are in the pipeline; small AWES. It is hoped that a simple kite gadgets able to charge phones and computers will expand market. Angel investors are funding the risk of initial production (ie.KiteSat). "Kite Gods" like Peter Lynn are positioning to dominate key small AWES product lines with cheap pilot-lifters and SS power kites. At the same time, a flood of wonderful new hobby and sport kite designs are poised to displace existing kites.

The cumulative result of so many new developments will be to grow total kite market revenue by many new niche markets, and once again disrupt the core kite market. Everything is up for grabs. The rise of small AWES, along with a parade of amazing new kite capabilities should usher in a Golden Age for kite users. The kite business will remain cut-throat, but with nice opportunities for the survivors. Instead of only collapses, a frenzy of mergers and acquisitions will occur, until the expanded market once again saturates and stagnates.

A big remaining question is whether the legacy kite industry will incubate utility-scale AWE, or whether big energy-tech players like GE will be able to muscle in to dominate the utility AWE market, bypassing existing small AWE players. Expect that struggle to happen in about 5-10 years, based on how well legacy kite players prepare.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11593 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: The Great AWES FlyOff Nears... (Update)

An AWE FlyOff has been proposed for at least a decade, so we are that much closer, with considerable R&D progress and growth since.

While the US DOE failed to create an open AWE evaluation process (choosing instead to exclusively subsidize Google R&D, with high secrecy), new EU H2020 funding could include an open AWE evaluation component. AWEC Pay-to-Play conference planning consistently avoided planning serious flight sessions that might disruptively reveal merit winners. Perhaps AWEC2014 will do better. None of the many stealth-ventures so far has sought open comparative testing, but a well-capitalized smart-venture might emerge.

Another option is for open-AWE, to coordinate open competition. The Texas AWE Encampment is an informal start by kPower. All are invited to bring prototypes to fly cheek-to-cheek with others (like Jalbert-Mueller's Aerology Lab SkyBow and NAV markers flying with KiteLab prototypes on an ongoing basis). The Encampment restarts in March, with intensive AWEfest rehearsals planned, so please make plans to join. Ventures can hire extended open AWES testing as well.

A n ideal AWE FlyOff entails broad participation. Even the GoogleX Makani venture might feel enough high-stakes pressure sign up and risk all in an EU hosted FlyOff. The top academic teams, like TUDelft and KULeuven, would surely show. A crisis for "prestige" players is that a motley pack of garage-starts might well dominate. Despite the causes of inaction, the FlyOff idea will not go away (see note at bottom).

Some new players are actively drafting rigorous AWE FlyOff protocols for H2020 funding to players like Fraunhofer, and the general AWE R&D world. The actual FlyOff is almost a side-show to the other key validation aspects, like integrated simulations and rigorous scoring matrices. The Forum has exhaustively covered many needed aspects, and data-mining this trove is underway.

A serious FlyOff process could begin within a year or two and conclude in five. The tiny clique of known AWE skeptics could be satisfied, or forever silenced.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
======= Flyoff | Define Flyoff at Dictionary.com- dictionary.reference.com/browse/flyoff‎ ========

