Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                  AWES10247to10297 Page 102 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10247 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Encampment Report (Comparing NPW and OL Kites)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10248 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10249 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10250 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/27/2013
Subject: Lessons from the best

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10251 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10252 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10253 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Forget those videos Joe, This ones way better

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10254 From: Hardensoft International Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10255 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunker)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10257 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10258 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10259 From: Harry Valentine Date: 9/30/2013
Subject: Energy Storage technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10260 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Back Re: [AWES] Wind-Hull assisted ship (Yak) (10237)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10261 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10262 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10263 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10264 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10265 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10266 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10267 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10268 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10269 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10270 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10271 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10272 From: Hardensoft International Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10273 From: stephane rousson Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: News Endlessflyers (Francais, English )

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10274 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: Re: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10275 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: Re: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10277 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2013
Subject: Re: Exploring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10278 From: Rod Read Date: 10/5/2013
Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10279 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/5/2013
Subject: http://www.kitebot.org/home

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10280 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/5/2013
Subject: Re: http://www.kitebot.org/home

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10281 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/6/2013
Subject: Demonstrators indoor? Launch? Etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10282 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/7/2013
Subject: Re: Offshore submerged water turbine kite driven?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10283 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: http://www.kitebot.org/home

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10284 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10285 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10286 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: AWE Encampment Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10287 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10288 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10289 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Complexes having many HARFWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10290 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10291 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Large kite takes record?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10293 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Saul's Barrage Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10294 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Cody 160ger Zelle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10295 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
Subject: Re: Large kite takes record?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10296 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: Re: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10297 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: A guide to the logic of giant kites




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10247 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Encampment Report (Comparing NPW and OL Kites)

For the last few weeks, at the Texas AWE Encampment, we have been intensively flying kPower's single-skin power-kite quiver of three KiteShip OLs and five NASA Power Wings, ranging from 1.5 to 32 m2. If the sport parafoil is a racehorse, the NPW is a rhino, and the OL an elephant. Why these simple powerful wings are so overlooked in AWE is a mystery. They are "technical" to fly, which is kiter talk for "requires mastery" (yet small versions make good trainers).

Very light wind (3m/s, 5mph) is flyable by the 32m2 NPW, and a surprising power is evident by merely "going big".  The big NPW works wide in its window, sweeping with a deep unearthly moan, and will park overhead at a very high angle, proving high L/D in light wind by very low wind-loading by area. The biggest problem with this ten-year-old Dutch kite is poor bridling, a construction defect, where a bridle-line often hooks short over a stopper-knot, so the kite must be monitored for this. Even pieces of straw and small twigs can foul the lines. Bridles and lines have gotten far better in recent years, but fouling potential is still an issue. The remaining NPW litter of small to medium (1.5-7m2) NPWs are mostly Berlin street-kites, very well made. An unlabeled, maybe homemade, 2m2 NPW fills in the quiver.

By comparison with the NPW, the typical OL has only three lines, and no bridling, so line-handling is very easy. The utter cleanness of Dave Culp's design allows it to perform comparably (a bit slower, but even lighter) with the NPW. kPower has a ~15m2 OL made extra-strong byKiteShip, for high wind. A small KiteShip 3m2 developmental prototype OL has been flown for six years in mostly light wind. A mysterious four-line OL derivative turned up in kPower's jumbled storage (think King Tut's Tomb), never properly rigged nor flown; now its flying quite well. The four-line configuration seems suited as a pilot-hosted variable-wing concept.

Persistent calm (with brief gustiness) has prevailed lately, but the Fall weather pattern, with strong Northers (Winter frontal pattern) is setting up. The OL-NPW quiver is ready to drive the power machinery set in the field (A cool DIY hardware detail is the MegaBar, a control-bar made of heavy-duty steel hardware that is far stronger than any sport kite bar). The kites must overcome considerable starting and rolling friction (mostly due to cheap parts and crude details) to then make nominal crosswind power. As we await the big winds, the 32m2 wing at least allows us bursts of power in marginal "sucker wind". We are mostly flying at about 100ft AGL, as "scale-altitude".

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10248 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"
Rod,

Version Control for Cats is quite hard, but what really counts is for us to fully crystallize our thoughts, then we can tidy up. We don't need to repeat any settled AWE knowledge, nor throw rocks directly at bad ideas. Instead, how plainly and concisely can we present our key beliefs? I covered most of your points and added some in the text below. Further adding references, your best graphics, and some real-life pix would be a great package.

We could thus present our bare revolutionary premises to Miles, and invite him to question us Socratically; and see what emerges,

daveS



========== FAQ  (as informal working format) for Miles' Low-Complexity AWE Overview  =================


What exactly does Low-Complexity AWE stand for?

