Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES10451to10500 Page 106 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10451 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10452 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: General Misconceptions About Arches and Dense-Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10453 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10454 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10455 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10456 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10457 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10458 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10459 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: General Misconceptions About Arches and Dense-Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10460 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10461 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: diaphragm lift

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10462 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10463 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: New Power-Kite Pilot-Station Design

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10464 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Lift mass and then drop it

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10465 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: Lift mass and then drop it

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10466 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: diaphragm lift

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10467 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: diaphragm lift

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10468 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Debating Gigawatt-Scale AWES Concepts v. Towers (attn. MikeB)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10469 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AWE v.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10470 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10471 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10472 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10473 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: heat storage?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10474 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10475 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10476 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Makani tether twist solution?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10477 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
Subject: Re: New Power-Kite Pilot-Station Design

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10478 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Re: Makani tether twist solution?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10479 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10480 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Re: Makani tether twist solution?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10481 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: DIY Traction Kites and Scrap-Kites (attn. MikeB)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10482 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10483 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10484 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Makani assessment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10485 From: edoishi Date: 10/29/2013
Subject: Crosswind Kite Power at TX AWE Encampment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10486 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Signal to noise ratio

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10487 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10488 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10489 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: Makani assessment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10490 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10491 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: Makani assessment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10492 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: Makani assessment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10493 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: Makani assessment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10494 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Abbas Rezaey's 10GW AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10495 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10496 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10497 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10498 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10499 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Mike Barnard's surprising 10MW AWES Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10500 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/30/2013
Subject: Re: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10451 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

DaveS,

 

"Similarly, do not be too hasty in your assumptions and calculations (which are sometimes very problematic)."

 

Please provide your own calculations and descriptions.

 

PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10452 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: General Misconceptions About Arches and Dense-Arrays
DaveS:

I doubt anybody else would point at me as the world's leading AWE skeptic, but maybe I'm wrong. I blog on wind energy as a sideline from my day job, which is solutioning and de-risking massive multi-country technical solutions for IBM. When I ask for a complete technical solution at least at a high level and ask questions about each component and claim, and ask for supporting evidence for each claim, that's what I do for a living.

Don't take it personally, but you don't have a complete solution even sketched out and haven't yet provided evidence for your claims. As I said, you've got a lot of work to do, it will take a long time and I will be interested to see how it develops. And right now I think it's far too complex, unwieldy and unresponsive to changing conditions to be realistic, and won't be able to have automated launch or landing for conditions it can't fly in. And I don't think you've worked out how to get power to the ground from that far up, and have only concepts of how of a mega-arch might be used for ground-based generation. It's very early days, and it may never work in practice, never mind be practical. You are in the research phase on most of the projected components, not the production phase. That's just reality.

But so what? I'm just one guy and I've asked a bunch of questions that need to be answered regardless. 

To one of your other posts, I completely agree that there is a ton of energy in the upper atmospheric winds, but there is a lot of harsh turbulence as well. I'm a paraglider. I've been 2700 feet up on rags and string and other paragliders I know have been up a lot higher for a lot longer. We paragliders study meteorology obsessively to be able to fly somewhat safely in a very narrow range of conditions with our rags and string. I think you should spend a bit of time watching paraglider failure videos. It's instructive.

Cheers,
Mike

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10453 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
All:

I think a lot of this is well known to most of you, and I apologize if I just missed this discussion in the history. However, I think a clarification of state-of-the-art is required, in the interests of ensuring that AWES folks proceed with a clear understanding of what they are competing against. To that end, I put a couple of graphics together, aligning their scales. This is imperfect, but will provide clarity for comparison.

The key observations of note are that in areas where wind turbines are erected, HAWTs are already outside of most ground effect slowing. Observing Pareto's Law, they are already in clean, strong air, and have a very large swept area in that zone. The rate of increase of wind speed with increasing altitude slows substantially. Increases above that level are non-trivial, especially into the jet stream, but the higher the altitude, the more difficulty in bringing energy usefully to the ground. 
The first graphic is modified from a Government of Canada graphic I ran across in the LTA material. http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/cbd/building-digest-28.html  The second graphic is modified from one of many scaled representations of increasing HAWT heights and swept area diameters, this one from EWEA from 2007 reproduced in this article. http://www.terramagnetica.com/2009/08/01/why-are-wind-turbines-getting-bigger/


The following graphic from the successful Upwind project (now superseded by the newly launched Innwind project) focusing on the increasing the size of offshore wind turbines is instructive as well. The largest turbine in the above image is the fourth largest on the image below. The world's first 7 MW wind turbine was just inaugurated. 8 MW and 10 MW wind turbines are being built. The Innwind project, with substantial funding, is assessing the key technical challenges with achieve 20 MW wind turbines for offshore use.  Offshore, obviously, has an even more drastic increase of wind speed above sea level. 

graph-1.png

The point of this is that AWES must compete in an area of diminishing returns. AWES current realistic heights are not in massively stronger winds than wind turbines today, but marginally stronger ones. HAWTs are economic and full LCA price per KWH for new generation is now cheaper than anything except gas generation in countries where fracking is dominant. 

For additional perspective, I've included below the current MAPS sounding for one of the places I've paraglided recently. The wind speed increase is in line with the average from the original observation. Substantially higher wind speeds do exist above 5000', but the difference between 500' and 5000' is a lot smaller than the difference between 100' and 500'.


Once again, this is the reality of the space AWES needs to compete in, and again I apologize for rehashing what is likely obvious to many or most of you.

Cheers,
Mike
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10454 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

Pierre asked: "Please provide your own calculations and descriptions." (regarding arch power and dynamics).

I do Pierre, but you seem to miss them. Did you follow my recent posts regarding dimensionless crosswind-stability and wing-loading spectrum numbers? I do many AWES descriptions, plus many photos and videos of real flying demos. Please count this work. Keep in mind the use of TUDelft work to support kite arch theses is third-party, far better than just me making isolated claims.

If you can do as well for your curious offshore AWES concept, I will not complain.










On Sunday, October 27, 2013 3:58 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10455 From: dave santos Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
Mike,

Yes we do see a lot of wind graphs over a lifetime; the more the better, especially to compare with our own flight experience and data.

Note that your first pasted graphic is only ad hoc, hypothetical hurricane force storm winds (for designing building load-limits!). In AWE we use "most-probable" wind as a more rational standard. 

The inset turbine size trend next shown shows the HAWT scaling limit approaching (flattened growth curve). The next big turbine size trend graphic then makes optimistic projections (no flattened curve) that never panned out. Max rotor diameters topped out well smaller, due to diminishing returns of scaling (cubic-mass limits).