 1) a competition between aircraft of various manufacturers to establish superior performance,
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11594 From: dougselsam Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: WECS Curtains of Tiny HAWT FlyGens under Mothras (update and rev
I agree that side-by-side arrays of more than one rotor, or of many rotors, is a neglected avenue in wind energy.  People talk about it but seldom if ever actually do it.  To me, the concept has merit.  Usually the decision to use a single larger rotor, assuming the designer even considered multiple small rotors, which never occurs to most, is based on known higher efficiencies at higher Reynolds numbers (larger scale), and the cost of adding pitch control and so many subsystems, which could get expensive and complicated, plus, people are naturally afraid to be different.  Oh, and it gets so hard to get even a single rotor to survive for the long haul, that people are mentally exhausted at that point.  There is one concept of walls of multiple rotors with mutually-interlocking gears on the rims.  Another huge breakthrough that was scheduled to change the world (checks watch) any second now.  I think it was the good professor who came up with that one.  What a busy guy!  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11595 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: The Great AWES FlyOff Nears... (Update)
Is there a Mr. Kremer in the house?  Recall the history of HPA and the effects of the Kremer prizes. Academia, clubs, and individuals seemed to have been spurred into action by the prize offers. Mr. and Mrs. ___________, do you see the opportunity in the AWE direction to make a difference?
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11596 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track
[[Moderator note: The following message came in normally. I approved it normally. The program has yet to show the message, so I am posting the message. I do not know the cause of the miss, but I thank Daniele Spagli from Italy for responding about his two photographs.  ]]
=========================
From: Daniele Spagli
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@ yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11597 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track
I'm Daniele Spagli, joe invite me to explain this rendering and sketches.
Thi is only 3d work to try to imagine how can be a rail structure for a kitegen carousel to use less material... it' only a game, I'm an architect and at this time I had free time and a passion for this kind of energy. :-)
I see the 3d work in this thread and it seems quite good, probably better than mine. Maybe the problem could be how much big is the force it can support and what happen when kites cables have a small angle between horizon, maybe they can intercept structural cable.

good work, my best whishes
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11598 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track
I'm not sure if I can give a good contribute in this thread, anyway I would like to ask if you consider the force that stress cables coneected from top of pilar to rail, because I guess they're too much near horizon direction to work in optimal way.
Sure it depend about many variables, but the optimal way to work is to have this cables more vertical, and this is a problem because that can intercept kite cables... because this I imagine to have some V pilar under the rail, it cause more cost about groundwork but it's more rigid (that mean less energy waste in deformations) and I can use less steel in cables.
Don't look about my heavy structure, it depend because it was only a game so I didn't check, and because at this time it seems carousel needed stems to control take-off, land and the variable wind strenght.

One more question, how do you think to control the trolley motions between them each other? I mean, one trolley will have a traction in wind direction and another in opposite traction about wind direction... that mean maybe you need to connect them in some way... or not?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11599 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track
Hi Daniele ,
Thanks for sharing your work.
I've drawn some quick sketchy schemes. (Your renderings are better!)
If a set of carriages are all running inside a loop track, and they are to have a set distance relationship apart, then they can all be tied together in a loop inside of the rail loop.
In my case I had decided that one or two circular pipe sections would serve as good rails. Where the pipe fixed to the tensioning sturcture it could be bound and fixed to by a cuff. As a trolley carriage comes to a cuff guiding itself over the cuff would not be a problem. the kite fix point hardly has to put any moment through the carriage.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11600 From: daniele_spagli Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: trolley track
Attachments :
    My worries is about the weight of structure, that can be sustained only between descend cables, but I guess my english is too bad to explain it. :-)
    I think 2 pictures can explain ti more easily.

    As you see in two exaples attached, only few difference in angle can make big difference in tensions of steel cables... and because this either in deformations.

    Daniele
      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11601 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent app
    [ ] Open question:
     Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent applications or patents from Joeben Bevirt, Joby Energy, or any other kite-energy patentee?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11602 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
    Pierre,

    Please be clear then- You are in fact against MikeB's censorship (?). If so please help me get my impersonal technical corrections posted.

    Regarding "AWE is not economically viable"- Are you saying that your WheelWind investment is not economically viable? Are you saying that aviation carefully using tail-winds to save fuel is not AWE? (it is surely economically viable energy savings from airborne wind).

    Thanks for making these points clear, to help correct my misimpressions of your writing,

    daveS


    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 12:20 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr" <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11603 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: [ ] Open question: Has Google [x] purchased rights to any patent
    JoeF

    This question requires analytic guess-work, since GoogleX is so opaque. Here goes:

    The 2011 Joby-Makani "merger" (details unknown) likely included a full license to Joby IP. GoogleX is so scattered, that it probably has not bothered (yet) with an AWE IP collecting strategy. Makani's small patent portfolio represents only a halfhearted IP effort. We would detect a flurry of new "kitchen-sink" filings, if a patent filing war was ordered by X.