"Rag and String Only" aloft, excepting payload and the odd sensor or nav light. (lowest flying mass, highest power-to-mass). We are the masters of rope, low part count, high COTS. Inherent stabilities, inherent soft safety. Its phenomenological (empirical) and heuristic, with less numerical-simulation dependence. Strong embodied-logic and a human-pilotage assumption (based on FARs) means less complex-automation requirement. Low-Complexity means first-to-market, with less investment needed. It means both DIY and megascale solutions. It means open-source R&D by cloud-intelligence, without IP barriers.


Who are we?

Many of us come from aeronautical, aerospace, or similarly demanding engineering and science backgrounds. KIS our traditional mantra. Technical safety is our primary focus, with economic advantage as a welcome side-effect. We create and share AWE art in open circles. We are the few true domain masters, as well as a flood of eager novices.


Why is Low-Complexity AWE poised to dominate the early market?

FARs favor easier certification of low-mass low-velocity aircraft, even if novel. Our pilot-supervised automation is consistent with existing FARs. Certification of new high-performance High-Complexity aircraft operations and types takes many years. Low-Complexity AWE  R&D is so diverse and robust, its outpacing major direct investment, and should soon start to bootstrap sector growth from early revenue.


What neat tricks are in our bag?

Flexible anchor-fields enable kite arches and domes with far higher capacities, by land-airspace unit. Single-skin wings are dirt-cheap, able to earn fastest pay-back, for lowest capital and lifecycle engineering risk. Multi-tethers give failsafe breakaway. Human kite masters and pilots are, by far, the most practical and capable control basis. Pilot-kites and classic kite and rigging methods are basic cybernetic automation. Cascaded launching and landing of large arrays makes them manageable as a single control process. High-speed motion geometries drive groundgens at top efficiency. Motion constraint nets allow dense-packing of WECS arrays in limited space. Low-Complexity is the only gigawatt-scale single-unit AWES thinking. Driving legacy plants as kite-hybrids is possible, by mixing kite-harvested kinetic energy into plant shafting.


Why is Low-Complexity AWE essential?

Its the one AWES approach to plausibly address global terrawattage need within known fixed constraints of scaling laws, cost, space intensiveness, and so on. At small scale, Low-Complexity represents early AWE opportunity for the many, as rightful-work and clean-energy for a sustainable planet.





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10249 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/26/2013
Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"
  • CAT  clear air turbulence
  • CATS computational analysis of technical systems
  • CAT computer-aided translation, computer-assisted translation
  • CATS Computer Assisted Testing Service
  • CATS Cycles Analysis & Timeseries Software called CATS   
Requested:  Any other CATS attending AWES matters?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10250 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/27/2013
Subject: Lessons from the best

When Lowell North started designing sails, He knew a bit about aerodynamic shapes and fabric properties. He knew sail profiles needed to improve. He set about trying it.

His company North Sails still works as he left it. After testing and learning aerodynamic characteristics of all sailing components. They analyse predicted combined aerodynamic and rigging loads and deformations. Match materials to function. And test again. They’re exceptionally good at it

AWE open design schemes are starting on a similar path

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10251 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo
Dear PJ,
My sincere thanks and deep appreciation of your genuine efforts to see our two organizations – AWEConsortium (AWEC) and AWEIndustry Association (AWEIA) come together on common grounds.
While I serve as the President-protem of AWEIA today, my roots in AWE sprang from the KiteLab Group. That said, I maintain my distinct identity and personality from my respected friends, mentors and associates in particular Dave Santos and Joe Faust.
Let me now address the issues you raised in your mail item by item:

 
1.     In order to move forward and establish a professional working relationship between AWEC and AWEIA could we agree that both organizations will start with a fresh slate on which to write and that neither organization will rehash past disagreements, unhappiness and history before today?
Ans: There should be no need for either organization to rehash past disagreements, unhappiness and history before today IF we sincerely acknowledge them, address them squarely and settle them most amicably to the fair appreciation of all. Where this is not done, we would simply have invariably swept matters under the carpet only to have them stare us in the face again some other time.
 
2.     As you do not believe that AWEC represents the "one United Voice for ALL" in the AWE world, and since AWEC does is not, yet, sure whether to believe that AWEIA does either, could we agree that it is OK for the AWE world to have two voices on topics on which there might be differences between AWEIA's and AWEC's goals or opinions? 
 
(Yes, AWEC will be updating its website to remove the "single focused voice" and other related statements that imply that there is only one voice, along with other long overdue updates.)
 
Ans: Please recollect that AWEC through the organizers of Berlin AWE Conference came up with the objective of “One United Voice for ALL” which is indeed laudable and most desirable for a nascent industry such as Airborne Wind Energy. AWEIA remains open to transparent governance principles for due commitment to a possible emergent “Single AWE Voice”. Till then, it is only proper that AWEC without further delay updates its website to remove the "single focused voice" and other related statements that imply that there is only one voice.
 