The final graphic hardly even shows the surface boundary layer we are discussing, due to a poor choice of altitude scale, but if you could see the real picture, it close-matches the graphic in NykolaiB's Whitepaper. Never forget that even a small bump in velocity raises power exponentially. Expect to see a huge bulge at our heights, above towers.

For the best discussions of the "most probable" wind gradient, our domain expert is Dr. Cristina Archer. Her findings are at clear odds with your suppositions here. So are our flying experiences. You do not seem to even suspect the common sweet LLJs just above towers, nor account for lessened turbulence and greater availability just above tower level.

Your assumptions here do not  at all reconcile with Cristina's data sets nor our experiments, so perhaps AWE at our ideal 2-6k ft ASL is far more competitive with conventional wind than you imagine,

daveS
 

PS I am hoping you concede the premise of the subject line, since you did not rebut. It was a special attempt to disprove your core AWE belief.



On Sunday, October 27, 2013 8:27 PM, Mike Barnard <mbarnardca@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10456 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
Attachments :

    Another difficulty for AWE is the expected implementation of HAWT offshore or farshore where the winds are strongers and where the difference between high and low altitude winds is lower than in the land.

     

    But all aspects of AWE,comprising grey energy and environmental impact,should be studied.On this point HAWT is not performant:the masses of the tower,the foundations,the rotor,the slow generator (with rare metals due to slowness),the gearbox,dismantling, involve high grey pollution.When fabrics will have a better life-time with new materials,AWE can produce with far less grey pollution.Do not forget new materials and new technologies allow the emergence of AWE under some prototypes and POC (proof of concept).

     

    So there are a lot of parameters (land and space used,what is it possible to make within these limits,reliability,efficiency,grey pollution).So even if AWE is less efficient than HAWT, on some locations AWE could be chosen for its lesser impact.Low grey pollution is at least an expected advantage for crosswind AWES using little material,the main problem being the difficulty to maximize the space,+ reliability.

     

    PierreB

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10457 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/27/2013
    Subject: Re: Link to Arched Kite Aeroelastic Simulation (attn. MikeB, PierreB

    DaveS,

     

    "If you can do as well for your curious offshore AWES concept, I will not complain."

     

    AWE searches are not a game for childs telling:"if you dont like my AWE,I will not like yours."

    I try to examine some aspects of different system until a possible answer.

     

    PierreB



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10458 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/27/2013
    Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
    PierreB, good point. 

    However, once again AWES is in a space of diminishing although far from non-existent returns.

    While some people are attacking HAWTs for these points, HAWTs are the most environmentally benign form of utility scale generation going.  As such, AWES is not as substantially different as might be expected.  And as HAWTs grow in scale, environmental impacts per KWh diminish rapidly. 

    AWES is competing with the champ in terms of generation. It's a tough fight.

    As always, full references to sources of the material presented are linked so that underlying assumptions and sources can be validated and checked. The first charts, to save time, are GE charts, but GE builds every form of generation going, does LCAs on them and has all of the data. When GE talks about cross-generation comparisons, they should be taken seriously .

    main-qimg-f66327821e57ad9e63423b867165ad5e.jpg

    main-qimg-326bdff509e5a0ae7906c405e188f52e.png

    Cross-generational assessments of conventional wind energy on wildlife are very clear that conventional wind energy is the most benign source available.
    main-qimg-976937782630ddd5b139a1b1cfd8057f.png

    main-qimg-94719dbb49071b06fd2ceb7f8d1535f9.png


    On the front of global warming abatement, conventional wind with full lifecycle CO2 generation from all aspects of manufacturing, construction, maintenance and decommissioning, are the best form of generation again.
    main-qimg-dd7682df938d3099cd2c3fccdca23550.png





    Cheers,
    Mike

    On 2013-10-28, at 2:26 PM, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10459 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
    Subject: Re: General Misconceptions About Arches and Dense-Arrays

    Mike,

    Thanks for your stated willingness to be proven wrong. Do you now find the horseshoe kite-arch form believable? How about aeroelastic modes? How did your model arch pencil out once fully expanded to fill the FAA box? We do have great launch-land tech for you to try to debunk. On the other hand, we have not even really started to review your AWE journalism in detail, for your conscientous attention.

    Would you be willing to be the missing skeptic voice in the AWE Documentary in production? Try and find a journalist more critical of AWE's prospects than you. We collect all references, and know of no such critic yet. On a personal point- you are mistakenly pissing on what you imagine as my core work, by a very false premise. There is no single pet a-priori solution to pretend to fairly dismiss. 

    Please understand, my one top AWE idea is to promote direct comparative testing. This is not your modus of guessing winners from far less data. The recent choice of AWES conceptual contenders presented to you was the direct counter to seeming prejudices, not a premature architectural down-select. It was all you, with crazy thinking; like arches cannot be taller than your first impression.

     In fact, I have personally trialed dozens of AWES architectures, flygens, groundgens, rigid wings, soft-wings; and made power every single time. I have also been inside of many of the top teams, with direct test experience with them. We agree with Wubbo, we can make systems to please ourselves, not just for Mammon.

     Its unfair to only pick on visionary ideas by the wrong standard, of mature engineering, when many real machines await your study (some are production track, most are pure science-engineering). Did you not catch notice of the KiteSat demo in Berlin last month? How about the new piston-pumping demo? These are openly shared intellectual exercises, not premature down-selects by hype-driven wind-biz ventures. We are scholars more than merchants.

    Congratulations on your paraglider experience. We share some DNA. Many lurking here are steeped in aviation, including NASA, Boeing, Sikorsky, and so on. As a child of aviation who grew up on the airshow circuit, I have an extensive background flying (since age 2 weeks, so I am partly deaf) in many odd branches of general and extreme-sport aviation. I have not yet been able to afford paragliding, but have hang glider and classic glider time. I have designed and flown many pioneering UAVs as well. Add parachuting, sailing, and so on, as areas of lifelong expertise. I have decades of working relations with UTexas AE  Dept. (including a first AWE seminar in '09). My father was an original tornado chaser, in WWII fighters; we flew some epic gnarly Rocky Mountain lee waves once, that nearly tore us apart. A lot of turbulent storm-proximity flying in and out of Mexico, including around hurricanes (strangely calm, but super-weird). I hope some of this counts with you when I state your  AWE knowledge just needs more work and time to make fully informed  and fair criticisms.

    You are right about how much remains to do in AWE, but maybe less than you guess. You are still wholly unaware of many novel solutions proposed by the open source community. Sorry if the required homework exceeds your patience. We only hoped you really would be "happy to be proven wrong", and allow a full hearing in that spirit.

