DaveS,

"Other recent demos include pumping air and hydraulic fluid, but you must have missed them. 

Hi Joe,

The machine I show is only a kite piloted according to a small radius,making a small loop like a rotation. It is not an AWES since in the state it does not generate any form of energy, electricity or another. I do not agree the new definition like all kites are AWES. I explain it by the non-possibility for Mothra and other DaveS' realizations to become real AWES generating some energy used for all you want: by a "wider" definition of AWES, both all things and nothing are AWES.

So I repeat the machine I show generates some force but no energy for the actual step. An Airborne Wind Energy System being not able to generate some energy is a non-sense.

PierreB    

Pierre, 

        Not sure of the next step on this. The retort presented denies a fact: "but no energy" when the fact is that there is energy conversion and the energy is doing new things; some of those energy conversions and their works were spelled out; not all conversions were spelled out, but some.  The law of conservation of energy means that AWES never "create" energy, but only convert extant energy from one form to another. A simple kite does that. The shown looper seems to even be a dancing super shower of the fundamentals of conversion, that is, making one form of energy into another form of energy (never creating energy.)  Also, there was given an opportunity to have "not the AWES of particular sort that is in the planning."  But that opportunity is being set aside.   It can be noted forever about this discontinuity in respect of your position.  

      There are very many "steps" involved in the dynamics of the shown machine; vast list of energy conversions are occurring doing work (placing the energy into another form ...further conversions). 

      In the face of apparent contradiction and insistence, it seems that attention just on the apparent (and perhaps actual) contradiction might give some future resolution for affecting the definition of an AWES. Again, consider letting there be families or types or categories of AWES within the superset of AWES. 

Best, 

~ JoeF

Added for the same hot seat: 

=================================

=== Another highly popular task is "pulling things" where things are other than the pulling around the shaft of an electric generator, but rather like pulling a boat,  kiteboarder, plow, ground scraper, cart, etc. These AWES specialize in channeling energy converter from the wind into overcoming the friction and resistance of objects to be moved about the sky or ground or water. The pulled objects move and the energy is found converted into other forms like potential energy, heat of friction, turbulence of waters, kinetic energy of the moved masses, etc.  Some of such "pulling" and generation of heat occurs even in the most simple kite. Cargo ships are being pulled; such replaces some use of fossil fuels. Kiteboarders are being pulled about by AWES; and when such activity replaces such activity as racing fossil-fuel vehicles, then some headway seems to be made to reduce use of fossil fuels. 

~ JoeF

JoeF,

 "The law of conservation of energy means that AWES never "create" energy, but only convert extant energy from one form to another."

I agree.

" A simple kite does that."

A simple kite generates (never creates) force (N), not energy (J), not power (W) until a conversion system is linked or integrated to the kite. For example SkySails system is a simple kite if there is no work, no showed ship; in case of implementation with a ship, the set ship-kite makes a part of an AWES, the complete AWES existing in case of implementation of a hydroturbine for example. It is true that "AWECS" was more explicit. Maybe we can keep AWECS for systems converting energy but not towing, and AWES also for systems towing.

PierreB    

DaveS,

Here is a text for clarification.

From Text - U.S. Government Printing Office :

"Airborne Wind Energy Systems (AWES) are described broadly as
mechanical devices that are moored to the ground, via a tether or
cabling component, for the purpose of capturing the fluid stream
kinetic energy of winds. The kinetic energy captured by the device is
then utilized in various fashions to generate electricity. In one
option, the wind energy is immediately converted into consumable power,
at the system component keeping the system aloft, and then transferred
to the ground by a mechanical tether, cabling conductor, or other
method. In another option, the combination of the wind, the aloft
device, and the mooring cables are systematically utilized to drive an
electrical generator located on the ground.
    The basic overall components that comprise various AWESs are fairly
similar in concept, however, the technologies and the specific devices
that keep them aloft differ dramatically. Such devices have leveraged
on similar engineering designs that apply to kites, balloons, kytoons,
aircraft wings, aircraft, airfoils, as well as others."