3.     Could we all agree that AWES need access to airspace in order to be useful for the production of energy?
Ans: The answer to this is obvious - YES.
 
4.     Does AWEIA share all of Dave's opinions on access to airspace and how airspace would be accessed by AWE's, and if not, how does AWEIA's position differ from Dave's position?
Ans: Dave’s contribution to AWEIA as one of it’s founding team notwithstanding; Dave , as a veteran aeronautic roboticist is certainly no novice in aviation matters and to that extent, you will agree with me that his views should be well worth considering. Nonetheless, Airspace is governed by various International and National Laws which in my opinion leaves this matter to be best settled by the governing authorities of affected airspace. AWEIA will support opinions and options that best guarantee equity, cost-effectiveness and safety in unfettered access to much needed airspace.
 
5.     Does AWEIA favor the "low complexity AWES" for which Dave Santos advocates over other AWES such as the ones that, for example, Sky WindPower and Makani Power are building, and if not, is AWEIA agnostic to the type of technology and levels of complexity in design?
Ans: AWEIA as an association is neither agnostic nor favoristic to any type of technology or level of complexity in design. AWEIA is disposed to open testing of all ideas and concepts and to a cooperative approach of combining winning ideas from seemingly competitive/divergent Airborne Wind Energy Harvesting Schemes as much as possible.
 
6.     In order to find as much common ground on which to build a positive working relationship going forward, could you suggest additional points on which you believe that both AWEIA and AWEC do agree?
Ans: I am throwing this question open through the AWE Forum on Yahoo Groups for further contributions by all interested parties.
 
Please ask if you have questions for AWEC that could help identify other potential area of agreement and common purpose shared by the AWEIA and AWEC organizations. 
Ans: None for now, many thanks again.
 
John Oyebanji
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association
AWEIA International
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies Floor, 53 St. Finbarr's Road, Akoka-Yaba;
Lagos. Nigeria.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer and confidentiality note
This e-mail, its attachments and any rights attaching hereto are, and unless the content clearly indicates otherwise, remains the property of John Adeoye Oyebanji of Hardensoft International Limited, Lagos, Nigeria. 

It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.
Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10252 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo

I think you can both agree that since this was posted on an open forum  that there are many other voices in AWE and that sharing of information seems to be in everyone's best interests as demonstrated by AWEC's conference and our continuing open discussions.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10253 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2013
Subject: Forget those videos Joe, This ones way better
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10254 From: Hardensoft International Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE fo
Thanks Rod.
I can only hope the open posting has not displeased AWEC.
Lifts.
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji

From: <rod.read@gmail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: 28 Sep 2013 14:03:46 -0700
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] RE: RE: Making agreements between AWEC and AWEIA in order to move AWE forward

 

I think you can both agree that since this was posted on an open forum  that there are many other voices in AWE and that sharing of information seems to be in everyone's best interests as demonstrated by AWEC's conference and our continuing open discussions.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10255 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunker)
The author of an AIAA Megafly paper, Storm Dunker, also just contributed an admirable chapter on Ram-Air Wing Design to the Springer AWE book, as an AWE-oriented soft-wing expert.  He has career experience with leading canopy developers, but a new affiliation is A-Z Chuteworks, LLC, of Houston. 

This is some detailed thinking behind the Megafly, as shared by Storm-



Welcome to Storm! (Cc:ed)


Note: The Megafly system is the best similarity-case to our modular megascale Mothra Loadpath Arch tech. This paper allows us a good comparative view. Mothra tech is single-skin, and even more modular; but the economics, megascalability, performance envelopes, operational constraints, geometric-similarity, etc. are quite close.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke

His paper's "References"


References 

 Proceedings 

1 Bennett, T. W. and Fox, R. Jr., “Design, Development & Flight Testing of the NASA X-38 7,500 ft^2 Parafoil 

Recovery System,” AIAA Aerodynamic Decelerator Systems technology Conference and Seminar, AIAA 2003-

2107, 2003, pp. 60-77. 


WHICH paper is: 

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070012413_2007010959.pdf

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10257 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke

Noting one of the dissiliarities: 

Megafly kite line set go to a focus point. 

Mothra kite line set do not go to a focus point, but veer ever left and ever right for super yaw control. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10258 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2013
Subject: Re: Megafly Modular Parafoil Tech (AWES Forum Welcome to Storm Dunke
JoeF,

Its a good megascale comparative case, internal Mothra loadpaths v. Parafoil bridles; with predicted specific advantages for arch loadpaths to properly validate.