    TIA for your AWE study diligence,

    daveS




    On Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:17 PM, Mike Barnard <mbarnardca@gmail.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10460 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/28/2013
    Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
    Attachments :

      MikeB,

       

       

      Yes,taken alone HAWT has less environmental impact. It would be interesting to simulate the potential of scalability for both HAWT (10 MW,20  MW,more?) and AWES (500 MW like 500 MW Wind Turbines: a design study pdf 10 mo (DaveS it is not my scheme!) or far less?).Indeed big unities = less anchoring = less links between electrical cables.

       

      Your participation in this forum is interesting and can help to determine what direction(s) AWE can take:utility-scale (now,but also according to projections with new materials,and for what conditions HAWT could not reach)?market niches?

       

      PierreB






       

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10461 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: diaphragm lift
      I've always fancied the idea of an arch kite working as/with some sort of diaphragm muscle.
      Working in a caged environment pulling fluid in and out. (kind of like previous bag squeezer / filler modes suggested

      http://rt.com/news/belgium-battery-island-renewable-319/#!

      Lifting up the edge of a sheet and spilling water over the lip of a wall sounds like a proper bonkers method of making power.

      NOTE there are many other suitable methods already mentioned for conversion of long med & short stroke kite pulls

      Rod Read

      Windswept and Interesting Limited
      15a Aiginis
      Isle of Lewis
      HS2 0PB

      07899057227
      01851 870878

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10462 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: TWhr Scale AWE Proof-of-Concept (Historic Aviation Case)
      On Mon, 2013-10-28 at 11:27 +0800, Mike Barnard wrote:

      Mike,
      I think you have misread that graph and left a zero off the altitude
      figures. It shows a huge increase in wind velocity between about 200m
      (maximum for a HAWT) and 400m. That shows that AWE would get a massive
      advantage by going to just twice the height of a HAWT. In your graph
      wind velocity peaks at 35 000ft. No need to go that high because there
      is more than enough energy in lower altitude winds to power everything
      we need many times over.

      Experts in the wind industry seem to mostly agree that HAWTs will
      probably reach their size limit at about 10MW. Companies that have
      designed 7 and 8 MW models are struggling to sell them.

      Robert.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10463 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: New Power-Kite Pilot-Station Design
      When I became established in the fuel cell arena in the mid 90's newbies
      used to ask me about references they could read. In those days it was a
      niche interest and my answer was that there was no substitute for
      trawling through thousands of articles and papers, many of which were
      primarily about other things. These days AWE is still a niche interest
      so the answer is the same. What I know about wind energy comes from
      taking the odd nugget of reliable information from many thousand sources
      studied intensively for 6 years now. Here is just one example that went
      through my process recently
      https://www.dropbox.com/s/xykwv0l4ci2p6ld/10y10l%20screen%20res.pdf#!

      A little of what I know about the trading of power on the grid comes
      from attending a conference that covered it, and a good conversation
      with the CEO of a company that did that sort of trading. Speaking with
      industry insiders helps a lot with finding out what is hype and what is
      real. In 1996 my faith in fuel cells was given a jolt. By doing the sort
      of process you are advocating I found out that I had been wrong and
      realised that FCs were mostly hype. I had been part of the hype. I got
      out of the field soon afterwards.

      The whole time I am working on kites I am asking myself if this is a
      field worth sticking with. I do not want to repeat my FC experience.
      When I speak with AWE newbies I ask them to imagine holding a stick, or
      twig or straw in one hand. Imagine it is the tower for a HAWT. Hold it
      at the bottom and imagine there is a turbine on the top. Feel how much
      force you can put on the top before it bends. Now grab both ends and try
      to break it by pulling. The difference in force is over 3 orders of
      magnitude. Structures in tension are thousands of times stronger than
      structures of similar mass that rely on resistance to bending. AWE can
      generate thousands of times more power with the same mass held at an
      altitude where the wind is a reasonable strength. A kg of kite and
      tether can out-perform a turbine and tower that weighs a tonne. That
      difference matters.

      The main thing holding back many AWE groups is that they are trying to
      run before they can walk. As you have identified, it is very difficult
      to stop a kite tying itself in knots. Speaking with a Makani insider
      recently I found out that that is why they have gone with their stiff
      wing design. They concluded that control of soft kites would be very
      difficult to automate. With Visventis we are initially aiming for the
      limited niche markets where it is economical to pay a pilot to fly the
      kite. Once that is established the automation process will be tackled
      one small step at a time. One limitation is that our target market is
      exclusively off-grid so energy storage is critical. Batteries on the
      market now would cost far more than the rest of the hardware of our
      AWES. As an electrochemist I have an idea to get the cost way down. Over
      this winter that will be my focus.

      Robert.


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10464 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Lift mass and then drop it
      This topic is partly old matter. DaveS in some prior post also did some calculations on this topic of lifting mass and then dropping the mass.    This thread invites revisiting the sector and furthering it also. 


      There are many ways to have kite systems lift mass and then drop the mass. The mass could be strictly lifted by the tether set by lifting wings of a kite system; and then drop the mass. The dropped mass may be shaped for niche purposes which we may visit soon. Or the lifted mass might be inside wings of a kite system. 

      Or the mass lifted by be on a hillside on rails while the kite system causes the mass to go up the hillside rail to some high point.  And the purposes of doing such may vary widely to fulfill niche purposes, even to let the mass drop to low potential while driving an electric generator via cable.  

      Others may describe more lift-and-drop scenes. 