So a kite alone is not an AWES. An AWES converts energy, a kite does not. Note that for FAA the conversion is into electricity, and this text does not even mention "water pumping",but makes the difference between system aloft and system at ground.So by writing "The FAA does not distinguish Electrical AWES from Mechanical AWES (like water pumping)." you make both a false assertion and a confusion. 

Reading carefully this text (I have underlined some sentences to help you) before asserting "Be careful to never misuse "AWES" by false statements like "not yet an AWES, since there is no generator", since this ignores FAA intent."

PierreB

DaveS,

"Nowhere does the FAA actually state "electrical only"". False again,from text I put again:" The kinetic energy captured by the device is
then utilized in various fashions to generate electricity." Please do not call that there is not the term"only", it would be grotesque. It is clear FAA does not take into account of other means of conversion than electric generators.You repeat again and again false arguing, hoping the accumulation of them will make some truth.

In fact the new definition of the term "kite" as "AWES" is an excellent excuse to do not put a conversion system for Mothra. Such arguing like "Your vain desire  that the FAA to formally exclude non-electrical AWES will not find much support (maybe MikeB)." flies at ground level.

PierreB

Pierre, 

      1. F.A.A. is a follower with poor hold of the possible and the fullness regarding AWES; when scientists and developer advance, then the FAA will do some catch up.  Here in the science arena for AWES, we have opportunity to explore what is and not let rulemaking followers define the science.   This is said with full respect that cooperation on use of airspace is extremely important and rules are to be genuinely respected. 

2. Your "So a kite alone is not an AWES. An AWES converts energy, a kite does not"  still carry a scientific error that seems to be the basis for the other error in the quote.  When you do discover that a kite alone does both convert wind energy and then also converts some of that energy to many forms of energy including electricity, then perhaps you will be able to see that a flying kite alone is an AWES mechanically, scientifically, practically, even if policymakers here or there don't quite care enough to see the facts. The FAA has responded to our community that has a loud voice emphasizing generation of electricity for feeding batteries and electrical grid loads; but emphasis by voices and responders does not define science. 

So, it seems spending some effort on proving that a simple flying kite converts the wind's energy to other forms of energy, even electricity, might be something here to do.  Getting a starting point: I am guessing we have full agreement that a simple flying kite alone converts some of the wind's kinetic energy into potential energy, as the wing and tether stay aloft instead of falling to the ground. Tell me if we do not both see that matter.     Assuming we have that in common, I step further. Some of the wind's kinetic energy taken into the kite system by interaction is converted into spring stretches by the bending of the materials of the kite system, the stretching of the tether, the stretching of the parts that make up the resistive reaction anchoring part of the kite. Such deformations are movement of matter in relation to other matter and work is being done in the kite system parts; energy is stored in some of these deformations and real kites in real winds end up with release of some of those loaded springs. Some of these work actions store energy in one form or another and then some of the release actions put the energy into another form, perhaps kinetic, and to be shown some electric. The rub of parts during the deformation, the rub of wind against surfaces are areas where some electricity is generated and then some of that electricity is resisted and changed into heat and perhaps light and perhaps chemical reactions for chemical-energy storage and some release of chemical energy. In all, whatever energy the kite system soaks up from the wind will be used in scores of ways to generate other forms of energy without creating new energy; the sum will not be greater than what was in the kite parts plus what was taken from the wind, no matter the forms of energy generated by the working parts of the simple kite system. Are we in agreement with this matter about the the parts of the kite working and converting to many sorts of energy whilst the parts of the kite system do the generating of the various forms of energy (light, noisy, heat, electricity, ...) ..?   The scene is still a simple conventional kite without adding parts from some electrical-generator company, but just say two sticks and a covering and a bridle and a single tether to the kite's major part call "anchor" which is not to be every neglected for a simple kite else the scene is no longer kite. 