    Its known that SaulG understood that old (expired) kite patents are so clever and numerous; and so much kite art is prior and "obvious", that the creation of new blocking patents in AWE is far-fetched. Plus, they learned (from the Forum and elsewhere) that design copyright covers (in theory) a lot. This rational view likely persists at Makani,

    daveS



    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 6:32 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11604 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: trolley track [2 Attachments]
    I think more worrying for AWE applications of giant kites is how to withstand shock combined lift and drag loads from tearing the carriage set from the track.
    I started using parametric designs (grasshopper on rhino) for my model so with some skillfull dynamic analysis (kangaroo plugin) , and a recursive tweaking algorithm (hoopsnake plugin) can adjust the pole heights, dropper line numbers, link catenary thicknesses etc to be an optimal
    If you want to tweak my models just let me know.


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11605 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Ethics of AWE Investor Relations
    AWE investor relations are subject to the same laws and ethics standards of any other business. There is no exemption based on the novelty of the field.

    In the US, the SEC regulates large scale public investment by well-established legal and ethical principles. In AWE, private investment dominates (even though some publicly traded companies are active). The following NIR Code-of-Ethics is used worldwide, and is consistent with SEC legal norms for "duty to investors", and serves us in AWE as a ready model to apply as we promote our investments to investors.

    Two current investor relations ethics questions in AWE circles:

    1) Are investor relations ethics a material issue in AWE yet, worthy of serious Forum discussion?

    2) Should an AWE promoter disclose to prospective investors, as "important information", the promoter's (possibly mistaken) opinion that "AWE is not economically viable"?

    I think the answer is "Yes" both questions, based on NIR and SEC models. 

    Here is the NIR Code-

    As a regular member of the National Investor Relations Institute, I will:
    1.  Maintain my integrity and credibility by practicing investor relations in accordance with the highest legal and ethical standards.
    2.  Avoid even the appearance of professional impropriety in the conduct of my investor relations responsibilities.
    3.  Recognize that the integrity of the capital markets is based on transparency of credible financial and non-financial corporate information, and will to the best of my ability and knowledge work to ensure that my company or client fully and fairly discloses this important information.
    4.  Provide analysts, institutional and individual investors and the media fair access to corporate information.
    5.  Honor my obligation to serve the interest of shareholders and other stakeholders.
    6.  Discharge my responsibilities completely and competently by keeping myself abreast of the affairs of my company or client as well as the laws and regulations affecting the practice of investor relations.
    7.  Maintain the confidentiality of information acquired in the course of my work for my company or client company.
    8.  Not use confidential information acquired in the course of my work for my personal advantage nor for the advantage of related parties.
    9.  Exercise independent professional judgment in the conduct of my duties and responsibilities on behalf of my company or client.
    10.  Avoid any professional/business relationships that might affect, or be perceived to potentially affect, my ethical practice of investor relations.
    11.  Report to appropriate company authorities if I suspect or recognize fraudulent or illegal acts within the company.
    12.  Represent myself in a reputable and dignified manner that reflects the professional stature of investor relations.
    Enforcement and Communication of the NIRI Code of Ethics
    NIRI urges compliance with its Code of Ethics by positively communicating the ideals of professional ethics and practice rather than through negative sanctions. However, members of NIRI who are sanctioned by an appropriate governmental agency or judicial body for violating laws or regulations affecting their professional activities may, upon recommendation of the NIRI Ethics Council, have their membership terminated by the NIRI Board of Directors following procedures in the institute's bylaws.
    Revised 3/11/02; Reaffirmed 1/8/10
    © 2014 National Investor Relations Institute. All Rights Reserved. 225 Reinekers Lane, Suite 5


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11606 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

    On one post Mike D.Moore's position against MikeB (and published by MikeB on his blog) is praised. On another post one speaks ill about "MikeB's censorship". So the author of both two messages is thus necessarily a liar, aggraving his case by mentioning "my presumed acceptation" of proved false "MikeB's censorship", still aggraving his case by trying to give lessons of Ethics, being only a yellow journalist.