      Now for a pause on the dropped mass: 
      The mass has been given potential energy derived from the kite system's mining the wind's kinetic energy. How to spend that potential energy?  Here is a short list to be expanded by adventuring workers: 
      1. Let the dropped mass by a powered aircraft. Let the powered aircraft go on its way for its mission. 
      2. Let the dropped mass be glider with handsome L/D; let the glider be on its way to fulfill its mission. 
      3. Let the dropped mass be a skydiver or a team of skydivers. 
      4. Let the dropped mass be a hang glider. Let the hang glider be on its way to fulfill various missions. 
      5. Let the dropped mass be fire retardant shaped as a glider with remote release as the mass glides over target areas. 
      6. Let the dropped mass be seeds or treeling darts for planting in special lands. 
      7. Let the dropped mass be rescued persons that had been lifted out of tight spaces or confined spaces. 
      8. Let the dropped mass be water for wetting or misting  or cooling or cleaning or reformation, etc.  purposes.
      9. Let the dropped mass be shaped in a way that will hammer something upon impact.  Hammer piling. Hammer things to be broken, Hammer soils to compact the soils. 
      10. Let the dropped mass be connected to a line which line is held up by an aerostat; and then as the mass drops let the dropping action drive a generator or pump. 
      11. Let the dropped mass be connected to a thrill-seeker's bungee line. 
      12. Let the dropped mass have a turbine aboard itself; during the drop let the turbine make electricity to run onboard instruments or/and charge batteries. 
      13. Let the dropped mass be atmosphere-altering particles for specific purpose. 
      14. Let the dropped mass be that which a fire-fighting commander would use to help set fires that help him or her to finally contain the fire being fought. 
      15. Let the dropped mass be water to set into a high reservoir for various reasons including hydroelectric generation, potable water works, industry, recreations, recharge streams, etc. 
      16. Let the dropped mass be a line buggy for entertainment. 
      17. Let the dropped mass be live fish to populate remote ponds. 
      18. Let the dropped mass be food, prizes, tools, clothing, medicine, rescue gear, shelters, blankets. 
      19. Let the dropped mass be fuel for the fetch of extant powered aircraft. 
      20.  ?

      After dropping lifted mass, then the kite system might go lift some more mass. Again and again. 

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10465 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Lift mass and then drop it

      Joe,

      At the fundamental level, lets note that "dropping" is a function of available lifting power (the primary tool). Lets also never forget that Altitude plus Mass is Storage, potentially on a grand scale. Minimum Sink Rate (in the absence of sustaining lift) is an important operational number.

      At a more specific method level, at the Encampment this summer, many of us trained lofting masses under a sport parafoil using a PTO. This is a good method for moving materials up and over obstacles. A DIY bambi-bucket could irrigate or recycle hydro. 

      The first finding from testing was that the swinging mass must harmonise with the sweeping, but this is very natural and easy to learn. The second lesson is that the mass can be placed with natural precision toward the side and top (margin) of the kite window, but its hard to keep station, or place a mass down, neatly, when stalled or sweeping fast in the power zone. Good four-line technique can manage a normal backwards landing direct downwind.

      Overall, flying a loaded kite is not much harder, but good piloting is highly favored. The pilot quickly learns to stay away from dynamical sticky-states, where the kite stalls under influence from the mass, with a sudden loss of control likely. At least its usually possible to recover some and make a safe forced-landing.

      daveS

      CC BY NC SA






      On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:49 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10466 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: diaphragm lift
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10467 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: diaphragm lift

       Two points: 

      1. The article includes a reference for some earlier work: 

      "In 2007, the Dutch consulting company DNV KEMA and engineering firmLievense outlined an “Energy Island” in a paper that’s on the DNV KEMA website. Check out the PDF."


      2. I am betting that Rod Read is envisioning a circular energy island with a rail on the circle for controlling arch kite system AWES. 



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10468 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Debating Gigawatt-Scale AWES Concepts v. Towers (attn. MikeB)

       MikeB,

      Thanks for patiently allowing the scattered open-sourcers to slowly gather the best current case in favor of AWES engineering possibly far out-performing wind towers. Open public debate is an exciting new phase for AWE. Perhaps you can marshal some more talent to your side, for balance. For what its worth, the small AWE field has hundreds of peer-reviewed papers, hundreds of advanced degrees, and thousands of person-years in key areas like aerospace and wind. The request that even a lone top skeptic be included in the AWE Documentary is sincere (The 2nd-Place "skeptic" is the Max Planck Institute team, who thinks AWE might be too effective, and they have agreed to an interview).

      Back on topic: There are quite a few gigawatt unit-scale AWE concepts in the public eye. The common potential advantage seen is not just reaching a better resource at lower capital cost, but transcending the inherent scale limitation to tower HAWTs. The megascale concepts also promise to use the least possible land-airspace unit for a given capacity, far power than an equivalent tower-farm [JoeF can help you with sources].

      Rather than flood you with the full list of megascale AWES contenders, first the simple megascale arch, in play in open-circles, was introduced. Here is another contender, by Dr. Beaujean, who is an EU industrial engineer with an undersea cable installation-systems background-

      http://www.500mw-windturbines.com/

      Before we run further through the list of known ideas (~12), please warn us if you are convinced the entire idea of a gigawatt wind-unit scale is in vain (as you reportage implies), so we can rest a vain effort to inform otherwise,

      daveS


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10469 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AWE v.

      Based on a brief history, modern conventional wind is seen as a sole dominant wind tech by its most extreme fans; but there are serious problems with a blind belief that it can (or will) really serve all our needs. A potentially far greater source of wind power, as AWE, is worth encouraging, otherwise excess fossil fuel dependence may be unnecessarily extended. That's why we work so hard, with unmatched passion.

      Below, for a balance of Forum views expressed, is a link to a Harvard engineering-science school summary of why wind-tower fanaticism seemingly overreaches. AWE is really a separate (far-larger) resource than conventional wind, as its stark absence from this conventional wind limit assessment by elite academia suggests-

      http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/02/rethinking-wind-power
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10470 From: Rod Read Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

      Maybe this sentence hinted toward AWE...
      In the meantime, policymakers must also decide how to allocate resources to develop new technologies to harness that energy.

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10471 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW
      It is worth noting that the limit this outlier study identified is three times current total worldwide electrical demand. This is a vastly higher number than any expected maximum penetrations of wind energy as a source of supply on a diversified grid with solar, hydro, biomass, nuclear and other. 

      This was pointed out in a comment yesterday along with a provided reference for a median study which indicated conventional wind was capable of providing 40 times total current electrical demand or five times total world energy demand. 

      Whether the number is three times or forty times or something in between, it is not in any form a real limit, a problem or an argument against conventional wind energy. 

      AWES must win based on lower full life cycle costs of electricity or niches where conventional wind is ineffective.

      Cheers,
      Mike

      ----------------------------- ipad -----------------------
      The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed. - William Gibson

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10472 From: dave santos Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW

      Mike,

      The wind-tower deployment limit cited by the elite outlier (DavidK) is social, not technocratic. You would have to conduct trench-warfare with every NIMBY tribe. How cool was a flame war against the little-old-lady Canadian cultural icon, Margaret Atwood?

      There really is a limit to how much tower promoters in a democracy will be allowed take over the landscape. AWE should reduce tower sprawl, by tapping far greater wind over the same footprint. Also keep in mind that AWE will work for many regions where surface wind is simply too weak to be conventionally economic for towers. The various references behind such ideas JoeF has linked for you to review.