     Would a physics reference help here to support that electricity and heat and noise and other radiations are generated by a simple flying kite system which takes on some of the wind's kinetic energy over its own specific chemistry that the kite parts bring to the flying session?   Maybe. So, I will task myself and invite other scientists to bring forward a robust disclosure of what happens when a non-flying simple pre-kite gets into the flying kite mode.   In the quiet stage before launch, the pre-kite is say on the ground hardly interacting with any upper winds. Then the new scene is that the wing and tether and resistive set come up into action mode; the wing begins to interact with the wind; the tether begins to act with the wind; the resistive set comes into action and resists what comes through the new phase of the tether.  These changes from pre-kite to kite takes work; forces move things; interactions occur. And the set of actions are varied; there are microscopic actions, macroscopic actions, actions at a distance, surface actions, bending actions, compression actions, tension actions, friction activity, temperature changes, accelerations of relative parts, material stresses and resulting strains. And such dynamics or set of works all involve energy conversions where in one stage a set of parts act as generators of the next form of energy (again, no total sum creation of energy, just conversions through multitude of generators). The simple kite flying is ever alive with very many processes ongoing with mini-generators generating various forms of energy by using energy taken from the wind and some taken from the inherent energy package that the kite-system parts brought to the game. Tweaking the dance, some people like to make music aloft that in part is sent down to the ground via air conduction for ears to hear, but we get off topic as musical kites are with the moving of the parts of the kite system toward a special end purpose; we can stay on the most simple kite to find it to be an AWES.  

      How many different ways does a simple flying kite do some electricity generation without bringing the complexity of a COTS electric generator into the kite system?  I invite physic experts to chime in on this; I invite some chemical experts to chime in on this; I invite electrical experts to chime in on this. I am not an expert authority on physics, chemistry or the the sector electricity; I must stand on the shoulders of reports by the experts in those fields.  So, I begin:  There is much talk about some electricity being generated when the wind flows over the surfaces of the simple kite system.  Ref1      The kite parts are made of different materials and as the parts take on some of the wind's energy the varied are found to contact rubbingly against one another causing some flow of electricity to occur that was not before occurring.    Ref2 

To be an AWES, a simple kite system need only show that it takes in energy from the wind and converts the energy to other forms of energy.  It is to be notice that a duration occurs for the flying session of a simple kite; it keeps taking in energy from the wind and the kite system keeps converting that energy to other forms of energy including sending energy out from itself to effect changes in other objects of the environment; the simple kite system is dynamically capturing the wind's energy and internally dynamically generating many forms of energy and dynamically radiating and altering the atmosphere and soil and people and animals and trees.  The simple kite system does not just take in energy, but is continuously sending out energy into the air and space and soil and other things. Smart receptors can indicate some of the continuous radiance from a simple kite. My ears hear the simple kite frequently. My ears and hands are worked by the kite's radiance through oscillations extant in the simple-kite's tether resultants; the simple kite loses or gives energy to others in many ways in many forms... all without COTS LEDS or special musical strings or special robust electric generators or special friction-heat generating parts. Just the simple two-stick Malay kite in flight is ever doing these dances, operations, conversions, generations, radiatings, givings. If the simple kite did not convert the wind, then it would fall to the ground; if the simple flying kite did not convert and generate other forms and radiate/give to parts not itself, then there would be a build-up of energy that would finally be intolerable, but that does not ever occur as equilibrium maintains. Balance occurs. The energy of the wind is converted nearly continuously to lift and drag and make heat and make electricity and make sounds in tether and sound in soil and sounds in air. 

Thus a simple kite is an AWES.   

That established, one could then decide to have a more complex kite system, say one that has in its resistive set a COTS Selsam generator; such generator becomes part of the kite system and becomes one of the ways that the wind's energy captured by the kite system finds a way to give some of that energy to batteries or grids. A kite system with such a Selsam generator is not longer just a Malay two-stick-single-line with a rock as the resistive set, but rather a system with a more complex near resistive set that includes an evolved converter: a Selsam generator. Without prejudice, the simple kite system is an AWES and the different system with the Selsam generator is an AWES. 

Soon, 

Best to all forms of AWE, 

Lift, 

~ JoeF

So

See related recent note that applies in part. 