A synergistic solution is to have both tensile systems, and shift tension onto the central bridle briefly during weathercocking, loosing and resetting the arch loadpath foci around the anchor circle, with small actuation force (alternatively, the upwind-side can pull a downwind side into crosswind balance). We can also concentrate an airborne payload at a central bridle-point of a hybrid arch. An upcoming MonoMothra arch will have a payload bridle, and we must try weathercocking with it.

Kites have long been staked out by their bridles, as Dave Culp* points out. Giant soft kites often have the arch principle weakly in play by "staked out" taglines, with a central main tether/multibridle*. The tagline or bridle is quite common, but the arch loadpath idea has not been obvious to most experts in AWE, hidden in the sled, in plain sight,

daveS

CC BY NC SA
 

* add Okashi, Peters, Anders, Mueller, etc., to arch teacher list. Barrish, Jalbert, Rogallo, and so on, also figure in the prior art. 

** Lateral stabilizing taglines on kites are ancient.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10259 From: Harry Valentine Date: 9/30/2013
Subject: Energy Storage technology
Gentlemen,


An energy storage technology that may be of interest: 



Harry
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10260 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Back Re: [AWES] Wind-Hull assisted ship (Yak) (10237)

JoeF,

I am not sure to be right.Perhaps the hydroturbine can convert the whole power of the kite during crosswind figures.Indeed imagining anchor is the root,tether is the blade,kite is the tip of blade.Imagining the tether is quite stiff.The hydroturbine can convert the whole power,knowing its position beetween root and tip (making its speed lesser) is compensed by the density of water.The question is how it is in the real situation:momentum from hydroturbine,curve along the tether,real transmission...

PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10261 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology

Harry,

This is an interesting physics demonstration, but faces severe economic-scaling barriers. Very little potential energy is stored by a mass in a fluid near neutral buoyancy, so the storage unit would have to be huge for a useful power rating. The redundant storage here is the compressed-gas input.

Pumped-hydro is the current standard for gravity-based potential energy storage, and even a simple water-tower with a pump-turbine input-output would outperform the Hopper scheme, but still not not be economic to build. The Hopper device would lose power stirring the water around the moving mass, and also would need to recycle heat-of-compression.

We still enjoy pondering all these novel, if marginal, schemes :)

daveS








Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10262 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/1/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology
I still don't know if my answer can be read by anyone, but I share Dave views on this subject!


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10263 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited
mothra dynamic   by Rod Read,      2Oct 2013.        1:45


======Comment are invited=============


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10264 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: List of airborne wind energy organizations
Hi all,

I have started a page to list and compare airborne wind energy organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airborne_wind_energy_organizations

I am sure such a work was already done, but maybe not shared ?

1 - What do you think of the selection of information in the table?

2 - Can you complete the table or send me information (by mail) and reference to fill it?

I think this list can become huge, but with the filter it should be possible to sort the data.

I would like to make the same kind of table to compare as well the different prototypes (name, company, type, size, electric power output, number of tether, stable/unstable, ground or flygen, ground or flycontrol, nb flight hours)

Note: I was expecting information from AWEIA website but the page http://www.aweia.org/home/category/teams-and-companies/ is empty. Bug?


Thanks for your help

++
Baptiste


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10265 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10266 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10267 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

 


Attention all AWES orgs (way over 100): 
Get on your team someone to provide careful edits to the article, 
as the article starter seems to be riding over easy-fetch hype
rather than comprehensive explication.   Anyone may edit the article. 
Over 90% of AWE orgs are not in the first version of the article. 
Article starter attempted to aim at "main" orgs which is a subjective slant that 
could play into MP hands and Google hands ...again.   Don't let this happen
to your own organization (company, team, center, etc. )  Get somone on task 
to enter known entities into the article.   No one person owns the article. 
The article will go a good distance at information the world about AWE orgs. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10268 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10269 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10270 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

To date on the wiki by article starter: 


......
then two other visiting editors are contributing. 
Each org could do well to assign an editor to help in the main article as well in the articles TALK page, which see: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10271 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2013
Subject: Re: List of airborne wind energy organizations

 

For the aarticlei
Over 100 AWE orgs are invited to soon supply: 

Name
Site
Location
Workforce in org
Type of org
AWES method focus
Comment
Secondary or tertiary source URL...someone neutral talking about your organization. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10272 From: Hardensoft International Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: Re: Energy Storage technology
Did I miss your due welcome to the AWES open forum, Labat?
DaveS' strident voice akin to that of John the baptist in the Judean wilderness is well worth heeding by discerning investors in the Airborne Wind Energy field.
Further lifts,
JohnO
President-protem, AWEIA
www.aweia.org
John Adeoye Oyebanji
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10273 From: stephane rousson Date: 10/3/2013
Subject: News Endlessflyers (Francais, English )
Attachments :
    Voici les news ( Pdf ), Here is the News ( Pdf )

    also, 2 videos :

    le film de ma traversée en ballon :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzjV-fiDGM0