    I will be clear once and for all: all the malicious gossip of this author is presumed to be false, and all schemes of this athor are presumed to be non viable economically.

     

    PierreB
     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11607 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Converting Active-Control AWES to Passive-Control
    Most AWE developers have long insisted that autonomous flight-control is critical to AWE. Many wrongly presumed that the one worthwhile option is complex computer-based flight-control with elaborate multi-sensing and electro-mechanical actuation*. Several ambitious prototypes therefore emerged based on active-control. We also count active human piloting as active-control.

    To take one specific example of conversion to passive control, Pierre's wonderful little FlyGen could dispense with active human control by adding a pilot lifter and two swivels, including a rotating contact. The AWES would then fly more-or-less indefinitely, as long as wind conditions hold. Such a conversion might make a hit product from a failure.

    In every case of active-control AWES, the basic wing, tether, and power transmission can be converted to passive-control methods, often by just adding a kite tail, pilot-lifter, and/or rigging simple feedback mechanisms. It would be interesting to test all these AWES in both modes over extended periods, to remove doubts about active v. passive control.

    The standing KiteLab view is that passive-control AWES is the superior early path (highest TRL), with active-controls overlaid as they continue to improve. Over time the tails might disappear, just as a few tailless aircraft have emerged (like the B-2 bomber), and then active-control AWES can be the mainstream. The trend lines persistently suggest a decade or two before active-automation hopefully meets life-cycle demands. No AWE team can move critical reliability of current active components much faster than the glacial progress of the overall UAS industry.


    * In fact, classic kite passive flight-automation based on inherent flight stability is cheap, simple, and robust COTS. Its well-validated to operate as long as wind holds, far longer than any active-control AWES record. A related advantage is life-cycle endurance, where kite passive-control functions for thousands of hours, while active-control barely even has 500hr rated servos. Crashworthiness is also unique to kite passive-control. Further advantages were discussed in previous Forum messages.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11608 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
    Rod wrote: "worrying for AWE applications of giant kites is how to withstand shock combined lift and drag loads..."

    Classic kiting long ago perfected simple and effective methods for taming peak gust loads within safe load-limits*. The simplest is for the kite to reduce its AoA by pitching on a suitably designed bridle-point. The trick to extend this effect is to create elastic aft-bridling that gives away even more smartly to gusts. Another set of methods passively furls sail area. Elastic tethers also help. A final expedient is to add weak-links that break before the load-limit, "killing" the kite even, to avoid greater damage.

    These methods can be combined as needed, for even more effectiveness and redundancy. Modern engineering practice can improve on the ad-hoc tuning methods of old.

    In conclusion: Giant kites designed with these features, and flown carefully according to forecast conditions, will easily withstand severe gust loads while flying quite close to load-limits, for maximum performance.


    * From late Kite Golden Age German meteorology kites to Richard Synergy's Kite Altitude World Record attempts.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11609 From: Rod Read Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
    Yeah,
    It was about the ground loop design though.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11610 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Zhao

    ZHAO
    LIANZHEN ZHAO     [uncertain machine translation]

    [[ [ ] Request translation of patent to English from anyone. Thanks.  ]]


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11611 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: Yongping, Li
      Image is not linked. We do not have yet the "manual" viewer for the SIPO site. But this drawing from the patent indicates the elements of a kite-driven carousel ready to do work at the hub. Think KiteGen carousel. The drawing here by Yongping shows four branches in the kite tree with leaves of one wing controlled each by a control unit. 
    ===========================================
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11612 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum


    Gentlemen,

    Some months ago I was the most frequent addressee of Doug's posts to "Professor Crackpot", therefore I am also interested in Doug and Dave's debate. Sadly, I don't have enough time to comment on all the wrong statements of Doug, and I probably will not have enough time in the future either. But I would now like to share some thoughts about our two professors. Two? Yes, we have two professors, namely the good old Professor Crackpot, and the not any younger Professor Ignorance, who successfully saved his incognito until now.