Again, FAA is struggles to follow the science; they are not the science workers. It can be shown that a simple flying kite does always use of the the wind's energy to generate some electricity without any special COTS robust electric generator. So, even without crediting FAA, their poor following of the science gives text that is fulfilled by the simple kite system.  The FAA also barely is aware that conventional turbines have a noise challenge; the FAA is barely aware by TACO that kites make some noise also, as they are generators of sound besides heat and electricity, even without a Selsam generator off the shelf. 

      That some people will refine kite systems to generate more noise or more heat or more electricity than a simple kite configuration would give is open ground for creativity to do its thing. To fail to see that the simple kite is a converter of energy and a pile of generators converting one form of energy to other forms is to be aside of the science involved.  The FAA needs to care about airspace traffic safety; their job is not to be expert kite scientists; arguing from FAA poorness on science to effect just what the is the science brings on an intolerable situation for scientists;  traffic rule makers are not in the business of making the science unfold.  If an AWES makes light, then governors caring about light pollution will make rules. If AWES makes electricity, then governors of electrical safety will come into play.  If AWES makes heat, then forest rangers may step in and try to say something about forest fires.  If AWES drop things onto land, then city fathers and mothers will want to have a say and make some rules. If AWES move things from here to there on the ocean, then maritime governance will come into have their say.  But all that governing as such should not be the foundation for knowing the science. 

      The science shows that a simple kite without COTS generators or pumps does convert wind's energy and then generates some radiance to effect the environment, because the simple kite holds in the flying dynamic many steps of conversion and generation and conversion again. Such a foundation excites some of us to go ahead and refine what we put into a kite system to emphasize certain types of radiance; we design and develop to channel how we have the kite system use the wind's energy; some design to make music, some design to heat things by friction, some design to abrade things, grind grain, lift wet clothes to dry, move parts fast to scare birds, lift and drop things to pulverize the things for second uses. That advanced tasks may be accomplish should not prejudice anyone into not seeing that the very simple kite already plays in these matters, but perhaps not playing some advanced dance or application that can be in focus. 

Soon, 

Best, 

Cheers, 

Lift,

~ JoeF  

DaveS,

As usually you justify a false assertion by another false assertion. It is clear FF knows AWES as conversion systems for generating electricity. Mechanical AWES is often defined as groundgen where tether transmission is mechanical in opposition in electric cable within tether for flygen. If you want you can ask FAA to include pumping water as completely Mechanical AWES."Please understand that the US FAA system is driven by user communities." I am sure FAA also will include all kites according to your new definition (a kite is an AWES) ,allowing including Mothra; kites being known for a long time it is even not needed to define AWES! Please include also people as AWES (DougS by JoeF's voice, it is a beginning) , and also all the world as AWES...

PierreB

JoeF,

"To fail to see that the simple kite is a converter of energy and a pile of generators converting one form of energy to other forms [are a converter of energy as well;it is not needed to add "one form of energy to other forms" making a pleonasm beside "converter"]is to be aside of the science involved."

I fail to see a simple kite as a converter of energy. A pile of generators is a converter of energy, a simple kite is not.

DaveS should replace poor people working in FAA and not understanding science:it is probably the only way for Mothra to work as an AWES...

PierreB 

JoeF,

See my precedent post."Your "So a kite alone is not an AWES. An AWES converts energy, a kite does not"  still carry a scientific error". No in terms of industrial applications.So I repeat again my sentence and confirm it:"So a kite alone is not an AWES. An AWES converts energy, a kite does not".
By defining a kite as an AWES, cooperation with "poor" people of FAA is not needed, kites being known for a long time.

PierreB

The new orientation on the basis such like "a kite is an AWES" makes the AWEforum becoming a kite forum among numerous other forum of kites.

PierreB 

To be more precise and topic-in _ until the present forum becomes a forum of kites among other forums of kites _ the following comparison would be more exact: a kite is not a converter of energy, and a wind turbine is a converter of energy.

A pile of generators or a generator alone can be a part of a wind turbine, so a part of a converter of energy. Note again:"converting one form of energy to other forms" is what makes a "converter of energy". So it is not usefull and unclear to use "converter of energy" for kite beside "converting one form of energy to other forms" for a pile of generators (for a wind turbine being better for comparison).   