    --
    Stephane Rousson
    0033(0)603838276


     



      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10274 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2013
    Subject: Re: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited

     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10275 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2013
    Subject: Re: mothra dynamic: Comments are invited

    Rod furthers on topic: 


    mothra alternate foot rise mode  by Rod Read,  3Oct2013        0:19



    Comments are invited. 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10277 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2013
    Subject: Re: Exploring
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10278 From: Rod Read Date: 10/5/2013
    Subject: Re: Miles Loyd- "Where the Opportunities Are"
    I think the timing for our opportunity is correct..
    Large volumes of capital are overdue being directed to empowering innovations
    The trick is, our audience needs to be correct too.
    Persuading the ambition of networked capitalist society is our real challenge.
    Crystallising our combined ideas into a palatable media is our tool.

    Can a proof video from this message be included? I may work on that as a drawing soon otherwise.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10279 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/5/2013
    Subject: http://www.kitebot.org/home
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10280 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/5/2013
    Subject: Re: http://www.kitebot.org/home
    This is a test of the new format of the group. 
    Sending out of Gmail with an image showing. 
    The original post did not show the image online; 
    however, the image did show in the emailed copy of the online message. 
    Now, I send back the message using Gmail with image showing below. 
    The test hope is to see the image showing online.  But the image might not show. 



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10281 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/6/2013
    Subject: Demonstrators indoor? Launch? Etc.
    Induced air displacement control of flying objects
    US 3603537 A

    Publication numberUS3603537 A
    Publication typeGrant
    Publication dateSep 7, 1971
    Filing dateSep 2, 1969
    Priority dateSep 2, 1969
    InventorsBurke Richard JLissaman Peter B S
    Original AssigneeLissaman Peter B SBurke Richard J
    External Links: USPTOUSPTO AssignmentEspacenet

    • Have artificial wind to launch an AWES or kite-energy system.    
    • Indoor demonstration of AWES or kite-energy systems?
    • School demonstrations?
    • Model AWES?
    • Advertising?
    • Show and tell ... to investors?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10282 From: benhaiemp Date: 10/7/2013
    Subject: Re: Offshore submerged water turbine kite driven?

     There were some discussions about this interesting solution from JoeF 

    by soon and before.Now with www.minesto.com/  (cited by DaveS about another post) this solution can be implemented.Indeed the hydroturbine works "crosswater" (crosswind) and its motion would be the same with a kite working crosswind.
     
    So for a more complete examen, can we answer on this (and other) points:
    * Can the hydroturbine convert all the power on kite? (for example with anchor and hydroturbine at 1/3 and kite at 3/3)
    * Can an expert (DaveL,or Cristopher Carlin or BobS) make a quick analysis of forces from the kite in rapport with hydroturbine,knowing the hydroturbine moves in parallel with the kite,and not + or - in its direction as usually?
     
    Thanks,
     
    PierreB

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10283 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: http://www.kitebot.org/home


    KiteBot is a great representative of the emerging DIY AWE movement. Jeremy Calvert is doing an exceptional job focusing on mechanical simplicity as essential for sound automation, and is converging many trends seen in open circles (like high-COTS content). He coined the term "Low Complexity" to identify us as a movement in AWE

    The mission page linked below is a close match to the Kite Power Coop, KiteLab Group, VisVentis, WPI, and so on. Jeremy has been a friend for a few years in WA state (Seattle, Ilwaco), and we recently discussed cast concrete flywheels, which KiteLab made last year, and now we see new KiteBot versions even better, in leap-frog progress. I hope Rod can "sign" KiteBot formally into the Coop, with much shared integrated design work to come.


     




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10284 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)
    Welcome to Airborne Wind Energy, Hilary, from the AWES Forum (Airborne Wind Energy Systems).


    Note that we intentionally design airfoil quasi-tethers to oscillate (in "dynamic stability"), as wind energy harvesters. Its quite hard to fair and stabilize an airborne tether without too much added weight, complexity, and cost. As you note in your video linked below, tether dynamics are quite amazing, and we almost daily experience weird new effects in our quest.

    Our top tether dynamicist, Dave Lang finally has some serious competition-
     



    attn: JoeF, please process Hilary's presence in AWE for us, and provide her a window into our growing tether knowledge-base.



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10285 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: New Tether Dynamicist at Cambridge (Welcome Hilary Costello)

    Welcome Hilary Costello
    and team
    Richard Shaw and Prof. Hugh Hunt: 

    http://www.energykitesystems.net/HiliaryCostello/index.html

    which page has links and notes to related matters. 