    Well, at first I have to say that I highly appreciate Doug's efforts against wrong or faulty ideas, wrong opinions and bad argumentation. I was not the correrct choice as a target. I can understand his motivations, since I have similar emotions against pseudoscience and ideas that violate the laws of nature. Both approaches (Doug's and mine) are needed against the stupidity that one can meet every day and everywhere.

    I agree with Pierre when saying that mixing personal attacks into a debate about technical issues is not an acceptable way of discussing technical questions. Just an example: Doug's playing with my name Gabor (Dobos) and with Gabor (Zsa Zsa) as well as flouting my homeland is dissonant, and do not serve the noble aims that I assume we both follow. I thought that this dissonance was only a small detour, and was not important. (Hmm... Doug, if you want, I confess that the word play with the names was humorous, I too laughed at it. But the nose monologue of Cyrano de Bergerac in the play by Edmond Rostand occurs to me when a remark was made on his large nose: "for such jesting is a privilege I only grant myself". That is, I may laugh at it, but you may NOT, only after me. But also, in this case you are neither authorized to mention this jest again nor to laugh at it again.) Consider that not everybody is as forgiving as me, especially if your statements regarding technical questions are wrong. You ought to be much more careful.

    As I said, I tend to consider the above problem a sad detour with little significance. The real problem is that Doug has stood SEVERAL TIMES on the wrong side in the debate against Professoor Crackpot, because of his lack of knowledge about the topic of the given issue. Professor Ignorance (this is you Doug, in several cases) is not the credible person to fight against Professor Crackpot. I don't know what you are by profession, Doug, but not only your statements but your questions alone are enough proof that physical chemistry and thermodynamics don't belong to your expertise. You were so productive in producing wrong statements in respect to these sciences and especially to liquid air and its energetic applications that I simply did not have enough time to correct them AND EDUCATE YOU. This forum is not the right place to hold lessons for you.  
    • Doug: I'd have to say if such a simple solution was promising,  we'd have heard about it more
    • DG: NO, my dear friend! There are endless number of Professor Ignorances, starting with you, who know nothing about the topic but vindicate their right to bla-bla-bla about it, and to name those who disagree with you or dare to criticize your "opinion" a dishonest name like Professor Crackpot. I put the word "opinion" in apostrophes because this is not a question of opinion, but a question of facts. Since you have confessed that you don't know the facts, your statement is your "opinion", or rat

      Just to show what I am talking about, let's see a typical post from you, with my comments (signed by "DG"), step by step:

    • Doug: Yeah that sounds like a real robust technology. Must have a lot of promise.
    • DG: I agree. (The thing is Marchetti's paper about transporting and storing energy in the form of liquid air, summarizing the theoretical backgrounds that are valid even toay, though  it is an old paper, may be one of the first publications on the topic. I have cited it to signal the beginnings of the topic, and show the right way by Marchetti's original argumentation.
    • Doug: Without knowing more,
    • DG: Yes, it is your key sentence, and your key problem. Namely, without knowing more, you are going to criticize something. This is a typical Professor Ignorance-like behavior. That's you, Doug!
    • her I would call it your blabla.
    • Doug: there would be more papers besides this one.
    • DG: yes, there are, - though you don't know about them. Thanks to JoeF, the members of this forum have gotten a good insight into the literature of the topic. Sadly, your later posts show that you failed to examine this valuable resource, but not to screw with those who don't agree with you. Your ignorance ought to be your problem Doug, alias Professor Ignorance, and not of those who possess the needed knowledge. Sadly, in an open forum this is not the case. It is also a problem of those who you have undeservedly awarded with the name of Professor Crackpot.
    • Doug: Smells like Professor  Crackpot to me.
    • DG: Smells like Proessor Ignorance to me.
    • Doug: I don't know what problems it may  have, but,
    • DG: ...but you call me Professor Crackpot instead of researching the literature (or asking someone who knows it, and tends to give you lessons despite your obvious malice). By the way, everything has its benefits and drawbacks. An expert knows the answer to your question. It is his job to apply a technology advantageously.
    • Doug:  being so simple, it apparently must have  some problems, or
    • DG: Of cource it has! Cryogenics is a rush developing topic and the subject of large research projects. But airplane design, wind turbines, vehicles, electric motors, and  so on are also researched even currently. Returning to your post, sometimes it is a problem for you if things are simple. Other times, complexity (e.g.: my IFO) is the problem. (Though not my IFO is complicated but the reality is complex.) One can decide to deal with only a small and simple section of reality. That is a method of science, called modeling. But reality is more complex in most cases. You obviously are seeking the opportunity to pick on somebody.
    • Doug: people would be using it by now, no?
    • DG: NO! Cryogenics doesn't belong to the usual every day's technical culture.  People are afraid of new things, and from a particular point of view they are right. The breakthrough usually happens not by deciding to accept it. In most cases, paradigm shift needs a new generation.
    As I said, it is an individual case to analyze one of your posts in detail. I simply don't have enough time to do so in every case. But you know and I know what kind of ethical problems I am speaking about. You ought to be more careful in the role of "Saint John the baptist". You have to accept that Professor Ignorance is not the authentic person to call others as Professor Crackpot.

    All the best,

    Gabor
    (the Dobos and not the Zsa Zsa)




    This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.



    On 2014-02-17 09:02, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11613 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum [1 Attachment] - the right sequenc
    HI Everybody,

    In my previos post below,  the devil of the net (and I) has mixed the sequence of some lines. I have corrected it below.
    Forgive me please the inconvenience.
    Thanks,
    Gabor


    Just to show what I am talking about, let's see a typical post from you, with my comments (signed by "DG"), step by step:

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11614 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum [1 Attachment]
    Dear Gabor,

    The problem, in English, is that "Professor" is a formal academic title of high honor. So to speak of "Professor Ignorance", as a counter to "Professor Crackpot", does not solve the problem that our many wonderful Professor friends will hardly participate on the Forum without friendly respect to their merit office. Of course, all crackpots are ignorant, and Doug could simply switch his usage to "Professor Ignorance", with your help. A better choice is to designate a "King Crackpot" beyond "Professor Crackpot", since there are no kings to unfairly impugn. 

    Do not be fooled into complimenting Doug's terribly superficial "efforts against wrong or faulty ideas", which are almost never properly relevant to AWE (for lack of core kite and aerospace science). He is not on balance helpful to counter false information, as the top Forum source of wholly irrelevant misinformation (ie. that Columbus found no bow and arrow in America, anti climate science incitements, etc.). His incredible insults against fellow wind developers are best understood as deflecting attention from his own excessive claims for his pet wind scheme.

    It is known that Doug began, but did not complete, an engineering degree program, but this is not a proper basis to question anyone's views (inverse appeal-to-authority logical fallacy).

    Cheers,

    daveS


    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 6:32 PM, Gabor Dobos <dobosg001@yahoo.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11615 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
    Pierre,

    You are confused about the actual facts, as the record shows.

    The censorship in question was always MikeB's blocking of my bland technical corrections. Its a gross misrepresentation of MikeB's to claim MarkM was ever meant. In fact, I posted that MikeB did not dare censor "NASA". MikeB was finally forced to publicly confess the censoring was aimed at me (as well as many others, before). I presumed you approved of MikeB's censorship habit, because you are his top AWE commenter, but never once protested. I would have protested the same if it was you, and not me, censored; so it seemed as if you simply did not care if my technical corrections were blocked. If I presumed wrong, please clarify.