PierreB 

Ever-Raining Kite System, an ever-giving AWES
Have the kite system bring up water or other materials in a continuous or continual fashion using energy mined by the kite system from the wind. Drop the water or other materials in a continuous or continual fashion at various altitudes along the tether set and even at the wing set. Materials or chemicals taken up for raining down could be seeds, water, fertilizer, messages, food, animals, microbes, gliders, drones, personnel, sand, confetti, wings, kite systems, blankets, parachutes, fire retardant, gifts, tools, etc.

• CC3.0 NC BY SA  ~ JoeF   6Feb2014 

Pierre, 

       Work will be done toward helping people see that a simple kite is a converter of energy in several ways. Some effort has been made in the forum to demonstrate how a simple kite system is at essential core a converter of energy in more ways than one.  When such is seen, such does not dictate that a person must stay at the simple kite, but is allowed to refine the kite system in order to effect emphasized effects, like increase just how much light radiates from the system or how much electricity radiates from the system or how much sound radiates from the system. This forum is very heavily about refining from the simple kite system into complex kite systems that radiate heavily a chosen type of radiation or energy; electricity is a highly popular choice, but less still-valid choices are lift, traction, musical, material moving, etc. There is a sector of the AWES kite energy community that has decided to focus only on refining kite systems to emphasize radiating electricity from the kite system.  But there are other respectable sectors of the AWES community that are refining AWES kite systems to radiate sustaining lift of material and personnel for various reasons. And still other respectable sectors of the AWES kite energy community who are refining kite systems to radiate lifted water. Others to radiate chemicals manufactured in the kite system. These various radiations from the working kite systems use the captured converted wind's kinetic energy.  

     From your text, it seems like you are solid member of the kite systems that radiate electricity; your favored sector does not cause the other sectors to be any less valid. 

     That a simple kite system is already a converter and generator that radiates results from massaging captured wind's kinetic energy does not force the final character of this forum; this forum is dedicated to refining kite systems to effect the accomplishment of tasks including the task of turning the shafts of highly evolved electric generators integrated into the kite system either aloft or in the ground-area placed resistive set of the kite system. 

      Your statement: "I fail to see a simple kite as a converter of energy." might one day be a statement you will alter, but maybe not.   Evidence and argument will continually be refined to show that a simple kite is a converter of energy in more ways than one, and that the simple kite system radiates energy in forms that are generated within the simple kite system; and thus the simple kite system will thus show itself as a true AWES, without prejudice relative to refined non-simple kite systems that have specialized arrangements to radiate in one way more than another way.  How much adventure might be experienced to bring such light to you is not known; and it is interesting to me that you had not known that a simple kite system is such a converter and generator of forms of energy with a continual radiation to the environment, hopefully in such form as to be considered blessing and gift. 

      One of the reasons for the FAA to get involved differently than before is because their rules for kites were not flexible enough to handle the refined larger kite systems that are coming out of the industry that refines kite systems in order to do major practical works (one of the works is to radiate electricity, but that is not the only radiation in mind by the AWES community that is asking for airspace respect. Ultimately the era K3 ... the AWES era, will win respect and have its portion of the sky well governed. 

Soon, 

Lift, 

~ JoeF 

Pierre, 

1. The vague fencing of "industrial applications" does not stop the simple kite's radiations; it is the clever person who can see even in the simple kite's radiations used in some "industrial" application. That such can be proven in such fuzzy text environment should in no way keep anyone in the AWES community from advancing into complex kite systems that radiate more of one kind of radiation than another by industrial-specific choice.  

2. Once one knows what an AWES is, then that same one will be able to see that a simple kite qualifies for membership in the AWES community. That situation in no way prevents AWES workers from advancing into arrangements for kite systems in order to get more of one kind of radiation than another.   On the other hand, it is of no use for an advanced AWES-holding person to deny the facts about a simple kite system's qualifying as a humble member of the sector. 