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10286 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: AWE Encampment Update

    At the kPower kite farm near Austin, we are now making power with the two latest goundgen machines, by fits and starts. There was no single magic moment as we waited for better wind, bought larger kites, and worked out many small bugs. At first the transmissions, generators, and flywheels barely bulged. Day-by-day they began to creak, then whine; and now they scream. Things broke here and there, to be replaced with more robust versions. For example; the HQ kitebar in the Pilot Station snapped like a matchstick, and was replaced by an invincible steel beam (MegaBar). Basic pilotage is happily easy, but top performance requires skill. 

    The crosswind cableway is serving multiple roles, from hosting high-velocity carriage loads, to allowing multiple workcells along its length. We are flying a large quiver of power-kites of every major type, and they all work. A kite-quiver seems key to operationally matching wind conditions to loads. A 7m2 NPW in a gust threw one of the massive flywheel-generator units like a child's toy. A crude guess* is that we are playing with 10-20kW of raw mechanical power in modest breezes, with perhaps half of that as the potential electrical output. Efficiency is where you look for it- our median power kite in its bag is the size and weight of a loaf of bread, and our capital cost (cost per installed watt) is a tiny fraction of competitors like Makani. Seven years working with toy-scale AWES is paying off.

    The next step is to add our miniature smart-grid load of sound and music for AWEfest use (max electrical loading so far is to briefly short the generator). We have had bad luck with cameras (a Nikon got lost in the tall grass when the groundgen broke loose next to the photographer, and the backup Cannon's memory card somehow unformatted), but there is confidence that the video will only get better when Chase (AWE Documentary) shows up to record the progress. Larger more advanced machines are in the shop network pipeline, so ongoing progress toward AWEfest in NYC seems secure.

    The kite farm is open to AWE testing by anyone who has experiments pending. We are even thinking to buy the property, with its two nice houses and extensive shop spaces. Unlike most AWE investment, this farm near Austin is a tangible asset in a rising real-estate market, a nice hedge against high venture-risk. Let us (kPower) know if this unique AWE test-site R&D opportunity interests you.


    * We may build us a de Prony Brake, despite Doug's warning :)


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10287 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Update
    5kW to 10kW of steady electrical output sounds good



    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: santos137@yahoo.com
    Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:05:34 -0700
    Subject: [AWES] AWE Encampment Update

     


    At the kPower kite farm near Austin, we are now making power with the two latest goundgen machines, by fits and starts. There was no single magic moment as we waited for better wind, bought larger kites, and worked out many small bugs. At first the transmissions, generators, and flywheels barely bulged. Day-by-day they began to creak, then whine; and now they scream. Things broke here and there, to be replaced with more robust versions. For example; the HQ kitebar in the Pilot Station snapped like a matchstick, and was replaced by an invincible steel beam (MegaBar). Basic pilotage is happily easy, but top performance requires skill. 

    The crosswind cableway is serving multiple roles, from hosting high-velocity carriage loads, to allowing multiple workcells along its length. We are flying a large quiver of power-kites of every major type, and they all work. A kite-quiver seems key to operationally matching wind conditions to loads. A 7m2 NPW in a gust threw one of the massive flywheel-generator units like a child's toy. A crude guess* is that we are playing with 10-20kW of raw mechanical power in modest breezes, with perhaps half of that as the potential electrical output. Efficiency is where you look for it- our median power kite in its bag is the size and weight of a loaf of bread, and our capital cost (cost per installed watt) is a tiny fraction of competitors like Makani. Seven years working with toy-scale AWES is paying off.

    The next step is to add our miniature smart-grid load of sound and music for AWEfest use (max electrical loading so far is to briefly short the generator). We have had bad luck with cameras (a Nikon got lost in the tall grass when the groundgen broke loose next to the photographer, and the backup Cannon's memory card somehow unformatted), but there is confidence that the video will only get better when Chase (AWE Documentary) shows up to record the progress. Larger more advanced machines are in the shop network pipeline, so ongoing progress toward AWEfest in NYC seems secure.

    The kite farm is open to AWE testing by anyone who has experiments pending. We are even thinking to buy the property, with its two nice houses and extensive shop spaces. Unlike most AWE investment, this farm near Austin is a tangible asset in a rising real-estate market, a nice hedge against high venture-risk. Let us (kPower) know if this unique AWE test-site R&D opportunity interests you.


    * We may build us a de Prony Brake, despite Doug's warning :)



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10288 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Update
    Harry wrote-

        "5kW to 10kW of steady electrical output sounds good"


    Perhaps our biggest coup is that we are making Crosswind Power without reeling the kite, nor a long retract phase. Our initial flywheels do slow quite a bit between the short power strokes, so the power is only partly smoothed. Nevertheless, its clear that quasi-steady output from a single kite unit is not so hard or expensive as many suppose. 