      You are an outlier yourself, as such a resolute AWE skeptic, but without the fancy-pants Harvard Gordon McKay Professorship of your rival wind-power outlier. A plausible irony is if you only play into Big Coal's hands by missing the boat on AWE.

      Time will tell,

      daveS




       





      On Monday, October 28, 2013 5:19 PM, Mike Barnard <mbarnardca@gmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10473 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: heat storage?
      http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/130523-zeolite-thermal-storage-retains-heat-indefinitely-absorbs-four-times-more-heat-than-water
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10474 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW
      DaveS…

      Well, the "flame war" as you term it was delightful. It led to a couple of private lunches with Ms. Atwood, and her calling on me for a couple of years as her green energy consultant on various initiatives she was hoping would reduce global warming. She's been buying wind power through Bullfrog Power in Canada for years. Through her I was introduced to Graciela Chichilnisky, architect of the carbon market portion of the Kyoto Protocol and her partner Peter Eisenberger, professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences at Columbia. They had put together an air carbon capture mechanism based on off-the-shelf components and using industrial waste heat to drive it, allowing low cost carbon capture for sequestration or industrial feedstocks. We worked out the details of a way to use way heat from dynamic braking on freight trains using their technology and pitched it to a couple of the biggest freight rail providers in the world, sadly to no avail. Ms. Atwood was committed to the press conference and throwing her weight behind it if we could have made it to prototype. Ms. Atwood and I still interact occasionally as we follow each other on Twitter; if we are ever in the same city at the same time again, we'll possibly try for another lunch to catch up.

      "Outlier" has a specific meaning. It indicates something which is outside of the range of other studies, indicating that at best is be considered a theoretical boundary in that direction until other research supports it. This is a non-pejorative usage. The Harvard study is an outlier.

      DaveS, I told you privately that I was uninterested in having a personal and public argument with you. Now I'm telling you publicly. Stick to the knitting please, not to cheap, inaccurate and personal shots. 

      Cheers,
      Mike


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10475 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage?
      At 460-deg C, a molar mixture of 80% lithium hydroxide and 20% lithium nitrate can store over 1000-KJ/Kg in the eutectic-heat-of-fusion .  .  .   more than 5-times that of water.


      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: dimitri.cherny@yahoo.com
      Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:37:23 -0700
      Subject: [AWES] heat storage?

       
      http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/130523-zeolite-thermal-storage-retains-heat-indefinitely-absorbs-four-times-more-heat-than-water
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10476 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Makani tether twist solution?
      Hi all . . .

      I've been digging through Makani published documentation and am learning a bunch. I know Makani no longer participates in this forum, but I'm sure many of you have deep insights regarding them. I have a specific question I haven't been able to get an answer to, and it doesn't seem to be reflected in any detail in the AWES tether summary.

      Makani has chosen to fly their wing in a circle, presumably for the slight increase -- 0.9% to 13% per http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/73/37/23/PDF/2083-ff-007498.pdf -- in generation capacity and stability of energy output compared to a figure 8 pattern. They've scaled the tether appropriately with carbon fibre pultrusion for strength and weight characteristics, and aluminum as the conductor for weight and loss reasons over copper; very expensive but much less expensive than a HAWT mast obviously. The tether is expected to be a single integrated tether coiled onto a standard winch as far as I can tell. The tether is conductive, so it doesn't seem likely that they would be able to use tether swivel joints to solve this issue.

      How have they solved the tether twisting problem?

      I've been unable to find it despite poking and searching quite a bit. I have a couple of hypothetical solutions, but would prefer to understand their specific solution.

      Cheers,
      Mike
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10477 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/28/2013
      Subject: Re: New Power-Kite Pilot-Station Design
      RobertC:

      Thanks for the link those offshore wind essays. Exciting times, and the new trio of floating wind turbines off Fukushima are an exciting part of it.

      Very interesting focus with Visventis as well. You've paid attention to some of the anti-patterns of expensive tech rotting in developing country fields I see.  On that point, one element that I wasn't able to find in your site related to equally low tech traction kites. Do you have an approach to local build-your-own traction kites as well, perhaps from fabrene? Suboptimal flying, but very accessible for locals.

      One obvious extension point I'm sure you've thought about would be solving for the simpler problem of just flying the kite in relatively stable air in an automated fashion, with recovery, launch and landing requiring intervention.  These guys seem to have done at least part of it.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BOdLbQN36Q Building something that could be launched manually, fly adequately on its own for a while, crash safely, then be relaunched at convenience would be a decent next step, and also something suitable for more niches.

      There are, of course, a lot of wind generators in underdeveloped regions, most of them variants of Savonius vertical axis turbines used to pump water. They are obviously a lot lower power, but also a lot lower effort to build and maintain. What are your thoughts on the advantages for a remote village of the more complex AWES vs the dead simple Savonius? 

      Amusingly, I saw a lot of 'wind turbines' in Bali recently when I was there paragliding, very tall, thin wooden masts with rotating propellers on top. But they were all religious decorations and not doing anything except spinning. Lots of kites doing the same thing. 

      Cheers,
      Mike

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10478 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani tether twist solution?
      I don't know what Makani has used, but I'd try a standard thrust bearing with a dash of axial location, and a copper rod running in carbon brushes co-axial with it.  Perhaps an old generator could be butchered for its slip rings to experiment with.  The tips of trolley-car poles are simple carbon brushes running on wire.  I don't know why wind towers don't use them, being careful with limited wire twisting instead.

      Bob

      On 28-Oct-13, at 11:29 PM, Mike Barnard wrote:


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10479 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS (AW
      Mike,

      You did not at all answer to the broad problem identified by Harvard, of NIMBY social limits to full tower deployment, nor say what "cheap shots" you think are wrongly aimed at you. I will apologise for any wrongful statement you properly identify.

      Thanks for answering my question about Margarete, with so much colorful detail. That was not a technical question, however. Many other specific technical questions posed to you are still unaddressed. Sorry if you are upset by the insistence that you fairly respond. Please try-

      1) Do you really insist on the storm-wind building-design table wind-profile as a basis to claim that towers get essentially the same wind quality as AWE? (CArcher uses Beijing data sets in the 2013 Springer AWE book, as a typical profile, where once again the typical large bump in velocity (common surface LLJ effect) at AWE heights just above towers is evident, with the ~10x power density advantage evident.)

      2) Did you ever correct your arch frontal area model to reach the FAA proposed ceiling? What multiplier do you then get (for theoretic power) compared to the mistaken first-cut, and how does this compare (by footprint) with tower wind access? (less critical-  Do you at least concede a "horseshoe" arch form factor to be plausible?)