3. The "poor" of FAA ... by me was pointing to the relative expertise in the kite energy domain; the FAA personnel are spending their time with a focus that has them be cooperators with experts in specialized domains.  Hopefully they are "rich" in what they do and hopefully they get their minds enough around the specialized sciences to effect air-traffic safety and air-space-use equity. 

4. The kite has been known to a certain extent for a long time. However, the kite has been increasingly understood as time marches forward. And the kite is not fully known yet.There are yet unknowns in kite that are being chased by some people.  In the future, the kite should be better known than it is today. I know that each day I learn something new about kite; and increasingly I see how the kite even in its simplicity is a complex converter of energy, a complex set of generators of varying forms of energy, and a radiator of energy to the environment. And increasingly I see new ways to format away from the simple kite system into more complex or varied-structured kite systems in order to effect radiance from the kite system to accomplish different tasks. 

5. The increasing masses, altitudes, accelerations, bulk, use, etc. is having the FAA rethink "kite"as their prior kite rules faced a smaller activity. The FAA knew about barrage kytoons, and large sporadic kites, and toy and sport kites. But the era K3 is moving the FAA to adjust rules and air space control to accommodate the coming new dimensions of kite activity. Very definitely the cooperation of the FAA is needed for K3. 

Partners to enrich each other: FAA to K3 and K3 experts to FAA for advancing the richness of the partnership and overcome domain poorness.  K3 experts do not invest themselves to be top experts in working FAA things; FAA does not invest themselves to be top experts in AWES matters. Relative poorness and relative richness. 

Adventure continues, 

Lift, 

~ JoeF

Where is the bulk emphasis, Pierre? That a simple kite is an AWES does not change the bulk focus of the forum. The bulk emphasis of the forum from its birth is to refine kite systems to perform specialized tasks in the small to large through tens scales of AWES, including a high interest in heavy industrial service. The AWES forum is a certain kind of kite forum with a character, purpose, and mission that sets it apart from the toy-kite forums, the sport-power-kite forums, the history-focused forums.  That a kite is an AWES is an important seed; this forum is to grow that seed into arrangements that successfully accomplish tasks, including the task of radiating electricity into utility-scale grids.  That a simple kite already affects utility-scale grids does not stop this forum from spending its coin on advancing into huge kite systems that have their parts arranged to radiate gigawatts of rectified and treated electricity to serve nations. Rather, that a simple kite is a humble AWES already could motivate one to advance from the humble seed into the flourishing plant. Some of the advanced plants will radiate light, some electricity, some lift, some pull, some heat, some rained materials, some people, etc.    That a humble simple kite is a humble member of the AWES community is not sufficient reason to prejudicially flee from association with such humble member. Indeed, mastery of simple kites may well allow one to be a strong robust player in the game of heavy industrial kite systems.  There is hardly a lesson in humble-kiteville that does not have an analogue in advanced AWES.   This forum stands to gain from the works of other kite forums, but is not limited by the fences constructed in other forums; AirborneWindEnergy forum is slated to advance kite arts to effect substantial task accomplishments beyond recreation, beyond toy entertainment, beyond restive kiting, beyond the seeds ...   This forum is a place that invites the best science and engineering humans may muster to bring kite systems into formats that radiate practical blessings for earth, hopefully in small and big ways, some of which will replace some of the use of coal and oil in the world.

Best, 

~ JoeF

Years ago at the beginning of the forum there was the exercise with tension with Dave Culp where for the forum I was showing how a simple flying kite is at basic a "wind turbine".   That conclusion has not stopped. It was shown how the wing set of a simple kite has the tether set as the turning radial task. In the activity of the simple kite, the wind interacts with the simple kite system and turning motions occur and the kite system is changed by its interaction with the wind. The change in the kite system is a result of being affected by the wind's kinetic energy; the kite system ... a wind turbine ... rotates, bends, deforms, springs compressingly, springs releasingly, generates various oscillations mechanically and electromagnetically and changes the character of its tether set and its resistive anchor set ...changing the world.   