    We could use more massive flywheels, for even steadier power, at small added cost. There is an emergent trade-off to "kick-start" larger flywheels (and overcome overall starting-friction), perhaps by motoring the generator briefly.
     




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10289 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Complexes having many HARFWT
    Complexes having many high aspect-ratio flip-wing tethers (HARFWT): 

    License: CC BY NC SA

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10290 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case
     Drag force is under-appreciated. A basic drogue, we see now, develops a self-canceling radial lift to stretch itself crosswind. Loyd did not despise drag-power. Decelerator tech is popping up in new applications; one set of keywords include-

    running parachute
    gym chute
    workput parachute



    Another new chute app is the play parachute, for groups in a circle to manipulate, a bit like an Inuit "trampoline", but more billowy; a sort of playsail. This has been widely done since the sixties with surplus parachutes, but now play parachutes are specially made.



    The obvious persistence of the parachute drogue in aerospace, and its surprising new uses, suggest we are not done with it as a WECS object.  We recall Guangdong High-Altitude WindPower Technology Ltd.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10291 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case



    Only an ideal parachute sustains exactly L/D of zero; else in the real world parachutes almost never sit on zero L/D, but rather kite, even if with oscillations on both sides of zero.  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Large kite takes record?

    Chinese Fly World's Largest Kite:
    Octopus-shaped kite beats world record

    Short video. 
    I guess the Kuwait Flag has been put into second place. 


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10293 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Saul's Barrage Kite
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10294 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Cody 160ger Zelle
    Cody 160ger Zelle 


    Replica, video
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10295 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2013
    Subject: Re: Large kite takes record?
    Peter Lynn's later Manta Ray is bigger than his flag kites, and looks far bigger than this Octopus (ironically a Lynn copycat design, if not by him). Its record claim may be based on some narrow criteria, like counting tail area (which Lynn abhors). Guinness has been reported to no longer maintain its own kite record rules, depending on third-party criteria. Of course we know Osborne's giant 1983 parafoil to be the real record, but never formally claimed to Guinness, since it killed Eidiken  :(

    A Mothra is loosely planned to break all size records, opportunity permitting (maybe for AWEfest). We have about half the rope and tarps needed, recycling earlier versions (two large mono-Mothras are current projects).


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10296 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
    Subject: Re: New parachute sports and the AWES decelerator heuristic case

     Play parachutes are amazing fun...

    But what really surprised me when playing with one was the dome ...

    20 kids grab the edge of the parachute lift it over their heads and walk inward. . .

    Pulling the parachute over their head sitting on the edge inside an inflated dome is fun...

    But weirdly it stays inflated and stays inflated for ages...

    Long enough for all 20 kids to swap sides with their partner and other games besides.



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10297 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
    Subject: A guide to the logic of giant kites
    I have written and published an article explaining the reasoning of giant arch kites.
    This is your chance for editorial before the article gets distributed more broadly.

    The logic of giant kites

    Wind power is viable, only, without towers.

    Wind carries hundreds of times the total human energy demand. To mine it, standard turbines would require impossible amounts of steel and concrete.

    A new power race has begun.

    Squadrons of kite machines prepare to battle for dominance in air power.



    Kites to harvest the sustainable power we crave.

    Kites are powerful. So powerful that Americas Cup yachting banned them. Pulling one yacht is easy. How can you pull enough power for cities and cars?

    Wind power comes from how much air you move through. Large, fast wings are the design goal for airborne wind energy (AWE) engineers.

    Mechanical power is how quick, hard and far you move things. Link a strong fast pull to a generator that gives you power.

    Some proposed designs are over 1km wide. Others have flying turbines whose tips travel at close to the speed of sound. The power is all there.

    Large, fast, lightweight AWE machines have really arrived.



    The battleground

    Contenders for AWE dominance face obvious challenges. Kites are hard to control. Large air-plane wings are expensive and heavy. Land and airspace is limited. The standard rules of aviation airspace apply.

    The appeal of AWE lead engineering teams to surprisingly varied solutions.

    As well as the design war, a propaganda war has now begun. Well resourced government and corporate teams spar against university spin off's, charities and open network teams.

    Weaker designs will fall on the way. Gentlemen (and lady financiers), it's time to place your bets on the winning architecture.



    Scoring

    Successful engineering is measured by growth rate and return on investment. History is littered with dead engineering ventures that came so far and so close. Previous lessons make this battle all the more intriguing.

    Adrian Gambier (Frauhofer Institute of Wind Energy) says that complexity grids and RAMS (Reliability, Availability, Maintainability, Safety) dependability studies are key to spotting winners early.



    The teams

    Small networked teams like Kpower and Kite Power Cooperative, claim to hit these dependability metrics square on using new massive soft kite forms. But they seem committed to testing novel ideas before seeking funding.