      3) How did you decide (in print) that current autonomous flight by companies like Makani is "robust" (in critiquing less-hyped piloted AWE R&D)? As aerospace roboticists (some of us), we think the system is brittle, and would surely crash within days, but we are open to examining your original source for your "robust" assessment.
       
      Please just answer as best you can, without further invoking emotional arguments,

      daveS



      On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:37 PM, Mike Barnard <mbarnardca@gmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10480 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani tether twist solution?

      Mike,

      Obviously, Makani is using a rotating contact for its tether, as the standard default solution.

      A clarification/correction- Makani has only once ever "participated" on the AWES Forum, and that was to apologise to Dave Lang for exaggerated marketing claims (without further details), which had prompted DaveL, our most respected expert, to complain publicly.

      The forum has been the lead source of expert Makani technical critique. Makani, as a "stealth venture", only diligently reads the Forum (reported by various insiders), choosing to always avoid open debate over its troubled architectural down-select. 

      There may be confusion here with the Airborne Wind Energy Consortium (AWEC), with Makani as a founding member. Makani has been reported to no longer be a member, following the recent Google buy-out.

      Hope this helps,

      daveS







      On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 2:06 AM, Bob Stuart <bobstuart@sasktel.net
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10481 From: dave santos Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: DIY Traction Kites and Scrap-Kites (attn. MikeB)

       Mike asked: "Do you have an approach to local build-your-own traction kites?"

      As kite masters, many of us build our own kites, of all kinds, including traction-kites, and the sewing is low-tech. For  a top "primitive" solution, the NASA Power Wing (NPW) is a great choice. The Texas AWE Encampment has been flying many craft-made and commercial production versions in AWES this year, with great results. Tarps also make reasonable kites, as is well known. Fabrene (TM), that your specifically mention, is representative of many cheap thin-film options (Tyvek, polythene, etc.)

      For a tangible sense of how cheap and low-tech a large DIY AWES kite can be, try this old "Scrap-Kite" pilot-lifter Morse-Sled (able to lift WECS) by KiteLab Ilwaco, made of old nylon tents discarded from a thrift-store. The spars are from salvaged lumber-





      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10482 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS

       MikeB,

       

      Conventional Wind Energy (CWE) improves while Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) is an emergent industry.As you indicate CWE has a good environmental ratio.But the question is:can renewable (in first solar and wind) compete with fossils or nuclear?No.Could CWE compete with fossils by taking account of substantial improvements but by keeping structural elements which the tower? One time more:no,because for that building thousands and thousands turbines would be required.The same question for AWE:maybe yes,maybe no.CWE is a 2D world of wind energy while AWE can be a 3D.

       

      PierreB 



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10483 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Re: Clear Limits to Conventional Wind foreseen by Harvard's SEAS
      Ever to recall also: 
      ==  thick vertically

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10484 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Makani assessment
      Hi all . . .

      Thanks to the assistance of several of you, I was able to gather enough information to do a more complete assessment of Makani's solution. Many of the observations will apply to other crosswind generation solutions, and few will be a surprise to most of you I believe. That said, I hope it will be of interest and value as part of the discussion.

      http://barnardonwind.com/2013/10/30/googles-makani-airborne-wind-generator-flies-a-bit-lower-when-you-look-at-it-closely/

      Cheers,
      Mike
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10485 From: edoishi Date: 10/29/2013
      Subject: Crosswind Kite Power at TX AWE Encampment
      At last, this 12 second proof-of-concept video* emerges from the TX AWE Encampment:

      Using a stock 7 sq meter NASA Power Wing piloted by a human kite master seated at a pilot station with a MegaBar in his hands, we have made the world's cheapest demonstration of pure crosswind kite power. No Yo-Yo, no retraction phase, no need for down wind airspace, no carbon fiber, servos, nor sensors.  The design is wonderfully scalable: Just add more kite, a bigger generator and a cushier seat  :^) 

      The kite engine is built around a flip-flop double-freewheel bicycle drive train.  When the kite goes left is spins the generator; when the kite goes right, it spins the generator. An artisan built concrete flywheel smooths out the turn around for even power output. The steel cable is anchored on either side 4 ft deep into the Earth and tensioned by a large come-along. The kite's control lines feed through a kPTO (kite power take off) which is a triple racing block on a zip-line trolley connected to a secondary cable way by means of a jumper. The secondary cable way makes a loop through 4 pulleys with the kite engine in the middle of the loop. Simple and brilliant. Mounted on the kite engine is a 48v generator, belt driven from the flywheel. 

      For AWEfest 2014, an optimized system will feed into our micro-grid, along with the imputs of Rock The Bike, and all the aggregated inputs of the open source, DIY kite power community.

      *please excuse crude videography. 

      CC by 3.0 (attribution: kPower)
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10486 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Signal to noise ratio
      Hi folks . . .

      I hope this doesn't cause too many ripples in the group, but the signal to noise / hostility ratio has led me to permanently filter out emails from one member. If I am not responding to something addressed to me, it is for that reason.

      I look forward to continuing informative and realistic conversations about AWES and HAWTs with the other members of this forum.

      Cheers,
      Mike
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10487 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment

       
      The slack wind and brutal heat of summer has passed at the AWE Encampment, with hundreds of odd technical details worked out in refining a crosswind-cable AWES kite-farm demonstrator.

      Today was good wind on a beautiful day. We hooked up a new beast, a double-stroke groundgen, which had only turned fitfully before, in sucker-wind. Some mysterious last kink in the machinery had been binding it up; big power just wasn't flowing thru the drivetrain. Sitting far out in the field, the problem could not be easily found within the Willy Wonka guts of the contraption. We chose and launched a NASA 7m2 NPW, which fired-up with characteristic power. Working the Magabar, the machinery creaked into pathetic slow-motion. A nice puff surged the kite, then a wonderful little "sproing" was heard. Suddenly the freed machine whizzed into sustained high-speed generator driving.

      The key technical accomplishment is that this true Low-Complexity Crosswind-Power, at a high TRL, with no downwind reeling, and only a brief moment of slack as the kite tacks at each end of its crosswind cable travel. With the flywheel spinning madly, tacking barely slows the machinery, and the power output is clearly far flatter than the jagged sawtooth traces of all the turbine-on-a-wing and long-reeling pumping crowd. Videogrammetry will confirm we got about 1800rpm out of the open-circuit generator (DC industrial motor in gen mode) that we estimate capable of ~10kW, continuous. Ed took video during the magic moment, to be shared promptly. 