In any case visitors to this forum are invited to advance the technology of kite systems to accomplish defined tasks. The tasks may be humble or earth-shaking. The formation of kite systems to accomplish certain tasks will challenge the best minds available. The building of industries using kite systems will be a robust adventure. A vast array of jobs will be needed to design, operate, maintain, de-commission, and use AWES.  

~ JoeF

Ever open to the hot seat is the face of this forum. The snapshot of the face right today is placed in this post: 

============================

International rapid AWES development (RAD) of airborne wind energy conversion systems (AWES).  

Kite energy systems work to fulfill tasks or provide energy for others to use.

Advance the science and art 

of tethered craft (anchors may be fixed, mobile, moving, or even flying)

for capturing and utilizing

fluid stream kinetic energy.

Analogues in air and water form one art party. Domina Jalbert made it clear to the world that any sky-kite system has its obvious analogue in water, and thus obvious to those skilled in the arts. 

Top-level AWES aspects: Designing, Validating, Inspecting, Assuring Safety, Assuring Quality, Siting, Communicating, Insuring, Certifying, Operating & Maintaining, Piloting, Observing, Controlling, Advertising, Selling, Adjusting, Decommissioning. 

We have many leaders discussing and sharing technology. 

"a leading company in airborne wind energy" will be applied to those sharing in this forum.

Un-tethered airborne wind power plants are the focus of a group: DSUTWP at 

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSUTWP/

The Great AWE Debate is ongoing. Mike Barnard and Paul Gipe have been invited to he debate.

A simple kite is already a wind turbine performing works. But this forum aims to advance kite systems for accomplishing small and humble tasks and huge global heavy industrial tasks. The tasks may include such as lifting, pulling, radiating light, radiating electricity, transporting goods and people.   Thousands of tasks await solutions by kite systems (AWES). 

============================

Doug, 

      1. A part of something does not need to be taken as the ruler of the whole; other parts in the whole have their valid play; and the whole is greater than the parts. 

2. Your feedback missed an important space of concern. No, I have not been saying that a kite system just flied, but way more, that a kite system is an active complex set of converters and generators, even in the most simple of kite systems; flying or staying aloft is the result of just one of its many energy-conversion work results. Look at the deformations, the compressions, the spring releasings, the bendings, the active stressing and straining, the formation of radiations of many sorts; such go beyond just flying. And the simple kite is just a seed portending advanced kite systems that are so configured to radiate in focused manner to accomplished defined and varied tasks.  The seeds of all this are old knowledge, but the nurturing of the seeds to effect grand blessings on earth is the freshening called era K3. 

3. The text-word struggle during formation processes seems to be a natural tool of the mind. What is a kite ...whatever it is, is not changed by words or text. Words are our tools to help us get near to kite. Touch and vision are also tools to help us get near to kite. Mathematics and physics are other tools to help us know kite. Logic can server us as we approach the essence and potential of kite. When lessons and realizations occur during maturation, then text and freshened definitions are invited to reflect the advance. Each human person has their text that is distinct for them them; they bring their text into forums and there is ever a struggle to share perspectives, as each person's text is unique; we can learn from each other's text when we stay in the conversation helpfully. Focus on ideas and not on persons has been recommended by seasoned sages.  If our individual texts are not being altered, then it is my bet that growth has stopped. Growth will go hand-in-hand with people altering their personal texts as they learn from nature and others. At every new insight about kite, I am faced with a tease to review all other prior text to see just how the advancing perspective affects the prior text. The Text Space of today will pass away to be replaced with New Text; such is the way of good science and art. You are invited to help form the New Text, Doug.  I know that DaveS is with a continuing habit of forming New Text.   The kite text of a decade ago is less serving than the kite text extant today; and today's kite text will stand as inadequate for tomorrow.

     Your terse "nowhere" seems to be blind to new arenas entered by us and others. We have entered arenas that were not seen in earlier days. 