    As for the AWE Ethics Lessons, our current standard is to refer to professional codes like NIR and GSA, and our consulting ethics expert, Professor Sarkar. Lets agree these sources are not "AWE Yellow Journalism" (which only really seems to apply to MikeB). Please recognize that my full-time work, for some years now, is to design and test AWES, and its already "economically viable" to me, as a modest living in pioneering engineering-science, based on my life-long domain experience. Rely on me to help settle technical kiting questions, and on ethics experts and sources for best judging AWE ethics questions.

    Pray you are mistaken about AWE not being economically viable (after large-scale testing is completed), since Earth really needs bountiful upper wind energy to replace nukes and oil. Poorly supported pessimism does not help. If only you would rebut the Springer AWE book on viability, point by point, at the same standard of learning, others besides just MikeB might agree with you,

    daveS


    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:14 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11616 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?

    DaveS,

     

    I presume your assertions to be false, in the same manner you invoque "my presumed acceptance" about false MikeB's censorship.

     

    PierreB



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11617 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: funding call advise and help sought
    I'm trying to form a team to access EU H2020 funding.

    Considering a large programme scope with independent academics providing test and modelling information for a scoring matrix to help define the niche market for each teams AWE scheme. This will also help to determine down select choices for utility generation AWE.

    We need teams willing to commit to measure and score the implication of scale against LCOE against CO2 equivalent implications against societal benefit etc.

    In order to fully realise this I'm going to need help writing proposals, releasing an executive summary targeted to H2020 calls, communicating, coordinating etc...
    Please reply and indicate your willingness to assist with this programme.
    Please share this note with those whom you think may want to join or contribute.

    I forwarded a wrong link recently....
    Our most closely targeted calls will probably be ...
    http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/portal/desktop/en/opportunities/h2020/topics/1122-lce-01-2014.html#tab1 Topic: New knowledge and technologies
    and
    http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/portal/desktop/en/opportunities/h2020/topics/1127-lce-03-2014.html 3. Wind energy: Demonstrating and testing of new nacelle and rotor prototypes - There is a need for demonstration and testing of new nacelle and rotor prototypes with a significant lower mass and material intensity and applicable to several types of large-scale wind turbines.

    Do you have a history of proposal writing.... You're better than I am already then, please help out.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11618 From: Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Wind Data High Altitudes

    I am currently doing a case study on Kite Energy and I need Wind data over 150m.

    Is there anyone who can provide the data so that I can then create a model

     

    Thanks

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11619 From: Daniele Spagli Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: trolley track
    Thanks Rod, but I don't think to have the right skills to do it. :-)

    I only want to try to understand better your work, and to explain because I didn't choose the external pole solution in my "game", but the V pillar... anyway was a not verified solution and either I wonder and I'm happy that we came at a very similar solution about this problem.

    My best whishes for this work.

    Daniele


    2014-02-18 21:39 GMT+01:00 Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com



    --
    Daniele Spagli Architetto
    cell. 327 3688438

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11620 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
    Pierre,

    Again, was I wrong in my presumption, and you really are against Mike Barnard's habit of journalistic censorship? Remember, its his own admission, as well as the previous complaints others have made about his use of censorship.

    So now you claim to automatically presume all of my statements to be false (including this one). How absurd: For example, if I assert that France is a great country, and you can be proud to be French; you blindly presume the opposite. The WheelWind deserves to be tested, to prove me wrong about a presumed critical defect (of poorly supported tangential force transfer); but you force yourself to presume otherwise.

    You are surely not an idiot, no matter what you presume.

    Touche :)

    daveS


    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:45 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11621 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
    If your worry was only about your elaborate ground tackle handling surge loads, in the willful absence of the cheap and effective means I listed, then simply beef it up at added capital-cost.