    Makani Power, sponsored by Google and ARPA-e may seem the riskiest design of the bunch. A robotic rigid wing with dual mode propeller / turbine blades generates at altitude. But the Makani wing only flies in circles to generate.

    Ampyx Power from The Netherlands also use a fast rigid wing. Ampyx have grown beyond initial funding stages. They now raise capital on their own website. Sleek control and generation demonstrations have helped.

    Many more design teams are competing, and like Ampyx using the “yo-yo” method. In yo-yo standard kites fly across the wind pulling their tether from a generator drum on the ground. After generation the kite is wound back in.



    Why do they risk it?

    It's certainly not all money and power.

    Existing turbine dynamics were already highly optimised but barely touched at atmospheric energy. Radical changes were needed to reach the stronger high altitude wind energy. Oddly kite power has ancient history.

    Kites are also fun of course, but now, maybe even necessary.

    The winning design can hopefully save the world from an energy and global warming crisis.



    Coming clean

    That was my best objective view of AWE. I admit, I am heavily involved in Kite Power Cooperative. Generally speaking AWE scientists and engineers are a friendly lot. We recently shared research data at conference.

    But business is business. Get it right first time.

    My job is; hopefully save the world from an energy and global warming crisis. It's an odd remit. So I'm going to tell you exactly how I intend to go about it.

    It's new, it's scary and web-like. That description applies to the machine solutions and the team dynamic.

    Open Hardware

    All Kite Power Cooperative IP & designs are available as open source hardware. This way, designs are open to scrutiny and continuously improved by expert online forums. Anybody can use our designs under the creative commons 3.0 license. We ask that you feedback and care for the community you affect.

    Our designs are simple, fail-safe, scalable, inherently self controlled, with low embodied energy. They are insurable, locally empowering and beautiful.

    If I do say so myself...

    Cooperative teams

    Cooperatives are uncompromising in aspiration. We have a common goal. Environmentally and ethically sound energy security. Our design motives are pure, untouched by shareholder concerns.

    Members are eager to do their bit. Please feel welcome to join.

    This article is in part, a call to anyone who can help create better solutions.

    Giant kites are scary.

    Absolutely they are. Our designs are primarily crafted for safety.

    Arch kite systems connect to the earth at multiple points. This prevents catastrophic single point failures.

    Huge power is implicit in our designs, so we use proven principles from harsh marine environments. Many of our arch designs resemble trawler fishing nets. These designs can be inverted to work in tidal flows.

    Water is 800 times denser than air. Rope and fishing nets, have survived and evolved through centuries of marine testing.

    Arch kites can be launched with strict multi stage control bridling. This way gusts are not able to move huge architectures beyond human control.

    Working with the earth

    We are the only team using the earth itself as a main component. By staking arch kites to the ground in multiple locations we can be confident of yaw stability and fail-safe modes of our kites.

    Leading edge integrity is another advantage of multiple ground contact points. Tensioned crosswind load lines ensure that our sails present a smooth profile.

    Tensioned arch systems are material efficient. So we can build giant kites with low flying weight. This returns the best power to weight ratio of any design.

    Arches only “fly” multi tethered lightweight tensile ropes and fabrics. Arch kites are therefore more dependable and safer in the air. That's important for certification and insurance.

    Efficient land and air use

    Arch kites are held across the wind. They fill an area of sky with sails. An arch kite therefore engages with more moving air in any given second than faster designs. So for the same land footprint an arch kite can generate more power than a standard kite.

    Arches are low-complexity devices and use off the shelf materials.

    Modern Dyneema® rope has amazing strength. It floats on water. Ropes can transmit power more efficiently than electricity lines and oil pipelines.

    Generators are more efficient when they are big. And less deadly when they are on the land. Arch ropes, bridles and load-paths have been ganged to work together. Pulling generators round in both flight phases unlike yo-yo designs.



    Team flexibility

    How many TED talks, tell you to do what you love?

    Kite Power Cooperative and other open source teams do just that. Business development works are discussed and issued openly and cooperatively, but personal motivations and inspiration usually take top priority.

    I've been playing in the wind ever since I was born in a storm on the equinox.

    We'll get around to raising cash soon.

    One current group priority is redressing publication bias. A book on AWE by Airborne Wind Energy Consortium (AWEC) was published by springer. The book made no mention of low-complexity or open source architectures.

    So today I'm working on that. The forum will edit this article for me tonight.



    Ahead of the curve

    Open source hardware (like software) relies on being better. It is built with passion for an optimum outcome. Being open from the start allows us to prioritise our IP artworks and openly find support networks.

    Cooperatives are some of the biggest businesses on the planet. Businesses with a social structure survive market fluctuation.

    Keep your eye out for giant kite structures.

    Coming soon.



    Roderick Read,

    Windswept and Interesting Ltd

    for Kite Power Coop