May your text be altered soon,

Best, 

~ JoeF

In the arena of topic, we recall from earlier posts the lifting of uncharged batteries, charging the batteries aloft, and then dropping the batteries back to ground or to other receivers. The return could be effected by loop carriage, line-guide carriage, gliding technology, parachute technology, drone interfacing.   The lifting of the to-be-charged batteries could be done in various ways: tether-loop conveying, drop-loop elevating, drone servant, active side-assisting kite system dedicated to lifting the uncharged batteries to be left off to the aloft point. Etc. 

Why go to the trouble of lifting batteries to be charged? Why not just charge the batteries by kitricity while keeping the batteries on the ground?    Maybe conductive tethers are not in the budget or particular system vision. Maybe laser or microwave transmission is not the choice for some reason. Maybe groundgen arrangement would be too intrusive in some circumstances.  We are open for other rationale for the scheme of charging batteries aloft by flygen AWES. 

~ JoeF

Rain ice in a continuous or continual flow from above. 

Either take water up high or capture atmospheric water by operating a specially designed kite system; let that AWES gather water ice and then drop or otherwise convey that water ice for uses on the ground. Humans use ice for many reasons. The capturing of atmospheric water to make ice aloft is a challenge in itself.   Lifting water to the AWES for conversion to water ice could be accomplished in many ways. The kite system could then "rain" or convey the water ice to ground points or to other aerial points using various means. 

~ JoeF

Rain seeds from aloft working AWES has been mentioned before. But here we mention the operation in context with the topic. The involved kite system could be arranged to do several task depending on the particular seeding project. The AWES might give energy to convey the seeds to aloft points, might hold the sees for UV exposure for some time, might capture some atmospheric water to wet some certain types of seed, might capture atmospheric water to wet the dart holding a seed or seedling, might focus the sun to warm the seed-holding darts, might convert some of the wind's energy to heat to warm the seed-holding dart before dropping the dart, might generate the mechanism to operate the perhaps smart dart-releasing process.  

Then the darts are released for penetrating soils at particular points on earth. 

Or the raining of seeds might be in bags where human receivers on the ground will convey the bags for planting at their schedule.   Or the raining of seeds might be part of a bird-feeding program for conservation or research or farming.   Or the raining of seeds might be for care of land areas following a clearing that occurred by nature or action of humans or animals. 

~ JoeF

Granted now:
 

US 8405244

System and Method for Umbrella Power Generation

Assignee: Skywind, Inc., Fremont, California, USA

Filed: April 6, 2010

Granted: March 26, 2013

 The provisional application No. 61/215,201 had been filed on Mayb 4, 2009. 

U.S. Cl.  290/55

Jianjun Zhang

Nanzhi Zou

Wang-Long Zhou

Our update brings a folder and some expanded notices and links: 

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Zanettistudios/index.html

connects with the owned TWIND®  trademark. 

Two techniques. 

Two patents. 

Updates on the tech direction and project are invited. 

JoeF,

If a simple kite is an AWES, we admit all forums about simples kites are also forums about AWES. So the present forum is not "the" AWEforum (with KiteGen forum) but a forum among others about AWES.The number of stakeholders seen on Stakeholders - EnergyKiteSystems.net would be not about 700 but millions times 700. It is a new orientation.

For the best,

PierreB 

DaveS,

A kite uses wind energy to stay aloft but does not convert wind energy by itself _ using is not converting _ ,until a conversion system is linked or integrated, the set making an AWES. The great difficulty for a viable scalable AWES is both the abilities to stay aloft and to convert wind energy (electricity, pumping water or another form of energy) in an economical way.   

PierreB

DaveS,

"Pierre is close to conceding that kites are AWES..." No! All my posts indicate the contrary. A kite is not an AWES: a kite uses wind energy to stay aloft, an AWES converts wind energy. Please try to win about a realization of an AWES, not about arguing.

"Pierre had been asked to team up with them. ": yellow journalism.

I precise again AWES could maybe become economically viable; that means now it is not the case. The problem is not a debate between anti-AWE and pro-AWE, but the realization of a credible system. Note that for both Paul Gipe and Mike Barnard their position is about existing systems in a next future, not necessarily in the absolute. I do not think to redefine kite as AWES will help to realize a viable AWES.

PierreB