    On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:52 PM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11622 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
    If you think you can have an idea that works, and that Mike Barnard, or Paul Gipe, or anyone else, can hold it back through "debate" or some bizarre form of imagined internet "censorship" then you really do not understand the challenge.  It is not a battle of words.  It is a battle of wits first, and then a battle of perseverance and rolling up sleeves to actually DO things.  The adversary/ally is the wind itself, not the people dumb enough (like me) to waste their otherwise productive time arguing on the internet about it.  By this time I am arguing on the internet about arguing on the internet.  Reminds me of that public service announcement trying to get people out into the forest "Look, someone made a comment on my comment!"  Whoopee-do.  A comment on my comment.  What if we had a rule that the only postings allowed here were to share output data? (crickets...)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11623 From: andres.fdez Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Kite Energy Case Study

    Need wind data at high altitudes in order to do a model (excel..)

    Can anyone tell me where?

    Thanks

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11624 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11625 From: Harry Valentine Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Kite Energy Case Study
    Hello Andrez,


    I have a text book, PHYSICAL GEOGRAPHY by Arthur N. Strahler that includes a chapter on the atmosphere . . . . provides graphs with change in air pressure and air temperature relative to elevation.


    Harry


    From: andres.fdez@yahoo.com
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 07:02:30 -0800
    Subject: [AWES] Kite Energy Case Study

     

    Need wind data at high altitudes in order to do a model (excel..)
    Can anyone tell me where?
    Thanks

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11626 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Wind Data High Altitudes
    Hi,

    there are several public databases containing meteorological data measured by meteorological stations all over the world. You can find a very useful collection on the following link:
    http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html
    The only problem is that only the data of one month can be downloaded at once. We have written a small program that is capable of downloading as much data as needed.  It was several years ago, therefore I am not sure whether I can find the program, but that's probably no problem for you.

    By the way, I am very glad  to get to know somebody who is going to calculate something using wind data. I have proposed several times in this group to make a joint calculation in order to compare the capabilities of several devices that are being developed currently to harness the energy of high altitude winds. Nobody accepted my proposition. Maybe,  "real wind energy people"  prefer tinkering instead of the theory...

    If you have any questions please don't hesitate to write to me privately.
                                                                                          
    Best regards,

    Gabor




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11627 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
    DaveS,
     
    I presume your assertions to be false, in the same manner you invoque "my presumed acceptance" about false MikeB's censorship.
     
    PierreB





    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11628 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Untethered AWE: Dr.Gabor Dobos's project

    Dr.Gabor Dobos,

     

    For me untethered AWE appears as a way towards autonomous aviation like on

    1.    http://www.solarimpulse.com/  ,as a complement in wind energy. Providing energy towards grid via batteries looks difficult because of heavy infrastructure but untethered AWE can become a new aviation with a possible new economic plan: alternating leisure by charging batteries,and transport.

            

             PierreB

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11629 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Taming Peak Loads within Load-Limits
    Yep ,
    and I'm all for using the proven good ol recommended kite-side methods you listed too.
    Thanks

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11631 From: Rod Read Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: DaveS and DougS on Open Forum
    How many people do you reckon read that post Doug S?
    I didn't.
    I didn't need to skim read far before glazing over and sighing.
    What do you want from the AWE forum? A shiny medal? A crown? Someone to do your work for you? Stacks of cash?

    You claim not to believe in global warming but were still motivated to design a what? Weird dude.

    Possible alternate Doug life suggestion: Go and invent a ski that attaches to the end of your nose. In any downhill race, even against Pincchio, you're gonna win.

    Write a book or something.

    At least repay the world with the energy it would have taken for the computers of the full forum list to read these posts.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11633 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2014
    Subject: Re: Is a yellow journalist qualified to give lessons in Ethics?
    Spend all day talking about "yellow journalism", "straw-man arguments", "censorship" -  a bunch of Dave S.- type crap.  What a ridiculous and lame conversation.  Go back to sleep.