      Our next task is to record actual power curves with a fully loaded generator. We have far larger kites to fly, up to 32m2, and a lot more seasonal wind coming. It will only get better, but for us this will be remembered as a "Wright Brothers moment", or like a wildcat oil-well coming in as a gusher.




      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10488 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment

      Nice work campers

      kitepowercoop.org

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10489 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani assessment
      Nice hitting Mike B.
      No punches pulled ... Mike Tyson more like.
      A welcome thorough analysis. You really put the work in.
      Where do you get time? IBM management skills like Dr Who.

      I intended drawing this week. Instead I distracted myself knitting spider webs
      (kids Halloween party.) Counts as x-training in 3D tension structure familiarisation.

      One point in the report which affects my design ideas, I think is a bit crude...
      High bit part count. I agree more bits to go wrong is a killer.
      More complexity has cost implications... yes and single point failure modes are to be avoided.
      But a natural design viewpoint uses multiple part redundancy.
      There is a balance available with multiple super simple, degradable, replaceable parts.

      Rod Read

      Windswept and Interesting Limited
      15a Aiginis
      Isle of Lewis
      HS2 0PB

      07899057227
      01851 870878


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10490 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !
      Harry,

      molten salt energy storage can have even larger heat effects. E.g.: heat of fusion of LiH is 2900 kJ/kg = 0.81 kWh/kg. It is not a "comfortable" substance, but  it's thermal stability is significant. It decomposes only above 1000 Centigrade whilst it's melting point is 688 centigrade,   that is the "safety window"" is significant, it is not simple to overheat and decompose it. But there is "of course" danger of fire.

      See:
      http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-pub.iaea.org%2FMTCD%2Fpublications%2FPDF%2FP_1356_CD_web%2FAbstracts%2FHomonnay.Z1.pdf&ei=xNxwUubRNonEsgaR54CgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEtmpQuUyGz6XTirYLtD2EQJLkoIQ&sig2=6W2dycR__g3jfqehiJVN-g&bvm=bv.55617003,d.Yms


      Well, I think, that the 3. method in the above classification, that is thermo chemical energy storage is the most promising way. But at  the same time I have to say that  the  race is not finished yet. You know, that the gravimetric energy density of today's most sophisticated commercial Li batteries is around 0.2-0.3 kWh/kg. There is an aim to develop batteries for electric vehicles possessing about 5 kWh/kg gravimetric energy density (LG Chem. Korea,and others.) Labor-scale tests prove the reality of this task. But there are yet a lot of difficulties, that belong not to the interest of this group. If you consider the energy densities of several energy-reach substances, e.g.:  6.25 kWh/kg NH3  ;  6.3 kWh/kg CH3OH ;  12 kWh/kg Li metal ;  15.46 kWh/kg CH4 ; 34.2 kWh/kg H2 and compare them to the energy density of current best batteries, the gap seems to be too large. There are a lot of arguments on both sides:either to build a compact system where electric power enters  (charge) and leave (discharge) the system (these are batteries, supercapacitors and the like), or to lead the process on a clean chemical way.

       Chemists are seeking solutions on both ways. I anticipate to reach two or more equivalent solutions at almost the same time.

      Best,

      Gábor


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10491 From: Mike Barnard Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani assessment
      Hi Rod . . .

      Thanks. When people ask the time question, I simply tell them the reverse of what you tell people. I don't have kids. (Also, no pets, plants, cottages, vehicles and I don't follow tv series.) 

      Regarding intelligently designed in redundancy, I completely agree. I depend on it every time I manage to paraglide. If any two lines break, the rest will carry me safely to the ground. If the control lines break, I can use the lines to the trailing edge and weight shifting. But all of the lines and the control lines are necessary for high performance flight. And still the paraglider is damnably fragile. A friend I used to design various things with -- furniture, robots, kites, software, etc -- and I used the term 'physical intelligence'. Where the component doesn't need automation or intervention to perform, just its shape and materials. In wind energy I tend to point to the Uprise Energy STAR (http://upriseenergy.com) and their blades. They are designed to slough off gusts, getting a little extra energy from them but dissipating the force. It's a trick the designer got from hydrofoils, which he also designed, which use intelligent shape and laminates to create specific flexing and torsional characteristics that just worked.

      A modern HAWT is probably as complex as the first gen Makani solution, once you factor in pitch control, yaw control, mast, blades, SCADA interfaces, sensors, gearbox, lubrication, etc. But they started out a lot more simply. A mast, some yaw mechanism, three blades, a gear box, a generator and some electrical wiring. Sometimes they fell over, some had to be lowered to the ground in high winds, etc. The gearbox has arguably gotten simpler. They've gotten stronger, taller and with greater swept area. At heart they retain that simplicity. All of the extra stuff is refinement on that fundamental simplicity.

      What's the simplest AWES possible that generates electricity reliably and without fuss, even if it falls over sometimes, or needs to be yanked down in a storm?

      Cheers,
      Mike

      On 2013-10-30, at 9:08 PM, Rod Read wrote:


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10492 From: Rod Read Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani assessment
      Simplest.. hmmm
      There's always a pay-off
      The simplest spinners don't need a large rigid ring at altitude ... but it helps.
      You could use a set of runners, guiding a tensed sail ring at altitude inside an arch but it's too complex.
      You can use a hub at altitude lifting a tilted wheel below even with a train of soft spinning rings... but there's weight aloft and awkward ground ring dynamics.

      For simplicity
      I'm tending toward some sort of x wind line running, self tacking on end limits (lifting a return side of a loop line too clears space below but takes more energy... avoid a loop or run it around perimeter of ground loop)

      or a mechanism which resets a plunge phase after a water lift phase distance has been exceeded... The advantage of water displacement being that you can lift all day in proportion to the force .. and if the wind drops system weight pulls air into the sail as it drops .. either a deep tall bag or a piston cart puller applies here.

      Do trade winds between mountain gaps count as AWE?.. A properly tensioned rail set... If I say laddermill there will be howls of disapproval.. We had a link to a Scandinavian tidal system recently (1/2 year ago ish) looked to be spinning happily.

      Maybe I'll write more after picking the kids up etc... get back to work


      Rod Read

      Windswept and Interesting Limited
      15a Aiginis
      Isle of Lewis
      HS2 0PB

      07899057227
      01851 870878



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10493 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: Makani assessment

      This is a great improvement over the previous seven years of unquestioning press Google-Makani coverage. There are many more inherent flaws in the architure not mentioned, but publicly documented by open-AWE. It would be nice to see more credit given to the many helpful sources in open-AWE circles that MikeB is using. 






      On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:58 AM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10494 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Abbas Rezaey's 10GW AWES Concept

       
      Are we still in touch with AbbasR? As found on the NASA AWE Forum, posted last year; perhaps we can get a public copy of his 10GW scheme hosted, if it is not already-


      Hi to all

         I am Abbas Rezaey, who received MS degree in power electric engineering from the Semnan University in Jan 2012 . I am impressed by your research about the Airborne Wind Energy to supply New York . There are few universities working on the Airborne Wind Energy Generation.

       I write to you in the hope of establishing a short or long-term scientific relationship via e-mail with you in writing of a journal. If you accept this cooperation, then the following paper will be sent to you. ..The title of my papers is:
         
      . Feasibility study of A 10GW high altitude wind energy generation station in New York State.
       
      In this respect, we will publish IT in an ISI journals in this month.

       If you cannot cooperate with me, I will appreciate you Join me in this field of science for distance-corporations.
       I hope my e-mail can mirror my enthusiasm to have cooperation with you in progress of the science.
       I am looking forward hearing from you.
       
      Best Regards,
      Abbas Rezaey
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10495 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !
      The only place I can think of where this might beat passive solar design for heating is for over-wintering near the poles.  It gets interesting as a way to feed a steam engine if it can be done economically.  The usual problem seems to be dealing with a corrosive substance with lousy heat transfer, so it needs a lot of area on the interface.  Progress in plastics and coatings may be the breakthrough needed.

      Bob

      On 30-Oct-13, at 7:40 AM, Gabor Dobos wrote:


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10496 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !
      ABENGOA is using heat-of-fusion, molten salt thermal storage located next to solar thermal power stations .  .  . a mixture of naturally occurring sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and potassium nitrate (KNO3) that melt at around 550-deg C with 36-BTU/lb (about 80-KJ/Kg).  
      ISENTROPIC ENERGY (UK) uses rechargeable geothermal energy . . . large pocket of high temperature and a large pocket of low temperature .  .   enough heat to generate superheated steam. Cost of thermal energy storage is very low.

      In Alberta, Canada .   . a geothermal pocket of water-saturated porous rock some 200-ft to 500-ft below ground surface is heated to about 80-deg C during summer, using concentrated solar thermal energy .  . . during winter, the stored thermal energy is used for interior heating of buildings (mid-winter temperature drops to -40 C (-40 F)). In many US and European cities, district heating is offered. The Alberta storage system is hot enough to power an Organic-Rankin-Cycle (ORC) engine .  .. similar to steam engine, using freon or ammonia.

      With regard to wind energy and thermal storage, wind energy can drive heat pumps to store massive amounts of heat underground. To achieve cost benefits, need to use a very massive volume/mass of very low-cost thermal storage material .  .  . and use the energy for heating buildings during cool weather.

      Gabor Dobos has provided some interesting material re thermal storage .  .  some of that material can be used in thermal storage tanks for electric vehicles, to provide interior heating during winter .  . . thanks Gabor.


      Harry


      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
      Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:45:50 -0600
      Subject: Re: [AWES] heat storage? YES !

       
      The only place I can think of where this might beat passive solar design for heating is for over-wintering near the poles.  It gets interesting as a way to feed a steam engine if it can be done economically.  The usual problem seems to be dealing with a corrosive substance with lousy heat transfer, so it needs a lot of area on the interface.  Progress in plastics and coatings may be the breakthrough needed.

      Bob

      On 30-Oct-13, at 7:40 AM, Gabor Dobos wrote:



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10497 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !
      This stuff does get better at utility-scale, with the square-cube law helping the insulation.  If wind energy is going for heat, it is surely better to run the heat pump in the summer, rather than using pumped hydro to run it in the winter.  Provided, of course, that losses in storage and distribution still encourage the capital outlay.  

      Re: vehicles - some of the high-density materials would be suitable for use in cars, to pre-warm them the next day, or to keep working RVs warm at night.  Most of the energy in motor fuel is deliberately wasted as heat, making it easy to collect.

      Bob

      On 30-Oct-13, at 2:11 PM, Harry Valentine wrote:


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10498 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: heat storage? YES !

      Hi Gabor,

      We need thermal storage material that is practical to use . .  . some of the materials you mention may provide excellent performance in terms of thermal storage, except that they need to be stored in extreme-strength pressure vessels with a corrosion resistant surface. 

      Materials such as NH3, CH3OH3 and CH4 are problematic to apply . .  .  requires ultra-high pressure tanks. H2 causes metal embrittlement. 

      Lithium melts at 179-deg C.

      A few years ago, Volkswagen did experiment with a PCM eutectic salt to keep an engine warm overnight.

      To operate a steam-based thermal energy storage system, such systems will use steel piping and steel changes mechanical properties near 600-C  .  . . critical to storage thermal energy below 600-C if steel piping is to be used.

      To operate a closed-cycle, externally-heated air-turbine engine, need minimum 1000-deg C to achieve any worthwhile thermal efficiency .  .  . material to be stored in ceramic material capable of 1400-deg C (silicon-nitride, silicon-carbide)


      For wind energy, there is much to be said for pumped-hydraulic energy storage, also compressed-air-energy-storage (CAES) .  . . especially the new generation adiabatic CAES that includes thermal storage. CAES is a large-scale technology .  . and will require large-scale thermal energy storage. Best bet may be to go to geothermal.


      Harry
       



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10499 From: dave santos Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Mike Barnard's surprising 10MW AWES Concept

       In his new Makani critique, MikeB does not seem to see cubic-mass scaling-law* as an inherent Makani AWES architectural limitation. In fact, based on an economy-of-scale assumption, he thinks going double the M5 5MW rated-power might work. 

      Call it the M10; quote-

           "...10 MW Makani offshore devices** might be the sweet spot..."

      Its encouraging that MikeB now thinks he maybe sees "sweet spots" for at least this one large AWES scheme. This is a real change-in-tune from his brief nomination as the "world's leading AWE skeptic". This latest Makani feasibility review is an obviously laudable lay-effort at aerospace critique (with much help from JoeF's provided sources), but does not seriously rival in comprehensiveness, nor in withering logic, six years of expert Forum design critiques on the same subject.

      -------------------------------------------------------------------
      *  Discorsi e dimostrazioni matematiche, intorno à due nuove scienze; Galileo Galilei; 1638
      ** 2x jumbo aerobatic autonomous offshore endur-ops E-VTOL flygen composite kiteplane AWES concept




      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10500 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/30/2013
      Subject: Re: A "Wright Brothers Moment" at the Texas AWE Encampment